“Was that a record?”

34 Replies

Those tuned in to ESPN for the almost-opener in Miami heard Dan Shulman say that the 2011 Cardinals had 9 different pitchers record at least 1 save.

What’s your gut sense — was that an all-time record? The point here is not to look it up (that’s my job!), but just to say what you think.

(By the way, Shulman was mistaken; only 8 different Cardinals got a save last year, and that includes the postseason, where Jason Motte got all 5 saves. But for the sake of discussion, let’s pretend he was right.)

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Luis Gomez

12 years ago

I think that during the early days of baseball, when saves were not an official stat, a lot of starters were used to save games, making it not unusual to have several pitchers with at least one save. On the other hand, staffs were smaller than today’s, so I have no idea 🙂 My guess is a few 70’s teams are close, but overmatched by last year’s Cards.

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John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Good points, Luis.

Tmckelv

12 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

the smaller staffs, like you said, (many teams didn’t even have 10 pitchers) and the much higher percentage of complete games would rule out the early years of Baseball (purely a guess by me).

oneblankspace

12 years ago

Off the top of my head, the 1983 White Sox won 99 games. Dennis Lamp was their leader with 15 saves (Salome Barojas had 13). They may have had more firemen with saves than the ’11 Cards.

(They also had a local telecast for the games in the ALCS opposite the network telecast.)

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

I thought I remembered the ’83 ChiSox pretty well … but I’d forgotten that a 40-year-old Jerry Koosman was in their rotation most of the year and picked up his 200th win.

Carlton Fisk’s 26 HRs that year made him the first catcher age 35+ to hit 20+ HRs in a season — a record he obliterated 2 years later with 37 HRs. Fisk remains the only 35+ catcher to hit at least 23 HRs in a season, which he did 3 times.

Timmy Pea

12 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

They shared the same manager as the ’11 Cardinals also!

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John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Timmy Pea

Nice!!! I was just thinking about how long it’s been since we had a MLB season without TLR in the dugout. He started managing: – before the Iranian hostage crisis; – before The Clash released “London Calling”: – 3 weeks after the Disco Demolition Night riot at Comiskey Park; – 2 weeks after President Carter’s “Crisis of Confidence” speech;* – when John Hiller’s 38 saves in 1973 were still the MLB record, and only 3 others had ever topped 35; – when Nissan was still known as Datsun; – when you could still buy a brand-new Ford Pinto right off… Read more »

Wine Curmudgeon

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

One can never have too many Clash references on a baseball blog.

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John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Wine Curmudgeon

It’s too bad Joe Rudi played before the era of personalized at-bat music at the ballpark. I would have loved to see him striding to the plate in a close game as the speakers blared:

You need someone for a saviour / Oh, Rudie can’t fail…

Timmy Pea

12 years ago

I found this fact amazing and hadn’t heard it before. The Rays committed 73 errors in 2011, the fifth-fewest ever by an American League team.

Hartvig

12 years ago

I’m going to guess that it’s not a record. Given the combination of 12 & 13 man pitching staffs, players getting sent down or called up, trades, etc. plus as easy as it is to get credit for a save- I’m thinking someone has had at least 10 different pitchers qualify.

Just on a whim I checked the Braves of the first half of the ’90’s.

In 1991 and ’92 both they had 8 different guys record a save- but they topped that in 1990, with 9 guys.

bstar

12 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Sorry to go off-topic guys, but for clarification Hartvig did you say Ray Narleski was your avatar pic?

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to bstar

Unless I’m very much mistaken, Hartvig’s avatar is the other half of the tandem, Don Mossi. As Josh Wilker noted: The most well-known rendering of Don Mossi, which includes the notion that Don Mossi was “the complete, five-tool ugly player,” comes from Bill James’ short article on the subject in his Historical Abstract, but while the “five-tool ugly” passage is hilarious, I prefer some earlier sentences in James’ piece, when he simply peers directly into the face of Mossi and describes what he sees: “Mossi’s ears looked as if they had been borrowed from a much larger species, and reattached… Read more »

bstar

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Thanks for the great words by James….and the clarification. My brain gets slow when my evening dose of thorazine kicks in.

Hartvig

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I actually have a clear memory of opening a pack of baseball cards as a kid and thinking: “Man, is that guy ugly!”

I have to admit that he wasn’t a particular hero of mine as a kid, even though he was a pretty successful starter for the Tigers about the time I started following baseball, because at that age I was more taken by offensive players like Cash or Kaline.

It was the Bill James’ quotes that John refers too that got me thinking about him again.

bstar

12 years ago

I’m sensing that you already looked it up, John, and it’s not a record. Gut sense? I’m kinda 50/50 on it, to be honest. I can’t remember when the save stat became official(late 70’s?). Sure, they used bullpens differently back in the 70s but starting pitchers got more CGs back then, too, so I’m torn.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to bstar

I have looked it up, but only after I posted.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to bstar

I’m about to shut down, so … No, it’s not even close to a record. Three teams had 12 different men record a save, though just one — the ’73 Rangers — did it after the Save became an official stat.

The others with 12 were the 1959 and ’61 KC Athletics.

The high this century is 10, by the 2008 Mariners and 2003 Red Sox.

And for the record, my gut sense was way off; I guessed the record was 10. The moral: Never underestimate the chaos that is produced by an awful team with 3 different managers.

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

And yet that chaos featured a HOF manager and another who probably should be in the HOF.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Ed

“Crisis = Opportunity”

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

The 1959 and 1961 Kansas City A’s set the record. In 1962, they signed a 17-year-old named… Tony LaRussa. The next year, they signed another 17-year-old named… Dave Duncan.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

Oh, excellent!

Tmckelv

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Unbelievably the early 1970’s rangers came to mind because i was thinking they had 1 good season in there when they weren’t typically a good team – I am not sure if that was even 1973 though. one of the Billy Martin teams. I was thinking early 1970’s as I mentioned down below when I went on my Big Red Machine discussion. and then thinking of a team with a lot of wins that wasn’t used to winning so they might not have had a set bullpen. My thinking could not have been more faulty as the 1973 rangers only… Read more »

Editor

birtelcom

12 years ago

PI also tells us that 43 teams have had 10 or more pitchers with a save during a season. And that two teams, the 1968 Angels and the 1965 AL pennant-winning Twins, had nine different pitchers with more than one save.

kds

12 years ago

The save became an official stat in 1969, almost identical to the rule today. Later, people went back and figured saves going back to the beginning of ML history. The rules used were broader than in 1969, most games in which the winning pitcher was not the last pitcher for the winning team would result in saves. We have to remember that even the fireman role, before the closer role, was fairly recent. Before the 1960’s teams frequently did not concentrate their most important relief outings to one pitcher. Of course earlier the relief ace was just the ace. Christy… Read more »

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John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to kds

Side note: The “save” was part of the baseball lexicon long before it became an official stat, and pitchers’ save totals were referenced.

I was just rereading Richard Donovan’s famous 1953 article on Satchel Paige from Collier’s magazine, and he frequently mentions saves (without feeling the need to define it), and says Satch had 10 saves in 1952 — the same number given by B-R. And a check of the box scores shows that all 10 of those saves met the current definition.

Tmckelv

12 years ago

Note: I am writing this prior to reading any comments in case the answer is written already. So please ignore if redundant/ridiculous. The record would probably come from a time period when there were a lot of relievers used but before the closer era (sometime in the early 1970’s). A team with a lot of wins but not a lot of complete games (Captain Hook – Sparky Anderson). I don’t really have concrete examples, but I am thinking Early Big Red Machine – although I do know Clay Carroll led the NL in Saves one year. Also, this thinking is… Read more »

Hartvig

12 years ago

Reply to Tmckelv

The wins part especially doesn’t seem to correlate at all. My guess of the early ’90 Braves was right in ’91 & ’92 when they were winning but they had even more in ’90 when they were dead last and only won 65 games. I’m sure by now you’ve seen the answer but I’m guessing those early Kansas City and Texas teams didn’t win a lot more than that either. I imagine the moral of the story is: if you’re going to win with a crappy bullpen you’d better have some pretty decent starting pitching. Your mention of Captain Hook… Read more »

topper009

12 years ago

I would like to chime in about the telecast…it was terrible. In the first inning Berkman had a close tag play on his double, no replay. Next inning, close pickoff play, no replay. Later on, I forget who but someone hit a little nubber up the 1B line, Kyle Lohse waited for it to go foul but when he touched the ball it was CLEARLY fair from the replay. The ball was blocked by Lohse’s leg so I think that’s why the ump missed it, but no one in the booth even mentioned it…it would have been the first hit… Read more »

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to topper009

I did not listen or watch all of the broadcast, but that sounds like a good, objective critique. Still, I’m a big fan of Hershiser in the booth, and I think Francona has a lot of promise.

The theory that if it was a record, they would have mentioned it is generally sound — but it goes out the window once you realize he was wrong about the number.

topper009

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Good point, if it was true it would have been the first time I actually learned something about baseball while watching anything on ESPN.

Strasburg will be on WGN later today

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to topper009

Let’s hope he’s not in Dr. Jobe’s office tonight.

bstar

12 years ago

Reply to topper009

Topper, I too was yelling at the TV when they didn’t show an extra shot of Berkman’s great slide. I still don’t know if he was actually safe.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

For lack of a better place to put this … I’m listening to the Mets pre-game introductions, and they just introduced their entire clubhouse staff, including 4 members of the training staff. All were met by something between dead silence and a whisper of boos, except the massage therapist, who was cheered lustily — either because of the absurdity of introducing a massage therapist, or the fact that the title sounds just a little bawdy. At this point, we expect the Wilpons and their minions to do everything moronically. But introducing the training staff really drives home how far out… Read more »