Circle of Greats 1888 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 101st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1888. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1888-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1888-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, August 4th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, August 2nd.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1888 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1888 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The sixteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1888 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Stan Coveleski (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Don Drysdale (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1888, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Tris Speaker
Zack Wheat
Fred Merkle
Grover Hartley
Bobby Veach
Del Pratt
Bill Rariden
Dick Hoblitzell
Duffy Lewis
Tommy Clarke
Ernie Johnson
Pinch Thomas

Pitchers (born in 1888, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Red Faber
Jeff Pfeffer
Hippo Vaughn
Ray Caldwell
Bill Bailey
Fred Toney
Jim Scott
Jeff Tesreau

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Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbit: In his final year in the ML, 1920, Bill Rariden had 0 SO in 108 PA. That makes him one of three players with zero strikeouts in 100+ PA in a season. The other two are Lloyd Waner in 1941 with 234 PA and Johnny Sain in 1946 with 104 PA.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

1. Tris Speaker answer is Wade Boggs.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

19. Jim Scott answer is Wibur Wood.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Tesreau and his era+ has to be taken with a modest pillar of salt.
Hard to know what runs to ascribe to the pitcher in 1912.
He gave up 90.
53 were ‘earned.’
__________________

He did lead the league in H/9 his first 3 years in the league.
That is unambiguously impressive.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#3. So, the youngest player to score 100 runs, but never did it again?

Whitey Lockman, 1948?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 3: Zoilo Versalles

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5, Cleveland Indians, 1923, Tris Speaker and Charlie Jamieson.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 10: Rube Benton

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I think I can actually answer one without research. #18 has to be Joe Torre, right?

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Speaker, Brown and Faber

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Darnit, wrong place. I will repost in the right place.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Speaker, Brown and Faber

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

I give up, the site does not want me to vote in the right place today. Oh well, hopefully I get counted.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Try Ctrl-F5 to force a reload.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#17 is Bert Campaneris in 1983.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#16 is current Tiger’s manager Brad Ausmus (2005 Astros, Game 3)

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 4: I found Elston Howard in 1957. One start during the regular season and one during the WS.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I have no recollection of Howard playing 1B that year. I used the PI game finder to find all starting first-basemen for a WS game in a given season and placed the results into a spreadsheet. The number of games per player varied from 1 to 8. Then I used the game finder for the regular season and got a list of all starting first-basemen in a season for a pennant winning team. I then placed all players with 1 through 8 games started in that season into the spreadsheet and looked for a match.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Right! The good, old brute force technique. 🙂

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 6: I found Art Wilson, 157 OPS+ in the FL and 91 in the NL.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 Robin Roberts?

Jameson
Jameson
9 years ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

#2 Jim Palmer, 1976-78

Jameson
Jameson
9 years ago
Reply to  Jameson

Whoops, missed the CGs, not Palmer

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

Yes, Robin Roberts is correct.

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Del Pratt question should be Rogers Hornsby, if I’m reading it correctly.

Among historical players, Pratt and his contemporary Larry Gardner are favorites of mine, guys who drove in lots of runs and who seemed to be interesting people.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5–the 1970 Cardinals with Lou Brock and Matty Alou.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#15 is Jesse Jefferson, who went 39-81 (.325) in stints with the Orioles, White Sox, Blue Jays, Pirates and Angels from 1973 to 1981. I seem to recall that he was an original Blue Jay and his record with that expansion team (22 -56 (.282)) certainly contributed to his poor overall record.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

8. Jeff Pfeffer question: Darryl Kile?

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Got it. Thanks, Doug. I thought of Kile right away last night, found he had 41 wins and stopped looking.

The correct answer is Woody Williams, with 45 wins in 588.2 innings with the Cardinals. Both Kile and Williams averaged just over 13 IP per win while playing for St. Louis.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Last one for the night, #14 is Buddy Hassett whose last year was 1942, he hit 40 triples and 12 HRs in his 3807 PA career. Most of the rest of the 1Bmen on the list were Dead Ball Era guys, with the latest appearances other than Hassett being Stuffy McInnis, who had his last PA in 1927 and Doc Johnston who was last active in 1922.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#13 (Duffy Lewis) is ManRam, who did it in only 4682 plate appearances.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#11, only time 20-game winners for the NL champions lasted one out or less in a World Series start in consecutive years: Hank Borowy (21-7 for the Yankees and Cubs) failed to record an out for the Cubs in Game 7 of the 1945 World Series against Hal Newhouser of the Tigers; and Howie Pollet (21-10) lasted 0.1 inning for the Cardinals in Game 5 of the 1946 World Series against Joe Dobson of the Red Sox.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5-Mickey Rivers and Al Oliver, Texas, 1980.

I will never forget Rivers supposedly refusing to practice bunting because, he said, “I’m no good at bunting.”

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#9: Grover Cleveland Alexander

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

@20 (Tesreau) — Jose Fernandez in 2013

Jameson
Jameson
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

I think Craig Kimbrel also fits the bill for this question.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

To close things out question 12: Carlos Ruiz on 10-23-2008 and 11-4-2009

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago

1. Tris Speaker answer is Wade Boggs.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

That Bill Bailey kept getting chances without being any good.
Lowest career WAR, minimum 1000 IP:

-3.7 … Randy Lerch
-3.1 … John Harkins (1880s)
-2.6 … Bill Bailey
-1.4 … Ed Doheny
-0.2 … Elmer Myers
-0.1 … Bob Barr (1880s)
0.2 …. Carl Scheib

Consider that Randy Lerch could hit (1.8 WAR), and Bailey was pitcher-average (0.1), and that makes Bill Bailey arguably the worst pitching player (1000+ IP) of the modern era.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Bailey did have his moment of glory, though. The 1915 Chicago Whales acquired him in mid-September from the Baltimore Terrapins, for whom Bailey had gone 6-19, and Bailey won three games, all shutouts, as the Whales won the Federal League pennant by one percentage point. Bailey shut out third-place Pittsburgh in the darkness-shortened nightcap on the season’s last day, October 3, to secure the pennant for Chicago.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Let’s get really obscure for a minute. Only pitchers who twice lost 18 or more games for teams that lost 105+ games in a season: Bill Bailey, 1910 Browns (18) and 1915 Terrapins (19) Roger Craig, 1962 Mets (24) and 1963 Mets (22) Al Jackson, 1962 Mets (20) and 1965 Mets (20) Relax the loss criterion to 15 and Jackson leads with four for the 1962-65 Mets. Others, besides Bailey and Craig: Bullet Joe Bush, 1915-16 A’s; Galen Cisco and Tracy Stallard, 1963-64 Mets; Jack Fisher, 1964-65 Mets; Joe Lake, 1910-11 Browns; Al Mattern, 1909 and 1911 Braves (actually known… Read more »

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
9 years ago

Speaker, Nettles, Winfield.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Red Faber has 68.4 pitching WAR.
And his 12.3 after the age of 40 ranks 10th all-time.

Pretty good company:

26.0 … Jack Quinn
25.7 … Phil Neikro
22.6 … Nolan Ryan
22.3 … Roger Clemens
20.9 … Randy Johnson
20.4 … Hoyt Wilhelm (a freakin’ reliever)
13.4 … Jamie Moyer
12.4 … Warren Spahn
12.3 … Urban (Red) Faber
11.5 … Pete Alexander
10.5 … David Wells
10.4 … Gaylord Perry
10.3 … Satchel Paige
10.3 … Charlie Hough

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Quick tidbit from the SabrBio of Faber: “Back in a baseball uniform for 1919, Faber (11-9) struggled with the flu – he was weak and underweight – and with arm and ankle injuries. After a layoff of several weeks, he struggled in his only appearance during the final month of the regular season and remained on the bench throughout the tainted 1919 World Series. White Sox catcher and fellow Hall of Famer Ray Schalk long contended that the Black Sox Scandal would have been impossible had Faber been healthy; the conspirators would not have had enough pitching to succeed.” One… Read more »

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel Speaker

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Tris Speaker, Kevin Brown, Satchel Paige

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
9 years ago

Speaker
Paige
Veach

koma
koma
9 years ago

Dennis Eckersley, Satchel Paige, Tris Speaker

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Speaker, Goslin, Ashburn

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Speaker, Goslin, Hartnett.

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Speaker, Wheat, Ashburn

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, D. Allen, Paige

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Speaker, Goslin, Hartnett

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Speaker, Goslin, Hartnett

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Speaker 89.2
Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Coveleski 37.2
Lyons 36.7
Allen 35.8
Nettles 35.7
Dawson 35.4
Drysdale 35.3
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.6
Ashburn 33.9
Faber 32.4
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Hartnett 30.3
Wheat 29.6
Wilhelm 28.7
Veach 21.5
Paige 5.7

Speaker, Brown, Paige

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Red Faber, Rick Reuschel and Zack Wheat

Josh
Josh
9 years ago

Tris Speaker, Gabby Hartnett, Zack Wheat

Just want to throw a shout out to Fred Merkle and Bobby Veach. Merkle was a very good 1B, tainted in the same way as Bill Buckner by a single postseason fielding error. Veach was a very good OF for Detroit, but had the bad luck to play alongside Cobb, Sam Crawford, and Heilmann, resulting in himself being remembered a bit less.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  Josh

No knock on Merkle, Josh, but I think you’re confusing him with Fred Snodgrass. Merkle’s “bonehead” play occurred during the 1908 regular season. Snodgrass’s “muff” was in game 8 of the 1912 Series.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

It’s the last day of my vacation, and I don’t have all the stuff I need to fully make this decision, but for now I’m going with this ballot:

Tris Speaker
Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Speaker, Wheat, Allen. Might change a vote to Eck if he needs it.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Here’s an idea.
Let’s NOT vote Speaker into the COG just yet.
And have him go head-to-head with Cobb.
_____________________________________________________

(Wilhelm is safe for the moment, so I’m throwing my votes to three pitchers who have the numbers, but not the name recognition.)

Vote:

Stan Coveleski
Urban Faber
Ted Lyons

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Nah, Ty and Tris would probably just go somewhere out of sight and make a deal about which one would go in first if we did that.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

. . . with Dutch Leonard on hand to document the event.

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago

Allen, Speaker, Winfield

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Tris Speaker, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago

Speaker should get more attention. A great, great player.
Speaker, and, at a considerable distance, Hartnett and Tiant. Honestly, I’m not enthusiastic about the holdovers, but am mindful of the comparative desert coming in earlier birth years.

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Goose Goslin; Hoyt Wilhelm; and the winner… Tris Speaker

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Totals through 22 ballots (#72):

19 – Speaker
================50% (11)
================25% (6)
5 – Brown, Goslin, Hartnett, Paige
4 – Reuschel*, Wheat*
3 – Allen*, Ashburn*, Faber*
================10% (3)
2 – Tiant*, Winfield*
1 – Coveleski*, Eckersley, Lyons*, Nettles, Veach*, Wilhelm
0 – Dawson*, Drysdale*

Asterisks denote players on the bubble.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Right with you… and I’m back!

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

I’m finding it hard to vote for anybody who played this long ago who wasn’t clearly better than basically the entire league. Speaker clears my increasing bar which is probably up around 80 WAR right now.

Speaker, Paige, Dawson

brp
brp
9 years ago

Vote

Speaker
Ashburn
Dawson

shard
shard
9 years ago

Tris Speaker – Richie Ashburn – Stan Coveleski

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Speaker, Tiant, Lyons

It hurts not to vote for Dick Allen again, but he is in good shape so far; if he gets in trouble I will consider changing my vote. I think Allen is a ‘great’, but nothing like Speaker…

1897 looks like it is going to be murder on the holdovers: Walter Johnson & Shoeless Joe just for starters!

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

yikes, so these years and years before I was born are blending together…
I mean 1887.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

1887 has three inner circle guys (Johnson, Alexander and Collins), plus Shoeless Joe, not to mention a few interesting-but-not-quite-CoG names (Harry Hooper, Cy Williams, Clyde Milan, and one of my favorite high OBP/no SLG guys, Donie Bush).

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago
Reply to  Hub Kid

Top 11 all-time in bWAR, combined years ages 36-37: 1. Barry Bonds – 23.6 2. Babe Ruth – 18.7 3. Cap Anson – 13.3 4. Ted Williams – 12.9 5. Mike Schmidt – 12.2 6. Hank Aaron – 12.2 7. Roberto Clemente – 12.0 8. Honus Wagner – 11.8 9. Zack Wheat – 11.7 10. Eddie Collins – 11.5 11. Tris Speaker – 11.0 I’d have cut it off at 10, but since Speaker is on the ballot as well, I figured it’d make sense to include his 11th place showing. Obviously Wheat is out of place here, since the… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Wheat was a very good player for a very long time. It’s possible that had he not spent over half his career in the dead-ball era he would be remembered by someone besides Dodger or die-hard baseball fans. That said, he also spent 3 years of his career in a league where Bill Bergen was good enough to be a starter. Pass. Since I looked up their records quite a while ago it’s possible that going into the ’89 ballot I may had Faber & Coveleski mixed up. And now I find out that Faber’s falloff in ’18 & ’19… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

About Bill Bergen, Hartvig, I forget what Baseball Abstract or other writing it may have been in, but I read somewhere that at some point in the period 1905-10, a survey among NL players named Bill Bergen one of the most valuable players in the league. Whoever was writing this, probably Bill James (it sounds like his voice in my head), marveled over it, and concluded that it was probably good evidence that some important things were not captured by statistics. (Kind of like James’s mantra that to name an historical player truly great, you have to consider whether his… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Here is an article about Bill Bergen which I retrieved from an old John Autin blog on the BR blog, dated August 6 2011. I hope it works OK.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/sports/baseball/bill-bergens-awesome-record-of-baseball-futility.html

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago

It works, Richard. Thanks. The article is full of Bergen’s defensive excellences, but when you compare him to top-flight catchers of the era, like Johnny Kling and Jimmy Archer of the Cubs, no really significant statistical difference emerges – Bergen’s better, but not by much. If my recollection that he was named by contemporaries as an especially valuable player is right, there must have been more . . .

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
9 years ago

No objection to Speaker getting in. Voting for: FABER, whose Wikipedia page includes links to List of Major League Baseball leaders in career wins List of Major League Baseball ERA champions List of Major League Baseball saves champions List of Major League Baseball players who spent their entire career with one franchise MLB All-Time Hit Batsmen List Luxembourg-American DRYSDALE, whose Wikipedia page includes links to List of Major League Baseball all-time leaders in home runs by pitchers List of Major League Baseball players who spent their entire career with one franchise List of Major League Baseball individual streaks List of… Read more »

bstar
bstar
9 years ago

Haven’t done this in awhile but I am going to vote for three holdovers and not the obvious best candidate (Speaker).

Allen, Dawson, Lyons

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
9 years ago

Tris Speaker, Dennis Eckersley, Kevin Brown

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

(I accidentally nested this post above in a reply, meant to post it on its own; if someone can delete the above post, it’d be much appreciated) Top 11 all-time in bWAR, combined years ages 36-37: 1. Barry Bonds – 23.6 2. Babe Ruth – 18.7 3. Cap Anson – 13.3 4. Ted Williams – 12.9 5. Mike Schmidt – 12.2 6. Hank Aaron – 12.2 7. Roberto Clemente – 12.0 8. Honus Wagner – 11.8 9. Zack Wheat – 11.7 10. Eddie Collins – 11.5 11. Tris Speaker – 11.0 I’d have cut it off at 10, but since… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Anson benefited by playing more games than he ever had before.

Wheat just seems to have missed a lot of playing time in his younger days. In his first 11 seasons he only played more than 140 games 3 times. Even in the years shortened by WW1 he missed as many as 20 games. While on the surface his live-ball era numbers are more impressive I don’t really see anything that would lead me to believe that his game was necessarily better suited for that era.

And as for Bonds…

billh
billh
9 years ago

Speaker, Winfield, Allen

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Through 31 ballots (billh@99): 25 – Tris Speaker* ===============75% (24) ===============50% (16) ===============25% (8) 7 – Satchel Paige 6 – Kevin Brown, Gabby Hartnett 5 – Dick Allen*, Richie Ashburn*, Goose Goslin, Ted Lyons* 4 – Red Faber*, Rick Reuschel*, Zack Wheat* ===============10% (4) 3 – Andre Dawson*, Luis Tiant*, Dave Winfield* 2 – Stan Coveleski*, Dennis Eckersley 1 – Don Drysdale*, Bobby Veach*, Graig Nettles, Hoyt Wilhelm To say Speaker is lapping the field is to under-appreciate just how much he’s winning by. COMBINE the vote totals of any four players, and they STILL don’t reach Speaker’s current total.… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago

I still think Paige is the only holdover who clearly belongs in the CoG. Goslin is close, and comparable to Wheat, for whom I have a soft spot, as a Brooklyn fan. Hartnett is really the only other holdover I’d consider.

So I’ll go with Paige once again. And I’ll pick The Goose as company for The Gray Eagle.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

I can understand that a reasonable argument can be made for Paige–but saying he is “the only holdover who clearly belongs . . .” is a bit of a stretch, no? Clearly? Really? For someone to clearly belong with only 478 innings pitched is a tough argument to make. Other pitchers have had some pretty impressive post-40 year old careers and we’ve passed them over. For example, Jack Quinn. From age 40 through 49 he compiled a 96-80 record, 3.49 ERA (in a hitter’s era), a 122 ERA+, pitched 1427 innings, with 376 SO. Quinn’s WAR for that time was… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Joseph, I guess I was implicitly referencing my earlier comments on Paige. I do think he clearly belongs and is the only player on the holdover list who does (although there are some other great players). My rationale borrowed Bill James’ informal criterion for Hall of Fame consideration: Did his contemporaries ever consider him the best at his position? Paige’s MLB record was remarkable for his age – Quinn’s was clearly better. We cannot know for certain exactly what Paige would have done earlier in the Majors, but we do know for certain that numerous Major League players who saw… Read more »

robbs
robbs
9 years ago

I know I am more fascinated by similarity scores that the learned panel (for good reason), but I find Goose Goslin’s career scores interesting: Reads like a who’s who of borderline HOF/COG players. If he had more time, in some COG time machine, he could earn Biggio like COG vote totals.

Roberto Clemente (869) *
Harry Heilmann (859) *
Al Simmons (856) *
Al Oliver (825)
Zack Wheat (820) *
Joe Medwick (819) *
Dave Parker (812)
Jim Bottomley (809) *
Vada Pinson (809)
Bobby Abreu (802)
* – Signifies HOF

So going with Speaker, Goslin, Eckersley

Darien
9 years ago

Speaker, Drysdale, and Eckersley

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

speaker, nettles, faber

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Speaker, Wheat, Winfield

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Nettles, Speaker, Tiant At this point Tiant looks like a real longshot, but what the heck. I think both Goslin and Hartnett are CoG-worthy, Hartnett in particular, but they both have enough votes to not lose a round, and little to no chance at 25%, so I’ll pass on them this time around. I usually don’t vote for someone such as Speaker who’s clearly going to win, but Winfield is the only other player on the ballot I favor, and I don’t feel all that strongly about him, besides which he seems to be picking up enough votes to stay… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Speaker, Paige, Hartnett

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Sunday update, through 39 ballots (Artie Z. @109):

32 – Tris Speaker*
=======================75% (30)
=======================50% (20)
=======================25% (10)
9 – Satchel Paige
7 – Goose Goslin, Gabby Hartnett
6 – Kevin Brown
5 – Dick Allen*, Richie Ashburn*, Ted Lyons*, Red Faber*, Zack Wheat*
4 – Dennis Eckersley, Rick Reuschel*, Luis Tiant*, Dave Winfield*
=======================10% (4)
3 – Stan Coveleski*, Andre Dawson*, Don Drysdale*, Graig Nettles
2 – Hoyt Wilhelm
1 – Bobby Veach*

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Vote change from #65

Change from Speaker, Wheat, Allen

to Eckersley, Wheat, Allen

I almost always vote for the best player rather than force everyone else to it for me but this vote has several of my favorites right on the borderline of losing a round (or dropping off). I’ll feel a little guilty not voting for Speaker but I’ll be more upset if Eck drops off the ballot in a couple rounds. If we ever select a 2nd reliever then Eck will be our best choice IMHO and I want him eligible.

JamesS
JamesS
9 years ago

Speaker, Hartnett, Zack Wheat

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago

Another {vote for the best player} + {save two guys on the “bubble”} vote:
-Tris Speaker
-Dave Winfield
-Andre Dawson

Hmmm – I just noticed this would make a great defensive outfield also, though someone would have to move to LF (Winfield played 466 games there) – Speaker in CF of course, and Dawson over Winfield in RF, though that might depend on the ballpark.

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Speaker, Ashburn, Goslin

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Stephen

Vote change deadline has passed (see #40)….