Circle of Greats: 1907 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 81st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition (begun in last week’s round) to the ballot of those players born in 1907. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1907 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order in last week’s round and the bottom half this round.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

This latest group of 1907-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have, as usual, played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Wednesday, January 7, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Monday, January 5.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1907 Part 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1907 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The sixteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1907 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played. In total there were 26 players born in 1907 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Thirteen of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Debs Garms to Pep Young ). The thirteen players higher up in the alphabet were added in last week’s round.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Luke Appling (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Bill Dickey (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dizzy Dean (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
David Cone (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1907, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Rollie Hemsley
Debs Garms (named after the labor leader and socialist politician Eugene V. Debs) 
Buck Jordan
Pep Young

Pitchers (born in 1907, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bobo Newsom
Whit Wyatt
Fritz Ostermueller
Rip Sewell
Vern Kennedy
Al Smith
Jack Knott
Oral Hildebrand
Roy Parmelee

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Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Our newest Redeemee, David Cone, had a career just a bit on the short side (2899 innings). But by looking at the value of those innings, he stacks up very well with the other pitchers on the ballot. Innings Pitched per Win Above Average IpWaa: 73.5 … (1969) Dizzy Dean 80.3 … (3256) Kevin Brown 81.4 … (2899) David Cone 93.1 … (3548) Rick Reuschel 101.0 … (3486) Luis Tiant 107.4 … (3286) Dennis Eckersley 110.1 … (2621) Wes Ferrell 134.2 … (2067) Fritz Ostermueller 183.5 … (1431) Oral Hildebrand 188.1 … (3759) Bobo Newsom 262.8 … (1761) Whit Wyatt… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Dwight Evans acquits himself to the middle of the pack quite nicely, as well. Note how Appling somehow gets better with age. Wins Above Average (WAA), expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): 105.1 … (1345) Wes Ferrell (see also his pitching stats) 223.6 … (7065) Bill Dickey 247.1 … (10254)Luke Appling 287.8 … (7712) Minnie Minoso 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 …(10400) Roberto Alomar 322.2 …(10569) Dwight Evans 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killebrew 474.8 …(12817) Eddie Murray 521.4 …(12358) Dave! Winfield __________________________ Adjusting for length of career… Through the season crossing each PA… Read more »

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Killebrew, Murray, Cone. Getting harder to choose with this deep field. Time for Killer or Murray to get in. Easily the two best hitters on the ballot.

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  Chris C

I’m curious as to why you would conclude that Killebrew and Murray are “easily” the two best hitters on the ballot. Killebrew, certainly. But I’m not sure how Murray outranks Winfield as a hitter. I could see one arguing that they are comparable (about as comparable as it gets among all-time greats actually), but not that Murray is superior. For what it’s worth, WAR gives Winfield more Rbat than Murray and in fewer PA.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Appling, Eck, Ferrell

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Appling, Murray, K. Brown

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Luke Appling
Bill Dickey
Rick Reuschel

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 years ago

Dickey, Brown, Tiant

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Dean, Appling, Dickey.

David P
David P
9 years ago

Appling, Evans, Tiant

ajnrules
9 years ago

David Cone
Bill Dickey
Rick Reuschel

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Appling, Campanella, Ferrell

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Alomar, Minoso, Ferrell

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. – Bobo Newsom is the only 200 win pitcher with a career losing record. Newsom and Satchel Paige twice opposed each other when both were over 45 years old, the only times two such pitchers have appeared in the same game. In the latter contest, on June 26, 1953, their combined age was just shy of 93 years, a record high (excluding Satch’s 1965 cameo when, at age 59, he was relieved by 36 year-old Don Mossi). What are the other two pairs of pitchers to appear in a game when their combined ages exceeded 92 years?… Read more »

bstar
bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Debs Garms question: Andres Galarraga?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

That is correct.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bobo Newsom (a) – Is it the 5/31/1972 game between the Dodgers and Giants one of them? That featured a nearly-50-year-old Hoyt Wilhelm and a 42-and-a-half-year-old Don McMahon. I don’t know the other yet. I figured it would be a Charlie Hough/Nolan Ryan game, but I guess I was wrong. I’ll try to think of others.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

That is one of the games. Good sleuthing.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Bobo Newsom (b): Jack Quinn

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Quinn is correct. His career overlapped (barely) that of Newsom, but the only season both were in the same league was 1932 when Newsom played but a single game, not against Quinn’s Dodgers.

The other seven 4-decade pitchers are Early Wynn, Jim Kaat, Nolan Ryan, Jerry Reuss, Mike Morgan, Jesse Orosco and Jamie Moyer.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Nick Altrock also pitched in 4 decades, although this was more of a stunt than anything. Still, he did it.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Not sure if Quinn and Altrock ever pitched in the same game. Didn’t happen since 1914, nor as opposing starters in 1909 and 1912, the only other seasons that both pitched in the same league. That leaves, at most, only 5 other possible games (or none, at least), so the chances are pretty remote.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Roy Parmelee – I’m not sure I’m right on this, because I’m not sure I’m understanding the syntax. But other than Parmelee, Phil Niekro led the league twice each in HBP and WP – just not in the same season twice. You’re probably looking for someone who twice led in both things in the same season.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Jim Kaat led the AL in both WP and HBP in 1961 and 1962.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Kaat is the only one.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Rip Sewell – Mike Cuellar pitched 2028.1 innings for the Orioles, and began pitching with them in his age 32 season. Impressive.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Good one, Dr. Doom. I missed Cuellar, and also Charlie Hough for Texas.

So, I’ve amended the question to the only NL pitcher since Sewell to do this.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: I’m not sure if I understand the Hemsley question but is the answer Ed Wells.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Not Ed Wells.

Question is: Who was the last living pitcher who had struck out Babe Ruth?

Clue is that, in his last pitched game, Rollie Hemsley was his catcher.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I’ll try another one, Garland Braxton.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Not Braxton. He died in 1966, so unlikely he would be the last living pitcher who struck out the Babe.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

This will be my last attempt. A guy named Rollie Stiles, whose career was enveloped by the years 1920-1935, died in 2007, the latest of any pitcher in that time period who had at least 1 SO against the Yankees. His last ML game pitched was on 10-1-1933 and Hemsley was the catcher. It can be deduced from the box score of 6-5-1931 that he struck out Babe Ruth. So he is my answer.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

This is an update to my post #43. I ran the PI for Season Finders Player Pitching, Combined Seasons, set the years for 1914-1935 and sorted by Year of Death. Luck was on my side as Stiles’ name was on the top of the list. It also appears that Hemsley and Stiles formed the only Rollie battery in the ML. I hope Doug responds soon to see if I am correct with my answer.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Stiles is the correct answer.

Your method of deduction is bang on.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Doug: It took me awhile to figure it out, I didn’t realize it would be that simple. What made you even think of that question?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

I was trying to think of something for Hemsley, thought about a all-Rollie battery, found it, and then did a quick read of the SABR bio on Stiles where it mentioned he was the last living pitcher to face (and strike out) Ruth.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

While we’re on the subject, the longest lived pitcher to give up a HR to Ruth was Eldon Auker of the Tigers on 7-14-1934. Auker died in 2006. That was the game when Gehrig led off, singled and was replaced by a PR because of his lumbago.

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ostermueller question: a man currently on the CoG ballot – Rick Reuschel for the dreadful 1985 Buccos.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Reuschel is the one.

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Pep Young question: Jose Guillen, 1998. I was having trouble with this until I asked myself “Who had some pop in their bat but never walked?” Looking at it from that angle helped immensely.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Guillen is the one.

Manny Sanguillen is another who fits your description, but 40 XBH translated into a lot more OPS+ in the 1970s than in Young’s or Guillen’s times. Manny will have to be content with having more seasons (6) of 150 hits and fewer than 25 walks than any other live ball era player.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Adding San to Guillen makes Sanguillen. The only other instance I can find is adding San to Ford making Sanford (Whitey Ford and Fred Sanford).

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Can also add San to (Jimmy) Key to make (Ben) Sankey (Pirate shortstop).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Buck Jordan question:
(a) Buddy Hassett
(b) New York Yankees 1941-1942, Hassett and Johnny Sturm

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Answer to (b) is correct.

But, there is a more recent answer for (a). Remember that the question implies that the answer for (a) is *not* one of the group of 5 of which Jordan belongs.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Was it Frank Torre who played for the 1957 Braves?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Frank is the one.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The answer to the Whit Wyatt question is actually mentioned by NSB in post 77 – Spud Chandler in 1943. Chandler’s 0.992 WHIP bested the NL leading 1.007 WHIP posted by – Whit Wyatt.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Chandler is correct.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Jack Knott question: Anthony Yong with a lifetime ERA+ of 100. In second place is Don Larsen at 99.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Make that Young.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Young is correct.

He sure suffered a lot of ridicule for his winless ways, so good to see him topping this group.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Remaining quiz answers. – Bobo Newsom question: other pair of pitchers like Newsom/Paige to appear in same game with combined age over 92 years – Jack Quinn/Eppa Rixey 6-28-1933 (2nd game) – Al Smith question: last Giant pitcher to lead NL in shutouts in season of 30+ starts and 10+ relief appearances – Sam Jones (1959) – Vern Kennedy question: other pitchers to win 20 games with SO/BB ratio under 0.7 – Elmer Riddle (1943), Ted Lyons (1925), Sloppy Thurston (1924) – Oral Hildebrand question: other former Browns pitcher to finish career with 140 ERA+ in 90+ IP for Yankees,… Read more »

KalineCountry Ron
9 years ago

Killebrew
Murray
Appling

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Applying reuschel dickey

koma
koma
9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Winfield

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Dickey, Dean, Campanella.

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Dickey, Killebrew, Campanella

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Dizzy Dean, Harmon Killebrew; and only because you need three Bill Dickey

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Luke Appling, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Minoso, Dw Evans Killebrew

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

I’m absolutely certain of two of the players I want to vote for – but the third? That’s much harder. How do I weigh odd positions played, pitchers-as-hitters, pre-integration levels of competition, time lost due to service in the armed forces, time lost due to segregation, reliever vs. starter WAR… how do I do all of that and come to a reasonable conclusion? I’m just going to go with the one I’ve voted for before, but honestly, I don’t feel good about it. Here’s my ballot: Luke Appling Kevin Brown Luis Tiant (But I also strongly considered Campy, Ferrell, and… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Alomar, Appling, Dickey

Stubby
9 years ago

Campy, Minoso, Dwight Evans

Shard
Shard
9 years ago

Alomar – Dickey – Dean

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Killebrew, Dickey, and Appling

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Killer
Dizzy
Alomar

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Killer
Dizzy Dean
Alomar

JamesS
JamesS
9 years ago

Appling to Alomar to Murray

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Dickey, Appling, Killebrew

opal611
opal611
9 years ago

For the 1907 Part 2 election, I’m voting for:
-Roberto Alomar
-Eddie Murray
-Dave Winfield

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Appling
-Eckersley
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Dickey
-Cone
-Evans

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Killebrew, Dickey, Cone

Darien
9 years ago

Killebrew, Eckersley, and Dean

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Appling 44.2
Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Cone 39.1
Tiant 37.5
Alomar 37.1
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Dickey 31.9
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Dean 27.9
Campanella 19.2

Brown, Appling, Eckersley

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Luke Appling, Dwight Evans, Luis Tiant

Mike G.
Mike G.
9 years ago

Dickey, Cone, Ferrell

brp
brp
9 years ago

Murray
Alomar
K. Brown

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

1st vote update! I’ve been busy enjoying the holidays, and haven’t gotten around to this yet, but here I am! This update takes us through brp’s vote @63, the 33rd ballot cast (assuming that Andy accidentally double-posted above, and that there aren’t two separate “Andy”s who posted at the exact same time with the same ballot). Here you go: 16 (48.48%) – Luke Appling 14 (42.42%) – Bill Dickey 11 (33.33%) – Harmon Killebrew 7 (21.21%) – Roberto Alomar 6 (18.18%) – Kevin Brown, Dizzy Dean, Eddie Murray 4 (12.12%) – Roy Campanella, David Vone, Dennis Eckersley, Dwight Evans, Wes… Read more »

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Killebrew, Evans, Dean

Abbott
Abbott
9 years ago

Winfield, Ecksersley, Killebrew

billh
billh
9 years ago

Winfield, Dickey, Murray

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Appling, Brown, Alomar

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago

Campanella, Reuschel, Winfield

paget
paget
9 years ago

Dickey
Ferrell
Winfield

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

By some kind of coincidence, Luke Appling died on this date, January 3, 1991. Although he currently leads the voting, enthusiasm for him seems scant in the comments, and I wonder why. He’s the top WAR getter on the ballot, his career is solid in every way except power hitting, and he did some fairly remarkable things, especially considering the teams he played for. His first shot at an MVP award came in a year when Earl Averill and Bill Dickey were also having career years and Lou Gehrig was having one of many career years. Gehrig won, probably justly,… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Leaders

PA, age 39+

3694 … Rose
2595 … Rice
2589 … Luke Appling
2519 … Fisk
2486 … Rickey
2465 … Omar V
2443 … Honus
2355 … Winfield
2352 … Yaz

That is 677 games at catcher after age 39 for Fisk.
________________

WAR

19.2 … Luke Appling
18.6 … Bonds
15.4 … Fisk
14.7 … Honus
13.3 … Mays
10.6 … Rice
9.4 …. Stanley the Man

Josh
Josh
9 years ago

Bill Dickey, Dizzy Dean, David Cone

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Sunday AM vote update, through Josh @78 (40 ballots cast): 17 (42.5%) – Luke Appling, Bill Dickey 13 (32.5%) – Harmon Killebrew 8 (20.0%) – Roberto Alomar, Dizzy Dean 7 (17.5%) – Kevin Brown, Eddie Murray 6 (15.0%) – Dave Winfield 5 (12.5%) – Roy Campanella, Davie Cone, Dennis Eckersley, Dwight Evans, Wes Ferrell, Rick Reuschel 4 (10.0%) – Luis Tiant 3 (7.5%) – Minnie Minoso A tie at the top, and yet another scramble for votes among the down-ballot contestants, it looks like. Plus, Harmon making yet another run at an extra round of eligibility. Should be an interesting… Read more »

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Dickey, Alomar, Kevin Brown

oneblankspace
9 years ago

Appling (Old Aches and Pains) to restore the tie
Killebrew (Killer)
Minoso (Minnie)

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Would have appreciated an Andre Dawson vote here but what the hey…

Dickey, Ferrell, Appling