Circle of Greats 1901 Part 2 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 90th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round is the second of two adding players born in 1901 to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1901 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order was added in last week’s round and the bottom half are being added now. This round’s new group joins the holdovers from prior balloting to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1901-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1901-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

In total there were 14 players born in 1901 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Seven of those were added to the eligible list last round, and the seven remaining players (alphabetically from Harry Rice to Glenn Wright) are being added in this week’s round.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, April 14th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, April 12th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1901 Part 2 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1901 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1901 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Carl Hubbell (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Al Simmons (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Paul Waner (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1901, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Luke Sewell
Fred Schulte
Glenn Wright
Harry Rice
Clyde Sukeforth
Bennie Tate

Pitchers (born in 1901, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Vic Sorrell

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Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vic Sorrell, getting it done ugly:

WHIP over 1.5
Highest WAR:

6.1 (1.504) … Wes Ferrell (1929)
5.9 (1.555) … Bobo Newsom (1934)
5.7 (1.504) … Vic Sorrell (1930)
5.3 (1.544) … Alex Ferguson (1924)
5.3 (1.505) … Fritz Ostermueller (1934)
5.2 (1.561) … Phil Collins (1930)
5.1 (1.559) … Bob Feller (1938)
4.9 (1.555) … Vic Sorrell (1931)
4.8 (1.596) … Bobo Newsom (1938)

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Bennie Tate, hitting machine:

Highest Season Batting Average, minimum 30 PA

.517 … Tripp Sigman
.512 … Rudy Pemberton
.500 … Gil Coan
.500 … Cameron Maybin
.486 … Eddie Murphy
.481 … Bennie Tate
.468 … Craig Wilson

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Clyde Sukeforth, getting it done, for reals…

Highest Batting Average, CATCHER, minimum 250 PA

.399 … Don Padgett
.368 … Smokey Burgess
.367 … Babe Phelps
.366 … Gus Mancuso
.365 … Joe Mauer
.362 … Bill Dickey
.362 … Mike Piazza
.358 … Chief Meyers
.357 … Mickey Cochrane
.354 … CLYDE SUKEFORTH
.354 … Gabby Hartnett
.353 … Bubbles Hargrave
________

Padgett lost his .400 right at the end:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=padgedo01&t=b&year=1939

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Sukeforth also had a perfect 2-0 record as Manager (in some fairly significant games).

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

WAR does not sort out our current balloteers:

72.8 … Waner
70.1 … Reuschel
68.7 … Simmons
68.3 … Brown
68.0 … Nettles
67.5 … Hubbell
66.7 … Tiant
63.8 … Winfield
62.9 … Eckersley
61.6 … Ferrell
60.3 … Killebrew
50.1 … Minoso
34.2 … Campanella

25.3 … Wright
20.5 … Sorrell
15.4 … Schulte
15.4 … Rice
3.8 … Sewell
3.3 … Tate
0.5 … Sukeforth

Author

Doug

9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. 1. Luke Sewell’s career best batting average was .294 for the 1926 Indians. Which teammate of Sewell’s is the only other player to have 5000 PA from 1926 to 1937 and fail to bat .300 in any season of his career? 2. Fred Schulte posted four consecutive seasons (1931-34) of 30 doubles with single-digit home runs from fewer than 175 hits. Who are the only two players since with a longer streak of such seasons? 3. Glenn Wright began his career with 316 consecutive games as the Pirates’ starting shortstop, including every inning of his 1924 debut… Read more »

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Answer to the Glenn Wright question is Miguel Tejada. His 498 RBI edge out Wright and his 486.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbit: Luke Sewell is the only player with 20+ seasons to never have a seasonal OPS+ of at least 100. His top mark was 91 in 1924.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Answer to number 2, Fred Schulte question: Ben Chapman and Johnny Ray. Duffy Lewis did it prior to Schulte.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Bennie Tate question, number 6: I found that Greg Myers went his last 2010 PA without an HBP. Many of those PA were as a PH or DH but if you subtract his lifetime PH and DH appearances from that number it’s still greater than Tate’s 1379 PA.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

All correct answers.

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Answer to the Vic Sorrell question looks to be the Royals, who had Dennis Leonard, Paul Splittorff and Steve Busby as a trio on a bunch of teams in the 70’s.

At some point this season, the Giants will join that list with Cain, Lincecum and Bumgarner, but there’s no guarantee those three will retire as Giants.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Three are tough. There aren’t even many pairs. These are the only ones with retired expansion era pitchers with 1000+ IP.
– Teddy Higuera/Bill Wegman – Brewers 1985-94
– Mike Norris/Steve McCatty – As 1977-85
– Scott McGregor/Jim Palmer – Os 1976-84
– Don Wilson/J.R. Richard – Astros 1971-74
– Steve Blass/Bob Moose – Bucs 1967-74
– Whitey Ford/Mel Stottlemyre – Yanks 1964-67

Last trio before the Royals was Erskine, Koufax and Drysdale with the 1956-59 Dodgers. You’d have to be a real Red Sox fanatic to get the one before that: Mel Parnell/Willard Nixon/Tom Brewer 1954-56.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For Rice, I didn’t solve it, but it’s not Carl Crawford, Michael Bourn, Marquis Grissom or Vince Coleman, all of whom were reasonably close, but no cigar. It’s almost got to be a top-of-the-order guy in a high-offense era (’30s or 90s?) who didn’t walk a lot, possibly helped by being speedy. Or I’m way off and it’s just guy who scored runs off his own homers a lot.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to brp

Cesar Cedeno had seven straight seasons as such, from 1971-1977. You were in the right neighborhood by player-type, brp, just wrong about the era. In a similar era, Bert Campaneris did it 5 times in six years. Johnny Callison also equaled Harry Rice by doing it 5 times consecutively (1962-1966). Thank you, free P-I subscription (still available until 4/15, everyone)!

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

1. Luke Sewell question: Ozzie Bluege, his teammate for the two years Sewell spent with the Senators, 1933-34.

5. Clyde Sukeforth question: Roberto Clemente.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

[Sigh] I meant “Ossie” Bluege.

Bluege was the farm director of the Senators who signed 17-year-old Harmon Killebrew in 1954.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Both correct.

The Clemente signing was an interesting story. Sukeforth had been fired as a coach by the Dodgers after the 1952 season (some say Sukeforth, as bullpen coach, was made the scapegoat for the choice to bring in Ralph Branca to relieve Newcombe in the 1951 pennant playoff). Branch Rickey, who was now running the show in Pittsburgh, picked up his friend again. On Sukeforth’s recommendation, the Pirates claimed Clemente from Brooklyn in the Rule V draft. Of course, it took a while before Clemente proved the wisdom of that choice, but sweet revenge nonetheless.

Steven

9 years ago

Simmons, Hubbell, Waner.

Darien

9 years ago

Killebrew, Waner, and Eckersley

Hartvig

9 years ago

Glenn Wright isn’t a serious COG candidate by any means and his offensive numbers were inflated by the times in which he played. Still for a few years there he was a really terrific player and if not for his injuries he might well rank among the greatest shortstops in history. Pretty amazing that for the first 40 years of the last Century the Pirates had arguably the games best shortstop playing for them almost every year.

Waner, Campanella, Ferrell

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Wright and Joe Sewell are the only rookie shortstops to play every inning of the season. Sewell did it a second time the same year (1924) as Wright.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Ernie Banks missed by an inning and a half in 1954.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

It is hard to remember that Sewell would be considered a rookie in 1921, given the September/October he had in 1920.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

Like Ken Dryden in hockey. He was the MVP of the NHL playoffs in 1971, then won RoY honors in 1972.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Joe Sewell is one of 19 players who had 9+ consecutive seasons of 150+ games played. I determined that without using the PI.

Stephen

9 years ago

Killebrew, Hubble, Simmons

JEV

9 years ago

Hubble, Simmons, Campanella

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Does anyone know how birtelcom is doing? I’m getting a little worried; it’s been a pretty long time since he’s checked in here.

Here’s my vote:

Al Simmons
Kevin Brown
Carl Hubbell

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Waner 40.8
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Hubbell 39.8
Simmons 37.6
Tiant 37.5
Nettles 35.7
Eckersley 34.3
Killebrew 33.0
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Campanella 19.2

Brown, Waner, Simmons

David Horwich

9 years ago

I believe Hubbell should have 4 rounds of eligibility, Waner 3, and Brown only 1.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I agree; David’s tally looks right to me. Kevin Brown lost a round in 1902 (round 88) and has not regained it; Waner and Hubbell were both over 25% last round (round 89, aka 1901.1) and should have picked up an extra round of eligibility.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Thanks for the correction.

I’ve confirmed your calculations and updated the post.

David P

9 years ago

Waner, Tiant, Hubbell

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, Eckersley, and Waner

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Simmons, Hubbell, Waner

Paul E

9 years ago

Simmons, Waner, Winfield

Andy

9 years ago

Waner, Simmons, Hubbell

Chris C

9 years ago

Waner, Hubbell, Eckersley

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Simmons, Waner, Minoso

9 years ago

Reuschel Hubbel Simmons

Joseph

9 years ago

Simmons, Winfield, Nettles

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

So far Hubbell is running at 33% …

… for having his name misspelled.

opal611

9 years ago

For the 1901 Part 2 election, I’m voting for:
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield
-Paul Waner

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Simmons
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Nettles
-Hubbell

opal611

9 years ago

For the 1901 Part 2 election, I’m voting for:
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield
-Paul Waner

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Simmons
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Nettles
-Hubbell

(Sorry if this posts multiple times. I seem to be having issues getting it to post.)

RonG

9 years ago

Hubbell, Campanella, Minoso

mosc

9 years ago

Hubbell is certainly good enough but I don’t think he’s the best player on this ballot. I don’t think he’s much better than Ferrell in the right context. It would be a shame to have a COG without Hubbell don’t get me wrong, I’m just not going to vote for him because I don’t think he’s at the top of this ballot

Simmons, Campanella, Ferrell… and if you guys let Nettles drop off I’ll be sad 🙁

David Horwich

9 years ago

Looks like we’re going to have another closely contested election. Totals through 19 votes (through #34):

12 – Simmons, Waner
10 – Hubbell
======================50% (10)
======================25% (5)
4 – Eckersley*, Killebrew
3 – Campanella*, Winfield*
2 – Brown*, Ferrell*, Minoso*
======================10% (2)
1 – Nettles*, Reuschel, Tiant*

As I mentioned @14, Brown only has one round of eligibility, rather than two (and Hubbell and Waner have 4 and 3 rather than 3 and 2, respectively), thus the asterisk after Brown’s name.

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Waner vs. Simmons, by (some) of the numbers. Games: 2,549 to 2,215 for Waner PA’s: 10,766 to 9,518 for Waner Slash lines: .333./.404/.473 for Waner; .334/.380/.535 for Simmons OPS+: 134 to 133 for Waner bWAR: 72.8 to 68.7 for Waner bWAR7: 45.7 to 42.2 for Simmons WAA: 38.7 to 34.8 for Waner Rfield: 67 to 23 for Simmons JAWS: 57.5 to 57.2 for Waner (basically a wash) wOBA: .410 to .403 for Simmons wRC+: 135 to 130 for Waner fWAR: 74.7 to 69.3 for Waner Simmons was regarded well enough defensively at the beginning of his career that he played… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

FWIW Adam Darowski’s Hall of Stats has it 137 for Waner & 131 for Simmons.

In 1927 when the A’s also had a 40 year old Ty Cobb and 39 year old Zach Wheat on the roster Simmons played 94 games in center. The following year Simmons spent all of his time in left field & Cobb played only in right while Bing Miller was the primary center fielder plus he spelled Cobb a fair bit in right while a 40 year old Tris Speaker took over in center about 1/3 of the time.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

@36,

When two players are regarded as about equally good, it’s useful to see what how people rated the players – both contemporary opinion, and what respected historians think.

For example – from the BJNHA (Bill James New Historical Abstract):

Al Simmons – 7th amongst LFers, 84 overall
Paul Waner – 9th amongst RFers, 84 overall

Wow, that really clears things up…

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@82,

OOPS! I meant:
Al Simmons – 7th amongst LFers, _71_ overall

T-Bone

9 years ago

Reuschel, Hubbell, Simmons

Stubby

9 years ago

Usually, I vote late and try to keep some guys around. I’m afraid, if I try that on this ballot, I’ll forget entirely or end up voting for “Collins” again. So I’m just going to put forth the three in the current group I think most deserving (for one reason or another). Simmons, Eck, Ferrell I’ve consistently voted for Campy and Minoso but, sorry guys, you’re on your own for this round. I’ve never voted for Eck before, but I do think his role in the evolution of pitching can not be overlooked or under sold. He was transformational. For… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Stubby

LOL regarding “Collins.” Probably wise to vote now; and if you change your mind, you still have until Sunday night to do so!

Andy

9 years ago

Hubbell, Simmons, Waner

koma

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Minnie Minoso

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Hubbell, Nettles, Tiant

Choosing between Simmons and Waner is just as bad as choosing between Simmons and Cochrane except they are both outfielders, making it even worse.

I appreciate the head-to-head comparison by Cursed Clevelander @36 above, but I am going to pass again, and repeat my previous ballot, with the logic of ‘it’s time for a pitcher’ (with Hubbell having a very solid, straightforward case unlike any of the holdover pitchers).

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Simmons was far better defensively. He also had the best and second best seasons between him and Waner with the bat (single season RBAT). Simmons was better on a rate basis he just didn’t play as long as Waner which allows Waner to compete in total WAR and WAA. Simmons played three consecutive seasons at >=7.5 WAR, a level Waner never reached in his career (best was 6.9). Simmons beats Waner in WAR in their respective best seasons, best 3 seasons, best 3 non-consecutive seasons, best 7 seasons, best 7 non consecutive seasons (or any such number of seasons Waner… Read more »

paget

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

@42, I’m not sure why you’re so invested in establishing Simmons’ supremacy over Waner (for a couple of rounds now it seems like a running concern); The difference between the two, no matter who one favors, is going to be very, very small indeed. Personally, I think I’d take Simmons by a hair mostly because, though he played LF for the majority of his career, he proved that he could play CF well — had he been given the chance to play there for the majority of his career he would definitely be looked at as one of the top… Read more »

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Hub, it doesn’t get any easier next ballot. If a pitcher wins, we add Goose Goslin to the mix, another OF who is roughly contemporaneous with incredibly similar career value (54.7 JAWS, 66.1 bWAR).

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Mosc, that’s a great point re: Simmons’ 1929-1931. I like both career value and peak value, and I am undecided as to which I weigh more. I do have a subcategory of peak value that I consider and that is ‘multiple MVP level seasons’, and I did miss that great streak of Simmons’. Hmm… I have another ‘subcategory’, and that is ‘excellence (i.e. significant WAR, etc.) at age 38 and up’ although looking at Waner his late career looks more like ‘hanging on a little bit too long’ (e.g. Biggio et al) than I thought it did. Simmons does look… Read more »

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Cursed Clevelander, I had forgotten that Goslin was coming up, too- I think all I remembered for 1900 was Lefty Grove; along with Grove, it looks like we are likely to add to the ‘Who goes first?’ crowd of likely COG-ers that don’t stand out against each other very much, with the borderline crowd straggling on. 1900 is a good nickname year, at least.

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Yeah, Grove is the obvious 1900 winner, and it seems we’ll add 3 more holdovers. Goslin as mentioned is similar in value to some of the other OF holdovers, Gabby Hartnett is to Cochrane what Waner is to Simmons (roughly contemporaneous players with similar career value, with Hartnett/Waner accruing more WAR because of longevity while Cochrane/Simmons had the higher peak value), and Ted Lyons (67.2 bWAR) seems to be right in that meaty zone for pitchers where we all agree they belong on the ballot but can’t decide who stands out among his peers.

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Campanella, Hubbell, Simmons.

Steve

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew; Carl Hubbell; Al Simmons –

J.R.

9 years ago

Winfield, Hubbell, Simmons.

J.R.

9 years ago

Not sure if mine went through… Winfield, Hubbell, Simmons.

Joseph

9 years ago

Changing my vote: Nettles, Tiant, Simmons.

Joseph

9 years ago

We need to start seeing some votes for Nettles or I’m going to start reposting all my Nettles propaganda.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Wes Ferrell, Kevin Brown, and Graig Nettles

jajacob

9 years ago

simmons, nettles and tiant

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Minoso
ASimmons (I just like saying Aloysius)
Harm and Kill the Brewers, er, Harmon Killebrew.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

And he did, more or less, “Harm and kill the Brewers.” Killer OPS’d .954 against the crew, the highest total for him against any team. That wouldn’t be THAT odd, beating up on an expansion team, except that ALL of those games occurred in Killebrew’s age 34-39 seasons, when his overall OPS was only .807 total. Basically, his ability to beat up on them was the defining trait of his last 6 years in the league.

JamesS

9 years ago

Campanella, Hubbell, Waner

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Random eligibility question: Is Benny Kauff going to make the ballot in his birth year of 1890? He has the 20 WAR, but only if you include his Federal League years. Not that it matters for practical reasons (he probably won’t get a vote), but I think he’s an interesting guy and I always like seeing what the great baseball minds at HHS think about the lesser lights in the firmament. He’s also one of the more sympathetic guys to be blacklisted (IIRC he was never proven to have been crooked on the diamond, just mixed up with some stolen… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

This isn’t an official answer, of course, but it seems to me Kauff should be eligible – Kauff accumulated more than 20 WAR, as you mentioned, and the Federal League is considered a major league, so the fact that the FL wasn’t an outstandingly strong league is (IMO) irrelevant.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

As far as I know, there isn’t a rule about excluding Federal League results, so he would therefore be eligible.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Not that my opinion matters any more than anyone else’s, but the rule in the text at the top says, “generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).” It specifically calls out baseball-reference’s WAR calculation; as long as it’s good enough for them, it makes sense that it’s good enough for the COG ballot.