More complete games than wins?! (It’s not only possible–it used to be commonplace)

Bob Gibson finished his career with 255 complete games and 251 wins / Icon SMI

Back in the old days of baseball, pitchers complete most games that they started. In 1904, for example, 88% of games started ended up as complete games. That means that lots of pitchers registered plenty of complete game losses.

As a result, there are lost of pitchers who ended up with more career complete games than wins (thanks to all those complete games losses.)

Here are the top 20 pitchers (1900-present) with more complete games than wins, ranked my most career complete games:

Rk	Player	CG	W	From	To	G	GS	L
1	Walter Johnson	531	417	1907	1927	802	666	279
2	Pete Alexander	437	373	1911	1930	696	600	208
3	Christy Mathewson	434	373	1901	1916	630	551	185
4	Eddie Plank	410	326	1901	1917	623	529	194
5	Warren Spahn	382	363	1942	1965	750	665	245
6	Ted Lyons	356	260	1923	1946	594	484	230
7	George Mullin	353	228	1902	1915	487	428	196
8	Red Ruffing	335	273	1924	1947	624	538	225
9	Cy Young	331	225	1901	1911	401	369	146
10	Burleigh Grimes	314	270	1916	1934	616	497	212
11	Robin Roberts	305	286	1948	1966	676	609	245
12	Vic Willis	302	187	1901	1910	399	366	167
13	Jack Powell	294	167	1901	1912	423	369	194
14	Eppa Rixey	290	266	1912	1933	692	554	251
15	Bob Feller	279	266	1936	1956	570	484	162
16	Wilbur Cooper	279	216	1912	1926	517	406	178
17	Bill Donovan	279	182	1901	1918	351	314	129
18	Red Faber	273	254	1914	1933	669	483	213
19	Mordecai Brown	271	239	1903	1916	481	332	130
20	Doc White	262	189	1901	1913	427	363	156

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/12/2012.

As you can see, a lot of these guys are from way, way back. If we limit the list to just guys who pitched at least one season as recently as 1960, here’s the new list:

Rk	Player	CG ▾	W	From	To	G	GS	L
1	Warren Spahn	382	363	1942	1965	750	665	245
2	Robin Roberts	305	286	1948	1966	676	609	245
3	Bob Gibson	255	251	1959	1975	528	482	174
4	Juan Marichal	244	243	1960	1975	471	457	142
5	Ned Garver	153	129	1948	1961	402	330	157
6	Rick Langford	85	73	1976	1986	260	196	106
7	Mark Fidrych	34	29	1976	1980	58	56	19
8	Jay Hook	30	29	1957	1964	160	112	62
9	Herb Moford	6	5	1955	1962	50	14	13
10	Steve Barr	4	3	1974	1976	24	13	7
11	Gary Ryerson	4	3	1972	1973	29	18	9
12	Bob Meyer	3	2	1964	1970	38	18	12
13	Rafael Novoa	2	0	1990	1993	22	9	4
14	Jay Pettibone	1	0	1983	1983	4	4	4
15	Jack Jenkins	1	0	1962	1969	8	3	3

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/12/2012.

Yeah, it doesn’t happen much anymore. The CG-loss is a pretty rare bird, certainly far rarer than the non-CG win, so guys just don’t do it much anymore.

How about these guys–those most recent pitchers to have a season with more CGs than wins:

Rk	Player	Year	CG	W	G	GS	L
1	Gil Meche	2010	1	0	20	9	5
2	Jamey Wright	2003	2	1	4	4	2
3	Jason Standridge	2003	1	0	8	7	5
4	Jim Parque	2001	1	0	5	5	3
5	Rafael Novoa	1993	2	0	15	7	3
6	Bill Wegman	1993	5	4	20	18	14
7	Eric Hillman	1993	3	2	27	22	9
8	John Cummings	1993	1	0	10	8	6
9	Matt Young	1992	1	0	28	8	4
10	Rod Nichols	1991	3	2	31	16	11
11	Mike Birkbeck	1989	1	0	9	9	4
12	Mike Maddux	1989	2	1	16	4	3
13	Jack Morris	1989	10	6	24	24	14
14	Chris Bosio	1988	9	7	38	22	15
15	Mike Morgan	1988	2	1	22	10	6
16	Rod Nichols	1988	3	1	11	10	7
17	Dan Petry	1988	4	3	22	22	9
18	Walt Terrell	1988	11	7	29	29	16
19	Bobby Witt	1988	13	8	22	22	10
20	Greg Swindell	1987	4	3	16	15	8
21	Mike Moore	1987	12	9	33	33	19
22	Danny Jackson	1987	11	9	36	34	18
23	John Butcher	1986	2	1	29	18	8
24	Tom Candiotti	1986	17	16	36	34	12
25	Lee Guetterman	1986	1	0	41	4	4

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/12/2012.

Jack Morris in 1989 is the last guy to have double-digit complete games but fewer wins.

This feat has gotten rarer and rarer, but might become a bit more common if the pitching trends of the last few years continue.

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Dr. Doom

12 years ago

I had no idea there were guys pitching in the 80s for whom his was true (if we exclude the single-digit-CG guys). That’s incredible. My first guess would have been that Warren Spahn was the last player to have a career like this, but then I saw the picture of Bob Gibson and thought, “Surely, he must be the most recent.” I was wrong. You learn something new every day, I guess. Especially on HHS. 🙂

Doug

12 years ago

Fergie Jenkins would have made the career list if he had retired after his age 37 season in 1980.

Jenkins had CG >= W in 10 of 11 seasons from 1967 to 1977, with 205 Wins and 221 CGs for that period.

Doug

12 years ago

Rick Langford, #6 on the post-1960 career list, compiled 21 more CGs than Wins in only a four-year period (1979-1982), with a 54-54 W-L and 75 CGs in 117 starts.

All that work took its toll. After 1982 (his age 30 season), Langford had only 23 more starts in his career, with zero CGs.

Dr. Doom

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

I noticed that, too. Does anyone know what happened following the 1982 season? Was there an injury, or was it just wear-and-tear? I mean, the 12.15 ERA in 7 starts is REALLY bad. How does that happen to a guy who was a pretty decent pitcher beforehand?

Also interesting is that, while he had 75 of his CG in just a four-year period, all 85 of his CG were in a six-year period (199/260 total games pitched). In the other 61 games of his career, he had none (that would be 24/196 starts). Interesting career.

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I think it was overwork.

Oakland had the same 5 starters (Langford, McCatty, Keough, Norris, Kingman) 4 years running (1979-82) and they compiled CG totals of 37, 93, 59 and 38 in those years, the last 3 years under manager Billy Martin.

In 1979, they were aged 23, 24, 24, 25 and 27. Yet, all were out of the majors after the 1986 season, and two were gone after 1983.

Dr. Doom

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

Holy cow! I knew Martin had that reputation with pitching staffs, but knocking a bunch of 20-somethings out of the majors that quickly almost takes purpose. I mean, even Mulder/Hudson/Zito have managed longer careers than that.

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

I think most people trace it to 1980, Martin’s first year with the A’s. He increased the workload of all 5 starters, some of them substantially. Here are the increases from the prior year for each of them: Langford: 218.2 IP to 290 IP Norris: 146.1 IP to 284.1 IP Keough: 176.2 IP to 250 IP McCatty: 185.2 IP to 221.2 IP Kingman: 111.2 IP to 211.1 IP All five pitchers were fairly young at the time, between 24-28. I think this is where the notion that you should limit the total innings and the year-to-year increase for young pitchers… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Ed

Tangent — Can anyone make sense of Rick Langford’s bWAR progression? 1978 — 176 IP, 106 ERA+ = 2.5 WAR 1979 — 219 IP, 95 ERA+ = 4.1 WAR 1980 — 290 IP, 116 ERA+ = 2.6 WAR 1981 — 195 IP, 116 ERA+ = 0.8 WAR 1982 — 237 IP, 92 ERA+ = 1.1 WAR How the fudge does he get 4.1 WAR for 1979, with a 95 ERA+? That’s the worst ERA+ for any pitcher with 2+ WAR that year. And how can 1980 be worth just 2.6 WAR, with 290 IP and a solid 116 ERA+? I… Read more »

Dr. Doom

12 years ago

Reply to Ed

I would imagine defense was a huge part of it. a 215 run swing is pretty dern big. It does look odd, though. You’d think 290 IP alone, even at a 100 ERA+, would be worth 3-4 WAR. Maybe that’s just me, though.

12 years ago

Reply to Ed

For comparisons sake, fangraphs has Langford at 2.9 WAR for 1979 and 3.3 for 1980.

kds

12 years ago

Reply to Ed

(I’m replying to JA @19, but I don’t have a reply button.)
He pitched about 15% of the A’s innings in ’79 and 20% in ’80. So that adds about 18 runs to replacement level over an average defense in ’79 and subtracts 20 runs in ’80. So, yeah it is mostly defense.

MikeD

12 years ago

Reply to Ed

Reviewing Langford’s 1980 season, Martin almost duplicated Hunter’s 300/30+ season. Langford finshed with 290 innings and 28 complete game.

Langford’s 80/81 seasons under Martin can be compared to Hunter’s 75/76 seasons under Martin. Heavy workload, and both collapsed in the following seasons, ’82 and ’77. Hunter had much heavier innings in prior seasons, but I believe it was the peak workloads that no doubt damaged their arms.

Both careers were effectively over by the time they reached 30, or very shortly thereafter.

MikeD

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

I’m pretty sure Martin ended Catfish Hunter’s career. In 1975, Hunter became the first pitcher in more than a generation to pitch over 300 innings and complete 30 games in a season. Bob Feller had been the last. In fairness (in spreading the blame), Martin took over as Hunter’s manager midway through that season, replacing Bill Virdon, but it was Martin who rode Hunter hard down the stretch as the innings were mounting, so he deserves the majority of the blame. Looking back at Hunter’s gamelogs August forward, it’s just insane, even for the period, as the Yankees were out… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to MikeD

“Hunter became the first pitcher in more than a generation to pitch over 300 innings and complete 30 games in a season. Bob Feller had been the last.” Mike, there were 4 other pitcher between Feller and Hunter who had 300+ IP and 30+ CG in a season: — Robin Roberts, 1952-53 (age 25-26) — Juan Marichal, 1968 (age 30) — Fergie Jenkins, 1971 (age 28) — Steve Carlton, 1972 (age 27) After those seasons: — After ’52, Roberts had an even bigger year in ’53, then averaged 23 wins, 28 CG, 313 IP and a 128 ERA+ for 1954-55.… Read more »

MikeD

12 years ago

Reply to MikeD

John, thanks, you are correct. That’s a stat that I didn’t check since I had it firmly locked in my mind as correct for more than 25 years. The correct statement is that Hunter was the first American League pitcher in more than a generation (since 1946) to pitch over 300 innings and complete 30 games. That statement alone is still saying something. Yet the convenience of the 300/30 isn’t quite the point, but more an indicator of the substantial workload Hunter was under that season and at that point in his career. He pitched a career high 328 innings… Read more »

Doug

12 years ago

Interesting breakdown by decade.

CG >= W in 20 win seasons.

1950-59, 23 times, Spahn (7), Roberts (6)
1960-69, 16 times, Marichal (5), Jenkins (3), Gibson (3)
1970-79: 31 times, Jenkins (4), Palmer (4), Perry (3)
1980-89: 3 times, last by Guidry and Morris in 1983

Chris

12 years ago

A bit off topic but I’ve never seen this addressed. Everyone loves to mention the good ole days when starters pitched complete games – but is it possible that those pitchers were less effective late than a reliever would have been? Isn’t is possible that having starters pitch 6 innings and turning it over to the bullpen is a more effective strategy?

Andy

12 years ago

Reply to Chris

Chris, I don’t think there’s any question that using relievers is more effective, which is why MLB gradually shifted that way. It’s quite possible that today we see an over-adjustment, in terms of too many relievers being used, starters not used to pitching deep enough, etc., but in general I think it’s clear that the optimal usage is to have at least one reliever available.

Jason Winter

12 years ago

Reply to Andy

I’ve often thought the same thing, and a snapshot look at older seasons seems to bear it out, at least going back a few decades: 2011 SP: .731 OPS 2011 RP: .696 1991 SP: .713 1991 RP: .697 1971 SP: .681 1971 RP: .683 1951 SP: .712 1951 RP: .714 So it looks like somewhere between 1971 and 1991 was when relievers started getting “better” than starters, which is probably about what conventional thinking would have given us. I’m too lazy to look at every year, but it sure seems like it would make for a nifty chart 🙂 (if… Read more »

Dr. Doom

12 years ago

Reply to Jason Winter

Of course, the way a bullpen is constructed now is completely different than in the 1950s. In the ’50s, you didn’t have a “relief ace” (certainly not more than one) whose only job it was to pitch in relief. Most relievers were failed starters or soon-to-be starters. You didn’t get into baseball with the intention that you’d be a reliever. A lot of guys now, though, know they’re going to be relievers from day 1, and that’s exactly how they end up. Plus, if a guy showed promise in the ‘pen in the 1950s, he’d become a starter. If he… Read more »

Author

Andy

12 years ago

Reply to Jason Winter

There’s an important usage bias to keep in mind. Before the 1970s, relievers were often mop-up guys and the worst pitchers on the staff. It’s not surprising that they were hit harder than the starters. It was only in the 1970s that it became commonplace to intentionally have one or more good relievers on the team to use for just that purpose. So your numbers probably reflect more about how teams distributed talent than relievers actually just getting better on their own.

Editor

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Andy

Andy, I would date the practice to the late ’50s. It’s hard to get a clear reading on a team’s “purpose” for a given pitcher, just from the stats. So I based my search on results instead — pitchers with 40+ games in relief and an ERA+ of at least 120. No season had more than 7 such pitchers until 1955, with 11. From 1959 onward, the number of such pitchers was always at least half the number of teams in MLB. The number of such pitchers reached an average of 1 per team in the ’60s, hit 2 per… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Chris

Chris, I think everyone who’s given it serious thought accepts that a fresh reliever is usually more effective than the SP would be in the 8th and 9th innings.

The debate is on whether modern strategies optimize the potential gains from relief pitching.

Lawrence Azrin

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

John A., This is a perfect example of the official adoption of a stat (Saves) influencing strategy. “Saves” were created as a separate category in 1960, but was not official until 1969. It didn’t happen immediately, but the rule of the best reliever shifted gradually from the “fireman” role of Radatz and Hiller, to the “closer” role of Gossage and Sutter. Of course it was Tony La Russa using Eckersley in 1987 in 9th inning only/save-only situations that encased the closer’s role in cement. My own personal opinion is that there’s just too many relief pitchers now; an 11-man pitching… Read more »

Richard Chester

12 years ago

I prepared a list that demonstrates the trend toward relief pitchers. It is by decade and shows the number of pitchers who had a season with 20 or more game appearances, all in relief. Of course a good portion of the increase after 1960 is due to expansion. I made a correction for the 2001-2010 decade only.

1901-1910…….0
1911-1920…….2
1921-1930……15
1931-1940……52
1941-1950……95
1951-1960…..192
1961-1970…..499
1971-1980…..604
1981-1990…..895
1991-2000….1486
2001-2010….2033 (1084 when corrected for a 16-team league)

An Anonymous Reader

12 years ago

Um, I’m pretty sure most pitchers complete all the games they finish.

Andy

12 years ago

Reply to An Anonymous Reader

LOL. That’s an awesome typo. Thanks.

Editor

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to An Anonymous Reader

On the other hand, you never see a Complete Game and a Game Finished in the same team’s box score.

birtelcom

12 years ago

Complete Game Losses 2000-2011: 1. Roy Halladay 15 2. Livan Hernnadez 12 T3. Jeff Weaver and Randy Johnson 9 T5. Sabathia/Vazquez/Ponson/Colon 8 There have been 169 CG Losses in the NL since the beginning of 2000, and 326 in the AL. In addition to these regular season events, there has been one CG Loss in the post-season over the 200-2011 period, and for that you have to go back to 2000 (Tim Hudson for the A’s, vs. the Yanks, ALDS 2000). Tom Glavine has not just the most recent Complete Game Loss in the World Series, he has the two… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

12 years ago

Jack Taylor completed EVERY game he started from 1902 to 1905. He only led in CG (39) in 1904, though. He had 279 CG in 287 starts from 1989 to 1907 (97%). Even against pitchers such as McGinnity, Walsh, and Chesbro, that is very impressive.

He had 152 Wins against those 279 CG.

Richard Chester

12 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

According to information I dug up Taylor pitched 187 consecutive CG, a record. The games from 1902 to 1905 are embedded in that streak.

Lawrence Azrin

12 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Richard,

I’m kind of surprised that one those 1880’s workhorses like Radbourne or Galvin or Will White doesn’t hold this record for consecutive CG. For most of the 1880s the concept of a separate “relief pitcher” did not exist; the starting pitcher swapped positions with another position player. Substitutions were not allowed except in case of injury.

Any 19th century historians out there to elaborate on this?

oneblankspace

12 years ago

Prior to 1950, the requirement to qualify for the ERA title was 10 CG. About that time they changed it to IP based on your team’s schedule.

Richard Chester

12 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Are you sure? In 1927 AL ERA leader Wilcy Moore had only 6 CG.

Mark in Sydney

12 years ago

There was a post on MLB Trade Rumors recently about Yu Darvish saying, in part, that “Essential to [the Rangers] strategy is to ween Darvish off the high-pitch-count outings he frequently posted in Japan in favor of more efficient pitch counts.”[1] This is clearly related to to concept of relief and complete games. But I really don’t know what “efficient pitch counts” are. Can anyone help with this? I mean, if a guy goes 9K/9 and 1.5K/BB over 140 pitches, isn’t he just as efficient as a guy doing the same over 85 pitches? Or is this just a way… Read more »

Fireworks

12 years ago

Reply to Mark in Sydney

In your example, 140 pitches versus 85 pitches, you ask about efficiency. Unless you are implying that they pitched a different number of innings, at the same pitch-per-inning rate, obviously the 85 pitch guy is more efficient. Efficient is absolutely the wrong word when discussing the Rangers’ plans for Darvish. Darvish has a very low BB rate for a strikeout pitcher; as far as I know he pitches very efficiently for a strikeout pitcher. I think the heart of the Rangers strategy is just that they’re not going to want Darvish to throw 130 pitches routinely, thus even if he… Read more »

Mark in Sydney

12 years ago

Reply to Fireworks

I apologize. What I wrote was a bit confusing. The point I was attempting to make was that modern idea of pitcher management is more related to pitch count than actual effectiveness. Those “old timers” often threw over 300 CGs over a 20 year career with lifetime WAR of over 75 for the top five. Doc is the active leader today with 66 CG and a WAR of 62 (over 14 seasons). My question is, given we have gotten so much better in terms of conditioning, bio-mechanics and so forth, why is it that the pitching has become, on an… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Mark in Sydney

Mark — One simple thing in favor of relievers: Any pitcher is generally more effective in his first 20-30 pitches than he is thereafter. For example, starters last year allowed a .700 OPS in their first time through the lineup, but .729 the second time.

About 84% of all reliever appearances last year were 25 pitches or less, and 85% were 6 batters or less.

Steven

12 years ago

In the late sixties, Gibson went a year or two without even being relieved while pitching in an inning.

Timmy Pea

12 years ago

When I was growing up in Boys Town, Bob Gibson use to come visit us and talk with us. He’s one of my heroes, a great Nebraskan, and a great American.

Paul E

12 years ago

Reply to Timmy Pea

Timmy:
Boys Town? So, you must know former Iowa QB Will Hollis?

Timmy Pea

12 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Wilburn, was was before my time. I’m in my 40’s.

PhilM

12 years ago

I recall Bob Feller citing this as his personal measure of a good pitcher: at least 100 more wins than losses, and more complete games than wins. (Maybe quoted by Bill James at some point?) Of course, Feller himself fits the bill, as does Juan Marichal: barely, by exactly one game on each parameter!

Richard Chester

12 years ago

Reply to PhilM

Feller and Marichal are 2 of 23 pitchers to have 100 more wins than losses.

topper009

12 years ago

How about this:

Most recent seasons with more CG than decisions

Player Year CG Dec Tm GS W L
Harry Ables 1909 3 2 CLE 3 1 1
George Crable 1910 1 0 BRO 1 0 0
Bill Crouch 1910 1 0 SLB 1 0 0
Ted Goulait 1912 1 0 NYG 1 0 0
Jack Rowan 1913 5 4 CIN 5 0 4
J Richardson 1915 2 1 PHA 3 0 1
H Kimberlin 1938 1 0 SLB 1 0 0
Jack Hallett 1942 2 1 PIT 3 0 1
Warren Spahn 1942 1 0 BSN 2 0 0

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to topper009

Spahn got his lone CG in 1942 in a forfeited game. Neither pitcher was awarded a decision.

Hallett had one of his CGs in a tie game.

I imagine the others are along similar lines.

Fireworks

12 years ago

Mark in Sydney: There are a variety of things to look at. 1. Perhaps our notions of what constitutes a good workload isn’t quite optimal. Some old timers say pitchers don’t throw enough nowadays. 2. I’ve heard guys like Feller or W. Johnson threw as hard as anyone. I find it difficult to believe that pitchers threw harder. Perhaps the common story of the farm boy that developed hard little muscles in the earlier days of baseball before becoming professional pitchers plays a role there. All I know is that nowadays evidence tends to show that guys that throe several… Read more »

kds

12 years ago

Reply to Fireworks

Not bad at all. One thing to add is that starters have to pace themselves, or they won’t have anything left for the later innings. This was strongly considered to be the rule in dead ball times and its influence only slowly waned. If you move a pitcher from the rotation to the bullpen you expect his fastball velocity to increase. (iirc by about 1 mph, on average.) So, for Walter Johnson, there probably was a noticeable difference between his average fastball speed and his occasional top speed. With Feller not so much, and today considerably less so.