Circle of Greats 1980 Balloting Part 2

This post is for voting and discussion in the 142nd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the second of three rounds of balloting adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1980. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1980-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This group of 1980-born candidates, comprising those with H-M surnames, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

In addition to voting for COG election among players on the main ballot, there will be also be voting for elevation to the main ballot among players on the secondary ballot. For the main ballot election, voters must select three and only three eligible players, and list them in ranked order. The first player listed on each ballot receives three points, the second player listed receives two points, and the third listed receives one point. The one player accumulating the most points from all ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. For the secondary ballot election, voters may select up to three eligible players, with the one player appearing on the most ballots cast elevated to the main ballot for the next COG election round. In the case of ties, a runoff election round will be held for COG election, while a tie-breaking process will be followed to determine the secondary ballot winner.

Players who fail to win either ballot but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. One additional round of eligibility is earned by any player who appears on at least 10% of the ballots cast or, for the main ballot only, any player finishing in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances. Holdover candidates on the main ballot who exhaust their eligibility will drop to the secondary ballot for the next COG election round, as will first time main ballot candidates who attract one or more votes but do not earn additional main ballot eligibility. Secondary ballot candidates who exhaust their eligibility will drop from that ballot, but will become eligible for possible reinstatement in a future Redemption round election.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Wednesday, February 26th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Monday, February 24th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1980 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also in the spreadsheet is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1980 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players, for both the main and secondary ballots, from the lists below of eligible players. The current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1980 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:

MAIN BALLOT ELIGIBILITY SECONDARY BALLOT ELIGIBILITY
Dick Allen 9 rounds Billy Williams 6 rounds
Vladimir Guerrero 7 rounds Bobby Abreu 4 rounds
David Ortiz 4 rounds Ken Boyer 4 rounds
Ted Lyons 3 rounds Andre Dawson 3 rounds
Willie Randolph 3 rounds Andruw Jones 3 rounds
Scott Rolen 3 rounds Monte Irvin 3 rounds
Johan Santana 3 rounds Reggie Smith 3 rounds
Luis Tiant 3 rounds Don Sutton 3 rounds
Todd Helton 2 rounds Don Drysdale 2 rounds
Gary Sheffield 2 rounds Richie Ashburn this round ONLY
Stan Coveleski this round ONLY Chase Utley this round ONLY
Ted Simmons this round ONLY    
       
       

Everyday Players (born in 1980, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Matt Holliday
César Izturis
Austin Kearns
Scott Hairston
Ryan Hanigan
Maicer Izturis
Erik Kratz
Ryan Langerhans
Felipe López

Pitchers (born in 1980, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Rich Hill
Dan Haren
Ryan Madson
Brett Myers
Roberto Hernández

As is our custom, here are quiz questions for each of the new players on the ballot.
1. Rich Hill has recorded four different stints playing for his hometown Red Sox, including his 2022 season with 26 starts at age 42. Which pitcher aged 42 or older has the only higher start total for the Red Sox? (David Wells, 2005)
2. Matt Holliday’s 2007 season for the NL champion Rockies is the most recent of nine with 200+ hits, 35+ home runs and 50+ doubles. Which player led his league in OPS and OPS+ in such a season? (Frank Robinson, 1962)
3. César Izturis won a Gold Glove in 2004 while collecting 193 hits, the most by a Venezuelan-born shortstop. Who was the first Venezuelan-born shortstop to win a Gold Glove? (Luis Aparicio, 1958)
4. Ryan Madson’s 5.69 ERA as a swingman in 2006 is the highest by a Phillie pitcher with a winning record in 20+ decisions. Madson recorded two 30+ save seasons, but had no other seasons with more than 10 saves. Which pitcher recorded two 30+ save seasons and had no other saves in his career? (David Aardsma)
5. Dan Haren finished his career with eleven consecutive seasons of 30+ starts. Which two pitchers have the only longer runs of such seasons to close out a career? (Greg Maddux, Mark Buehrle)
6. Brett Myers pitched 70+ games in his 2012 season, while playing for teams in both leagues. Who was the first pitcher to record such a season? (Jim Bouton, 1969)
7. Austin Kearns recorded career highs in OPS, OPS+ and all three slash categories in his 2002 rookie season, finishing 3rd in the NL RoY vote. Which other Reds player finished 3rd in the RoY vote and recorded career highs in OPS and OPS+ that season? (Hal Morris, 1990)
8. Felipe López won the NL Silver Slugger award for shortstops in 2005. Who was the first Puerto Rican-born shortstop to win a Silver Slugger award? (Wil Cordero, 1994)
9. Ryan Langerhans is the only player with 100+ games for the Braves, Nationals and Mariners. Which two players recorded 400+ games for two of those franchises?
10. Maicer Izturis is Cesar’s brother but the two are not twins, with Maicer born seven months after Cesar (particularly notable if they have the same mother). Izturis’s 2009 season featured career highs in many offensive categories, including .300 BA, .794 OPS and 65 RBI. Those three marks are the best by any Angel in a 100+ game season including 25+ games at both 2B and SS. Which other player, like Izturis, recorded two such seasons for the Angels? (Sandy Alomar, 1971 & 1973)
11. Scott Hairston counts his brother, father, uncle and grandfather among his major league brethren. Which player played against Hairston and also played with Hairston’s father Jerry? (Robin Ventura)
12. Roberto Hernández won 19 games and posted a 148 ERA+ in his second season, and first as a full-time starter. Unfortunately for Hernandez, it was all downhill after that, as his ERA+ plummeted to just 81 for the rest of his career, the lowest mark for any pitcher in 1000+ IP from the 3rd to 11th seasons of a career, and also from the 3rd to last seasons. Which pitcher active in 2024 is currently a close second to Hernandez in the latter category?
13. Ryan Hanigan walked more than he struck out in six consecutive seasons (2008-13) with PA in the 75 to 400 range. That is tied for the longest run of such seasons among expansion era catchers with a majority of each season’s PA at that position. Which player shares that record with Hanigan? (Tim McCarver, 1974-79)
14. Erik Kratz’s 2.5 career dWAR ranks 7th among catchers in careers of fewer than 1000 PA. Which other catcher, like Kratz, debuted at age 30 and played into his 40s?

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Paul E
Paul E
5 days ago

Is #8, Jose “The Mustache” Valentin?

Paul E
Paul E
4 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Sorry, but, I had to make a comment about the mustache

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
5 days ago

Main: Billy Williams, Dick Allen, Vlad Guerrero

Doug
Doug
5 days ago
Reply to  Jeff Harris

Thanks Jeff,

However, Williams is not on the main ballot. So, please choose 3 players from the Main ballot holdovers (left side of table) or from the new players added to the ballot for this round of voting.

Voomo
Voomo
5 days ago

13 Teams
17 WAR
20 Seasons
Team USA pitcher
Dick Mountain
Still active?

Doug
Doug
5 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

As of today, Rich Hill is unsigned for 2025. Hill remained unsigned until August last season.

If a team Hill hasn’t played for should pick him up, Hill would tie Edwin Jackson, who played for a record 14 franchises.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
5 days ago

Now that Minoso is in the Circle, I think Monte Irvin may be the sole remaining player with realistic qualifications for entry whose career was significantly affected by segregation. There have been rounds in the past where we’ve focused on Irvin to some degree — that’s how he made it to the Secondary Ballot — but, as is often true in this CoG exercise, I think those older discussions haven’t retained their currency. nsb wrote a valuable post about Irvin last round, and I want to flag that at the outset here. Unless nsb or others build on that over… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
5 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Seems like a logistical oversight on our part to drop from Main to Secondary with no rounds buffer. I’m wired like Bob – likely to give those guys my vote just to keep them going.

I propose giving Main drop-offs a 2-round buffer. I think that would stay within the spirit of what we are trying to achieve, and would allow everyone to use their votes authentically as opposed to strategically.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
5 days ago

Question #1 answer is David Wells with 30 such starts in 2005

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
5 days ago

Not sure of this but I’ll say Wil Cordero in 1994.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
5 days ago

That’s for question #8.

Doug
Doug
5 days ago

Wells and Cordero are right.

Doug
Doug
5 days ago

Reminder to everyone that we’re experimenting with a ranked ballot (for the Main ballot) for this round. So, please take care to list your three players for the Main ballot in order of preference, the first listed being the most preferred.

Paul E
Paul E
4 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
Gotta ask, “How will the three Main ballot picks be weighted?”. May I suggest 7-3-1 or 5-2-1 similar to the lines of MVP voting in the old days (14 points for a 1st place vote IIRC)? Or, did I miss that discussion and it’s already been decided?

Paul E
Paul E
1 day ago
Reply to  Doug

That makes sense – thanks !

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
5 days ago

#11: Robin Ventura. If Scott’s 2004 debut had been a day earlier, he could have played against Sammy Sosa, who was also a 1989 teammate of his father Jerry.
I have been under the weather the past few days and am sorry to now realize I lost track of the timeline for discussion and voting in the Minoso-Rolen runoff.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
5 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Thanks, Doug. Hoping to turn the corner soon. Your quiz questions have my mind engaged in a good way,

For #2 I found Frank Robinson in 1962.

Last edited 5 days ago by Scary Tuna
Doug
Doug
5 days ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

You’re on a roll. Robinson is correct.

1962 was Robinson’s third straight season leading the NL in SLG, OPS and OPS+, surpassing .400 OBP and 1.000 OPS each time.

Last edited 5 days ago by Doug
Voomo
Voomo
5 days ago

Stan Coveleski

67 pWAR
-5 bWAR

Voomo
Voomo
5 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

Ted Lyons

66.8 pWAR
3.9 bWAR

Voomo
Voomo
4 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Joe Medwick
Ralph Kiner
Dizzy Dean

An argument can be made for all of them as the greatest player in the game during their primes.
_______________________

Rich Gossage piled up 41.6 pWAR as a reliever (2.8 his one year starting).
Only Mariano has a higher number out of the pen.
And for the Goose, these were high leverage, high stress innings.
_______________________

Early Wynn won 300, piled up nearly 10 WAR as a hitter, and lost time to WWII.

no statistician but
no statistician but
4 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Bill Terry was really a dominant player for a few years until injuries kept him from playing regularly. He isn’t one of the Frisch crowd by any means. To me he’s as much worth taking a look at as many on our current roster. The same goes for Rick Reuschel, whose career arc is very like Tiant’s. I’m actually more impressed by Rick’s later years than his time with the Cubs.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 days ago

For question #13 I found Tim McCarver from 1974-1979.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 days ago

Question #13: Tim McCarver from 1974 to 1979.

Doug
Doug
4 days ago

It is McCarver.

McCarver hit for the “cycle” in the 1964 World Series (single, double, triple and HR in the series, not in one game). Who is the only other catcher to do the same in a single World Series? (Hint: he did it in a 4-game series).

Last edited 4 days ago by Doug
Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
4 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Was it Johnny Bench (1976)?

Doug
Doug
3 days ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Good guess, but not him.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
3 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Maybe I am misunderstanding the question? Bench was behind the plate for all four games of the ’76 series, going 8 for 15 with a double, triple, and two HR. McCarver was just a double short of a series cycle again in 1968.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
3 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Is Hank Gowdy in 1914 the answer you are looking for?

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
1 day ago
Reply to  Doug

In the 1960 World Series, Elston Howard was 6 of 13, with a double, triple, and homer. So unless I misinterpreted the question (always a real possibility with me), at least four catchers have hit for a “series cycle”: Gowdy (1914), Howard (1960), McCarver (1964), and Bench (1976).

Doug
Doug
1 day ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Howard’s “cycle” wasn’t entirely as a catcher. His home run came as a 9th inning pinch-hitter in game 1. No bottom of the 9th in that game, so he didn’t come into the game to catch (not that he would have done so anyway, as he pinch-hit for the pitcher).

I stand corrected about Bench, who also did it in 1976. I see now why my original query didn’t work. Having now corrected the query, you can also add Carlos Ruiz in 2009.

Last edited 1 day ago by Doug
Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
1 day ago
Reply to  Doug

Ah, yes – I forgot to check (as I had done for Bench) to see if Howard was actually catching for each game. Thanks for the follow up on it, Doug.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 day ago
Reply to  Doug

As I recall, Gowdy drove with license plate 545 the rest of his life, memorializing his batting average in the ’14 Series.

Paul E
Paul E
4 days ago

Is # 3, Luis Aparicio ?

Doug
Doug
4 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Aparicio is correct.

Kudos for knowing they were handing out Gold Gloves as early as 1958!

Last edited 2 days ago by Doug
Paul E
Paul E
1 day ago
Reply to  Doug

Actually, my first guess was Chico Carrasquel

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
4 days ago

Question #5: Mark Buehrle did it for his last 13 seasons and Greg Maddux did for his last 14 seasons.

Voomo
Voomo
4 days ago

A follow up detail on our newest COG member, Minnie Minoso. Here is an article crediting him with 4,471 career hits:

https://sabr.org/research/article/ichiro-suzuki-minnie-minoso-and-the-ever-expanding-4000-hit-club-and-research-team/

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
4 days ago

I want to make a more careful argument in favor of moving Monte Irvin up from the Secondary Ballot. “More careful” isn’t saying much: I don’t know nearly enough to make a solid argument about how to assess the data we have concerning Irvin, I’m just trying to fly by the seat of my pants over a longer distance. Irvin has two types of compensation that would be due him if we considered both the impact of segregation and World War II. In the case of segregation, the basic requirements I’m inferring from past discussions are that for CoG consideration… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
4 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

I’ve already spotted an error. I applied the NN2-quality=2/3*MLB-quality rule to 1939 without adjusting for games played. Instead of subtracting 0.1 WAR for Irvin I should have added 0.9 WAR.

Voomo
Voomo
3 days ago

Vote: Ted Lyons Willie Randolph Ted Simmons Ted Lyons was playing at a high level at age 41 and joined the Marines. Willie Randolph is #3 all-time in double plays turned as a 2B. #3 in Total Zone Runs as a 2B (since 1953). Top 5 in Range Factor ELEVEN times. I watched him play a lot, so I’m confident in saying that he was great. But rarely do I hear his name in a discussion of top defensive middle infielders. He is overlooked. I also know from watching him play that he was unselfish as a hitter. How many… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
3 days ago

Secondary vote: Andruw Jones Richie Ashburn Don Drysdale During Andruw Jones’ 9-year peak, he averaged 6.1 WAR and 35 HR, 104 RBI. He also averaged 21 rField over those 9 years. He is 2nd all-time in that stat to Brooks Robinson. There are very few CF playing today who have ever touched 21 rField, much less averaged it for 9 years. He actually averaged 22 over 10 years ( I omitted his age-20 season from his offensive peak) As a CF, using total Zone Runs, he is 1st all-time (since 1953). Nobody from our century comes close: 230 Andruw 176… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
3 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

Here is what the HOF thinks of Jones over his 8 years on the ballot:

2018: 7.3
2019: 7.5
2020: 19.4
2021: 33.9
2022: 41.4
2023: 58.1
2024: 61.6
2024: 66.2

Not that their opinion matters. Just putting his public perception in context. he went from barely staying on the ballot his first year to looking like he’ll probably squeak in in year 10…

Paul E
Paul E
3 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

 “he went from barely staying on the ballot his first year to looking like he’ll probably squeak in in year 10….”

Yes; and without a single plate appearance in the interim 🙁

Doug
Doug
3 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

Reminds me of the joke about picking up a girl in a bar. The one you didn’t give a second look to at the beginning of the night looks a lot better a half hour before closing.

Paul E
Paul E
2 days ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,
I refuse to cast aspersions upon that woman (women), however, it’s obvious that “civilization begins with distillation”.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

I appreciate the arguments for Andruw Jones, and you’ve hit some of the highlights, Voomo. I believe there’s no question he belongs on the Primary Ballot. But I do have problems assessing his career, despite the fact that he has one of the greatest fielding profiles in the history of the game, and in spite of my own emphasis on fielding quality. One element of this is that Jones played in a position that is typically a strong batting position. While his profile as a hitter has some very strong elements — 400+ HR plus a 51 HR season —… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
3 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

A footnote on Ashburn: I mentioned his exceptionally high PO totals, occupying 6 of the top 10 all-time season highs among outfielders. I just took a look at the career totals for outfield PO. Ashburn ranks sixth, but among the top 100, he is easily the leader in PO/9 innings. If you go down far enough in the ranks of total outfield PO, there are players with higher rates in much shorter careers. The first example is Dwayne Murphey, who is tied for 116th place in total PO, but in a career of 10,515 innings his 3.06 PO/9 exceeds Ashburn’s… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
3 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Might the change in strikeout numbers from 1950 to 2010 be a factor in Ashburn’s PO totals being higher than Jones’?

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

That’s a good thought, Voomo. I think it’s certainly a factor. On the other hand, Ashburn stands above everyone else in the PO/9 category. Andruw is tied at 25th in career PO with Mike Cameron. Andruw’s PO/9 is 2.62, while Cameron’s is 2.75 (Devon White, in 35th place, is even higher at 2.78.) Cameron and White are in the high-K era; Cameron overlaps Andruw completely. Really, it’s in the range factor (RF/9 vs. League RF/9) that Ashburn seems most to exceed Andruw. I haven’t run figures for for others, but the league RFs are close for Ashburn and Andruw (2.31… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

The defensive stats are certainly problematic.

We puzzled over this a while ago, comparing Larkin and Ozzie. I don’t think we came to a consensus on how the raw data translated to the Wiz being THAT much better.

Perhaps that between innings back flip he would do somehow factored in.

With regards to Andruw, the b-ref numbers have him lapping the field of his contemporaries.

Do we take these numbers as gospel, throw them in the rubbish bin, count on the eye test of GG voters, or just shrug and consider the data good but unreliable?

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

The way I’m looking at it now, Voomo, is that we can rely on the dWAR numbers to compare Jones with rough contemporaries, perhaps from the 1970s on — I picked that era because the PO/9 leaderboard doesn’t go back further than 1969 (the PO/G board does), but I think the real cutoff should be wherever the TZR research first had access to complete video records, because video review by ranks of trained assessors was the way the research first began. Perhaps the 1980s would be a better start. All this came up not as a way to throw shade… Read more »

Voomo
Voomo
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

The more we talk about it, the more I feel Jones’ average-ness after age 30 has caused him to be overlooked. We are looking for Greats. And I dont see an argument against him being regarded as the best defensive CF of the last 50 years. If that was all he had going for him, and was a Blair-level offensive player, maybe he’s on the outside looking in. But Jones was a prolific Home Run hitter. Only 6 players have more HR in fewer PA. He had a HR% of 5.0, with no drop-off towards the end of his career.… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

Well, I think it’s certainly true that Andruw’s early tumble over a cliff has had a large effect on the way his career is perceived. He isn’t just average after 30, he’s at -1.2 WAA per 162G. But we know that going into the analysis, and the goal is to see whether we can build on the unicorn argument in his favor — which, again, is a good argument (good enough for the Hall as far as I’m concerned). The complement to the fielding is precisely the HR, which really stands out in an overall unspectacular batting profile. I went… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Just as a point of interest, two COG members, George Sisler, and Wes Ferrell, were basically done at age 29, though both played on. Sisler’s talent was sabotaged by eye problems. I don’t know what happened with Ferrell, but he was a pitcher, and that’s what happens to pitchers. Koufax threw in the towel at age 30. I’m not building a case for Jones, but a sudden falling off of performance is hardly unknown, although it most often occurs around age 33. Dale Murphy. Jimmy Foxx . . . .

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago

I think Jones falls into this type of basket, which does warrant CoG consideration. Sisler and Koufax fall into one sub-category (catastrophic injury at their peak; Addie Joss too, obviously). We seem to be sympathetic to that. Ferrell and Jones are more about the unusual “extra” dimension; I’m pretty sure Ferrell wouldn’t have gotten CoG consideration without his 11.3 bWAR. I think both belong to a separate out-of-gas basket, too.

Paul E
Paul E
2 days ago
Reply to  Voomo

….and maybe the speed of the modern athlete would reduce Assists as well?

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Interesting! But wouldn’t there always be the borderline “fast enough to try but not fast enough to make it” tier of players ready to be the next set of victims.

Paul E
Paul E
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bob,
Bad baserunners have existed in every generation of ballplayers and they have a tendency to fatten assist totals for OF’ers and catchers – in the 1950’s and in the 2000’s. Strange that CS percentages have decreased despite better athletes behind the plate. Perhaps, baserunners are running that 90 foot distance a wee bit quicker; whether stealing or taking the extra base.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul, I suspect the drop in CS is simply a function of managers and GMs learning from the SABR crowd that the break-even success rate is considerably higher than what they had licensed in the past. I’m not sure the same applies to OF assists.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
3 days ago

For #7, I found Hal Morris in 1990.

Also: In 2012, Todd Frazier of the Reds finished third in ROY voting, with what would be a career-high .829 OPS. His 118 OPS+ would only be surpassed by a 121 two years later.

Paul E
Paul E
2 days ago

Time for another Coors rant….Matt Holiday over the years spent Rocky Mountain High:
.360/.427/.655 , 393 TB/162 and a sweet 141 tOPS

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
2 days ago

Question #5: David Aardsma who had 30+ saves in 2009 and 2010.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
2 days ago

I meant to type in Question #4, not #5.

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago

I was surprised that Voomo voted for Lyons as his first Primary Ballot choice, and for Randolph, whom I know he advocates for strongly, second. I’ve been an advocate for Lyons for a long time, although for much of that period I prioritized players who were subsequently elected (Dahlen and Wallace). This round, however, I feel some obligation to support Rolen first because I made a case for Minoso, in part, by arguing that Rolen was obviously going to go in the Circle this year and we should support Minoso while he had our attention. Voomo has raised my appreciation… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

So: Primary Ballot: 1. Rolen, 2. Lyons, 3. Coveleski

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
2 days ago

For the Secondary Ballot, I’m adding in Jones — Voomo’s advocacy has, at this point at least, bumped him up over Smith. My favorite is Irvin (but the Secondary Ballot in not part of the ranked voting experiment), and while I’d have chosen Ashburn for strategic reasons anyway, this round I’ve argued him into my full-throated advocacy. It’s astonishing to me that any player could have 6 of the top 10 in any career category. Secondary: Irvin, Ashburn, Jones. NB: I’ve discovered earlier analyses of Irvin on the site that seemed very thoughtful (and not necessarily advocating for him —… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
1 day ago
Reply to  Bob Eno

Bob, There are some obvious superstars of the Negro Leagues like Charleston, Paige, Lloyd, Suttles, Gibson and Leonard. But, if you look at whatever stats we do have, I’d question whether there was significant pitching depth. Some of those batting stats look like the Pacific Coast League of the 1920’s and 1930’s or the Texas League of the 1970’s. Would Monte Irvin have had a 15-year ML career? Yes, obviously. Would he have hit ML pitching at a 150 OPS+ clip? Possibly, at his peak for 7-10 years. I mean how much more can one speculate than that? Any WAR… Read more »

Bob Eno
Bob Eno
1 day ago
Reply to  Paul E

You’re not wrong, Paul. A huge portion of calculating a speculative total for Irvin rests on his 6.9 WAR at age 32. You could basically say that this indicates his earlier career would probably have had a good number of years at higher levels, and some deductions for seasons where normal patterns of injury, etc., produced lower figures. The fact that Irvin was a consistent near-.400 hitter at probably sub-MLB level doesn’t prove anything, but it’s consistent with that sort of model, which indicates a high likelihood of a pre-1951 career total in some range above 70 WAR, with another… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
1 day ago

Here are my votes:

Primary: Ortiz, Lyons, Coveleski
Secondary: Williams, Abreu, Boyer

Answer to question 6 is Jim Bouton who had 73 games in 1969 with Houston and Seattle.

Doug
Doug
11 hours ago

Bouton is correct.

Apropos (or is it ironic) that the two clubs involved in this first would both later switch leagues.

Paul E
Paul E
1 day ago

MAIN: 1) Allen – I don’t believe anyone on the remaining lists can lay claim to the title as one of the 2-3 best players in his league like Allen possibly in 1964, 1966, and 1972. His hitting was possibly greater than anyone else’s individual skill (i.e. Rolen, Ashburn, Jones fielding) on the remaining lists 2) Coveleski – great stats within his era and pitched very well in the post-season 3) Guerrero – he could rake. Led his league in IBB 5x so, obviously, opposing managers agreed. In the four seasons of his prime he didn’t lead the league in… Read more »

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
1 day ago

For #10 I found Sandy Alomar (1971 and 1973).

And Maicer and Cesar Izturis are half brothers (different mothers).

Doug
Doug
11 hours ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Alomar is correct.

Those two seasons came in a span of 647 straight games that Alomar played to begin his time as an Angel. Recorded 10 WAR in six seasons as a Halo, 0.5 WAR in 9 seasons for everyone else.

Alomar would later be the everyday second baseman for the Yankees in 1975, a job he lost the next season to Willie Randolph.