Circle of Greats: 1942 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 33rd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1942. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round. The new group of 1942-born players must, as always, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Sunday, October 20, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Friday, October 18.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1942 Round Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1942 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 11 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1942 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Nolan Ryan (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Jim Palmer (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1942, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Tony Perez
Bert Campaneris
Jim Fregosi
Willie Horton
Bob Bailey
Jerry Grote
Don Kessinger
Ken McMullen
Dick Allen
Jesus Alou
Mickey Stanley
Jim Wynn
Randy Hundley
Alex Johnson
Cleon Jones
Tommie Agee
Larry Haney
Mike Hegan
Jim Gosger
Ted Kubiak
Hal Lanier

Pitchers (born in 1942, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Fergie Jenkins
Jerry Koosman
Ron Reed
Grant Jackson
Fred Norman
Jim Lonborg
Sam McDowell
Dave McNally
Jim Rooker
Steve Hargan
Pat Dobson
Fritz Peterson
Steve Blass
Jim Roland

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Hub Kid

11 years ago

Dick Allen, Jim Wynn, Fergie Jenkins

If I do actually get the first vote in, at least Allen and Wynn will have a nice high percentage until a few more votes join in (and hopefully longer).

brp

11 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

Glad to see Wynn got some support – so now I don’t have to vote for him…

F. Jenkins
D. Allen
K. Lofton, to try to buy some eligibility rounds

Mike

11 years ago

Jim Palmer
Nolan Ryan
Ferguson Jenkins

11 years ago

Fergie Jenkins, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker

Francisco

11 years ago

Ryan, Jenkins, Murray

Bix

11 years ago

Jenkins, Ryan, Whitaker

KalineCountry

11 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Jim Palmer
Willie Horton
Willie deserves at least 1 vote,

11 years ago

A few random facts about some of the new people on the ballot:

*Willie Horton had a 13 year gap between 100 RBI seasons (1966/1979)

*Don Kessinger had nearly as many All-Star appearances (6) as career WAR (9.0).

*Ron Reed has 25.0 career WAR but no single season above 2.9.

*Sam McDowell and Jim Fregosi combined for 87.5 WAR though their age 28 seasons but only 4.2 WAR after.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

Great stuff, Ed.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

Longest gap between 100 RBI seasons is 14 by Harold Baines. Third longest is 10 by Ken Keltner.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Here’s a couple of lists if anyone’s interested. Seasons between 100 RBI seasons Harold Baines 14 Willie Horton 13 Ken Keltner 10 Sam Crawford 9 Lou Boudreau 8 Sam Chapman 8 Carlton Fisk 8 Eddie Murray 8 Ted Simmons 8 Jose Canseco 7 Will Clark 7 Frankie Frisch 7 Al Kaline 7 Dave Parker 7 Alfonso Soriano 7 Adrian Beltre 6 Bobby Bonds 6 Ty Cobb 6 Frank Howard 6 Cal Ripken 6 Ken Singleton 6 Seasons between 20 win seasons David Cone 10 Jim Kaat 8 Andy Pettitte 7 Earl Moore 7 Ed Reulbach 7 Roger Clemens 7 Bill… Read more »

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Thanks Richard! Baines last 100 RBI season is interesting. He started the year with Baltimore, driving in 81 runs in 390 PAs with a .977 OPS. He was traded to Cleveland late in the season and was dreadful. But somehow he managed to drive in lots of runs. In 95 PAs, he drove in 22 runs on only 23 base hits while putting up a .684 OPS. And almost all of his hits were singles (20 singles, 2 doubles, 1 HR). On the other hand, he only scored 5 runs for the Indians, despite getting on base 34 times (11… Read more »

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Fergie Jenkins
Bobby Grich
Ryne Sandberg

e pluribus munu

11 years ago

It seems to me the list of 1942 names includes a particular profusion of problematic players, whose careers were affected by unusual on field or off field performance issues of various kinds: Dick Allen, Alex Johnson, Cleon Jones, Sudden Sam, Fritz Peterson, Steve Blass. Among these, I think only Allen and McDowell would ever have been destined for the CoG (actually, Allen’s a viable candidate anyway, although he won’t get my vote), though these were all good ball players. (I suppose you could add McNally for the unusually ethical way he retired.) There are a lot of Miracle Mets I… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

epm: I too was struck by the large number of shall we say vivid personalities in this group as I was putting the list together. These are players who were in their baseball prime in the late 1960s at the very height of a movement that emphasized rebellion, protest, anti-establishment utopianism, personal experimentation etc. It may not be a coincidence that you get a significant contingent of players of this age who had unusually expressive personalities.

Chris C

11 years ago

Filling out another 2B ballot.

Craig Biggio
Roberto Alomar
Ryne Sandberg

BryanM

11 years ago

Ferguson Jenkins, Lou Whitaker, Jim Wynn — the latter my first strategic vote ever — probably are a couple better players on the ballot than the Toy Cannon — but I wanna talk about him for a round or two — His arm sure looks better in my fuzzy memory than WAR gives it credit.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Campy had a ten year peak averaging 4.7 WAR

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Campy also has an argument as the best SS of the 70s. It’s either him or Concepción. Which is more a comment on the poor overall quality of the SSs in that decade than it is a ringing endorsement for the HOF (or certainly the CoG) for either. It’s actually pretty similar to the arguments surrounding Jack Morris.

robbs

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

We can’t forget Campy’s famous quote” (1972 playoffs?)

“Later I think, “Why I throw bat?”

Abbott

11 years ago

Ryan, Biggio, Grich

TJay

11 years ago

Ryan, Jenkins, and Dick (I still think of him as Richie) Allen.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Most Batting WAR (Rbat at baseball-reference) from 1964 through 1978:
1. Dick Allen 435
2. Hank Aaron 428
3. Frank Robinson 422
4. Willie Stargell 405
5. Willie McCovey 390

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

If you had asked me to guess who’d be on top of this list, I’d have guessed Stargell. But of course you have to extend it by one season to include the MVP year (deserved or not) to get Stargell on top, 436-435.

Paul E

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Dick Allen, Ferguson Jenkins, Jimmy Wynn. Jenkins because he undoubtedly deserves it….Wynn because if he had played anywhere but the Astrodome, he would have deserved it…. and Allen because someone always has to give management a hard time. Allen’s career is proof of the fact that “they’ll” put up with anything as long as you produce, and “they” won’t even remember your name once you can no longer produce. Wynn stole something like 43 bases one year and managed to hit 37 homers another year. I believe he shared the National League record for BB in a season by a… Read more »

Gary Bateman

11 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Paul,

I disagree with your management comment on Allen. “They” got rid of Allen after oWAR seasons of 4.9 (Phillies), 3.8 (Cardinals), 6.3 (Dodgers), and 4.8 (White Sox). That is pretty productive and yet those teams didn’t want Allen anymore. Bill James, in his Hall of Fame book, made the definitive case, I feel, for why Allen does not belong with a group such as this. If you look strictly at numbers, he looks good. But I would not want him on my team and I don’t think he belongs in a Circle of Greats.

no statistician but

11 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Here is what Bill James said in the 1988 HBA: “My problem with [Rogers] Hornsby is the same as my problem with Dick Allen: that he said and did things that made it more difficult for his team to win . . ..” About Hornsby, but almost equally applicable to Allen: “I come back to the same thing I came back to before: Too many people had him and just couldn’t wait to get rid of him. Nobody ever wanted to get rid of Willie Mays. Nobody ever wanted to get rid of Mickey Mantle. Nobody ever wanted to get… Read more »

Paul E

11 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

NSB #41: “Acquired” 1964 PHL +5 1970 STL -9 1971 LAD +2 1972 CWS +12 1975 PHL +6 “DeListed” 1970 PHL +10.5 1971 STL +14 1972 LAD -4 1975 CWS -5.5 1977 PHL +/- 0 It may be a little too simple to say the 1970 Phillies were still wretched and the 1970 Cardinals were without Mike Shannon and a team in transition from their championship teams of the ’60s. I’ll say this much: Allen had some pretty mediocre teammates in his playing days and was generally the best player on any team he played on from 1964 – 1974.… Read more »

Paul E

11 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

GB #24:

I think you’ve proved my point that as long as you can play, there will be demand for your talent. The 1970 Cardinals, ’71 Dodgers, and ’72 White Sox HAD to know what they were acquiring. Even the 1975 Phillies badgered Allen in the off-season to “come back”….

When Allen couldn’t play anymore, a guy with his reputation couldn’t get a job as a pinch-hitter, platoon 1B, or even a DH. But there have been an awful lot of guys (a la Jason Giambi) who are regarded as valuable beyond there days of big contributions on the field

Paul E

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

birtlecom: Sorry for piling on here, however, the good folks have added Offensive WAR to the PI search as of 9/1/2013. I requested this in an e-mail to Sean about 18 months ago in the hope I could someday share: MOST Offensive WAR 1964 – 1974 Allen 68.2 Aaron 63.7 Robinson 59.0 Yaz 56.2 Morgan 55.3 Santo 54.7 Williams 53.1 Rose 52.2 Mays 51.5 McCovey 51.3 Offensive WAR age 22 – 25 Cobb 38.2 Mantle 37.4 Allen 31.2 A-Rod 31.0 Collins 30.6 Foxx 29.9 Speaker 29.7 Aaron 29.4 Pujols 29.2 Gehrig 29.2 Hornsby 29.0 OPS + 1964 – 1974 (3,000… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Thanks, Paul E., and welcome to the voting (I believe this is your first ballot). Of course we both also cherry pick that particular mid-60s to mid-70’s period, which is selected to be Allen’s prime while being at least slightly off from the prime of the other guys. But to me such cherry-picking lists can still be illuminating — they indicate a player’s contribution through the particular lens of his own individually-defined era.

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

@18/birtelcom,

Do you mean 1977? – that’s the year that Allen retired, not 1978.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Yes, Allen retired in ’77, but through ’78 he was still the Rbat leader back to ’64, and 1964 through 1978 makes a full 15-year period.

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@63/birtelcom,

Yes, I later checked: Aaron and Robinson had retired, and McCovey at 0 Rbat in 1978. Stargell with 28 Rbat that year gets him closer, but Allen is still ahead.

You’re right, 15 years is more impressive than 14 years.

11 years ago

Jim Palmer, Edgar Martinez, and for now, Nolan Ryan. But I also considered Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, and Fergie Jenkins. Might change if I think it will help one of my other guys get in

Gary Bateman

11 years ago

Alomar, Smoltz, Jenkins

donburgh

11 years ago

Jenkins, Biggio, and (homer pick!) Blass.

bstar

11 years ago

Dick Allen, Ferguson Jenkins, Nolan Ryan

David Horwich

11 years ago

For the 3rd ballot in a row:

Alomar, Murray, Sandberg

Alomar and Sandberg are definitely COG-worthy, IMO, and I think Murray probably is, although I’m not quite as sure about him; in any case, I’d rather keep them on the ballot then bring them back via redemption round voting.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Also born in 1942: Umpire Rich Garcia.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Also Muhammad Ali, which may be appropos to mention given the exchange at comments 10 and 11 above.

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Speaking of birth years, birt (can I call you “birt? Do you have a roommate named “irnie?”), how are we going to handle 1969? Are we going to hold off on it until after all COG voting is done? Will it happen first thing in the new year? Will we wait until Coopers town results are posted? I guess I missed the memo on this one. But as 2013 gets nearer and nearer its close, I’ve been wondering about this. Thanks.

bells

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

That’s a good question, actually, I guess I had assumed it would be added immediately after the cooperstown vote, but yeah,there are a bunch of options… on top of that, what if they elect something like 4 people next year, do we add more than one year? I thought the original idea of the project was 112 BBWAA elected players in the HoF, 112 ballots going back to around the earliest time a member of the HoF was born (wasn’t it Buck Ewing or something referenced in the first post?)… I know it’s changed since then, but that would make… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to bells

@108/bells,

There are earlier birth dates for HOFers than Ewing: George Wright in 1847, Candy Cummings in 1848, to start. If you consider both of those “Pioneers”, as they are called by the HOF, there’s Orator Jim O’Rourke, born Sept 1850.

That would be 120 years from 1850-1969 (though there may be several of the earliest years with no serious HOF candidates).

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Our friend mosc has been eager to get to a 1969 vote for a while and I responded to him in the comments to the Round 32 results /”Guten Morgan” post. But the bottom line is I’m now thinking we should do a 1969 vote in connection with the first anniversary of the COG voting that will occur in early December. Essentially that would keep the minimum age for COG members steady from where we began: it was nobody born after 1968 as of December 2012 (44 years old and over), and we will move that to nobody born after… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I don’t see the post in reply to mosc that you’re referring to, is it perhaps in a different thread?

Extending the split year votes seems a reasonable way to go about expanding the membership.

Have you decided what the earliest eligible birth year will be?

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

mosc’s question and your reply are in the Steve Carlton Round 31 results, not the Joe Morgan Round 32 results:

http://www.highheatstats.com/2013/10/circle-of-greats-round-31-results-no-more-waiting-for-lefty/#comments

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Thanks for the correct link, MJ. Sorry I steered you to the wrong post, there, guys.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

On the “how far back do we go question”, we still have plenty of time to think further about that. But I continue to like the idea of paralleling the COG candidates to the actual population of the players that the BBWAA, not the Hall of Fame as a whole, treated as within their bailiwick to consider. And I do think the BBWAA pretty much treated as outside their jurisdiction players who played primarily in the 19th century and as the responsibility of other Hall of Fame selection committees. I don’t believe the BBWAA ever elected any player who played… Read more »

T-Bone

11 years ago

Mr. Allen always hated the name “Dick” and was a much more complex person that he’s made out to be. I can’t find the story I read about his upbringing but there’s much more than meets the eye. He was also hurt by playing his prime years in pitcher friendly parks, much like Jim Wynn (I was a big fan of his too) but so were many others. He still put up great numbers despite that and all the extra curricular issues. Hardball times recently had a story on him. It’s interesting and so are the comments. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/cooperstown-confidential-dick-allen/ Having said… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to T-Bone

What I seem to remember is that Allen expressly asked to be called “Dick” when he was sent to the White Sox, in lieu of “Richie”, which he said he had disliked. I saw Allen play in Philadelphia several times when I was a kid — my family lived in that area during the time he was playing there. He was always the center of attention.

Phil

11 years ago

Ryan, Palmer, Alomar. Wish I’d seen Sudden Sam.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Jenkins, Alomar, Murray

Nick Pain

11 years ago

Fergie Jenkins, and because someday I’d like to own the rookie card — Jerry Koosman and Nolan Ryan.

J.R.

11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, Jim Palmer, Bobby Grich.

RonG

11 years ago

Ryan, Jenkins, Palmer

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Something is not quite right in the Blass column totals (at about Q154).

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Yes, I was in mid-column creation there for a bit, but it’s up-to-date now.

jajacob

11 years ago

Ryan, Jenkins, Whitaker.
With a shout outs to Horton who spent his last couple years as a productive Beaver. ( age 38 & 39). Jesus Alou the least productive of the brothers.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Nolan? Fergie?
I’ll take Nolan’s 2.1 world series innings over Fergie’s zero.
_____________________

Ryan
Lofton
Campaneris

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Ryan, Palmer, Fergie

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

Ryan: 5,712 career regular season Ks (in 5,386 IP).
Jenkins and Palmer combined: 5,404 Ks (in 8,448 IP)

T-Bone

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Nolan Ryan – 2795 walks
Jenkins/Palmer – 2308 walks
Jenkins has over 3000 K’s and only 997 walks.

Nadig

11 years ago

Jenkins, Ryan, Martinez.

Andy

11 years ago

Ryan
Palmer
Edgar

11 years ago

Allen, Palmer, Whitaker

Hartvig

11 years ago

The peak of my baseball card collecting days were probably 1966 to 1968- I started in ’61 but by 66 I was 11 years old and could earn my own money delivering papers & raking lawns & stuff so I could really start to afford to indulge my hobby. The names of this ballot absolutely fill the binders of baseball cards I have in my library. For what it’s worth I checked where Bill James’s New Historical Baseball Abstract, Adam Darowski’s Hall of Stats and the Jaffe WAR Score system (JAWS) ranks 4 pitchers: BJHBA HOS JAWS Jenkins 23 21… Read more »

Brendan Bingham

11 years ago

Lofton, Murray, Dick Allen

GrandyMan

11 years ago

Continuing with the tradition of same two holdovers plus one new guy: Ferg, Ryan, Whitaker

koma

11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, Lou Whitaker, John Smoltz

mosc

11 years ago

I’m not a big Fergie fan, to me he’s the 4th best pitcher on this ballot.

Ryan, Palmer, Biggio.

Been a few weeks since I voted for a hitter I think…

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

After Ferguson Jenkins opened up a big lead in the early voting, it’s now tightened up. The top 4 right now, after 32 votes:
Jenkins 19
Ryan 18
Palmer 10
Whitaker 9

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Through 39 ballots cast: Jenkins 25 Ryan 19 Palmer 12 And then second basemen (and Dick Allen): Whitaker 10 Allen 7 Alomar 6 Sandberg, Biggio, Grich 5 And the most recent of those votes also included a Ryan (and Jenkins) vote. So it looks like you may have jinxed Nolan a little bit, as Jenkins has started really pulling away again. Poor Nolan: always a bridesmaid. Second place in the Cy Young once, with nary a win; 2 straight World Series appearances as an owner, with nary a win; and now, quite probably, his 6th (!!!) time as the runner-up… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Jinx indeed. Since I posted comment 58, I’ve counted 15 more ballots, with Jenkins appearing on 10 of them, Palmer on six and Ryan on only one.

Phil

11 years ago

Interesting that Tony Perez hasn’t yet received a vote. I’m not saying he deserves one–it’d be pretty much impossible to argue credibly that he was one of the three best players here—but it’s just interesting to me, as someone who started watching baseball in the early ’70s, how perceptions have changed. Perez was revered back then—he was kind of the David Ortiz of his day.

Phil

11 years ago

Reply to Phil

(Not in terms of post-season performance, I should add. Perez had a couple of good series, and one great game in the ’75 Series, but overall his post-season numbers were poor.)

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Phil

The Clutch stat at b-ref measures how much better or worse a hitter hit in high leverage versus low leverage game situations. Powerful hitters often don’t do well in this stat, presumably because pitchers will tend to pitch carefully around those guys in high leverage situations. Among the 194 hitters who have at least 250 homers since the end of World War II (we only have Clutch stats going back that far). 45 guys have a positive Clutch number and 149 have a negative Clutch number. The top 10 positive Clutch numbers in this 250+ homer group: 1. Yogi Berra… Read more »

JEV

11 years ago

Jenkins, Palmer, Biggio

Mike G.

11 years ago

Jenkins, Lofton, Sandberg

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Dick Allen retired before I could walk. I never saw him play or watched any of the “outside the lines” issues he had to deal with as they occurred. I know he was such a tremendous hitter that I must have read about him as a kid in the 80s because I picked up his rookie card for $2, a pretty good deal considering the hard case it was in cost 75 cents at the time. For the longest time it was the oldest card in my collection. But, ignoring the positional difference for a minute (so I’m thinking of… Read more »

11 years ago

Neither Clark, Olerud or Hernandez received more than 3 votes. Clark is the only one to exceed that total in the two Redemption Rounds, gaining 7 and then 4 votes.

11 years ago

Reply to RJ

This is a reply to Artie Z @66.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

_______________
WAR comparison
Jenkins vs Ryan

10+

1 Jenkins
0 Ryan

4 Jenkins
2 Ryan

8 Jenkins
7 Ryan

9 Jenkins
8 Ryan

15 Jenkins
12 Ryan

16 Jenkins
18 Ryan

1.5+

16 Jenkins
22 Ryan

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

_____________

They both worked with a RA9DEF of 0.06
Even money.

Comparison of raw runs allowed:

Jenkins

RA9
3.71

RA9OPP
4.11

+.40

Ryan

RA9
3.64

RA9OPP
4.17

+.53

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo – You left off the all-important park factor.

Ryan: 95.9 (pitcher’s parks)

Jenkins: 104.9 (hitter’s parks)

That’s likely why Jenkins is only 1.0 WAR behind Ryan despite throwing nearly 900 fewer innings.

(though if we add in hitting, Jenkins is 3.2 WAR ahead of Ryan).

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

Interesting. (I wasn’t drawing any conclusions, by the way. Just throwing numbers. Thank you for adding to the discussion). I find it fun to try to compare Ryan to other pitchers because there’s simply nobody else like him. And that helps bring into focus what exactly we are trying to do here. We’re determining who is “great”. Thus, asking, what does it mean to be great? Career as a whole? Or, if you could pick one guy, at one age, to build a team around for 5-7 years? Ryan doesnt compare well with most other great pitchers, unless you are… Read more »

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I wasn’t sure if you were drawing a conclusion or not. But figured others might so it was best to throw that info out there.

e pluribus munu

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo,

You pinpointed the exact reason I don’t feel Ryan was a great pitcher, despite having unreal talent. Until the end of his career, I always felt the question you posed at the end was the main one he was trying to answer when he pitched.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

C.Biggio, R.Sandberg, the Allen to be named later.

Extending 1994 and 1995 to 162-game seasons, the Astros averaged 84.2 wins during the Biggio era. In the six years since, they have met that mark once.

Sandberg did a lot at second base, including leading the Cu** to the playoffs for the first time in 39 years and again 5 years later.

The exploits of Don’t Call Me Richie have been mentioned above.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

WAR by age

20s

45.6 Jenkins
29.2 Ryan

30s

36.2 Jenkins
32.2 Ryan

40s

1.0 Jenkins
22.6 Ryan

JasonZ

11 years ago

Who was the best at being Nolan Ryan???

My nominee, Sam McDowell.

One if the great nicknames

Sudden.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mcdowsa01.shtml

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Spot on.
Look at their 162 game averages:
__________

Sam

12-12
3.17

9 CG
2 SHO

116 BB
216 SO

112 era+
1.308 WHIP
__________

Nolan Ryan

14-13
3.19

10 CG
3 SHO

120 BB
246 SO

112 era+
1.247 WHIP

Kirk

11 years ago

Alomar, Allen & Jenkins

JasonZ

11 years ago

They both averaged 4.7 walks per 9 innings over their entire careers.

Meanwhile, Ryan averaged 9.5K/9

Sudden Sam was at 8.9.

When Ryan was striking out over 350 batters annually, he walked about 6 for every nine innings.

To his credit, from his age 40-45 seasons, Ryan walked between 3.3-3.9 per nine , therefore achieving consistency and decent control.

Sudden Sam is the perfect comparable for Ryan in his late 20’s to early 30’s.

We need a different one thereafter.

Thoughts…

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

________________
It’s Randy Johnson, with a shout-out to Warren Spahn.
In their 40’s:
___

Ryan

71-66
3.33
116 era+

3.7 BB/9
10.2 SO/9
_________

Johnson

73-52
3.87
116 era+

2.1 BB/9
8.9 SO/9

Hartvig

11 years ago

Jenkins, Sandberg, Edgar Martinez