World Series: Dodgers vs Yankees

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The Dodgers and Yankees meet in the World Series for a record twelfth time, but their first meeting in 43 years. More on the World Series is after the jump.

Twelve meetings in the World Series is easily the most for any pair of league champions. Here’s the list:

12 – Dodgers/Yankees
7 – Giants/Yankees
5 – Cardinals/Yankees
4 – Braves/Yankees, Giants/Athletics, Cubs/Tigers, Cardinals/Red Sox
3 – Reds/Yankees, Cardinals/Tigers
2 – Cubs/Yankees, Phillies/Yankees, Pirates/Yankees, Cubs/Athletics, Cardinals/Athletics, Reds/Athletics, Dodgers/Athletics, Giants/Senators, Pirates/Orioles, Braves/Indians

This is the 120th World Series, comprising 57 in the pre-expansion era and 63 since expansion in 1961. Here is a breakdown of World Series matchups in the expansion era.

The Yankees hold the upper hand in their World Series matchups with the Dodgers, winning in 8 of their previous 11 meetings. However, that scoreboard stands at 2-2 in the expansion era, and 3-3 since the Dodgers’ first World Series title in 1955. Here’s a brief synopsis of their previous World Series meetings:

1941 – In a matchup of two 100+ win teams, the Yankees prevailed in 5 games to claim their 5th World Series crown in 6 seasons. The series turned in game 4, when a strikeout of Tommy Henrich apparently won the game for the Dodgers to square the series. But, catcher Mickey Owen failed to secure the strikeout pitch to Henrich who advanced to first base on the muff, thus extending the 9th inning in which the Yankees would score 4 runs to win the game and take a 3-1 series lead.
1947 – In his debut season, Jackie Robinson became the first African American to appear in the World Series, but the Yankees prevailed in 7 games. In game 4, Bill Bevens, despite walking 10 Dodgers, was one out away from a no-hit win that would give the Yankees a 3-1 series edge, but Cookie Lavagetto doubled to right field to plate a pair of Dodger runs for a 3-2 walk-off win to square the series. In game 6, with the Dodgers facing elimination, the Yankees appeared to have tied the game with a 3-run home run, but Al Gionfriddo reached over the fence in deepest LF at Yankee Stadium to snag Joe DiMaggio’s 460 foot drive and preserve the Dodger victory. Brooklyn took an early 2-0 lead in game 7, but Joe Page pitched 5 scoreless frames in relief to backstop a 5-2 victory for the Pinstripers.
1949 – The teams traded a pair of 1-0 shutout wins in the first two games, and dueled to a 1-1 tie after 8 innings of game 3. In the 9th, the Yankees got to Ralph Branca for three runs, on a pair of two out RBI singles by Johnny Mize and Jerry Coleman. But the Dodgers didn’t go quietly, with a pair of solo homers in the bottom of the frame before Joe Page secured the final out. Yankee bats came alive in the next two contests to deliver a series triumph in 5 games.
1952 – The teams traded victories over the first six games and were knotted at 2-2 after 5 innings of game 7. Mickey Mantle, who slugged .655 for the series, delivered a solo blast in the 6th and an 2-out RBI knock in the 7th. The Dodgers loaded the bases with one out in the bottom of the 7th, but Bob Kuzava relieved for the Yankees and induced pop-ups by Duke Snider and Jackie Robinson to quell the threat and secure another Yankee series victory.
1953 – The home teams won each of the first four contests before the Yankees took game 5 at Ebbets field on the strength of Mickey Mantle’s grand slam home run. The Yankees were two outs away from a series triumph in game 6 before Carl Furillo tied the game with a 2-run blast off Allie Reynolds. In the bottom of the 9th, Billy Martin, who batted .500 for the series, singled to plate the winning run in walk-off fashion as the Yankees secured their 5th straight World Series title.
1955 – The home teams won the first six games to set the stage for the deciding contest pitting game 2 winner Tommy Byrne for the Yankees against game 3 winner Johnny Podres for the Dodgers. An RBI single in the 4th and a sac fly in the 6th, both by Gil Hodges, provided the margin of victory as Podres scattered 8 hits for the shutout victory and Brooklyn’s first World Series title after 6 agonizing disappointments.
1956 – The teams split the first four games before Don Larsen authored the only perfecto in World Series history in game 5. After 18 straight scoreless frames, the Dodgers finally broke through in the 10th inning of game 6 to walk-off the Yanks 1-0. New York romped 9-0 in the finale, shelling Dodger ace Don Newcombe for the second time in the series. New York’s 12 home runs stood as a new World Series record, eclipsed since only by the 2002 Giants and 2017 Astros.
1963 – In the first World Series played at Dodger Stadium, LA swept the Yankees, holding the New Yorkers to just four runs for the series against current and former Dodger aces Sandy Koufax, Don Drysdale and Johnny Podres. Former Yankee slugger Bill Skowron, dealt to the Dodgers after the 1962 season, pummeled his former club to the tune of .385/.429/.615 for the series.
1977 – Mike Torrez’s two CG victories paced the Yankees to a series win in 6 games. In the 4th inning of the clinching contest, Reggie Jackson followed a Thurman Munson leadoff single with a home run on the next pitch to put the Yankees ahead 4-3. Jackson added two more first pitch blasts to secure an 8-4 Yankee win.
1978 – The Yankees made it to October on Bucky Dent’s home run in game 163. The home teams won the first four games of the series before Yankee bats got to game 2 winner Burt Hooton in a game 5 blowout. Reggie Jackson’s two-run blast in game 6 was the coup de gras to clinch the series for New York. The two teams combined for 120 hits, still a record for a 6 game series and equaling the total for the same combatants in 1953.
1981 – In a bifurcated, strike-marred season, the two teams emerged as the survivors of two rounds of best-of-5 league playoff series. The Yankees won the first two games at home, holding the Dodgers to only 3 runs on 9 hits for the two contests. In LA, the Dodgers won three one-run games, a marathon 147 pitch CG win by rookie ace Fernando Valenzuela in game 3, an 8-7 triumph in game 4 in which Dodger relievers provided all 27 outs, and a 2-1 CG win by Jerry Reuss in game 5 on the strength of back-to-back 7th inning homers off of Yankee ace Ron Guidry. In game 6, Yankee manager Bob Lemon elected to pinch-hit for starter Tommy John in the 4th inning of a 1-1 game, but Yankee relievers allowed 7 runs over the next two frames as the Dodgers claimed their 5th World Series title.

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Richard Chester

1 month ago

For the 1949 WS you could have mentioned that in game1 Tommy Henrich hit the first WS walk-off home run.

Author

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Thanks, Richard. An indicator, perhaps, of the relative lack of prominence of the home run then vs. now, is that it took so long (the 46th World Series) for an event that has now happened 18 times in the World Series.

no statistician but

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

Prior to 1949, the only 1-0 Series win that came via a home run involved Henrich’s manager, the mighty Casey. Stengel was almost as good playing in the post-season as managing in it, with BAs of .364, .400, and .417.

Paul E

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314618576524

too cool…if it comes thru

Bob Eno

1 month ago

One of the things about the ’55 Series that was widely noted at the time was that it was the first time a team had won the initial two games of a 7-game Series and wound up losing. What a comeback by the Bums!! What fortitude! But look at ’56. Aughh! The Yankees did the same thing! What rotten luck! US Steel always gets the breaks! (Vide Joe E. Lewis) In fact, both Series followed the exact same pattern throughout: the home teams won the first six games and the visiting team captured the flag in the end. And this… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

. . . So much for omens.

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Bob, you were no doubt pleased that during game 3 on Fox, Joe Davis mentioned the Amoros catch as a key moment in the 1955 series (just to bring that discussion over to this thread).

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

Not as much as nsb was, I imagine. Remember, it was he who brought that subject to the last string, along with a series of other interesting Dodger-Yankee historical moments. And now you and Tom are picking up the theme.

Tom

1 month ago

RIP Fernando Valenzuela. He died one day before the 43rd anniversary of his gutsy performance on 10/23/81.

Fernando did not have his good stuff that day. WS Game 3 was his 5th start in 18 days. In his previous 4 starts, he went 31.2 innings, including 8.2 on 10/19.

He gave up 4 run on 2 HRs, 6 hits and 4 walks in 2.2 innings. With the team already down 2 games to 0, Fernando dug deep and shut out the Yankees the rest of the way, despite giving up 3 more hits and 3 more walks.

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Tom

Thanks for the insight, Tom.

As events unfolded, sticking with Valenzuela in game 3 probably also helped the Dodgers win game 4, when a rested bullpen was called upon to cover 27 outs.

Tom

1 month ago

In 1981 Game 5, Ron Cey got beaned by a Goose Gossage fastball. At first there was real concern that Cey was seriously hurt, or worse. He lied unconscious for over 5 minutes. He had to be helped off the field. After the game, he went to the hospital and was diagnosed with a concussion.

Two days later, Cey was in the lineup. In the 5th inning, he hit a single to center that drove in the go-ahead run. LA never gave up the lead, as LA won 9-2, to win the Series.

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Tom

I had forgotten all about Cey’s beaning, but the memory has returned now that you mentioned it. Yes, he did lie unconscious for what seemed the longest time.

Doug

1 month ago

Seems this year’s series could be over sooner than we’d like. As related on the game 3 telecast, this is the 25th Series in which a team has led 3-0. That turned into a sweep on 21 of the previous 24 occasions, and a 5 game series the other three times.

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug

Richard Chester

1 month ago

In yesterday’s Yankees-Dodgers game, game 4, of the World Series, Anthony Volpe hit a GS for his first WS HR.Only other Yankees to do that are Gil McDougald, Tino Martinez, Joe Pepitone and Bobby Richardson.

no statistician but

1 month ago

Whoever anticipated a contest of domination between the two presumptive MVPs was surely disappointed. Judge finally came alive in games four and five, but Ohtani’s big play was getting caught stealing and injuring himself in game two. BA for the Series, .056. Freeman, overshadowed all season by Ohtani (and Betts, early on until he was injured), carried the load with telling RBIs in every game.

Paul E

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

Max Muncy? 0 hits in 20 PA’s….. these small sample sizes kill some guys If you add up all of Mr. October’s post-season numbers (77 games IIRC) and multiply x2, he basically equals his 162 game regular season averages. Same with Mr. November in 159 (IIRC) career post-season games – literally the equivalent of his regular season body of work. Carlos Beltran always seemed to play well in the post-season but, nobody seemed to step up their game like Dykstra in his 32 post season games. I have to believe Betts, Kershaw, and Ohtani are all destined for Cooperstown. Is… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Paul E

As for Muncy, it will be hard for him to claim a Dodger superlative in light of Gil Hodges’ 1952 record of 0 for 26 PA (21 AB) in a 7-game Series. And Muncy still got to make good postseason contributions vs. the Padres & Mets–in the two days between the end of the regular season and his Series bust in 1952, Hodges’ MLB record is indistinguishable from that of a Fuller Brush salesman. But thank you, Paul, for pointing out Dykstra’s terrific record. I wasn’t aware of how consistently good he’d been in the postseason, though I suppose the… Read more »

Richard Chester

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

Something similar occurred in the 1946 WS between the Red Sox and the Cardinals. Ted Williams batted .200 with 0 HR and 1 RBI. Stan Musial wasn’t much better with a.222 BA, 0 HR and 4 RBI.

Doug

1 month ago

Congrats to the Dodgers! A clinching game that will not soon be forgotten. Yankees beat themselves badly, but LA came up with two key two out hits to take full advantage of the opportunity afforded them. Was game 5 the first time the Yankees have allowed 5+ runs in an inning when holding a multi-run lead in a WS elimination game. Actually, no! The same thing happened in game 7 in 1960. No errors in that inning, but a bad hop on an easy double play ball turned two out nobody on into two on nobody out. I have criticized… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

Nice post, and I particularly like the nod to the Pirates’ 5-run 8th in ’60 and the remarkable management of the Dodgers’ decimated pitching staff. But I’m here to complain, as grumpy old men do! I really object to the “most X in a clincher” stat when the game is not a sudden-death situation, or at least when applied to a team that is guaranteed a rematch if they lose. When the “clincher” is the 7th game, every member of both teams goes into that game knowing it’s the clincher, and that their play that day will determine the Series… Read more »

no statistician but

1 month ago

In the last eight years the Dodgers and Astros have each appeared in the Series four times. Eight other teams have each appeared once.

The Dodgers have made the playoffs in each of the last twelve years, the Astros in each of the last eight. In the last thirty years, the Yankees have seen post-season action twenty-five time, with a string of 13 consecutive years beginning in 1995.

no statistician but

1 month ago

Here is a listing of dueling NL and AL MVPs who’s teams vied against each other in the World Series. Without citing numbers—but you can look it up—I’ll just report that, with exceptions, their performances fell below regular season level. Mantle, for example, had three excellent Series, but 1956 and ’57 were just run of the mill. None of DiMaggio’s post-seasons matched his usual performance level. The best matchup by far came in 1980 between Mike Schmidt and George Brett, which is fitting, since they were paired in their time the way Mays and Mantle were (or Campanella and Berra,… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

Thanks for this list, nsb. I expect it took some work. It’s interesting to see how expansion has impacted this sort of match-up. Until 1931 the MVP was a sometimes thing–none before 1911 and only four years in the 1910s and six in the 1920s where both leagues even had MVPs. But once regularized these WS match-ups occurred 4-6 times each decade through the ’60s, then 2-3 times, then zilch for 24 years–that’s what happens as talent is dispersed among an increasing number of contenders. And, of course, in recent decades the impact of enhanced stats has made MVP voting… Read more »

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

Nice list, nsb. You mentioned the disappointment of the 1942 matchup of Cooper and Gordon. In fairness to Cooper, his inflated ERA is mainly due to one bad inning in game 4, when he allowed the first six batters to reach in the 4th inning before being relieved. He had pitched okay in game 1, with 3 ER allowed over 7.2 IP, but was victimized by a dropped fly ball by Enos Slaughter that allowed two more to score. Cooper’s main heroics were in getting the Cardinals to the post-season in the first place. St. Louis finished 38-6, erasing an… Read more »

Paul E

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

Doug,
Gotta ask: “Has any team gone 38-6 in any stretch previously or since, let alone in the final 44 games of a major league season?”

Tom

1 month ago

Reply to Paul E

The 1906 Cubs had 6 losses in their last 54 games.

Paul E

1 month ago

Reply to Tom

Wow!! and they lost the WS 🙁
Thanks!!

Richard Chester

1 month ago

Reply to Paul E

It’s been done several times by the Cubs, Pirates, Giants, Yankees, A’s and Cards, most recently by the Yankees in 1939.

Paul E

1 month ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Thanks!

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Richard, I’m not seeing a comparable stretch with the Yankees in ’39, though I can get them to 37-7 in a 44-game stretch (5/6 to 6/24).

I think the Tigers’ 35-5 start in 1984 is a more recent example in the same class, although it was “only” a 40-game stretch at .875 (vs. the ’42 Cards at .864).

If you put together the Giants’ two huge win-streaks in 1916 you get to 43-0 (17-0 + 26-0). Unfortunately, the rest of their season produced an equal number of wins: 43-66. (I know: not the same sort of thing . . .)

Richard Chester

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

I re-ran my Stathead search and saw that the Yankees streak was in 1941, not 1939. I also saw that the Dodgers and the Guardians did it in 2017.

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I see it, Richard. Quite a season for the Yankees. They were in 4th place before the streak started on June 10 and wound up taking the pennant by 17 games. I never paid attention to that season before. Cleveland in 2017 has something a little shorter, but higher pct., 33-4, but it ends the season and so resembles the Cards in ’42. (It earned them the best record in the AL, but not the pennant–curse the postseason!) I’d completely forgotten the Dodgers stretch in that year–they went 52-9 and 56-11–they almost looked like the 1906 Cubs, with a .717… Read more »

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Paul E

Over a longer stretch, the Miracle Braves finished the 1914 season 61-16.

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

The Miracle Braves of 1914 had many parallels with the Miracle Mets of 1969. When I was young the thing we all knew about the Braves was that they had been in last place on July 4 and won the pennant. But in 1914 what people knew was that the Braves deserved to be in last place because they were a perennial last place team (as they were 1909-12, losing 100 every year) who had just emerged in 1913 as ordinarily bad, escaping the cellar with a 69-82 .457 record. Moreover, on July 4 the world was as it was… Read more »

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

The fates of the 1942 Dodgers and 1969 Cubs would appear to bear some resemblance. -In 1942, the Dodgers were up 9 on Aug 14, then lost a pair to the Cards on Sep 11-12 to fall into a tie with them. -In 1969, the Cubs were up 9 on Aug 12, then lost a pair to the Mets on Sep 8-9 to lead by just half a game. But, appearances can be deceiving. The ’42 Dodgers lost the pennant despite playing well down the stretch, just not well enough to keep pace with the Cards. Their 9 game lead… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

There is, however, a common link between the ’42 Dodgers and the ’69 Cubs, Doug. Their manager, Durocher. And we haven’t mentioned the ’51 Giants, whose 37-7 stretch run to close the season brought them into a playoff with the Dodgers, which they won (so 39-8 altogether). Also Durocher, though this time on the winning side of the race. Durocher transformed teams. When he was made manager of the Bums in ’39 they flipped from perennial losers to a strong winning season and took the pennant two years later. 1942 was actually their best record since 1899, even though they… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Replying to myself here. I said Durocher “protected” Reiser. Not the right word: he didn’t protect him at all, he boosted him (and thereby exposed him to the repeated injuries that tanked his career). Huggins had shielded Leo from players pissed off at his mouthy character, like Ruth and Gehrig, and started him despite his limited talents. Leo rushed Reiser along–Reiser was reckless and self-confident–and coddled Mays like an indulgent father when Mays was in the dumps. He wrecked Reiser but helped make Mays one of the best, if not the best position player ever.

no statistician but

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

It’s funny how there are some players whose careers were curtailed by injury, ailment, or even death, but they nevertheless have ultimately, if not immediately, been recognized as HOF worthy, while others with equal or better credentials are passed over. Reiser is the extreme case of the latter group in terms of career WAR, but he lost three full seasons to WWII, which makes his case exceptional. Reiser, Thurman Munson, Nomar Garciaparra, Al Rosen, Charley Keller, for Pete’s sake, Eric Davis, Mattingly, Ray Chapman, Albert Belle, and if you take into account psychological debilities, Chuck Knoblauch, plus probably some I’ve… Read more »

Richard Chester

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

Among Yankee players with at least 2000 PA Keller’s lifetime OPS+ of 153 puts him behind only Ruth, Gehrig, Judge, Mantle and DiMaggio.

Richard Chester

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

Among Yankee players with 2000+ PA Keller’s OPS+ of 153 puts him behind only behind Ruth, Gehrig, Judge, Mantle and DiMaggio,

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

It would be interesting to go case by case on these, nsb. But I don’t feel the argument, “If X is in, Y should be” is valid. In my view Bains is a real error, but that shouldn’t mean anyone above his low bar should be in the Hall. I do begrudge the elevation of Youngs–I didn’t think his case was strong and we know his “election” was the product of Frankie Frisch’s campaign to enshrine all of his friends. It discredited the Veterans Committee. (He’s not in a class with Puckett; George Sisler is.) I think Keller’s worth the… Read more »

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

I see that the Hall of Fame has streamlined its four “era” committees down to just two, the “Classic” era (pre-1980) and the “Contemporary” era (1980 to the present). Hopefully, that will prevent too many more mistakes like Baines.

Here’s hoping that the Classic committee gets to work on electing Dick Allen and Bobby Grich, and the Contemporary committee does the same for Lou Whitaker (they being among the more notable snubs, to my mind).

no statistician but

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Bob: I said I don’t begrudge Youngs and Puckett, but I didn’t say that I think they should be in the Hall. I think Puckett’s elevation was more of an emotional catharsis for the voters, not based at all on his record, and Youngs might or might not have had a career through his mid thirties that matched what he achieved through his age 27 season, but there’s no telling. And that really is my point. With the exceptions of Munson and Keller, who I feel have real cases to support them, I put the other names forth merely to… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

We’re actually in agreement, nsb. Certainly, consistency would be welcome; I just don’t think we should let past inconsistency determine what future consistency should be. I think a Wing of If-Only added to the Hall of Fame is nice in concept. And I didn’t mean Puckett was as good as Sisler or like Sisler, only that their cases are in one class and that Youngs’s is in another. Youngs, like Sisler, had seven productive seasons (4303 PA) but he only produced about 31 WAR in them compared to Sisler’s 47 (in 4280 PA). Puckett produced at a rate like Youngs… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Has it been widely noted that the Dodgers, who have now defeated the Yankees in four World Series (never mind losing eight!), have beaten the Yankees in 7 games (1955), 6 games (1981), 5 games (2024), and 4 games (1963)? I believe no other team has defeated a single opponent in each of the four possible Series outcomes. (If the answer to my question is yes it will show how embarrassingly out of touch I’ve become.)

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Only two other instances of a team beating one opponent in the WS four or more times.
-Yankees over Dodgers: in 5, 6 and 7 games, but never a sweep
-Yankees over Giants: in 5, 6 and 7 games, but never a sweep

Only a few more instances of teams facing each other in the WS four or more times, showing series won.
-Cardinals (3) vs Yankees (2)
-Yankees (3) vs Braves (1)
-Athletics (3) vs Giants (1)
-Cardinals (2) vs Red Sox (2)
-Cubs (2) vs Tigers (2)

Last edited 1 month ago by Doug

no statistician but

1 month ago

I’d like to title this “Hunter Greene 2024 and the Weakness of pWAR,” but I won’t. Hunter Greene’s 2024 season, according to Baseball Reference, was the best in the NL, producing 6.3 pWAR. This total was accomplished in 150.1 innings, so it wasn’t a qualifying season, though he made 26 starts (and no relief appearances). His W-L record was 9-5, his team’s W-L record in those 26 starts was 11-15. By comparison, Chris Sale’s Cy Young season produced 6.2 pWAR in 172.2 innings, 29 starts. Sale’s W-L record was 18-3, his team’s record 22-7 in his starts. ERA: Greene 2.75,… Read more »

no statistician but

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

oops. Sale’s WHIP was actually even better at 1.013.

Doug

1 month ago

Reply to no statistician but

WAR looks at what pitchers do in each start against that particular opponent. Do well against a better team, and WAR rewards handsomely. But, do poorly against weaker opposition and those rewards will be clawed back. Don’t know if that was at play in why Greene seemed to fare better than he ought to, or Sale to fare more poorly than seems right, but I’d start by looking at each outing individually, rather than the overall season stats. I once found a similar instance of a pitcher’s WAR that didn’t seem to make sense. Then I looked at each start… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Doug

This is really interesting, Doug. I’ve known about this in terms of “strength of schedule,” but had never pictured it in terms of expected performance in individual games. Doing a really rough calculation, it does appear that Greene had a significantly tougher overall strength of schedule, though it’s not a huge difference. And Sale’s worst outings were against the Marlins and A’s (8 ER in 4 IP on that one). One thing I noticed was that although Greene missed a month in the latter half of his season, his second-half ERA (10 starts; 57.2 IP) was 1.09. Kind of impressive.… Read more »

Bob Eno

1 month ago

Reply to Bob Eno

One further riff on the Greene/Sale comparison. I’m not sure how this would play out on a full analysis, but the comparison of team records in pitcher starts doesn’t seem like a particularly illuminating angle to me. The contrast was 11-15 for Greene and 22-7 for Sale, which seems pretty stark. But if you look at games in which the pitcher pitched over 5 innings without giving up any runs, it turns out that Sale did it 6 times and his team went 6-0 in those games, while Greene did it 7 times and his team went 3-4. (Greene also… Read more »

Bob Eno

29 days ago

Reply to Doug

One of the penalties of not following MLB more closely is that when I pursue stats I sometimes encounter what appear to be inexplicable anomalies that just reflect changed practices I’m not used to, like runners appearing from nowhere and standing on second base or 7-inning games. Pursuing Hunter Greene further I encountered one of those, and it is especially unusual. On June 6, 2022, the Reds and D’backs played a single 7-inning game in Cincy. I don’t see any indication of why the game was only 7 innings. there was no rain, and the Reds batted in the bottom… Read more »

Bob Eno

29 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Note: Although the B-R game record says there was no rain in the 6/6/22 game referenced above, Greene’s 6.2-inning one-hitter, I’ve found contemporary accounts that say it was indeed rain that brought the game to a premature close.

no statistician but

29 days ago

I don’t know if anyone else will be interested, but here’s a subject I found worth looking into. George Crowe Luke Easter Steve Bilko Rocky Nelson Marv Throneberry Triple A First basemen of the Nineteen-Fifties. Only Easter and Crowe (one time only when he was age 36) had qualifying seasons that produced big league numbers approximating their minor league potentiality. Strange that they are bunched so closely together in time. The most successful of the group at triple-A was the now all-but-forgotten Rocky Nelson, three-time International League MVP, who only found his big-league stride at age thirty-four platooning for the… Read more »

Bob Eno

29 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

As it turns out, nsb, someone else was interested. Thank you! Maybe not high heat stats, but high heat history. I’ve always known about Easter but have no memory of him. I remember all the rest, although I think that among them I saw only Throneberry play (for the Yanks and Mets–badly). I have to dispute one small phrase, however. Rocky Nelson is not all-but-forgotten. He was the foil to Mickey Mantle’s famous base-running masterpiece in the ninth inning of the WS deciding game in 1960. Without Rocky’s (understandably) slow reflexes, there would have been no Mazeroski heroics. I believe… Read more »

no statistician but

29 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Bob:

George Crowe’s brother Ray coached the famous Crispus Attucks High School State Champions in 1955-6, with Oscar Robertson as his star player. One loss in two years, a 45 game winning streak, and a pair of titles. The team was far more renowned in it’s time for being the first all-black team to win a state crown than was the fluke of the previous year when little Milan HS, enrollment 161, took the title and spawned that terrific film, “Hoosiers,” starring Gene Hackman, who like myself grew up just over the state line in Danville, Illinois.

Bob Eno

29 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

I can see how you might be more familiar with mid-century Hoosier sports than I, nsb, growing up so nearby. Of course, I know about Crispus Attucks, but not its sports history. “Hoosiers” was certainly terrific (but in my town people talk about “Breaking Away”), and anyone who grew up where Gene Hackman did has my automatic respect, though you had it on other grounds already.

Author

Doug

17 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

In that 1957 season, Crowe was one of 5 black players in the top 8 of NL HR totals, including Aaron and Banks at the top of the list.

Easter made the top 10 in AL HR in three straight season (1950-52), including 2nd to Larry Doby (who made top 10 just about every year) in the last of those seasons. It would be 35 years before the Indians next had a pair of 30 HR sluggers.

Paul E

26 days ago

Off the beaten path, once again….. On October 3, 2015, the Nationals’ Max Scherzer pitched a 9-inning no-hitter, striking out 17 NY Mets. The lone blemish appears to be a Yunel Escobar throwing error in the bottom of the 6th. His teammates managed to strike out an additional 18 times without taking a walk. QUESTION: Are these 35 strikeouts a record for a 9-inning game without a single base on balls?

Bob Eno

26 days ago

Reply to Paul E

Interesting path, Paul. I can’t answer, but I’ll be astonished if the answer isn’t yes. In following up, I discovered that Scherzer’s game score of 104 was second only to Kerry Woods’ 105 in his 20-K game on 5/6/1998, as far as nine-inning games were concerned. But Joe Oeschger’s 153 in his 5/1/1920 26-inning CG is the highest ever (over 50% beyond Woods’–Oeschger’s opponent, Leon Cadore, scored a measley 140). While those are all interesting stats, the reason I’m writing this is because I discovered that Oeschger actually pitched two CGs of 20 innings or more. On 4/30/1919 he pitched… Read more »

Richard Chester

26 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Per Baseball-Reference Joe Oeschger is the only pitcher with multiple 20+inning CGs.

Bob Eno

25 days ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Thanks, Richard, Always good to hear from you. And it feels nice to think I stumbled on an obscure piece of baseball history that readers of HHS can use to stump friends and earn admiring eye-rolls. (Even though I actually have always been a fan of Brooklyn’s Leon Cadore.) Happy Thanksgiving!

Richard Chester

25 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

And a happy Thanksgiving to you, Bob.

Richard Chester

25 days ago

Reply to Paul E

Paul:

In response to your question I found that there have been 44 games, with any number of innings, with a combined 35+ strikeouts but none also with 0 combined walks except for the Mets game that you mentioned. The closest I found was a a Yankees-Astros game on 9/29/2013. There were 35 strikeouts and 2 walks in a 14 inning game. My search covered the years 1901 through 2022.

Paul E

24 days ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Richard,
Thank you for the response. Pretty bizarre anomaly…..actualy, incredible to think that a guy pitches a 17-strikeout/0-BB no-hitter and his teammates go and strike out even more frequently without taking a walk. But, based on where the game appears to be headed, I wouldn’t doubt it happening again.

no statistician but

20 days ago

Some Thoughts on No-Hitters Part 1: Hall of Fame Cred? My memory may be wrong, but as I recall, back in the 1950s and 1960s one of the preferred items on a pitcher’s CV for entry into the Hall of Fame was a no-hitter. And at that time, when the Hall was barely out of its infancy with very few members, the majority of great pitchers had thrown one, or in Cy Young’s case, three. Nevertheless, there was no real logic to this notion since, in the first 60 years of the Twentieth Century, while there had been 97 no… Read more »

no statistician but

20 days ago

Part 2: The Anti-HOF Sixty-four HOFers pitched 49 no-hitters, seven of them perfect games. (I’ll get to perfect games later.) At the other end of the spectrum, though, 46 no-hitters were thrown by pitchers of less than overwhelming—often far less than overwhelming—careers. My criterion for singling out these 46 was perhaps simpleminded and arbitrary: the pitcher had to have fewer than 70 career wins. I leave it to another to devise a more accurate means of assessment. Of the 45 on my list—yes, one of them found the magic twice— only 13 had winning records. Nine won 50 or more games,… Read more »

Bob Eno

20 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

Another great deep nsb dive—tripartite, no less. This is what makes HHS fun to check in on, especially on a cold winter night. (Autumn, but never mind: it’s cold and snowy.) Reading through these, my eye rested on the name of perhaps the most unHallworthy no-hit pitcher in history, Bobo Holloman (lifetime 3-7). I’ve loved his story ever since reading about him in Bill Veeck’s autobiography, Veeck As In Wreck. I found the book on the shelf after reading nsb’s posts and re-read Bobo’s Saga, per Veeck. Veeck spends a memorable couple of pages describing Holloman’s epic performance. The game… Read more »

Doug

17 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

The other notable Bobo was Mr. Newsom, who could also out-talk anyone with whom he might strike up a conversation and who also mostly spoke of himself in the third person.

Newsom never tossed a no-no, but did twirl 5 one-hitters, including this 1934 game in which he lost his no-hit bid with two out in the 10th inning.

no statistician but

20 days ago

Part 3: Games Perfect, Pitchers Not Always Seven Hall of fame pitchers have tossed perfectos out of the twenty-two on record, names to be reckoned with: Young, Joss, Bunning, Koufax, Randy Johnson, Halladay, and (maybe) Catfish Hunter, who at least had his moments. Some other names on the roster are also impressive, led by Dennis Martinez, who won 245 games in a long, workhorse career. Kenny Roger, David Wells, and Mark Buehrle all chalked up over 200 victories, and David Cone hit 194. Nevertheless, including the immortal Charlie Robertson, the list provides the names of six players who are lifetime… Read more »

Doug

17 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

Unfortunately, the spectacle of a pitcher being removed from a no-hit bid has become much more common in recent seasons, with 18 such games of 7+ IP through the 2021 season, and 18 more since 2022 (click on the link below for a graphical view).
Number of Games with Starting Pitcher Removed after 7+ No_Hit IP

For trivia buffs, the first pitcher to suffer this fate was Johnny Klippstein of the Reds in this 1956 game. Reds’ manager Birdie Tebbetts was evidently way ahead of his time, pulling Klippstein before facing Mathews and Aaron for a fourth time.

Last edited 17 days ago by Doug

no statistician but

17 days ago

Reply to Doug

Klippstein, the epitome of the journeyman pitcher, spent 18 usually undistinguished seasons in the majors, first as a swing man for the Cubs and Reds, then as a mostly middle reliever for seven other teams. Two of them, the 1959 Dodgers and 1965 Twins, won pennants, and Klipp’s 3 World Series appearances were perhaps the twin peaks of his career: 0.00 ERA.

Bob Eno

17 days ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks for the graph, Doug. Removing no-hit pitchers early is smart baseball and bad for baseball, like so many probability-based trends. I suspect Tebbetts wasn’t thinking about the bottom of the 8th inning so much as the top. Klippstein was wild that night and had let in a run, so the Redlegs were behind. Tebbetts pinch-hit for Klippstein with a runner on second and one out to try to tie the game. (1956 was a break-out year for Cincy and they were contenders for the first time in a decade so even though the season was young there was something… Read more »

Doug

17 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Thanks for the info on the rule change, Bob. I can understand Newsom’s game once being regarded as a no-hitter, having recorded 27+ outs. But, Klippstein had only pitched 7 innings. Do you know what was the minimum number of outs required to qualify for a “no-hitter”? Incidentally, Kilippstein had only one other start allowing no hits, in this 1954 game. Like his 1956 game, he walked 7, but in only 3 IP. Klippstein seems to have found his stride late in his career, pitching to a 2.44 ERA in just over 300 IP (all in relief, save for one… Read more »

Bob Eno

17 days ago

Reply to Doug

Hi Doug. Klippstein wasn’t credited with a no-hitter: the Redlegs were credited with one. They did complete a 9-inning no-hitter, but the game went into the tenth and the third pitcher, Joe Black, gave up the first hit in the tenth. So the game was a no-hitter but no one pitcher got credit for one. Had the game ended in a 1-0 loss after nine (where it was headed) it would still count as a team no-hitter. A more poignant example is Harvey Haddix’s 1959 perfect game, which is no longer a perfect game — or even a no-hitter —… Read more »

Last edited 17 days ago by Bob Eno

Author

Doug

17 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Thanks for clarifying, Bob. That 5 inning no-hitter by McCormick is one of eleven of that length (none shorter), ten of which came before that 1991 rule change, so would have been recognized as no-hitters at the time. The longest no-hitter still recognized as such is 10 innings by three pitchers, including Jim Maloney in 1965 when he “scattered” 10 walks and a HBP (the other two were more impressive, at one and two batters over the minimum). I remember seeing (on TV) Mark Gardner of the Expos lose a no-hitter in the 10th inning against the Dodgers in 1991.… Read more »

Last edited 17 days ago by Doug

Bob Eno

17 days ago

Reply to Doug

Your comment on Gardner reminded me of watching (also on TV) Milt Wilcox’s 1983 perfect game go up in smoke on the 27th batter. Those other two 10-inning no-hitters were remarkable. (I can’t see the second page of your Stathead table but I’m guessing they’re by Fred Toney and Hooks Wiltse.) Toney’s 1917 game may not be as famous as it used to be because of the 1991 rule change. Before that, the game was famous as a “double no-hitter“: neither Toney nor his opponent, Hippo Vaughn, gave up a hit in nine innings. In the top of the tenth… Read more »

no statistician but

16 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Your remarks about viewing no-hitters on TV brought to mind the memory of my father, on a business outing to Chicago in 1960, having witnessed in person Don Cardwell’s inaugural start for the Cubs after being acquired from the Phils. It was a one walk, no hit win over St. Louis. In looking up this game at Baseball Reference, I came across the astounding fact that in the following year, 1961, Cardwell led the NL in Pitching WAR at 6.1. How? Why? His 15-14 record for a 64-90 team? But 1) He was 10-5 at home, not extraordinarily better… Read more »

Bob Eno

16 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

nsb, I think you’ve hit on a terrific example to crystallize reasons for skepticism. Cardwell’s pWAR leadership is completely counter-intuitive. I’ve been poring over the relevant stats to try to explain it, comparing Cardwell to the top ten leaders in ERA+ (among which he does not rank, as you point out). I’ve found no correlation with things like RA/9IP or FIP. But I do think I understand how the figure was arrived at, in general. The main issues seem to be (1) offensive strength of opposition; (2) park factor for all parks pitched in; (3) defensive quality of the pitcher’s… Read more »

no statistician but

16 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Maybe a new asterisk is needed:

pWAR*

*Be warned .This measure is not meant to indicate that the highest number denotes the best or most effective yearly performance.

no statistician but

16 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

Amend that to read “. . . that the highest number necessarily denotes . . .”

Bob Eno

16 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

Maybe. When we were kids, the number that I recall dominating discussion of pitching excellence (among kids, at least) was W-L. At some point that became W-L* (This measure . . .). ERA became the gold standard, and I think it remained that until advanced metrics were developed, although W-L still had a lot of impact on Cy Young-type assessments. When I began using advanced stats, I felt ERA+ had superseded ERA*, and pWAR was kind of a black box. You probably won’t remember but at one point I became obsessed (on HHS) with new fielding metrics. I began to… Read more »

Last edited 16 days ago by Bob Eno

Bob Eno

15 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Here’s an addendum: After my last post, which ended by referring to Cardwell as the pWAR leader, I thought: I should have said NL pWAR leader! Obviously, I thought, Cy Young winner Whitey Ford, who went 25-4, must have been the MLB pWAR leader. That was my pre-teen brain speaking — Ford’s award was based on that gaudy W-L, plus the Yankees’ dominance. Ford not only wasn’t the AL pWAR leader, he wasn’t even in the ERA+ Top Ten — but neither was the pWAR leader: the Twins’ Jack Kralick, whose 13-11, 3.61 ERA, 6.0 pWAR season was positively Cardwellian.… Read more »

no statistician but

14 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Bob: Just to bring things into perspective, Ford led the league in Wins and W-L percentage, and in the games he started the team went 34-5. He also ranked first in the AL in FIP, RE24, WPA/LI, and REW. He finished second in strikeouts and in the league top ten in ERA, WHIP, SO/BB, pitching runs, pitching wins, WPA, and a variety of other categories. Against teams with winning records he was 9-2 with a 1.86 ERA. There were only 4 winning teams that year. His real challenger in the AL, Yankee killer Frank Lary, had very similar results on… Read more »

Bob Eno

14 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

Well, I’d vote for Lary above all of them, but that’s only because I loved going to see him beat the Yankees. The thing about all this is that most traditional stats are simply not in conversation with pWAR. Of course W-L is irrelevant, but so are quality starts and even W-L outcomes vs. .500+ teams. Those are not the things pWAR measures — it’s blind to outcomes on that level. I think the main counter-intuitive ingredients in pWAR are defensive strength and park factors. I’ve pointed out how Cardwell is given enormous credit for performing as he did with… Read more »

no statistician but

14 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Bob: The problem I see with the fielding business is that it’s based on a model that concerns itself in part with what didn’t happen. Derek Jeter was a less than outstanding fielder, no one denies that, but somehow his team managed to play .600 ball over his career and win their division 13 times in the 17 years that matter, finishing second three times. Was it just that his hitting more than counterbalanced the poor fielding, or did the other fielders on the team make up for his deficiencies, or perhaps did he, as many clutch players were always… Read more »

Paul E

14 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

NSB, For what it’s worth, Jim Palmer has lower-than-expected FIP numbers that are possibly due to an infield of Brooks, Belanger, Grich and a CF like Blair and all-field, no-hit catchers like Dempsey and Etchebarren. Catfish Hunter has similar issues with FIP but, probably more Oakland Coliseum related with all the large foul territory and cool weather? As for Jeter? Great teammates help cover a lot of blemishes. The way he hit, he’s a Hall of Famer if he plays left field or DH’s. But, “past a diving Jeter” was a John Sterling call as often as his famous home… Read more »

Bob Eno

14 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

nsb, I can say with absolute confidence that I’m not going to be able to persuade you about the “fielding business.” These are the sorts of issues I had with it before I began to devote time to understanding the system behind it. I found there were more things in fielding data than were dreamt of in my baseball philosophy. It was time consuming to learn about, and the sources I used were already dated then (my latest Fielding Bible is now almost a decade old) — and, honestly, my memory of those pre-pandemic studies no longer runs smooth; “mere… Read more »

no statistician but

13 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Bob:

Liked the Shakespearean touches.

Doug

12 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

Speaking of proximate no-hitters, in that same 1917 season, the White Sox and Browns played 3 no-hitters against each other. In the third game of the season, Eddie Cicotte blanked the Brownies in St. Louis. Three weeks later, these teams met again at Sportsman’s Park, and Ernie Koob tamed the bats of the world champions-to-be. The next day was a double-header occasioned by a rainout in the season-opening series. In the second game (deemed the originally scheduled game) Bob Groom again stymied White Sox hitters.

Doug

12 days ago

Congrats to Dave Parker and to the family of Dick Allen on their HoF induction.

Now, if only those committees could do right by Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker and the recently passed Luis Tiant.

no statistician but

10 days ago

Reply to Doug

Allen’s a given, but—not to disparage the choice of Dave Parker entirely, since it beats any number of vets committee picks of the past—passing over such players as the three you name plus a score of others with merits equal to or better than Parker’s is upsetting.The pick of Jack Morris a few years back at least had the merit of rewarding a guy who racked up a large number of wins and was a noted money pitcher with an iconic World Series performance to his credit. Parker? His career arc resembles somewhat that of a later contemporary, Don Mattingly,… Read more »

Bob Eno

10 days ago

Reply to Doug

I think Allen is a fine choice, even though he’s not yet in our more exclusive Circle, but Parker’s selection over Boyer, John, and Tiant is a mystery to me, as is the fact that Grich wasn’t even on the ballot. (I think Whitaker’s case belongs to a different committee.) I assume the committee members know a lot more than I do. Have any of them explained their reasoning? (Does anyone on HHS want to make the case for Parker over the others?)

Tom

6 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

I don’t want to try to make the case for Parker over others. But, the explanation for the pick isn’t a mystery. The panel as a whole does not appreciate analytics. Most wouldn’t care that Parker has a 40.1 WAR. They just remember “The Cobra,” “We are Family,” the arm, and see that he had gold gloves, a lot of HRs, a lot of RBI, and a .290 batting average. The voters: Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Tony Pérez, Lee Smith and Ozzie Smith, Joe Torre, Sandy Alderson, Terry McGuirk, Dayton Moore, Arte Moreno, Brian Sabean; Bob Elliott, Leslie Heaphy, Steve… Read more »

Bob Eno

6 days ago

Reply to Tom

Thanks for this clear account, Tom. It sounds as though we haven’t progressed very far from the days of Frankie Frisch’s Veterans Committee. The only exception I’d take with your comment is the implied view of those who are 68 and older. It’s a club I joined quite a while ago and I’ve found membership entails no barrier to learning the strengths (and limits) of advanced stats. Alderson, Sabean, and Molitor are all fellow club members. Many club members share clear memories of Ken Boyer’s play, and we show our statistical chops with our superior grasp of the economics of… Read more »

Tom

5 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

No offence intended. I’m getting there myself.

Bob Eno

5 days ago

Reply to Tom

None taken. Just a little senior humor.

Doug

10 days ago

Reply to Doug

Parker’s HoF case would be based mostly on peak value. That peak was good enough (apparently) to at least place him among outer circle HoF brethren, as evidenced by Bill James’ Hall metrics that suggest that he is definitely in the equation: Black ink: Batting – 26 (90th), Average HOFer ≈ 27 Gray ink: Batting – 145 (125th), Average HOFer ≈ 144 Hall of Fame Monitor: Batting – 125 (122nd), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 (higher score here in part due to playing on two World Series winners) Hall of Fame Standards: Batting – 42 (146th), Average HOFer ≈ 50 Hall of Stats has Parker at 78, well below Hall level. His defense… Read more »

Bob Eno

10 days ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks for compiling the case, Doug. If I recall, the HoF metrics concern who is likely to be voted in, not who deserves it. (I mean, the Black Ink test rates Pete Runnels over Boyer — it’s not a serious stat.) The exception is JAWS, which is meant to be an independent standard. The question, though, was how to justify Parker over the rejected candidates (not even considering his contemporary, Grich, whose WAR exceeds Parker by 75% — and whose WAR rate exceeds by 100+%). The explanation of peak value must involve a very short peak indeed. Compared to the… Read more »

Doug

5 days ago

Reply to Bob Eno

You’re right about James’s HoF metrics. He invented them for fun more than anything else and were just about who is likely to be elected to the Hall, not who deserves to be. Even the HoF Standards just compares season and career totals to those of HoFers, without regard to context. And, of course, with these metrics coming from the 1980s, no modern analytics were involved.

Paul E

8 days ago

Reply to Doug

Somewhat bizarre (and metaphysical?) that Allen dies 12/7/2020 and one of his closest friends and supporters in Chicago, Bill Melton, dies on 12/7/2024. Melton argued for Allen in the Hall of Fame for years and, sure enough, a day after Melton passes, Allen is elected.

Doug

5 days ago

Reply to Paul E

Thanks for the shout out on Melton, the 1971 AL HR champ and the first White Sox player with consecutive 30+ HR seasons (actually, the first White Sox player with any 30+ HR seasons). In the off-season after the 1971 season, Melton fell off his roof (after sneezing) and broke his tailbone. When he came back, he still felt sore and changed his swing (without realizing it) to avoid further pain; he never approached the 30 HR plateau again. Melton’s 154 HR for the White Sox was the franchise record until Carlton Fisk passed him in 1988.

Last edited 5 days ago by Doug

no statistician but

4 days ago

Reply to Doug

Imagine any player today repairing his own roof to save a few bucks, much less the league leader in HRs. The MINIMUM MLB salary in 2024 was $740,000.

Paul E

4 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

That minimum salary would qualify a young lad for a monthly mortgage payment of approximately $24,000/month. ($740,000/12 months x .40) Gotta believe any roofer would be glad to do the work on that home

Paul E

4 days ago

Reply to no statistician but

….and, nowadays, he’d be on the DL from March till July