Circle of Greats: 1931 Part 1 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 48th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This is the first of two rounds of voting for players born in 1931. Rules and lists are after the jump.

This first round of voting for 1931 birth year players is for those born in July through December of that year. The next round of voting will be for players born in January through June of 1931. This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes in this round of balloting.

As usual, this new group of 1931-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility (unless they appear on 75% or more of the ballots, in which case they win six added eligibility rounds). Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM PST Thursday, February 27th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM PST, Tuesday, February 25th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1931 Round 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1931 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 11 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility. The new group of 1931 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1931, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Frank Bolling
Joe Cunningham
Bob Skinner
Andy Carey
Sammy Esposito

Pitchers (born in 1931, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jim Bunning
Ed Roebuck

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Jeff Harris

10 years ago

Mantle, Matthews, McCovey

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Holy newcomers, Batman! It’s a little unfortunate we’re not going to get the head-to-head Mantle-Mays match-up I was hoping for (at least, I assume it’ll be the Mick for the win this round, Mays for the win in the next). Ah well. I’m also disappointed that Eddie Mathews will be a 3rd-ballot guy. But that’s how it goes, I guess. Mickey Mantle Eddie Mathews Ron Santo Just for curiosity’s sake, if you’re wondering who had the best best season, who had the best 2nd-best season, who had the best 3rd-best season (etc.) of everyone on the ballot, here’s the list:… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Mathews has some remarkable consistency, indeed. For ages 21-31 combined, his 79.1 WAR ranks 16th all-time. He was between 5.6 and 8.3 WAR each of those 11 years. Out of 31 players with 60+ WAR in that span:

— All but Mathews had at least one year with 8.6+ WAR.
— All but Mathews, Aaron and Cobb had at least one year with 5.4 WAR or less.

The age 21-31 spans for teammates Mathews and Aaron overlapped by 9 seasons, 1955-63. Still hard to believe that team took just one championship and two pennants.

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

1) Actually, Mathews didn’t seem consistent at all at the time. His stats ’56-’58 were in a kind of trough compared to what went before and after, although still impressive enough except for ’58 (120 OPS+, 77 RBI, .251 BA). 2) In 1956 the Braves finished 1 game out. In ’57 and ’58 they won the pennant. In 1959 they ended the regular season tied with the Dodgers, but lost the first two games in a 3-game playoff. Something that seems obscure to many now, especially the people at B-ref, for some reason, is that there were real playoffs in… Read more »

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

“Something that seems obscure to many now, especially the people at B-ref, for some reason, is that there were real playoffs in the National League four times before division play, and once in the AL.”

But these games/series, although “playoffs” in the literal sense of the word, have always been considered part of the regular season, which continues to be true in the divisional era (e.g. the Bucky Dent game, Mariners-Angels in 1995 for the AL West, Mets-Reds in 1999 to determine the NL Wild Card, et al.). So what would you have BB-ref do?

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Here’s a list of non-playoff playoff games in the divisional era – am I missing any?

1978 Yankees-Red Sox (AL East)
1980 Astros-Dodgers (NL West)
1995 Mariners-Angels (AL West)
1998 Cubs-Giants (NL WC)
1999 Mets-Reds (NL WC)
2007 Rockies-Padres (NL WC)
2008 White Sox-Twins (AL Central)
2009 Twins-Tigers (AL Central)
2013 Rays-Rangers (AL 2nd WC)

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I would have B-ref use a simple asterisk or footnote, as was done in most baseball reference works prior to the 1990s, to send the reader to a brief acknowledgement that there was something special about the season outcome. 1) People who know no baseball history need to be educated not simply in outcomes but how they were achieved. 2) Revisionist approaches to history do disservice to those who were involved in the events of past eras and blur, rather than clarify, our views of what went on. 3) No one living then thought Bobby Thomson’s shot in game three… Read more »

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I haven’t staked out any kind of position; I’m simply reporting on how things have been handled.

I believe the rationale for counting such games as regular season games is that a given regular season hasn’t been finished until the league champion (in the pre-divisional era) or all the playoff slots (in the divisional era) have been determined.

If you disagree with that line of reasoning that’s fine with me, but your disagreement is with MLB, not with me.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@80
Why not call those “non-playoff playoff” games tiebreakers.

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Re: B-R’s lack of tiebreaker notation — While I don’t feel as strongly as nsb, I do think it’s a shortcoming. MLB.com has a page listing all the regular-season playoff games, and I hate the idea that their site would do *anything* better than B-R.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/postseason/mlb_tiebreakers.jsp

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Sure, “tiebreakers” works fine, or “play-ins” might do, I suppose.

Another thing that ties these games to the regular season is that, as far as I know, teams are using their regular-season rosters, i.e. they don’t have to pare their expanded September rosters down to playoff size. (On the other hand, since 1995 MLB has been using 6 umpires for these games, which is a post-seasonish feature.)

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@99

There have been at least two regular season games which featured 6 umpires. They were the last two games of the 1949 season between the Yankees and Red Sox which determined the pennant winner. (If you only knew how long I’ve been waiting to bring that up.)

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@100 Richard Chester –

Well, then – glad to give you the opportunity! I didn’t know that, myself.

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

(79) Retrosheet has a special page for the Playoff Tiebreakers :

http://www.retrosheet.org/Playoff%20Games.htm

(100) Opening Day 1969, Yankees at Senators, featured five umpires

http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1969/B04070WS21969.htm or
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/WS2/WS2196904070.shtml

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@100 Richard – great knowledge! The audio for the second of those games has been uploaded to Youtube. The late inning excitement starts around the 1 hour 52 minute mark (alas the sound quality also gets a bit sketchy at this point).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LusedR304xI

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Richard @100 — Blessed are the patient!

And I predict you will now get at least two more golden opportunities this year to drop that little nugget. The floodgates have been opened.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@105

RJ: Thanks for the info but I had already obtained a tape of that game via Baseball Digest about 25 years ago.

@103: One of the 5 umpires at the 1969 game, Jim Honochick, was also present at the 1949 games. Honochick later made a famous beer commercial with Boog Powell.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

One of the funniest of a really clever string of commercials

http://youtu.be/Z8c6Ir2okLY

“Hey! You’re Boog Powell!”

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

@105: RJ: I listened to snippets of that 1949 game on Youtube. That recording is a bit longer than my tapes. But they both cut out an important piece of information. In the top of the 9th Bobby Doerr hit a two-run triple over Joe DiMaggio’s head. Immediately afterwards shifts in the Yankee outfield were announced, Mapes moved to center, Woodling to left and Bauer was brought in as the RF. No mention was made about DiMaggio. Joe had just recovered from a week-long bout of pneumonia and felt that he was still feeling some of its effects which prevented… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

One odd part of Mathews’s 1958 “off” year was a flukey, crazy-bad performance with RISP. In the prior 5 years, he clouted at a .320/1.094 rate with RISP, ranking 3rd in OPS (behind Williams and Mantle, ahead of Musial and Snider). But in ’58 he hit just .179 with 4 HRs and zero doubles in 117 RISP ABs. Out of 97 players with 100+ PAs with RISP, he ranked 96th in BA and 87th in OPS. And so in ’59, perhaps responding to those numbers and to poor performance by his table-setters, Fred Haney did something quite unorthodox: He batted… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

nsb — I think you meant 1958 rather than ’59 in your last paragraph, re: Braves winning despite off years by Mathews & Aaron. They both had monster years in ’59. Anyway, the ’58 Braves led the NL in OPS+ and were 2nd in ERA+. An extreme pitcher’s park hurt their batting numbers, but they were comfortably #1 in road scoring and OPS. In fact, they led the NL in road scoring each year from 1955-60, and in OPS+ each year from 1956-61. I don’t think there was ever a contending year where the pitching carried them — no offense… Read more »

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

1958—right.

The OPS+ business—yes, they led the league, but only because it was a down year for the league. Their 102 figure was the lowest they themselves produced in that run.

I’ll go halfway with you on the last sentence, but Red S, Logan, Mathews, Bruton, and Aaron still had down years for various reasons.

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

The reason Mathews’ 1958 season doesn’t show up as a down year by WAR is that his lower offensive output coincided with what WAR considers the best defensive year of his 20s by far.

Mike

10 years ago

Mickey Mantle (I used to work w/the granddaughter of the scout who signed him. My 1st question in her interview was “Are you related to Tom Greenwade?”)
Eddie Mathews
Sandy Koufax

(Apologies to Juan Marichal & Willie McCovey)

jajacob

10 years ago

Reply to Mike

6 degrees of separation. I have a Great-Great Uncle who had a daughter who married into the Mantle family. Didn’t find out until a few years ago. Instead of liking many teams and players, if I had known as a kid, I might have been a rabid Yankee fan

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to jajacob

Speaking of weddings … I recently learned that Yan Gomes, the first Brazilian MLB player, is married to Jenna Hammaker, daughter of 1983 NL ERA champ, Atlee Hammaker. I was curious about how they met, so I googled it — and stumbled upon their wedding website. I started poking around the pages, but it quickly became clear that it was a template that they never filled out. No wedding photos, no personal background or tale of their meeting, nothing. Nothing, that is, but a link to their gift registry at Bed Bath & Beyond. So, in case you’re wondering, Yan… Read more »

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Yeah, and what’s up with the stemless wine glasses? Taaaah-key…

On another note:
Percentage of 20 win seasons by African-Americans:

8.8 % 1947-2013 (32 out of 363 overall)
10.9% 1951-1990 (29 of 267)
16.5% 1965-1975 (18 0f 109)

In the second and third samples, I attempted to incorporate chronologically the “better” and “best” of the 15 pitchers….guys like Gibson and Jenkins (3rd above); then, more broadly, Newcombe, Blue, Stewart, Gibson, Jenkins, and some stragglers.

mosc

10 years ago

If you’re drafting every player at 18 years old who ever played the game, your #1 pick is Mickey Mantle. I don’t even think it’s that close.

Jeff B

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

Babe Ruth would be my choice. There has never been a better hitter (#1 in OPS+ by a wide margin) and he was a great pitcher (122 ERA+, top 100 all time). I don’t know how you would choose anyone else unless you are holding segregation against him.

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to Jeff B

Just a note, even accounting for segregation, there are very few players that have an argument to be better than Ruth, but I want to clarify something about that argument, since I tend to make it: It’s not about holding segregation against the great players of the pre-integration period. It’s about recognizing that the replacement level from pre-integration times is not as high because of how much talent wasn’t allowed to play. *Especially* before the 30s and 40s, the historical record demonstrates qualitatively, and statistics demonstrate quantitatively that the quality of typical opposition just wasn’t close to what you see… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

Michael, nice statement of the case for a pre-integration WAR discount. At the same time, I think that applies less to Ruth than to any other great of the segregated era, because his different-ness was such a big part of his greatness. Through 1931, Ruth hit more than twice as many HRs as anyone else. His slugging average was 22% more than anyone else with 5,000 PAs, and his OPS 17% greater. For sure, there were great sluggers in the Negro Leagues in the ’20s, like Oscar Charleston and Turkey Stearnes. And integration surely would have raised the replacement level.… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Of course Ruth would still be a titan and *the* seminal slugger. And under any reasonable adjustment he’d still look like it in the stats.

But looking purely at the stats, he could potentially fall behind a *few* other players. You can’t say “let’s make adjustments for everybody but Ruth, because he was so good.”

He was so good, that making signficant adjustments still leaves him as *arguably* the best player of all time. But it goes from obvious to arguable, in my reckoning.

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

Michael S: I think you overstate the general quality of Negro League players, although in fact neither you nor I nor anyone else really knows how good the competition was up and down the lineups and up and down the leagues over the years. My suspicion, however, is that the quality fell off substantially, and that the bulk of the players—I couldn’t guess what percentage, but well over half—were also “scrubs by modern standards” or less, and would have spent their careers in the minors, had the door of integration been open at the time. Or maybe not. But if… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

G.H. Ruth out homered every other team in the league in 1920 and 1921.

Plenty of good arguments to be made regarding integration and replacement level. I think you discredit the argument somewhat using the Babe.

Jimmie Foxx, Mel Ott, etc.
Okay.
But the Sultan was in his own league.

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

I’m certainly not saying that every Negro League player could have been a major leaguer, but the best of them would have been, and they would have been replacing the weakest players. The best clearly could compete not just at a major league level but at a hall of fame level, as we saw in the 40s and 50s. The second tier could certainly compete at a replacement-average level, and the rest would end up in the minors or nowhere, sure. African americans are/were about 10% of the population. So assuming that the talent is spread roughly equally, we’re talking… Read more »

JEV

10 years ago

Mantle, Koufax, and McCovey (Barely over Mathews)

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to JEV

I’m intrigued by the choice of McCovey over Mathews. If I may ask, why? Superficially, they are probably two of the most similar players I have ever seen in terms of batting numbers. McCovey played about 190 more games (an 8% advantage), but Mathews still wound up with over 400 more PAs (a 4% advantage). So I’m not really sure to say who played more. Let’s call it a wash. McCovey has a tiny edge in OPS+: 147-143. Even their slash lines, unadjusted, are ridiculously similar: Mathews: .271/.376/.509 McCovey: .270/.374/.515 Even their home run totals are eerily similar – 521… Read more »

Bix

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Koufax

oneblankspace

10 years ago

If we’re doing the front half of the alphabet born in 1931, Ernie Banks should be on the ballot.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Doug went by month of birth (Jan-Jun first, Jul-Dec second) rather than alphabet. It thru me for a loop at first too but I knew when I saw Bob Skinner that something must have changed.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I think, technically speaking, the official rules say it’s supposed to be alphabetical. But it’s just for fun anyway, and I actually think this method makes way more sense, as it’s more in keeping with the otherwise chronological COG. Good choice, Doug!

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Normally, with the number of players born in this year, we’d only do one round.

But, given the marquis quality of this birth year, made sense to split it up.

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Splitting it up chronologically has the effect of making both parts of the elections tough ones for the holdovers – if we’d gone alphabetically, this part would have been a relatively “open” election, with Banks the strongest new candidate, and thus perhaps an opportunity for some of the holdovers to build up additional rounds of eligibility.

But with Mantle and Mathews on this ballot, to be followed by Mays next time around, some of the holdovers will do well just to stay on the ballot. I’m not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, just noting.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks for the tip, David. That thought never crossed my mind.

Birtelcom didn’t give me any instructions on this round – I just noted (from his summary spreadsheet) that he wanted to split up the round. I assumed that was to avoid having too many marquis names in the same round. So, I looked for a way to split up Mays, Mantle and Mathews (who, of course, would be in the same round alphabetically), and this way seemed as good as any.

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

As I understand it, the purpose of the two-part elections is not to divide up the talent of any particular birth years, but rather to have more elections while the talent pool is deeper.

In any case, there’s no inherently “correct” method for dividing up the players; doing it by the calendar divided them into 2 less even parts than using the first half of an alphabetical list, but it doesn’t really matter how many non-serious candidates are on the ballot, none of them are going to draw any support anyway.

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

I want to elect most of our holdovers, but I like the idea of spreading it out. A holdover who could make it in over Ernie Banks was probably going to stick around and eventually make it anyway, and no matter how you split up this birth year it will stress the holdover list. We’re adding 3 slam dunks and a borderliner who will draw support. No matter how you do that it stresses the holdovers. And the idea of massing them in one round so that a holdover can get in, is counter to the whole goal which is… Read more »

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Hartvig @11,

Actually, I’m doing Jul-Dec first, to keep it strictly chronological.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Month of birth rather than alphabetical- clever. Doesn’t entirely prevent a bit of a logjam at the top but it does lessen it’s impact a little. Always have a hard time thinking of Frank Bolling as a Tiger because every baseball card I have of him is from his time with the Braves. Bunning is a little bit the same way even though I had started following baseball when he was still a Tiger- I think the only cards I have of him wearing a Detroit cap are league leaders- all of my individual cards of him are with the… Read more »

BillH

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Marichal

4th choice would be McCovey, but I would not have Edgar 5th (just to prove that I do not use the first letter of a players last name as my primary indicator of worthiness).

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to BillH

In other words, you’re no Matt Millen.

Gary Bateman

10 years ago

Mantle, Marichal, Santo

10 years ago

Mickey Mantle, Eddie Matthews, Sandy Koufax

Josh

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Marichal

J.R.

10 years ago

Bobby Grich
Craig Biggio
Sandy Koufax

Obviously, I am voting to keep two guys on the ballot…

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Ed Roebuck: “Apres moi, le deluge.”

The first pitcher to surpass 200 career games with no more than 1 start. And 300, and 400, and 450.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

You noticed the same thing on his stat page.

Some Roebuck moments in my post @22.

Francisco

10 years ago

Marichal, Mantle, Mathews

Author

Doug

10 years ago

For my customary tidbits on the lesser lights of the ballot. – Frank Bolling is one of a small number of players to lead his league in both sacrifice bunts and sacrifice flies, in different seasons (no player has ever done that in the same season). At the time, Bolling’s 387 PAs in 1964 were the 7th highest total of the live ball era for seasons with a batting average below .200. Today, 387 PAs is good for a tie for 44th highest total. – Joe Cunningham‘s 144 OPS+ for 1957-59 was 7th best in the NL (min. 1200 PA).… Read more »

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Joe Cunningham, in 1959—the year age and injury caught up to Stan the Man—was viewed by many (such as Harry Caray and Jack Buck, the Cardinal broadcasters) as the new face of the franchise. Bob Skinner looked almost anorexic—a word nobody had heard of back then—very tall and thin, and looked funny when he ran as well, but he was fast and could hit. One tidbit you might have included: Dick Groat won one MVP and finished second another time. Who thinks of him now? He was kind of a lesser Boudreau, slow of foot, but always there where the… Read more »

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Thanks for the insights, nsb.

Shortstops with 8 consecutive seasons of .275 BA, 20 doubles and 50 RBI
– Honus Wagner
– Joe Sewell
– Alex Rodriguez
– Derek Jeter
– Dick Groat

--bill

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Also, in 1961 Frank Bolling has more WAR than any other second baseman.

Andy

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Smoltz

koma

10 years ago

Sandy Koufax, Craig Biggio. Mickey Mantle

Low T

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Grich please

David Horwich

10 years ago

Martinez, Sandberg, Santo

Abbott

10 years ago

Biggio, McCovey, Mathews

ATarwerdi96

10 years ago

Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews, Ron Santo

Chris C

10 years ago

Mantle – for the win
Biggio – Because I always vote for Biggio
Edgar – to keep him on the ballot

If I was voting for my top three it would be Mantle, Matthews, Marical. I’m looking forward to going through the 20s as many of the holdovers will get in.

Andy

10 years ago

Mantle
Mathews
Koufax

bells

10 years ago

Doug, you broke my brain! I’m such a stickler for tradition that I had already written the stats of the alphabetical A-L crowd into my spreadsheet and ranked them, knowing we were due for a 2-part election and that birtelcom had always split it up by last name. Threw me for a loop to see Mantle and Mathews instead of Boyer and Banks. I like it! A pleasant surprise – going by birth month makes sense. At any rate, here are the players as ranked by 3 measures – WAR, WAA+ and JAWS. Cumulative ranking beside names – eg. a… Read more »

10 years ago

Jim Bunning put up 30.2 WAR in four years with the Phillies from 1964-67, his age 32-35 seasons, doubling his career WAR. Prior to 1964 he played for the Tigers, and he was traded to the Pirates ahead of the 1968 season. How does Bunning’s four-year stretch of form match up against all other great four-year periods in which a player played for different teams either side of it? So I’m looking for something like A-Rod’s time in Texas, where he was outstanding (25.6 WAR), but only there for three seasons in the middle of his career. Can Bunning be… Read more »

ATarwerdi96

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

The closest comp to what Bunning did (among pitchers) may be Gaylord Perry, who put up 29.0 WAR with Cleveland from 1972-1975. This was despite the fact that Perry was traded to Texas midseason in ’75, making 22 starts the rest of the way.

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Um … Babe Ruth, maybe? 45.1 WAR in his first 4 years with the Yankees.

Certainly not the biggest increase in production for the new team over the old team. But for most production with the new team, I don’t think anyone’s touching that.

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Sorry for not being clearer John: I meant a period which was bookended by appearances for different teams. So the player arrives at the new team, is phenomenal for a handful of years, and then leaves. Ruth doesn’t fit my criteria because he continued playing for the Yankees after that four-year stretch.

ATarwerdi’s example of Gaylord Perry with the Indians is the kind of drive-by greatness I was looking for. (Thanks ATarwerdi96!)

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Got it, RJ. I missed the end of your sentence. 🙂

bstar

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Roger Clemens had a two-year stint with the Jays where he put up 20.0 WAR in 1997-98, sandwiched in between his long stint with Boston and his time with the team in pinstripes. I have a hard time with Clemens as a Yankee–something was just visually wrong about it. I didn’t like him out there in Monument Park, pawing at the plaques of the great ones. Just seemed staged to me.

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Randy Johnson tallied 38.3 WAR in his first 4 years with Arizona. He had 23.6 WAR in his previous 4 years, and 43.5 over 11 prior years.

Joe Morgan’s first 4 years with Cincinnati: 38.1 WAR. Prior 4 years: 12.8 WAR. Prior career total: 27.0 WAR in 9 years.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

That was pretty much Bert Blyleven’s career. Stay for a few years, put up his usual solid numbers and move on. After starting with the Twins, it was Texas for 2, Pittsburgh for 3, Cleveland for 5 (really only 4 as one season was lost to injury), Minnesota for 4, before closing out with 3 in Anaheim.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

A close one is Curt Schilling – between stints in Philly and Boston, he managed 26.0 WAR in four years in Arizona.

Even closer is Kevin Brown. He was with Texas until ’94. He was with the Dodgers beginning in ’99. In between, he was with Baltimore for one year, Florida for two, and San Diego for one. He totaled 27.9 WAR. In the last three of those four, he totaled 23.6, which is just about the same yearly average as Bunning.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Koufax

10 years ago

Mickey Mantle’s stolen base percentage has me purring. After his rookie year, in which he went 8/7 in the SB/CS column, he nabbed an additional 145 stolen bases at the cost of only 31 caught stealings, only once being caught as many as four times in one season and good for an 82% success rate.

Of the 99 players with 300+ Runs from Batting only seven accumulated more value on the bases than Mantle.

10 years ago

Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews, Lou Whitaker

John Z

10 years ago

The M & M & M Boys of Summer

McCovey for the win……….or not

Mantle (who remembers when commish Kuhn banned the Mick and The say hey kid)

Mathews best Brave not named Aaron or Spahn

10 years ago

BTW, Doug, in the paragraph before the list of holdovers, you say there are 17 of them, but there’s only 11 thankfully!

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

Thanks. Fixed it.

Luis Gomez

10 years ago

During my childhood days, I was put to bed by my dad with Mickey Mantle, Roberto Clemente and Hector Espino stories. My old man is going strong at 70, and has been a Yankee fan for life, and he always considered Mickey Mantle to be his favorite player.

Having said that, My votes goes to Mantle, Marichal and Martinez.

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Looking for info on Hector Espino, I found this worth reading:

http://www.sbnation.com/longform/2013/5/21/4348250/hector-espino-mexico-baseball-home-run-king-profile

Luis Gomez

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

John, thanks for the link. That is an excellent article, very well written and a good summary of Espino´s life. For the folks in HHS who are not fammiliar with Hector Espino´s legacy, here´s my favorite story about him. There was a rookie who was about to face the Naranjeros de Hermosillo´s line up for the first time. Before the game he asked his manager how to face that powerful line up, and his manager begun to explain to him what kind of pitches should throw to them. The leadoff hitter is Zoilo Versalles -said the manager, he´s a contact… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Luis, I’m still laughing! I’ve heard a lot of baseball stories, but never that one.

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Santo

Jeff Hill

10 years ago

Mantle, Matthews, Santo

jajacob

10 years ago

Mantle, Matthews, McCovey,

RonG

10 years ago

Mantle, Grich, McCovey

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Vote:

Bunning
Koufax
Lofton

(That was my intention by the alphabetical 1931 part one method. Sticking with it. Mickey and Eddie will be fine without me.)

KalineCountry Ron

10 years ago

2nd favorite player the great Mickey Mantle.

Eddie Mathews.

Favorite Tigers pitcher from my youth and teen years Jim Bunning.

PaulE

10 years ago

McCovey
Sandberg
Grich

Obviously, Mantle and Mathews will be fine without me. Bunning lost FIVE 1-0 decisions in 1967 while going something like 17-15?

latefortheparty

10 years ago

Mickey Mantle
Eddie Mathews
Bobby Grich

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

It would be fun if 85% of y’all switched your votes from Mickey to your 2nd favorite holdover.
Let Mathews win this one.

So we can argue Mickey vs Willie next week.
Let’s party like its 1954 !

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Biggio — doubles
Mantle — switch hitter, hung around long enough that his career BA dropped below .300
Bunning — led the NL in shutouts twice during the Bob Gibson era

I also considered voting for Joel Skinner’s father and for Eddie Mathews, the only player to homer for the Boston Braves and the Atlanta Braves.

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

An interviewer was going to do some word association with Yogi Berra, say the first word that comes to mind.

Q: Mickey Mantle…
Y: What about him ?

ATarwerdi96

10 years ago

By my count (through 34 ballots), the votes are:
Mantle 29
Mathews 22
Koufax 9
McCovey 7
Grich 7
Santo 6
Marichal 5
Biggio 5
Sandberg 3
Martinez 3
Bunning 3
Smoltz 1
Whitaker 1
Lofton 1

Mike L

10 years ago

Don’t know where to plop this, but a photo of an early baseball game, 1862. https://twitter.com/BeschlossDC/status/437289812752879617/photo/1

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Very cool, Mike L! And the snow-covered field looks just like a modern MLB Opening Day!

aweb

10 years ago

Mantle, Matthews, Grich keeps my third vote for now.

TJay

10 years ago

Mantle, Mathews, Koufax .

Insert Name Here

10 years ago

Initial vote: 1. Mickey Mantle (8.8 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1952-64) 2. Eddie Mathews (7.4 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1953-65) 3. Ron Santo (7.0 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1963-72) Loose ranking of some others: 4. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 5. Sandy Koufax (7.8 WAR/162 during 6-yr peak of 1961-66) 6. Juan Marichal (7.1 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of 1963-69) 7. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 8. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 9. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99) 10. Willie McCovey… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Vote Change:

From

Bunning
Koufax
Lofton

Bunning
Mathews
Lofton

Kerry Robinson

10 years ago

Koufax
Mantle
Mathews

Mike HBC

10 years ago

Mathews, Mantle, Koufax.

…Yep.