Circle of Greats 1887 Balloting, Part 1

This post is for voting and discussion in the 103rd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This is the first of two rounds adding to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1887. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1887-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1887-born candidates, with surnames beginning with letters A to I, joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots. The second group of 1887-born candidates, with surnames beginning with letters J to Z, will be eligible to receive your votes in the next round of balloting.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Thursday, August 13th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, August 11th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1887 Part 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1887 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The sixteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1887 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Red Faber (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Zack Wheat (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1887, A-I surnames, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Eddie Collins
Harry Hooper
Donie Bush
Eddie Foster
Jack Barry

Pitchers (born in 1887, A-I surnames, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Pete Alexander
Ray Fisher
Doc Crandall
Ray Collins

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No
No
9 years ago

Alexander Collins Goslin

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander, Rick Reuschel

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Here we go. Time for a fun round that should narrow the field significantly. The way I figure it, only serious COG candidates need apply. Here’s my vote:

Eddie Collins
Pete Alexander
Kevin Brown

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

LOLOLOL Great joke 10/10

The field might narrow by one or two, but never significantly. It doesn’t matter how many great people are on the ballot (or even if there’s a race between Eddie and Grover this time around), because there will still be a dozen votes on Tuesday or Wednesday along the lines of, “Gotta save my White Sox! Lyons, Wilhelm, and Allen”.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Collins, Alexander, and Paige. Much as I think Eck and Wilhelm are deserving, I can’t fathom voting for anyone else.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Collins 79.0
Alexander 77.9
Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Lyons 36.7
Allen 35.8
Nettles 35.7
Dawson 35.4
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.6
Ashburn 33.9
Faber 32.4
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Hartnett 30.3
Wheat 29.6
Wilhelm 28.7
Hooper 18.3
Paige 5.7

Collins, Alexander, Brown

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 years ago

Tiant, Goslin, Eddie Collins

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander, Kevin Brown

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
9 years ago

Collins, Alexander, Winfield.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

I’m gunna see how close this gets down the road to try and avoid two votes on Collins and Alexander. I’m sure both will get in and I’m scratching my head to figure out who was better so I’ll just go with the herd on that one and tack on some supporting flavor of Paige, Hartnett, Nettles, and Dawson

Brent
Brent
9 years ago

Collins, Alexander, Kevin Brown

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

Ah, didn’t realize this would be a split round. That makes this significantly more interesting. Walter Johnson is far and away the best of the 1887 birth year guys, but Collins vs. Alexander is about as close as you can get between contemporary HoF’ers, one position player and one pitcher.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Smart move on Doug’s part IMO. With Cobb (plus Home Run Baker) coming along in ’86 we have a plethora of top tier talent for a few rounds followed by a veritable famine of decent candidates for several more. Hopefully by splitting this round we won’t over-cull our holdovers for those seasons once the top line talent has been voted in.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Ray Collins and Ray Fisher.
Born in the same year.
Both named Ray.

And the two best pitchers born in Vermont.

WAR Leaders, Vermont:

65.7 … Carlton Fisk
48.0 … Larry Gardner
23.1 … Collins
21.9 … Fisher
09.1 … Daric Barton*

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Most Wins, first 7 seasons (since 1893):

190 … Joe McGinnity
190 … G.C. (Pete) Alexander
153 … Eddie Plank
151 … Jack Chesbro
151 … Walter JOhnson
150 … Christy Mathewson
146 … Lefty Grove
144 … Mordecai Brown
141 … Addie Joss

Pete’s run was interrupted in 1918 by WWI.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Here are the leaders, first 7 years, since 1920:

146 … Lefty Grove
137 … Robin Roberts
135 … Tom Seaver
134 … Dizzy Dean
130 … Juan Marichal
127 … Ray Kremer
123 … Don Newcombe
121 … Carl Hubbell

Kremer’s career started at age 31, after 2300+ innings in the minors.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Since 1946:

137 … Robin Roberts
135 … Tom Seaver
130 … Juan Marichal
123 … Don Newcombe
119 … Bob Lemon
119 … Dwight Gooden
118 … Larry Jansen
116 … Roger Clemens
115 … Ferguson Jenkins
115 … Andy Pettitte

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Since 1969:

119 … Dwight Gooden
116 … Roger Clemens
115 … Andy Pettitte
112 … Roy Oswalt
108 … Bert Blyleven
107 … Dennis Leonard
107 … Justin Verlander
106 … Tim Hudson
105 … Mike Mussina
104 … Frank Viola

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

And the current crop…

First 7 years of a career, Since 2008:

98 … Clayton Kershaw
91 … Max Scherzer
86 … David Price
85 … Johnny Cueto
81 … Rick Porcello
80 … Gio Gonzalez
79 … Hiroki Kuroda
78 … Madison Bumgarner

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Minor errata, this is the 103rd round of voting, rather than the 102nd.

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Alexander, Hartnett, Collins

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Collins, Alexander, Goslin

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#1 (Eddie Collins). 1959 with Ernie Banks and Nellie Fox. And 1925 with Rogers Hornsby and Roger Peckinpaugh. Peckinpaugh finished 1st despite being 20th (!!) in WAR among those who received votes. Peckinpaugh’s 2.6 WAR places him tied for 5th among his own team for position players and also behind Stan Coveliski, Walter Johnson and Dutch Ruether too. If you were to list the top 10 players on the Senators that year from an objective standpoint, I am not sure Peckinpaugh makes the list.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

I think I should recognize that the screwy rules in the 1920s made Walter Johnson and other prior winners of the MVP ineligible for the award, which is why Johnson (with his 6.9 WAR) received no votes for the award.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

@23,

Walter Johnson and Eddie Collins actually did quite well in MVP voting, even though the award didn’t exist for a large part of their careers, and Johnson wasn’t eligible from 1925-28 after winning in 1924.

Collins got votes seven times and is 17th all-time with 3.86 career shares. Johnson got votes six times and is 52nd all-time with 2.54 career shares.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

@22,

That why you can’t compare the MVP performance of modern players to that of players whose careers started before 1931. Babe Ruth got MVP votes in only _three_ years; under modern rules, he probably would’ve been a serious candidate every year from 1916 to 1932, except 1922 and 1925.

He probably would’ve won the award in 1919, 1920, 1921, 1924, 1926 and 1928, in addition to his 1923 win (unless the voters just got plain sick of seeing him win the award every year…).

brent
brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Also, IIRC each voter could only vote for one player from a team on their ballot, which is why the 1927 vote has only a couple Yankees (Gehrig the clear winner since Ruth was ineligible and Lazzeri) and a whole bunch of bad ballplayers from the 51-103 Red Sox picking up 8th place votes (3 players who got votes actually had negative WARs)

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 7: 1986 Mets

brent
brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 (Alexander) is Roger Clemens (Red Sox, Blue Jays, Yankees)

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#3 Hooper: Rickey Henderson

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 (Bush) is Woodie English for the 1929 Cubs (131 runs scored and 72 OPS+) and Frank Crosetti for the 1937 Yankees (127 runs scored and 73 OPS+)

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#9 (Ray Collins) is Babe Ruth

#8 (Doc Crandall) is Ace Adams during the War.

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 (Donie Bush) Frankie Crosetti in 1937 is one of them, I know because I just finished replaying that season in Strat-O-Matic……

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 (Donie Bush) The other answer is Woody English in 1929.

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5 (Eddie Foster) is Lou Klein, 1943.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  John Nacca

Klein had 5.8 WAR in 1943 and 7.1 career-wise. He is not the answer. Billy Grabarkewitz had 6.5 WAR in his 1970 rookie year and 5.9 career-wise.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Wow. Not even 12 hours later and there’s only one question left to answer?

I think the answer to #6 (Jack Barry) is Carlos Quentin, in 2011 with the White Sox and 2012 with the Padres. I’m just not sure if I’m interpreting the question correctly.

brent
brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

That was my immediate reaction too without looking. and I think you are right.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbit: Eddie Collins has 7 qualifying seasons with a BA in the range .344-.349. No one else has more than 3.

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Voting for Eddie Collins and not Alexander to show a preference for who gets elected this round. Voting for Eck as I truly feel we should have more than one RP in the COG. Voting for Allen to keep him on the ballot.

Eddie Collins
Eckersley
Dick Allen

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

We have Smoltz who is surely not in for being purely a starter (neither would Eck get in for purely being a reliever) and wanting another reliever doesn’t explain preferring Eck to Wilhelm.

shard
shard
9 years ago

Eddie Collins – Pete Alexander – Satchel Paige

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

Who was better? Pete Alexander or Eddie Collins? I personally don’t think there’s any question that GCA was not only better, but could have been the greatest pitcher of all time if he had not served at the front in WW I, where he lost his hearing in one ear, injured his right arm, and suffered trauma that triggered epilepsy. Given these difficulties, he came back and remade himself, adapted to the 1920’s style of play, and remained one of the top pitchers in the NL through his age 41 season. Not to fault him, but Collins missed just 16… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

The easy reply is that looking at Collins’ Black and Gray Ink and OPS+ is slightly misleading because … he played second base. He was also a direct contemporary of Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, playing in the same league. Speaker “only” has 34 Black Ink, and he was a GREAT player (and GREAT hitter). But Cobb was a GREATER hitter than either Collins or Speaker, and I’m guessing took much of their potential black ink. I’m not sure who the best NL batter is during that period – Wagner is about 13 years older than that trio. And yet,… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

I’m sold Artie but I’ll try to play some devil’s advocate. I would say that in general when looking at rankings of pitchers and position players that you have to roughly double the ranking of the pitcher (say 10th to 20th) to compare since baseball uses so many more position players. GCA was pulling down up to 28% of his team’s innings while the highest percentage of a position player’s team PA’s is less than half that. Now Old Pete would hit but so too would his position players field. Bottom line, value comparisons across pitchers and hitters need to… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Great post, Artie. I’m gonna vote in the last couple of days (mostly because I’m really busy), so I’m happy to read arguments for one guy or the other to help make up my mind until then. This is a refreshing change from trying to sort out which of about 60 players should get spots 110-119; we have been looking at that for so long and so hard that I think we are getting the collective equivalent of having our eyes hurt by staring at something for too long. I was going to make the same point as mosc about… Read more »

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago

#8 (Doc Crandall) is Ace Adams during the War………

oneblankspace
9 years ago

R.Collins makes it with 23 Pitching WAR rather than a 10-year career.

Voting:
Faber, Lyons, E.Collins

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
9 years ago

Many great players in the mix. I will go with these three;
Satchel Paige
Eddie Collins
Pete Alexander

Darien
9 years ago

Alexander, Eckersley, and Wilhelm.

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Hartnett, Eddie Collins, and Alexander.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Hmm… picking just one of Collins & Alexander is hard, and a bit arbitrary since I join many here in thinking their careers are of similar value; but picking one makes the ‘head to head’ more interesting.

There is an interesting difference in ‘peak’ and longevity for the two: Collins’ peak appeared to last for practically his whole career, whereas Alexander’s only lasted for the first 10 years of his career, and yet he was above average up to and including his age 42 season; I’ll go with him, here’s my vote:

Grover Cleveland ‘Pete’ Alexander, Dick Allen, Luis Tiant

brp
brp
9 years ago

To stay on the ballot:
Dawson
Ashburn

To win:
Alexander

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Alexander, Allen, Collins

David P
David P
9 years ago

Donnie Bush is in select company! He’s one of 19 players to have a 6+ WAR season at age 21.

14 of those 19 are in the HOF, Griffey will make it 15. Andruw Jones, I consider doubtful. Trout is still active but on his way.

That leaves Bush and Cesar Cedeno as the definite outsiders. Bush easily has the lowest career WAR of the 19.

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Eddie Collins, Pete Alexander and Rick Reuschell

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago

There is nothing bad to say about either Alexander and Collins. There is a significant off-stats advantage for Collins: he was a team captain, capable of acting as a second manager – one of the smartest guys ever in baseball, according to reputation – and a tremendous asset for his managers and teams in that regard. Alex, as is well known, was not able to add to his teams in comparable ways. As for on-field accomplishments, I think Artie’s case for Collins negates the HoF discrepancies noted by nsb. On the other hand, nsb makes good points concerning the challenges… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Early returns, according to my count. Through 21 ballots (#58):

18 – Alexander, Collins
==================50% (11)
==================25% (6)
4 – Brown
3 – Allen*, Goslin, Paige
==================10% (3)
2 – Eckersley, Hartnett, Reuschel*, Tiant*
1 – Ashburn*, Dawson*, Faber*, Lyons*, Wilhelm, Winfield*
0 – Nettles, Wheat*

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Paige doesn’t need my vote. I can’t imagine Hartnett losing a round either. Voting for Alexander over Collins by the slimmest of margins (means NOT voting for the deserving Collins)

Alexander, Dawson, Nettles

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

FWIW the Hall of Stats has Collins ahead 251 to 249. JAWS has Alexander ahead 94.8 to 94.1.

I’ll go with Collins because thinking of him doesn’t remind me of Ronald Reagan.

Collins, Lyons, Hartnett

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hmm… is ‘The Winning Team’ any good?

That it stars Reagan as Alexander is probably not a good sign. Looking it up, I see that it does have Doris Day opposite Reagan, and apparently Russ Tamblyn shows up; Bob Lemon, too. Any other actual ballplayers besides Lemon?

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

IMDB says 3 out of 5 stars. I would say that is about right. Reagan was a decent athlete, so he is believable in his baseball scenes, which is a plus (I hate baseball movies where the actor clearly has never thrown a baseball before the movie, I am looking at you Tim Robbins). Bob Lemon plays Jesse Haines. They had a real actor play Rogers Hornsby (Frank Lovejoy), but the rest of the players were ballplayers. Jerry Priddy, Peanuts Lowery, George Metkovich, Irv Noren, Hank Sauer, Al Zarilla, Gene Mauch. They also used archived footage of Babe Ruth, Lou… Read more »

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

Doris Day was in That Touch of Mink with Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle. Also Cary Grant and Yogi Berra.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

‘The Winning Team’ actually sounds pretty interesting now- I will have to try and catch it sometime.

I’d heard of ‘That Touch of Mink’ but didn’t know it is full of Yankees cameos…

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

IIRC, Cary Grant takes Doris out on a date to a game and somehow they end up in the dugout and she gets Maris, Mantle and Berra kicked out of the game for her arguing with the umpire.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

Grant took Day to see the local nine, which happened to be the Yankees.

Berra got his line wrong on one of the takes. He apologized for his error: “I’m as red as a sheet.”

Maris and Mantle got to sit next to Day, while Berra was outside of Grant on one end.

Berra agreed with the umpire, but the ump took it as sarcasm, and threw him out anyway.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

That’s a great reason. I’m changing my vote to Collins instead of Alexander!

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

When politics enters the door, reason flies out the window.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

I’m at a loss as to how to separate: Lyons Faber Reuschel Brown Tiant ________ Same problem with: Goslin Wheat Dawson Winfield _________ Ashburn is a slightly different profile, and I like his consistency. But hard to get too excited about him. _________ Nettles? His dWAR/WAR looks nice on my laptop. But I watched him play, and never thought we’d be having this conversation about him. Then again, we don’t have a lot of 3B in our club…. _________ Hartnett? Almost identical numbers as Bill Dickey. Old Tomato Face played for the wrong team. Suppose he deserves a vote at… Read more »

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Collins
Alexander
Brown

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Just realized my vote posted as a nested comment instead of its own, so just in case it’s missed above: Collins, Alexander, Paige.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Alexander, Eddie Collins (in case there is confusion about Ray or Eddie), and … Hartnett

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

E. Collins, Alexander, Ashburn

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Update, in brief: 25 – Collins* 23 – Alexander* =============75, 50, & 25% (7) 5 – Brown 4 – Hartnett, Paige 3 – Allen*, Goslin =============10% (3) 2 – Ashburn*, Dawson*, Eckersley, Lyons*, Reuschel*, Tiant*, Wilhelm 1 – Faber*, Nettles, Winfield* 0 – Wheat* 1. David Horwich’s update earlier missed Mike HBC’s ballot, so Alexander, Collins, and Paige were short one vote each. 2. This is treating mosc’s comment @63 as a serious vote-change; if that’s not the case, let me know, mosc! 3. If a vote is for “Collins,” I’m counting it as EDDIE Collins; if you intend(ed) to… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I really hope this doesn’t result in a tie because I think it would be entirely pointless. Collins & Alexander are clearly the 2 best players on the ballot (with the exception of Paige, who’s candidacy has other issues) so this IS their head-to-head competition. They’re both going to get in, no one will remember or care in a months time which one was first and it really resolves nothing. If I thought that switching my vote might keep it from happening I would do so in a heartbeat. And Dr., thanks to you (and David) for doing these updates… Read more »

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Alexander, Eddie Collins, Ashburn

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

E Collins, Nettles, Tiant

Whoever comes in second this round may well have to wait 3 more rounds before being elected, what with Walter Johnson coming up next round, and Cobb to follow.

PP
PP
9 years ago

Alexander, Collins, Goslin

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

I’ll take away my vote for Pete, in hopes of seeing him head-to-head with Walter Johnson. We have five pure starters on the ballot behind G.C.A. Similar stats, though they arrived there differently. Here are their best WAR years: Lyons / Faber / Tiant / Reus. / Brown: 7.4 … 11.3 .. 8.4 … 9.4 … 8.6 5.8 … 9.6 … 7.8 … 6.2 … 8.0 5.4 … 5.8 … 6.6 … 5.8 … 7.2 5.3 … 4.1 … 6.3 … 5.7 … 7.0 5.2 … 3.7 … 5.6 … 5.7 … 6.2 4.8 … 3.6 … 5.4 … 5.5… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I can understand why some people don’t support Lyons. His peak WAR season is a tie with more than 2 dozen other guys for 410th place on the all time list and even if you account for the fact that about one-third of the pitchers ahead of him played prior to 1900 he’s still tied with the likes of John Candelaria, John Denny, Teddy Higuera & Mark Eichhorn and below others such as Mark Gubicza and Denny McLain in a year that he didn’t win 31 games. However he was really good for a really long time plus he missed… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Coveleski, Faber, Lyons, these arent names that most people are familiar with. I think it is that simple.

Coveleski, top WAR seasons:

9.7
8.5
8.3
7.0
6.5
6.5
6.3
4.5
3.7
2.3
2.1
(plus 3 very partial seasons)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Times in the league top 3 in Pitching WAR:

6 … Coveleski
5 … Brown
4 … Reuschel
2 … Tiant
2 … Faber (1st both times)
1 … Lyons

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

In the Top 5:

7 … Coveleski
6 … Reuschel
5 … Brown
3 … Tiant
3 … Lyons
2 … Faber

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

I’m torn between Lyons and Brown. So hard to compare different eras. The modern era is so much more complex. Brown had the advantage of being a millionaire with personal trainers and really good drugs. But so did all (most of) the hitters he faced. He also faced the best players on the whole planet, not just the white guys form the northeast. And he had the pressure of his contract, with much more media focus. Though only was expected to pitch 7 innings, before yielding to Jeff Russell Robb Nen Trevor Hoffman Eric Gagne, and Mariano Rivera ________________ I… Read more »

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

Alexander, Nettles, Winfield.

Not voting for Collins, because I don’t want a tie. Collins will get in soon enough.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Just thought I’d point out that since Collins is currently leading, a ballot with Alexander but not Collins brings them closer to a tie rather than farther.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Changing vote to Collins, Nettles, Dawson. Because I’m fickle. Thank you David H.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Yes, EDDIE Collins.

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago

Eddie Collins to win, Goslin and Tiant to grace us during the wintery future birth years. Alexander is clearly 1 and 1.01 to Collins (or the other way around) but someone has to win this round, so I’ll go with Collins, and pick Alexander later.

koma
koma
9 years ago

Dennis Eckersley, Satchel Paige, Pete Alexander

billh
billh
9 years ago

Old Pete, Winfield, Allen

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, D. Allen, Alexander

bstar
9 years ago

Alexander, Dawson, Allen