Circle of Greats: 1907 Part 1 Balloting

‘Tis the season to be voting, this post being for voting and discussion in the 80th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round begins to add to the ballot those players born in 1907. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1907 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half by alphabetical order this round and the bottom half next round.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1907-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Monday, December 29, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Saturday, December 27.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1907 Part 1 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1907 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1907 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played. In total there were 26 players born in 1907 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Thirteen of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Luke Appling to Larry French).  The eleven players further down in the alphabet will be added next round.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dizzy Dean (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Joe Medwick  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1907, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Luke Appling
Jimmie Foxx
Dick Bartell
Bill Dickey
Tony Cuccinello
Gene Desautels
Dolph Camilli
Ray Berres

Pitchers (born in 1907, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Larry French
Jumbo Brown
George Caster
Spud Chandler
Bobby Burke

0 0 votes
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

144 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
ajnrules
ajnrules
9 years ago

Jimmie Foxx
Luke Appling
Bill Dickey

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average IpWaa: 73.5 …. (1969) Dean 80.3 …. (3256) Brown 93.1 …. (3548) Reuschel 101.0 … (3486) Tiant 107.4 … (3286) Eckersley 110.1 … (2621) Wes Ferrell 130.3 … (1485) Spud Chandler 175.0 … (3150) Larry French ___________________________ Through the season closest to each Innings Pitched threshold… IpWaa 1500: 70.4 … Dizzy Dean 72.8 … Rick Reuschel 76.6 … Wes Ferrell 88.8 … Dennis Eckersley 90.4 … Luis Tiant 168.7 … Kevin Brown 238.1 … Larry French _____________________________ IpWaa 2000: 71.9 … Rick Reuschel 73.0 … Wes Ferrell 76.8 … Luis Tiant 96.5 … Kevin… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Wins Above Average (WAA), expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): PaWaa : 153.8 … (9676) Jimmie Foxx 223.6 … (7065) Bill Dickey 247.1 … (10254)Luke Appling 296.9 … (6353) Dolph Camilli 550.4 … (6880) Tony Cuccinello 710.6 … (8740) Dick Bartell _______________________________ Here is a breakdown through different Plate Appearance levels. Calculated through the end of each season closest to the level. (Note how Appling gets better and better) PaWaa 7000: 135.3 … Jimmie Foxx 295.6 … Luke Appling PaWaa 8000: 133.4 … Jimmie Foxx 245.5 … Luke Appling PaWaa 9000: 140.6 … Jimmie… Read more »

koma
koma
9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Jimmie Foxx

Danny Boy
Danny Boy
9 years ago

Foxx
Murray
Alomar

David P
David P
9 years ago

Foxx to win
Tiant to make sure he doesn’t lose his extra year of eligibility
Last vote is between Dickey and Appling. I’ll go with Dickey though both are clearly deserving.

David P
David P
9 years ago

Ivy Andrews isn’t on the ballot because his 8 years and 19.4 WAR are below the thresholds but he deserves mention for three reasons: 1) Of the 244 retired pitchers with between 800 and 1200 IP and at least 100 starts, Andrews is 2nd in career WAR behind only Johnny Rigney. Andrews continued pitching in the minors after his major league career was over so he wasn’t injured. He simply wasn’t appreciated in his time. Nowadays he’d probably get a three year, $30 million contract. 2) Of the 18 pitchers used by the 1932 Red Sox (43-111 record), Andrews is… Read more »

KalineCountry Ron
9 years ago

Foxx
Appling
Dickey

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Foxx, Dickey, Campanella

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Reuschel Foxx dickey

RonG
RonG
9 years ago

Foxx, Dean, Minoso

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Foxx, Appling, Minoso

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
9 years ago

Fox, Appling, Tiant

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Jimmie Foxx
Luke Appling
Kevin Brown

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

My 1907.1 vote: Jimmie Foxx Kevin Brown Luke Appling A caveat: I don’t really know how to treat catchers. I think WAR treats catchers extremely fairly on a seasonal basis (well, it could do a better job at defense, probably, but that’s not really what I’m talking about right now). On a career basis, though? Comparing catchers to other position players? No; I don’t really think it does a good job. The issue is, I don’t know by how much I need to adjust catcher stats to make them “line up.” It’s possible I could be convinced vis-a-vis Dickey. For… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Career WAR, catchers:

Bench 75.0
Carter 69.9
Rodriguez 68.4
Fisk 68.3
Piazza 59.4
Berra 59.3
Dickey 55.8
Hartnett 53.4
Cochrane 52.1
Simmons 50.1

We’ve inducted everyone above Dickey except for the not-yet-eligible Rodriguez.

Dickey is #7 on the list of catchers, at 55.8 WAR. At every other positon, the #7 player has 65-75 WAR. Catchers have shorter careers to begin with, and they routinely sit out 10-15% of the games in a given season – the highest single-season WAR by a catcher is 8.7 – so cumulative measures are not their friends.

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Foxx, Dean, Appling

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Foxx, Brown, Appling

Two/three deserving newcomers, a few of the stragglers are likely to drop off this time to the redemption rounds, right? Strategic voting seems to increasing over time, or that could just be my impression, but it would take a lot of vote wrangling to keep everyone around this time (somewhere, 10-15 CoG voters just muttered “challenge accepted” to themselves).

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  aweb

@17;

There are five holdovers, and they’ll probably need 7 votes to stay on the ballot, maybe 8 (there were 63 votes last time). Let’s say 70 people vote – that’s a minimum of 35 votes, in practice about 50 or more to be on the safe side. Foxx will get 60-65 by himself, so that leaves about 150 out of 210 total votes.

The big problem for the ‘bubble’ guys is that Dickey and Appling will also draw a lot of votes, so you’re probably right in that _someone_ is going to fall off the ballot.

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Dickey, Dean, Foxx.

brp
brp
9 years ago

I can live without any of the holdovers.
Foxx
Appling
Dickey

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
9 years ago

Although he probably won’t earn my COG vote, Spud Chandler deserves some discussion. He was a very good pitcher for the Yankees for about a ten year period in the 30s and 40s and definitely had one of those careers at which we can look back and say “what if?” He did not get to the major leagues until he was nearly 30 years old; he spent four years in college where he was a star football player, and later spent more time in the minors than he probably should have, because NY was so deep in pitching talent. Also,… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

JAWS… Catcher: 45.0 … Bill Dickey (7th) 33.5 … Roy Campanella (25th) First Base: 77.9 … Jimmie Foxx (3rd) 53.6 … Eddie Murray (14th) 49.2 … Harmon Killebrew (19th) 41.2 … Dolph Camilli (31st) Second Base: 54.8 … Roberto Alomar (13th) Third Base: Shortstop: 59.2 … Luke Appling (9th) Left Field: 47.6 … Joe Medwick (16th) 45.0 … Minnie Minoso (22nd) Center Field: Right Field: 50.8 … Dave Winfield (19th) Starting Pitcher (quite a few 1800s players on this list): 58.3 … Wes Ferrell (39th) 56.9 … Rick Reuschel (45th) 55.6 … Luis Tiant (51st) 43.9 … Dizzy Dean (109th)… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Luke Appling is the only player with an age 40+ season (1949) batting .300 with 100 walks. Who are the only players since 1901 with those career marks aged 40+? – Jimmie Foxx won his 3 MVP crowns in the 3 seasons that he led the majors in TB and RBI (the only times he led his league in either category). Since 1931 (when former MVP winners in both leagues became eligible to repeat), who is the only player to lead the majors in those two categories and finish outside the top 10 in league MVP… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug (or others) – Does Appling have the most age 39+ seasons with OPS+ of 100 or better? (qualified batting seasons only)

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Indeed he does, together with Sam Rice. Here are the players since 1901 with more than one such season. Rk Name Yrs From To Age 1 Luke Appling 4 1946 1949 39-42 Ind. Seasons 2 Sam Rice 4 1929 1932 39-42 Ind. Seasons 3 Dave Winfield 3 1991 1993 39-41 Ind. Seasons 4 Darrell Evans 3 1986 1988 39-41 Ind. Seasons 5 Honus Wagner 3 1913 1916 39-42 Ind. Seasons 6 Paul Molitor 2 1996 1997 39-40 Ind. Seasons 7 Carlton Fisk 2 1987 1990 39-42 Ind. Seasons 8 Reggie Jackson 2 1985 1986 39-40 Ind. Seasons 9 Carl Yastrzemski… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Johnny Cooney’s name caught my eye here. He’s the sort of player you don’t see anymore, but they showed up from time to time earlier in the game. You might call them ballplayers. After a few productive years they moved from the mound to the field, usually the outfield, where they performed creditably as well. Smokey Joe Wood and a guy named Ruth, Monte Ward in the early days. Cooney, like Wood and Ward, suffered arm trouble but had big league talent as a batter and fielder. Ruth? Who knows what kind of pitching record he might have established had… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

You can add Reb Russell to that list of pitchers turned OF. After A few successful years as a pitcher he went to the OF. In 1922 he set a record with 75 RBI in just 60 G. That ratio of RBI/G of 1.25 is the highest for all players with a season of 25+ RBI.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

In 1940 a 20 year old went 18 and 5 with a 2.62 ERA in D ball for St. Louis. Then he hurt his arm doing gymnastics in the offseason (I think).

His name was Stan Musial.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbits: Luke Appling has the two highest OBPs in a qualifying season for a 40+ years old player. His .439 at age 42 in 1949 is the highest and his .423 at age 41 in 1948 is the second highest. His 6 HR in 1936 with 128 RBI is the fewest for a player with that many RBI. Tony Cuccinello in 1945 lost the AL batting title to Snuffy Stirnweiss by .00009, the smallest such difference ever. Jimmie Foxx is one of two players that I could confirm to have a .300 lifetime BA after each and every AB… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Cuccinello’s White Sox played their final game on Sep 25th, a Tuesday, even though the season ran to the following Sunday and there were 5 unplayed games still on Chicago’s schedule (I guess you had to be there). At the time, Cuccinello led Stirnweiss .308 to .305, a lead that widened when Stirnweiss went 1 for 5 against the As on Thursday. But, two 3 for 5 games against the Red Sox on Sat and Sun were just enough for Stirnweiss to take the title (the Yankees also finished a couple of games short of a full schedule). Had Cuccinello… Read more »

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Is it Ed Delahanty

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

That was supposed to have a question mark at the end. I’ve confirmed that it does no good to type one after clicking “Submit Comment”. ;o)

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Ed would be the answer based on modern qualification standards. But, at the time, Nap Lajoie edged out Delahanty by two points, .378 to .376.

There’s another more recent player.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Finally, I think I’ve found it – Dale Alexander in 1932.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Alexander is the only one. And, he was 29, so not really what you’re thinking about when you say next-to-last season of a career.

The real end-of-career seasons don’t show up until the 3rd to last season when you have Lefty O’Doul (1932), Ted Williams (1958) and Pete Runnels (1962) as batting champs, all age 34 or older.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Alexander won the bating title in 1932. Due to the difference in qualifications for the title he qualified with 454 PA/392 AB. If the later rules of 400 AB or 502 PA applied then Jimmie Foxx would have won the batting title and also the triple crown. Alexander’s career ended prematurely in 1933 due to a badly burned leg resulting from an extended session in a diathermy machine.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Gene Desautels question: Dan Wilson, Gary Carter and Tim McCarver.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Correct.

Dan Wilson got his two in the space of two months play (Sep 1997 and May 1998). Oddly, both came in the bandbox that was the Kingdome and both against the Tigers. The second was a grand slam.

Another IPGS by a catcher was hit by Ron Karkovice in another indoor bandbox, the HHH Metrodome.

The only other IPGS by a catcher since 1961 was one of Tim McCarver’s, hit at the Polo Grounds against the Mets.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

George Caster’s mate has to be Jose DeLeon.

I’m shocked that Mantle didn’t match the Camilli feat. But he only had 100 RBI four times, never consecutively.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Correct.

DeLeon’s travails came in 1985, losing 18 of his 25 starts (72%), including his only CG. His Pirates were shut out in 7 of those starts and scored just once in 4 others.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Jimmie Foxx: I almost didn’t even check on him, because I thought, “No WAY would he have finished THAT far down-ballot…” but the answer is HANK AARON, 1960. Yowza.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I don’t know if Doug means that the question applies to former MVPs only but in 1963 Dick Stuart led the league in RBI and TB and finished 13th in the MVP voting

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago

Richard, re: Stuart — Doug asked for *MLB* leaders in RBI & TB.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Jimmie Foxx: I almost didn’t even check on him, because I thought, “No WAY would he have finished THAT far down-ballot…” but the answer is HANK AARON, 1960. Yowza.

I’m going to blame it on anti-Milwaukee bias, because George Scott finished 8th in 1975, and that’s pretty darn close to the same thing!

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Aaron is the answer.

Finishing ahead of the Hammer in the MVP vote were four players from the world champion Pirates (incl. winner Dick Groat) and three from the 3rd place Cardinals, plus Willie Mays and Ernie Banks. Four players on the 2nd place Braves plus another Pirate finished 10 through 14 on the ballot. Mays was the only player with a higher WAR total than Aaron.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Dick Bartell: I’m not sure I understand the syntax of your question, but I think you mean, “Two Giants have had one 6-WAR season since Bartell’s two; who are they?” If that’s correct, the answer is Chris Speier (1972) and Rich Aurilia (2001).

Dolph Camilli: Did anyone do it before Mike Schmidt, 1976-1977? I tried some players, but couldn’t find anyone earlier. But there’s gotta be, right? Mickey Mantle came THISCLOSE about a dozen times in his career, but never quite managed consecutive seasons of it. He had the most “close calls” of anyone I found.

John Autin
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I believe Doug meant that as Bartell was the 3rd Giants SS with two 6-WAR seasons, so there are three since then with one such season. Anyway, there is a 3rd, recently deceased.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

That was my meaning.

So, one more besides Speier and Aurillia.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The third must be Al Dark.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Indeed it must.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Schmidt is the answer.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

That is SO surprising to me! I would’ve thought that there would’ve been like half a dozen guys AT LEAST who did it in the intervening 40 years. I was pretty surprised by this. But it seems like getting that timing down is a lot harder than you’d think. Guys like Harmon Killebrew and Frank Howard and Mickey Mantle and a host of others came REALLY close, but just couldn’t quite manage back-to-back years. Fascinating question.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

As you say, harder than you might think. The only players since Schmidt to go back-to-back are:

Thome: 1996-97, 1999-2003
Bagwell: 1996-97, 1999-2001
McGwire: 1998-99
Delgado: 2000-03
Glaus: 2000-01
Sosa: 2001-02
Abreu, Dunn: 2004-05
Ortiz: 2005-07
Bautista: 2010-11

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: I’m not sure of this but is Stu Miller the answer to the Bobby Burke question?

Doug
Editor
9 years ago

Not Miller. He lost 10 in the 1967 season.

The group of pitchers are those with 5+ seasons of 10+ starts. The criterion is never losing 10 games in *any* season.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Billy Loes then?

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Correction.

The group of pitchers are those with 5+ seasons of 10+ starts, each with fewer than 10 wins and 10 losses.

The criterion is never losing 10 games in *any* season.

So, Loes is not in the group, as he had only two seasons with 10 starts and fewer than 10 wins and losses.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I’ll try once more: Sal Maglie

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

The Barber did it.

Sorry for fouling up the explanation.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Larry French question: Dizzy Dean, Lefty Grove

Doug: I could not find an answer to the Luke Appling question. The PI shows only Appling.

RJ
RJ
9 years ago

Is the question not “which players had a .300 batting average and 100 walks from their age 40 season onwards”? In which case the PI throws up Sam Rice and Ty Cobb in addition to Appling.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

RJ: I think you’re right.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Rice, Cobb and Appling are correct.

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Remaining quiz answers:

Bill Dickey question: last player/manager to catch and manage in same season – Elvin Tappe (1962 Cubs)

Spud Chandler question: only 400 IP pitcher since 1893 with better career W-L% than Chandler – Howie Krist .771 in 444.1 IP (1927-36)

Jumbo Brown question: pitchers with 250 career IP for Yankees and Dodgers and who pitched for both in World Series – Al Downing, Tommy John

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Has the Cuccinello question been answered? I found Kirby Puckett.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Sorry.

Yes, Puckett is the answer to the Cuccinello question of player with most PA over three years preceding final 3+ WAR season age 35+.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

And Krist’s nickname was Spud.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Appling, Foxx, Dickey

Abbott
Abbott
9 years ago

Winfield, Foxx, Murray

billh
billh
9 years ago

Foxx, Winfield, Dickey

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Double X, Appling, Eck. Wish I had extra votes for Murray and maybe Tiant.

JamesS
JamesS
9 years ago

Foxx, Appling, Alomar
3/4 of an excellent infield.

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Foxx
Dean
Dickey

Bix
Bix
9 years ago

Appling, Foxx, Dickey

Mike G.
Mike G.
9 years ago

Foxx, Reuschel, Ferrell

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Foxx, Appling, and Ferrell.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

French was a really good pitcher for a number of years but has been almost entirely forgotten. Like others in this era he lost some time to WW2- 27 years to be precise. I guess that he must have liked his new career and figured that coming back at age 38 would have been a bit of a long shot. And I’m trying to think of another hitter who had significant PA’s (like 1000+) in the majors before breaking out at age 29 like Camilli? Bill Robinson maybe- he didn’t hit his stride until he was 30 but he really… Read more »

Doug
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Edgar Martinez might be a good comp to Camilli. He had almost 1500 PA through age 28, including a couple of decent OPS+ years (in the 130s), but without much pop or production. He broke out at age 29, winning the batting title and leading in doubles. But, his first season with power and run production didn’t come until age 32, his first with 20 HR and 85 RBI, and the first of 8 seasons out of 9 with those totals (100+ RBI in 6 of those years; below 20/85 only in his age 39 season, a third of which… Read more »

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

French served aboard USS New York(#34 in your program-Axis vs. Allies).
Foxx Appling Dickey

Steve
Steve
9 years ago

Dizzy Dean, Harmon Killebrew; Jimmie Foxx

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Update, through Steve @66:

27 (100%!!!) – Jimmie Foxx
14 – Luke Appling
11 – Bill Dickey
5 – Dizzy Dean
3 – Kevin Brown, Wes Ferrell
2 – Everyone else among the holdovers, except Joe Medwick (0).

What an odd round so far. It’s still early, but it sure is shaking out weird already.

Artie Z
Artie Z
9 years ago

Foxx, Murray, and … Ferrell (of the guys on the bubble, he’s the only one who interests me).

Appling and Dickey appear safe for now, unless there is a huge surge of voters or vote changes.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Appling, Dickey and Foxx

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

Foxx, Killer, and Campy

PP
PP
9 years ago

Foxx, Killer, Murray

Starting to doubt Killer will ever get in.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Alright, truths of life. 1) Foxx should and will win. I feel compelled for integrity purposes to at least vote for the best candidate on the ballot. 2) Dickey is every bit the equal of Yogi and Piazza and I think belongs. That said, he’s not going to win and I’m not sure he needs my vote. 3) Appling is above my borderline of Murray but barely and that includes a big help from his 1943 “best season” with inflated wartime RBAT. I wouldn’t feel that bad if he dropped off but he’s still better than Winfield even ignoring Winfield’s… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Well I didn’t add in any compensation for Appling missing time in ’44 and ’45 so he’s more clearly a no brainer. Meh, he’s not going to win and doesn’t need my vote.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

It’s nice to have some time for the holidays at home. I wrote some excel VBA code that takes WAR as an input and can figure out the best WAR for a given N year period and also shows Dr. Doom’s method of best seasons sorted together and then averaged in a similar manor. I’ve taken to liking the combination of the N consecutive years and the ideal sorting. Hopefully this posts without imploding something for invalid characters… Sub nyearparser() Dim sh As Worksheet Set sh = ActiveSheet ‘inputs sh.Cells(1, 1) = “Year” sh.Cells(1, 2) = “WAR” startrow = 2… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

My two COG Borderline candidates are Eddie Murray (4.64) and Rick Reuschel (4.85) for position players and pitchers. Steady Eddie’s normalized Dr. Doom sort barely even helps him he was such a consistent guy with a gradual decline. Appling without any wartime compensation (I would tend to want to throw out 42 to 45 and replace them all with some kind of average as we discussed previously) gets a 4.92 score. He’s a 4-5 WAR player for years immediately before and after the war. Using 4.5 WAR for 42-45 raises his composite score to 4.99. He played a lot of… Read more »

bells
bells
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Wow, that’s some seriously fantastic work. I totally get what you’re doing, and appreciate how comprehensive it is. Thanks alot for expounding on your methodology in the last few weeks, it’s really cool to see different posters’ evaluative methods.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Campanella, Tiant, Winfield

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

And there’s the end of Foxx’s bid for 100%. This is REALLY late in the process to go. I’m not going to research all previous rounds with shoe-in candidates, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Foxx is the first player to go over 30 votes at 100%.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

And he wound up being named on less than 80% of the total ballots cast which I would guess shows that there is a LOT of strategic voting going on- including my own vote change. And with a few really lean and one incredibly well stacked ballots coming up I think that’s probably a good thing. I’ll be amazed if anyone on the bubble makes it thru the gauntlet that starts in 1903: 1903- Gehrig, Warner, Dickey, Hubbel, Gehringer 1902- Simmons, Averill 1901 (2 parts)- Manush 1900- Grove, Hartnett, Lyons, Goslin, Bottomley Then we have a few years with several… Read more »

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Jimmie Foxx, Luke Appling, Rick Reuschel

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Minoso, Appling Foxx

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Amended ballot:

Jimmie Foxx
Luke Appling
Bill Dickey

Jeff B
Jeff B
9 years ago

Foxx, Dickey and Winfield

Tough not to vote for Murray, but he can afford to lose a round.
Didn’t realize Foxx has the best OPS for a RH hitter all time. He might be the best righty hitter ever.

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  Jeff B

Top 5 RH hitters of the live ball era (imho):
Hornsby
DiMaggio
Pujols
Aaron
Foxx

(Mays very close in the 6 spot.)

Speaking of RH hitters, Medwick is about to drop off with the ignominy of receiving no votes in his final round. Tough break for a guy who hit .324 and with power!

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  Jeff B

Maybe someone can answer me a WAR question. I was comparing Foxx and Gehrig through the lens of their Rbat totals and was intrigued by their respective 1936 campaigns. Gehrig clearly had the better year at the plate (ops 1.174 vs. 1.071), but that .100 difference translated into close to twice as many batting runs for Gehrig (88 vs. 49). They both played every game, had basically the same amount of PA, and, (surprisingly to me) had virtually identical tOPS+ (104/96 vs. 103/96). Both teams had terrific pitching staffs (the Sox had a pretty epic duo in Grove and Ferrell… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  paget

Here is my amateurish attempt to explain the batting runs difference between Gehrig and Foxx. I used B-R as a reference for my calculations. The first step in computing batting runs is to determine a player’s weighted OBA, identified as wOBA. By my calculations Gehrig’s wOBA was .507 vs. Foxx’s .473, a ratio of 1.074. Gehrig had more HR, BB and HBP. At that point the league wOBA is subtracted, scale factors are applied and a stat of wRAA is calculated. Gehrig’s was 96.27 vs. Foxx’s 72.55, a ratio of 1.33. Subtracting the league wOBA greatly affects the wOBA, wRAA… Read more »

bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  paget

paget: the biggest driver is just park factors. Gehrig was playing in a pitcher’s park (multi-year PF of 97 for hitters) while Foxx hit in Fenway (PF of 106). Just using those numbers to park-adjust their OPS’s, we get 1.210 for Gehrig and 1.010 for Foxx. So now it’s a 200-point OPS difference. League-average OPS in 1936 AL was .784. Since batting runs are based on the league average: Gehrig: 426 points above average Foxx: 226 points above average OPS isn’t directly involved in batting runs so this is just a quick ‘n dirty check, but you can see the… Read more »

paget
paget
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Interesting–if memory serves, during the kerfuffle over Whitey Ford, was reference not made to the advantage Ford would have had in not having to face his own (extremely potent) offense? I think I assumed that there were advanced stats that took quality of opposition into account for pitcher value. Is that not the case? As you say, it seems like there should be a measure for this, both for pitchers and hitters. If you’re a pitcher on the, say, 1927 Yankees, shouldn’t it work slightly against you that you don’t have to face Murderer’s Row? Likewise, if you’re a hitter… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  paget

So OPS is useful, but it’s nowhere near as good an approximation of value as batting runs. OPS+ is better, and the difference there looks much bigger (Gehrig 190 and Foxx 155). That’s after adjusting for park and scaling. There are three factors that make Gehrig’s OPS not display his true strength relative to Foxx in 1936. One is the park: yankee stadium a slight pitcher’s park and boston a slight pitcher’s park. The quality of pitchers is not relevant as the park factors adjust for that. If they didn’t, then having good pitchers would have actually helped Foxx’s adjusted… Read more »

Josh
Josh
9 years ago

I’m torn between five guys. Foxx, Dickey, Appling, Dean, and Winfield. Foxx has to be #1, he’s one of the best hitters of all time and i’ve always voted for who i feel is the best guy on the ballot. I feel Dickey belongs as #2 although Appling’s WAR and WAA stats are better (probably due to the Catching conundrum mentioned earlier). I don’t want Dean and Winfield to fall off the ballot as I want to keep voting for them. But i’m not sure i’m concerned because i’m going to have Dickey and Appling to vote for on the… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Merry Christmas; I hope it’s a good one for all of you out there. And for those of you who don’t celebrate, enjoy your time off work, get some Chinese, and have a great day, too! A Christmas vote update, trough Josh @85, which is 37 ballots into this thing: 36 (97.30%) – Jimmie Foxx 18 (48.65%) – Luke Appling 15 (40.54%) – Bill Dickey 5 (13.51%) – Roy Campanella, Dizzy Dean, Wes Ferrell 4 (10.81%) – Harmon Killebrew, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield 3 (8.11%) – Minnie Minoso, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant 2 (5.41%) – Roberto Alomar, Kevin Brown, Dennis… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Well I don’t want Dean on the ballot anyway, because he’s not even close to the level of pitcher that belongs in the COG, so I’d like to see him fall off. Winfield isn’t even in my first 10 out, but at least I see him as a reasonable candidate.

I’ll be glad to see Medwick off. He doesn’t belong. I don’t understand how Dean is even close to staying on with this difficult to survive ballot.

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Killebrew, Foxx, and Dickey.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Merry Christmas.

It gives me no pleasure in middle-age to be a contrarian, but I feel zero sense of obligation to vote for the best player. In fact, I’d love it if we didn’t vote Foxx in this week, and let him hang around to go up against Gehrig. But…

Fascinated by Wes Ferrell, can’t let him drop off.
And today I’m stung by the recent death of a good friend who left too soon, so I’m givin’ some love to longevity. That means Steady Eddie and Dave!
____________

Vote:

Wes Ferrell
Eddie Murray
Dave Winfield

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Foxx, Killebrew, Dickey.

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, Foxx, Dickey