Circle of Greats 1933 Results: Voters Give a “Hoot” for Gibby

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Bob “Hoot” Gibson has been elected as the latest inductee to the Circle of Greats. Gibson was a consistent winner over a 17-year career with the Cardinals, with 20 wins in 5 of 6 seasons (1965-70), 15 wins in 10 of 11 seasons (1962-72) and 12+ wins with a winning record for 13 straight seasons (1961-73). Gibson’s 251 career wins are tops for his generation of pitchers with their entire careers between 1955 and 1980.

As impressive as his career accomplishments are, Gibson is probably most remembered for an iconic 1968 season, and for his dominating post-season performances in three memorable 7-game World Series. More on Bob Gibson after the jump.

Gibson becomes the 46th player inducted into the Circle of Greats. He and Al Kaline led the voting from start to finish, each mentioned on more than half of the ballots cast. Among players introduced to the ballot in this round, only Rocky Colavito and Bob Shaw received votes. That allowed a number of players in their last round of eligibility to attract sufficient support to survive to the next round of COG balloting.

The full spreadsheet showing this round’s vote tally is here: COG 1933 Vote Tally. The vote summary for recent Circle of Greats voting rounds is here: COG Vote Summary 2 . An archive with fuller details of the earlier, 1968 through 1939, rounds is here: COG 1968-1939 Vote Summary . In both of the Vote Summary workbooks, raw vote totals for each past round appear on Sheet 1 and the percentage totals for each past round appear on Sheet 2.

Gibson’s 13 straight winning seasons with 12+ wins, plus 10 seasons of 15 wins, are both tops among his contemporaries in the 1959-75 period. His five 20-win seasons were second only to Fergie Jenkins and Juan Marichal. Included was his 1968 season, possibly the most dominant single season since the 60 feet, 6 inch pitching distance was established in 1893. Consider:

1.12 ERA – 1st since 1920; 3rd since 1893 (since 1920, 2nd place is Dwight Gooden‘s 1.53 in 1985)
258 ERA+ – 4th since 1920; 6th since 1893. in 275+ IP seasons: 1st since 1920; 2nd since 1893
0.853 WHIP – 4th since 1920; 11th since 1893. in 275+ IP seasons: 1st since 1920; 9th since 1893
13 shutouts – 1st since 1920; 2nd since 1893
32 straight 8+ IP starts (one season) – 1st since 1916

Despite a 1.52 ERA to start the 1968 season, Gibson’s record at the end of May was only 3-5, and he had had to labor hard for each of those wins, all in complete games of 9, 11 and 12 innings. But, Gibby was just warming up. For June and July, Gibson made 12 starts, pitched 12 complete games and collected 12 wins. Oh, and he allowed a total of 6 runs, including just 3 over the final 11 of those games in which he posted a microscopic 0.27 ERA. Those 11 games are the longest searchable streak, by 3 games, of starting a game and allowing one run or none, never mind getting a CG and a W each time.

On June 4th, 1968 Don Drysdale pitched his record 6th consecutive shutout. Two days later, Gibson started his own shutout skein that almost matched Drysdale’s feat, running off 5 consecutive goose eggs from June 6th to June 26th. Gibson went for shutout number 6 on July 1st against the Dodgers and … Don Drysdale. Alas, the suspense didn’t last long as the Dodgers plated a first inning run (the only one they would get) on a wild pitch. The run of 12 straight CG wins was part of a stretch of 20 starts (May 28 to Sep 2) that included 19 complete games; in the other contest, Gibson pitched 11 innings before being relieved, and would have had a CG victory but for a 9th inning game-tying home run from the most unlikely of players … Al Spangler (on the COG 1934 ballot), who had last homered more than 3 years before, on May 29, 1965, also against the Cardinals.

Gibson’s World Series heroics include 3 game starts in each of 3 different World Series, also accomplished only by Christy Mathewson. Gibby is alone in World Series annals with three game 7 starts and two game 7 wins. Those starts included two in consecutive seasons (1967-68), matching the tandem of Lew Burdette and Don Larsen in 1957-58. Gibson’s 7 consecutive World Series wins (all complete games) and 8 consecutive complete games are the most ever. Among live-ball era pitchers, only Red Ruffing also has 8 complete games, and only Whitey Ford also has 7 complete game wins, consecutively or otherwise. Gibson’s 1.89 career World Series ERA is 7th best since 1920 (min. 50 IP).

Quiz time: Gibson and Juan Marichal both retired after the 1975 season, and both had career winning records (of course) with more complete games than wins. Since then, only one pitcher has done the same – without looking it up, who is he?

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Paul E

10 years ago

Doug:
Jim Fregosi just left us for the big diamond in the sky. Below, SS WAR from start of career through age 28:

1 Alex Rodriguez 71.1
2 Arky Vaughan 59.6
3 Robin Yount 50.4
4 Cal Ripken 50.0
5 Jim Fregosi 45.0
6 Ernie Banks 42.5
7 Joe Cronin 40.1
8 Lou Boudreau 40.0
9 Travis Jackson 38.8
10 Alan Trammell 37.5
11 Derek Jeter 36.8

Regarding the CG question, w/o looking it up, it’s got to be one of Jenkins, Blyleven, Ryan, or Phil Niekro.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

None of those guys for the quiz answer.

Paul E

10 years ago

Doug:
If I used the PI correctly, I don’t believe anyone is going to “guess” the correct answer to your CG/W quiz….great piece of trivia, there.

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

I’ll guess.
Someone who was strong and whose career ended early.
I’ll go with:

J.R. Richard

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

or The Bird.
‘Cause I know JR won over 100.
Probably not him.
Fidrych is more likely.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Bingbingbing! Fidrych with 29-19, 34 CGs.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

It was the Bird.

Mark Fidrych’s career totals are a 29-19 record with 34 complete games. He was 19-9 with 24 CGs in his rookie season, and 10-10 with 10 CGs afterwards.

Mike L

10 years ago

If I had to guess, it would be someone amongst the Billy Martin burnout crew. Langford, Keough, McCatty, Norris

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Rick Langford did indeed have more CGs than wins, but he didn’t have a winning record. Langford’s career totals are a 73-106 record with 85 CGs.

Brendan Bingham

10 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Wouldn’t you love to give that Oakland foursome a second chance under the tutelage of a modern-day manager and pitching coach?

Luis Gomez

10 years ago

My guess is Fernando Valenzuela. He had a large amount of complete games early in his career, lead the league a couple of times (I´m probably wrong on that) and did not end up with 200 victories.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Good guess, but not Fernando. In fact, he had never had a season with more CGs than Wins, just one (1984) with equal totals.

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Since Doug brought up Complete Games, I’d like to throw this out: How long has it been since starting MLB pitchers completed most of their starts? … Or even more than half their starts? This is NOT a quiz; it’s very easy to look up on B-R, but the answers may surprise you. For as long as I’ve been a baseball fan (c. ’68), Grouchy Old Men* have said “{Star Pitcher X}” is not a star, and not a REAL pitcher – in MY day, REAL PITCHERS completed most of the games they started”. Well, it’s been a long long… Read more »

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Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

To Lawrence’s point, 25 years have gone by without a pitcher completing half his starts (min. 10 starts). These are the most recent pitchers to do this. Rk Player Year GS CG Age Tm G SHO W L W-L% IP BB SO ERA ERA+ HR 1 Bobby Witt 1988 22 13 24 TEX 22 2 8 10 .444 174.1 101 148 3.92 104 13 2 Roger Clemens 1987 36 18 24 BOS 36 7 20 9 .690 281.2 83 256 2.97 154 19 3 Fernando Valenzuela 1986 34 20 25 LAD 34 3 21 11 .656 269.1 85 242 3.14… Read more »

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug:

Look at that beautiful black ink – 293.2 293.2 295.2 288.1 IP!
Nowadays, if you get 300 innings from your 4 AND 5 starters, you’re doing great….

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Last year only the Tigers and A’s had a combined 300 innings from their fourth and fifth starters (with a handful of others coming close). But this is mostly because the regular fifth starter is a relatively rare breed – injury or incompetence usually puts paid to having just one guy start 30 games at the back end of your rotation.

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

I was at one of Soto’s complete game losses in 1983. Chuck Rainey still had a no-hitter when Soto was lifted for a pinch-hitter in the 9th. Then Milner singled with two outs.

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

LA: One of the phenomena that have killed complete game pitching is the obsession with pitch counts. When Jenkins or Gibson or even someone of the next half generation was pitching well in the later innings, no coach was counting the number of pitches thrown and saying, gee, we’d better warm someone up because we don’t want to wear down our ace. They were thinking, on the contrary, we want to win this game, and we’ve got no one in the pen who can do the job as well, as long as he keeps it up. Bill James is interesting… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

17/nsb, I agree that pitch counts have quite a bit to do with the decrease in CG, but if you look at my chart in #12, this trend has been in motion for a very long time,wel before aone had hard the term “Pitch count”. Enforced pitch counts started when – in the mid/late 90s? This also coincided with the offensive exposion of 1994-2009. If pitch counts were the main cause, then there would be a relatively flat plateau in CG% for a couple decades before that, then a fairly quick drop in CG% with pitch counts. Instead, there has… Read more »

bstar

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

It’s not just pitch counts / reducing pitcher abuse driving this. It’s also a better understanding of the fact that the more times batters face the same pitcher in a game the better they hit him. It’s harder to see the effect of 4th+ time thru the order in today’s game because the only pitchers who are allowed to pitch that deep into ballgames are the very good to great pitchers. And even then they’re only going that far on nights that they’re really on. The 4th time thru the order penalty is very strong. Using the Split Finder and… Read more »

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to bstar

bstar:

Except for the 1963 number, the 3rd-4rth variation here is minor, to say the least—that is, until you get to 2013 when the sampling is much smaller. The real leap early on is between 1st and 2nd, and later between 2nd and 3rd. Does that suggest that Stengel and Lopez were stupid not to have yanked their pitchers after the first time through the order, and Cox and Torre the second time? Blanket statistics have limited value in assessing what goes on in specific circumstances.

Stubby

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

I’m pretty doggone old, myself, but I’ve never agreed with my fellow “grouchy old guys” on the pitch count and the use of relief specialists. Most everyone my age–ALL they remember are the Gibsons, Jenkins, Seavers, et. al. Even as a young Stubby, I was always fascinated with the young kids coming up. So perhaps that is why I am one of the few who remembers the boatloads of young kids whose arms lay in the gutter. Gibson, Jenkins, Marichal, Seaver…they’re freaks. They are not the norm. John Glass, for example, was better than Nolan Ryan. They were coming up… Read more »

Mike L

10 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Nice to see so many of us who are going deep into the count commenting. Pitcher longevity is probably multifactorial. Overuse must play a role, as does mechanics and even luck. Teams develop training and use programs to fit the average pitcher. But, to Stubby’s point, I would bet that genes are decisive on both ends of the barbell. The group I run with on Saturdays includes people from their early twenties to sixties, and while the old people can’t keep up with the greyhounds, they aren’t bringing up the rear either. There’s a natural selection process that goes on… Read more »

Paul E

10 years ago

Lawrence Azrin: Men of merit exist in every generation; however, mankind in general prefer the meritorious of their own generation…..That being said, as a Grouchy Old Fart myself, I think there is a tendency to think of “aces” like Gibson, Marichal, Perry, or Jenkins as being somewhat “indicative/typical” of all their contemporaries and peers when, in reality, they may have completed better than 40% of their starts and the remainder of the rotation was nowhere as good. HOWEVER, now that teams are investing so much in guys like Cliff Lee, Sabathia, Hamels, Cain, and Kershaw, we’ll never again see even… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

@13/Paul E, Very well expressed. Following MLB for 45 years, I find myself entering Grouchy Old Man territory myself. Case in pint: I think the automatic “we have the lead in a save situation entering the ninth, therefor we MUST bring in our closer” policy is ridiculous. If a pitcher is pitching well in the 8th and leading, let him try to finish (but have a short hook). I also think you have expressed something better than I did: when the Grouchy Old Men said “real pitchers complete most of their starts”, what they REALLY MEANT was that the top… Read more »

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Off the top of my head the original NFL Baltimore Colts disappeared after the 1950 season.

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@18/RC;

The NBA repeatedly contracted in its first ten years:

1947-48: went from 11 to 8 teams
1950-51: went from 17 to 11 teams(!) I think that was after they’d absorbed most of a rival league.
1951-52: went from 11 to 10 teams
1953-54: went from 10 to 9 teams
1954-55: went from 9 to 8 teams

The NBA didn’t reach 17 teams again till the 1970-71 season. People forget how much the NBA struggled in their first couple decades.

Author

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

The NHL’s Oakland Seals/Cleveland Barons franchise folded after twelve seasons (1967-78).

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Much worse than “must bring closer in save situation” is the policy of *not* bringing in your closer for a high leverage situation that isn’t a save when the starter or whoever needs to come out. I mean, if you have two closer level relievers, then it may make sense to keep the standard situations for one guy and let the other guy be your fireman (such a couple years early in Rivera’s career when he actually pitched in higher leverage situations than their closer). But when you only have one bullpen guy that you really trust as much or… Read more »

Stubby

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

I would agree to that with one caveat. There are pitchers who do not perform well outside of their role. I’ve seen too many pitchers who are aces coming in in a tight situation with people on base who will surrender 10 runs when they come in with the bases empty in the eighth and a 3 or 4 run lead. I’ve seen some who don’t pitch well in a tie, too. But, strategically, that seventh inning jam may be where the game is won or lost and I want my best fireman putting out that fire. So long as… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to Stubby

Yeah, agreed, if you’ve got a guy who’s very comfortable and in control coming into an empty inning, but not in classic fireman situations, then maybe the traditional closer is the right role, but it’s should depend on your staff, and I have to think that most pitchers who can thrive as a classic closer could also do quite well coming in to fight fires in the 7th and 8th, and probably should be used that way at times. If relief pitchers were judged by WAR/WPA and not ERA/SV/SV%, it wouldn’t potentially hurt their careers to be used correctly.