Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #3

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This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility. This third “redemption round” (we also held such rounds after the 1960 and 1950 rounds of voting) gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates that have been rejected. Rules and lists are after the jump.

In this round you may include on your three-man ballot any player who was born between 1940 and 1968 and has neither been elected to the Circle of Greats nor is currently ballot-eligible in the regular COG voting. As usual, you must vote for three and only three to cast a qualifying ballot. The two guys who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of of COG voting. If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds, which are currently scheduled to be held once after every decade’s worth of regular induction rounds (after the 1930 round, the 1920 round, etc.) .

The lists of hitters and pitchers below show, in alphabetical order, the 18 hitters and 15 pitchers who have received at least three COG votes but have neither been inducted nor are on the current ballot. The numbers in parentheses are the number of votes the player received during regular COG balloting rounds. The names on these lists are only suggestions, they are not intended to be limiting: to repeat, you can vote for whoever you want among those born from 1940 through 1968 as long as they are not already in the COG or already on the regular ballot.

Position players born 1940-1968 who have received at least three votes in past regular COG voting (but are not currently eligible for the regular COG balloting and are not COG inductees):

Buddy Bell (3)
Andre Dawson (5)
Darrell Evans (3)
Dwight Evans (19)
Bill Freehan (3)
Keith Hernandez (3)
Jeff Kent (10)
Don Mattingly (12)
Fred McGriff (13)
Dale Murphy (6)
Graig Nettles (10)
Kirby Puckett (3)
Willie Randolph (4)
Ted Simmons (12)
Reggie Smith (4)
Gene Tenace (4)
Dave Winfield (53)
Jim Wynn (4)

Pitchers born 1940-1968 who have received at least three votes in regular COG voting (but are not currently eligible for the regular COG balloting and are not COG inductees):

Kevin Brown (31)
Dennis Eckersley (9)
Rollie Fingers (3)
John Franco (3)
Rich Gossage (13)
Ron Guidry (3)
Trevor Hoffman (6)
Catfish Hunter (3)
Bill Lee (3)
Mickey Lolich (3)
Dan Quisenberry (4)
Rick Reuschel (23)
Dave Stieb (8)
Don Sutton (11)
Wilbur Wood (4)

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Friday night, November 29 at 11PM EST. You can change your votes until 11PM EDT on Wednesday night, November 27. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here:COG Redemption Round 3 Vote Tally.

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Jeff Harris

11 years ago

Dave Winfield, Kevin Brown

Chris C

11 years ago

Reply to Jeff Harris

You get to vote for three. Only two will advance.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Chris C

Indeed, the rules require a ballot have three names in order to count.

donburgh

11 years ago

The lists both say ‘born 1950-1968’

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to donburgh

Thank you. Fixed.

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jim Eisenreich

Spoiler alert! Here’s what my Redemption Round #4 vote will be:
Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jim Eisenreich

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

11 years ago

Brown, Eckersley, Mark McGwire

Mike

11 years ago

Winfield
McGriff, and one of the best men ever, not limited to baseball & a guy whose stats compare very favorably with Bruce Sutter (w/o the WS moment or the development if a new pitch)

Dan Quisenberry

koma

11 years ago

Mark McGwire, Dennis Eckersley, Trevor Hoffman

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Kevin Brown, Dawson, Dwight Evans

JEV

11 years ago

Brown, Stieb, Dwight Evans

Nick Pain

11 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Dwight Evans, Graig Nettles

Chris C

11 years ago

1) Dennis Eckersley – we need a closer on this team. Hmm. Will we do a 1969 vote now that Rivera has retired?
2) Craig Nettles
3) Rick Reuschel

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to Chris C

I was promised 1969 at the 1 year anniversary of the 1968 round.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to mosc

And that is still the plan. We started the first vote on December 9 last year.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Reply to Chris C

I would guess that Randy Johnson could fill in as the closer. I mean, if Chapman can do it certainly Randy Johnson can, right? And as much as I respect Rivera for what he has done on the field and what he hasn’t done off of it (by that I mean I can’t remember him being tied to ANYTHING negative), he’s only the second best player born in 1969. Now he’s way ahead of the 3rd best (whoever that is – Juan Gonzalez or Alex Fernandez or whoever), but I would guess that Junior gets voted in ahead of Rivera.… Read more »

brp

11 years ago

Winfield, Reuschel, Reg. Smith

KalineCountry

11 years ago

Bill Freehan
Fred McGriff
Dave Winfield

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

A tough one. But I still have Kevin Brown as the highest-ranking player to miss COG election, so I’m voting for him (as I have in all of the redemption rounds). Narrowly missing my vote is Andre Dawson. I’m sad that I can’t vote for him.

Kevin Brown
Rick Reuschel
Graig Nettles

Dr. Remulak

11 years ago

Mattingly, Winfield, Hoffman.

JasonZ

11 years ago

Mike @6 is correct. On September 1, 1979 my dad took me to Yankee Stadium to see the Yankees play the Royals. A glance at the box score reminded me that Jim Spencer hit his 16th homer that Saturday afternoon, which I remember like it was yesterday. It also revealed that Rich Gossage pitched the final two innings, allowing 2 harmless hits and striking out 6. This, I do not remember. What it cannot reveal is a 12-year-old Yankee fan during Royals batting practice on the 3rd base side. Hoping to get an autograph. Only one player signs. And he… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Good story, thanks. Quiz as a person certainly does seem to be fondly remembered to an extraordinary degree.

Bix

11 years ago

Dwight Evans, Kevin Brown, Dave Winfield

The Diamond King

11 years ago

McGwire, Eckersley, Winfield

11 years ago

Quisenbery, Eckersly, Reuschel

David Horwich

11 years ago

Dwight Evans, Nettles, Winfield

I also considered Brown, McGwire, Randolph, and Reuschel.

Josh

11 years ago

Mattingly, Winfield, Gossage

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Josh

28 Yankee seasons on that ballot.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Looking at who I have voted for or thought hard about in the regular rounds…

Fingers
Quisenberry (Thank you to all my starting pitchers who could not go 9 innings, and my manager who would not let them)
Lolich
Wood
Da.Murphy
Da.Evans

Players I saw play in person on this list
Quisenberry
Mattingly (hit a HR)
Dawson (hit a HR when I was under the stands)

[X] Quisenberry
[X] Da.Murphy
[X] Fingers

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

This is really hard.
Six members of the 1983 Yankees on the suggested ballot and I probably wont vote for any of them. Consulting the coffee oracle, be back later…

--bill

11 years ago

Graig Nettles.
Rick Reuschel.
Kevin Brown.

mosc

11 years ago

Winfield
Nettles
Sutton

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

– Dave Winfield
– Dwight Evans
– Mark McGwire

11 years ago

Jamie Moyer, Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to wx

Are we sure Moyer is retired? 😎

ATarwerdi96

11 years ago

Dwight Evans, Reggie Smith, Rick Reuschel

Gary Bateman

11 years ago

Sutton, Winfield, Eckersley

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

There are 20 players listed above that, in my opinion, are legitimate candidates for COG discussion. Plus the write-ins. Many of them disappeared in a one-and-done. Almost all of the 60 or so consistent voters are carrying dedicated holdover votes from year to year. The field of competition is getting bigger. This is the hardest vote yet, to me at least. I want to vote for all of these guys: Buddy Bell Willie Randolph Kevin Brown Rick Reuschel Dennis Eckersley … Brown over Reuschel for peak. Willie over Buddy because I saw him play, and have a sense of his… Read more »

Brendan Bingham

11 years ago

Dwight Evans, Hernandez, Nettles

11 years ago

Kevin Brown, Rick Reuschel, Graig Nettles

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

So I’m going to be taking EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE, that is eligible into account for this one. This was a difficult decision. To save us from a list of 50+ candidates, I won’t be listing my full “ranking of other candidates” in this and future redemption rounds, but only some other choices, since I suppose they could come into play later. Initial vote based solely on merit: 1. Kevin Appier (7.0 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1970-77) 2. Dave Stieb (7.0 WAR/162 during 6-yr peak of 1980-85) 3. Bret Saberhagen (6.8 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of 1985-91) Top… Read more »

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

Shout-out to you, INH, for making me re-think my ballot. I didn’t end up making any changes, but thanks for making me reconsider Appier, Saberhagen, and Bando, about whom I had forgotten. Thanks!

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

Saberhagen is the youngest starter to win a World Series game. Even younger than Gooden.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

oneblankspace: How did you get your info? Gooden never had a WS win and Saberhagen was preceded by Bullet Joe Bush, Jim Palmer, Fernando Valenzuela, Madison Bumgarner and Chief Bender in that order by yungest..

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Maybe I’m misremembering and it was Start a WS game. Playing with the free version of the play index, Saberhagen is the youngest with 2 CG-W in the World Series, and the youngest to start Game 7.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Your second sentence is correct. Chief Bender had 2 CG at a younger age but he won only one of the two.

Doug

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

The youngest to win a WS game is Frankie Rodriguez, game 2 in 2002, with 3 scoreless innings in relief.

Saberhagen is the youngest to start a game 7, and to win a game 7, and the youngest to win any deciding WS game. Chief Bender is the youngest to start and to lose a deciding WS game.

Steve Avery has the most WS starts (4) before his 23rd birthday. Waite Hoyt has the most WS CG (3) and IP (27) for the under-23 set.

RonG

11 years ago

Ted Simmons
Ron Guidry
Dwight Evans

Jeff B

11 years ago

Winfield, Sutton & Dawson

IMHO, Winfield and Sutton are clearly the top 2 in the pool.

bells

11 years ago

Wow, I’m liking the redemption rounds even better than the elections; this is interesting stuff, arguing guys on the margins. If anything dispels the lazy characterization of sabermetrically-inclined folks as robotically ranking players based on a single number, it would be something like this. I think we should have redemption rounds more often! It’s interesting to me to look at the top 20 eligible-for-redemption in terms of WAR. In descending order: 1. Rafael Palmeiro – higher WAR than 8 elected members of the CoG, and but for Whitaker (and guys introduced this round), higher WAR than any holdover on the… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to bells

What sets Palmiero apart from the rest of the steroid gang is that he was brazenly wagging it in our face. It’s one thing to gain the competitive edge on the field. A lot of guys did that. But Palmiero was the only one who we had to watch brag about it when we went to commercial. I think the subconscious process of the average American guy when considering Raffy is something like: “Really dude? You’re a world class athlete, and you were taking drugs to bang your wife? And you’re getting paid extra millions to tell us about it?… Read more »

bells

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Yeah, he was definitely a weiner. Funny how that sticks in our craw enough to discount him. I mean hell, Pete Rose, who was a huge asshole and gambled on his own team, and has a mere 7.6 more WAR than Palmiero, got voted in without much difficulty. Raf didn’t even get more than 2 votes, let alone stay on the ballot. I almost feel sorry enough for the guy to vote for him. And then I remember that ‘stache, and think the key word is ‘almost’…

no statistician but

11 years ago

Reply to bells

bells: I think the true word that applies in the case of Palmiero—other than something like ‘revulsion’—is ‘uncertainty.’ In 1988 the Cubs had two young candidates for the first base position, Palmiero and Mark Grace. In 1988-90, Grace hit 7, 13, and 9 HRs. Palmiero, who was traded to Texas after the ’88 season, hit 8, 8, and 14. Grace’s OPS+ for those years: 119, 139, 110. Palmiero’s: 126, 121, 104. Grace went on to play 2245 games, almost all of them at first base, Palmiero went on to play 2831 games, 2139 at first base. Grace’s career was consistent… Read more »

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Eckersley, Stieb, Gossage

oneblankspace

11 years ago

As I type this comment, columns N and Y (r.smith and reg.smith) on the spreadsheet seem to refer to the same player.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Thanks, obs. Fixed.

Miller

11 years ago

In terms of redemption, I’m interested most in the criminally under-appreciated:

Kevin Brown
Rick Reuschel
Keith Hernandez

I’m pretty surprised Hernandez doesn’t get more love around here. If we’re to trust the DRA work of Michael Humphreys, which I do, Hernandez may be among the dozen or so best 1B ever to play the game.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to Miller

KHernandez was in the clubhouse opening a beer while Buckner was booting that routine ground ball.

Miller

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

As a Red Sox fan, that made me want to drink too. Hernandez had it right.

In all seriousness though, that’s an example of jerkiness, not stinkiness. One day in 1986 can’t really be why Hernandez doesn’t get the respect for his career exploits, right?

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to Miller

You know what I would argue is criminally under-appreciated? Playing with one hand, no hearing, or Tourette Syndrome. But that’s just me.

bells

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

sure they are, and actually as a come-lately baseball fan I really appreciate you highlighting these guys and their careers, because other than a passing understanding of who Abbot was, I didn’t know anything about them. But this is a stats site, so it’s understandable to me that people talk about being ‘underappreciated’ in terms of stats first, and maybe perseverance as a more peripheral thing.

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to bells

I don’t really highlight them here as an argument that they deserve to be in the CoG or have any other “enshrinement” that actually relies on playing ability; they’re all in the Shrine of the Eternals, and that’s where they belong. But nobody who comes out of a Redemption Round is ever going to make it to the CoG; sure, Kenny Lofton might still be on the ballot, but he’s never come within a dozen votes of winning. In that regard, Jim Abbott is about as likely as Ted Simmons. So, I consider this entire redemption process a bit pointless,… Read more »

bells

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

ah, I see. I get what you’re saying. About your proclamation re: redemption rounders getting elected – I think things are likely to change once we get through the 30s. The guys that get back on for this vote are going to be slaughtered, no doubt. But there’s much less depth of top-level talent in the pool of players born pre-expansion. I’m willing to wager that by the time we get to 1915, Lofton and Martinez (former redemption rounders) will both be in. And it wouldn’t surprise me if up to 5 names on the redemption ballot get in eventually.… Read more »

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

I’m guessing that nobody who ever came from a redemption ballot gets there, but I suppose we’ll find out in a few months.

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

– Dave Winfield
– Dwight Evans
– Ted Simmons

Andy

11 years ago

Simmons, Winfield, McGwire

jajacob

11 years ago

Dave Winfield, Dwight Evans, Don Sutton,

How did DW end up with negative field rating and all those gold gloves? His arm was amazing (didn’t he kill a seagull?), Before I looked up his Career WAR I was sure he was going to be in the 80’s.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to jajacob

Well, he killed the seagull on one bounce.

But as a bleacher creature from 1987-1990, I call baloney on Winfield’s negative rating. I’ll concede that maybe he looked better than his range, because an enthusiastic 6’6 frame is fun to watch – but maybe doesn’t get up to full speed very quickly. But yes, his arm was fantastic.

paget

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Funny, I hadn’t checked in with HHS for a month or so, and the week I return I find we are picking up where I had last left off; conversation about dWAR and Dave Winfield. Seems to me that a great many of us think dWAR does a lot of violence to Winfield’s defensive talents. It also seems like a fair amount of readers think that Winfield suffers mostly as a function of his remarkable longevity; he stayed productive as a hitter for so long that his defensive statistics were bound to suffer as he entered his mid-30s and beyond.… Read more »

paget

11 years ago

Reply to paget

By the way:

Sutton
McGriff
Winfield

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to paget

The “glove alone” is a bit misleading, because of how dWAR is calculated. Most of his negative fielding rating is the positional adjustment (-135 runs), which he has no control over. SOMEONE would have been playing out there, and no matter WHO it was, it’s the same cost in terms of number of runs. So on that sense, DW only cost his teams 91 runs, which, over 24 seasons is bad – but not THAT bad. He basically cost his teams one run every 27 games in the field (that is, excluding his games as a DH). I’m betting it’s… Read more »

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Interestingly, I decided to look up a bad defensive player. That player was Dante Bichette – who ALSO has an Rfield of -91, but in 900 fewer games on the field.

paget

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Hmm.. So if a rightfielder has an Rfield of 0 he still would have a negative dWAR based solely on his position? Doesn’t that seem … I don’t know … weird? Basically it means that if you are an absolutely average rightfielder defensively relative to your peers you are costing your team games. How is that possible? That seems to counter to the entire spirit of WAR. If you are performing at the same level as you peers how can you be adding or costing your team victories?
There must be something I’m missing here.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

paget at 74: The fact that dWAR is negative does not mean a player is costing his team games compared to a replacement player. That’s because WAR is not oWAR plus dWAR. oWAR and dWAR are not components of WAR. WAR’s components are batting runs compared to average, fielding runs compared to average, baserunning runs compared to average, GIDP runs compared to average, then a positional adjustment and then an adjustment for playing time to reflect an adjustment from comparison to average to comparison to replacement level. oWAR is the offensive components added up plus the positional adjustment, dWAR is… Read more »

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@74: No, paget, you’re NOT costing your teams games just by playing, because everyone has to play all the same fielders. It doesn’t cost anyone anything. But, when evaluating individual players, how do you compare a catcher to a shortstop to a left fielder? Their defensive positions have different requirements, and thus the relative value of offensive and defensive production of their replacements has to be accounted for. If you were so inclined, you could compare players based only on the other five components… but you’d quickly see that your SS and 2B and CF would all look “underrated,” and… Read more »

paget

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@75/@81, Two things: 1)I guess my first point is fundamentally a semantic one then. If dWAR doesn’t actually reflect defensive WINS above (or below) replacement, it should be called something else. It’s a misleading term. 2)My (incorrect) impression was that the positional adjustment was there to better evaluate only offensive performance. The theory behind evaluating a shortstops’ offensive production differently than a firstbasemen’s is pretty unassailable. I’m not sure I get the value of doing it for a player’s defense in the field. In the end, though, maybe all I’m saying is exactly what birtlecom@75 says about not counting the… Read more »

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@84 Many, MANY people agree with you, and have told Sean as much. The problem is, there are a bunch of people telling him to make the positional adjustment a part of oWAR, and an equal number saying the same about dWAR. So he decided to make everyone miserable by putting the positional adjustment as part of BOTH. Thus, like birt said, to get WAR, you have to add the two, and then subtract out the positional adjustment. The reason behind putting it in the defensive adjustment is this: what if I asked you to name the greatest 10 defensive… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I understand the difference in athletic ability with regards to ‘range’ between a SS/CF and a First Baseman.

A first baseman, however, sees more action than anyone (not including catcher).

And that action involved a lot of specific skills, both physical and mental.

What is the argument that a 1B is ‘less valuable’ than a 2B ?

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Voomo: Studies in recent years have shown that among first basemen the difference between the best and worst fielders of throws from other infielders is not large (though it’s not zero), in term of the effect it has on runs prevented. It’s a small difference compared to the difference among first basemen in terms of the difference in their own range on ground balls, liners, bunts, etc. And the impact of range differences at first are smaller than for any other infield position. Like a third baseman, a first baseman plays plays near a foul line, cutting down the range… Read more »

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

@voomo
It depends what you mean by “less valuable.” If the alternative were playing nobody at 1B or 2B, the 1B is more valuable. If the alternative were playing me at either 1B or 2B, I guarantee that your team would be better off with me at first than second.

John Z

11 years ago

Just a comment or observation if you will, i do not participate in the redemption round, look how it has worked out for kenny lofton. Now this is my suggestion or proposition if you prefer, for these on the redemption round and even the hold overs,there could be a simple separate ballot for the top 10 (IE D. Evans, Mattingly, Simmons, Winfield, McGriff, Rick Rueshal, Don Sutton, etc. The ballot similar to the veterans committee every 10 years and the top 2 (1 pitcher, 1 position player) make the cog, and the other veterans are banished forever never to be… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to John Z

John Z: Thanks for the comments. I welcome suggestions as to how to improve the process. I tend to avoid any rules that involve banishing any one forever from eligibility, without any hope of redemption, because it’s hard to predict how, say, Ted Simmons will fit into consideration compared to the candidates on the ballot in, say, the birth years 1910 to 1900. Maybe he’ll look quite good then, even if he might be banished today. And as for guys like Alomar being on the ballot for too many years, or the ballot being too long with old holdovers, well… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

15 seems plenty long when you can only vote for 3, and only 1 can be elected. Not to mention that all our holdovers are at least plausible candidates, while any given BBWAA ballot has a number of non-serious contenders – of the 37 on last year’s ballot, at least a dozen weren’t worth a second thought.

By the way, what happens if there’s a tie in the redemption round voting? Redemption run-off?

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

If there is a tie for the second redemption spot, there won’t be a runoff. There are two choices in that case : not taking either of the players tied or taking both of the players tied. If I announce which one of those I’m doing ahead of time, it may affect the way people vote. So the answer is this: if there is a tie for the second spot, I will flip a coin — heads they both get added to the ballot, tails neither gets added to the ballot. The only scenario where I can envision a runoff… Read more »

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I like the tie breaker of removing the most recent votes until there is no tie. Vote early!

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

My 4th guy was Garry Sheffield who was certainly not going to make your top 15 by a voting based logic. 80 OWAR.

Darien

11 years ago

Jeff Kent, Dan Quisenberry, and, okay, I’ll be the guy: Rafael Palmeiro.

t-bone

11 years ago

Reuschel
Quisenberry
Dwight Evans

donburgh

11 years ago

Fred McGriff, Rick Reuschel, Dan Quisenberry

Abbott

11 years ago

Winfield, Reuschel, McGwire

aweb

11 years ago

Palmeiro, McGwire, Sutton

Hartvig

11 years ago

With an already crowded ballot and a decades worth of great candidates on the horizon I don’t see a lot of hope for anyone pulling a Martinez or a Lofton and sticking around for more than a round or 2.

McGriff, Reuschel, Winfield

Kirk

11 years ago

Dwight Evans, Dave Winfield & Rick Reuschel

J.R.

11 years ago

Keith Hernandez, Kevin Brown, Dave Winfield