Circle of Greats 2020 Redemption Round

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This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle. Instead, this round of voting will select three or more players who will be restored to the secondary ballot after having been previously dropped from eligibility.

In this vote you may include on your ballot any major league baseball player who:
– was born before 1975; and
– played a majority of his career games since 1901 or compiled 20 WAR (as measured by Baseball-Reference) since 1901; and
– has not been elected to the Circle of Greats; and
– was not among the main or secondary ballot holdovers for the last completed round of COG balloting (1974 Part 4 COG Balloting)

For this round of voting, you may vote for up to five (5) five players to cast a qualifying ballot. The players with the 3 highest vote totals, including ties, will be restored to the secondary ballot for the next round of COG voting. To assist you with your selections, career stats for the most eligible candidates are provided here (though you may vote for any qualifying player).

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Tuesday night, January 28th at 11:59PM EST. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EST on Sunday night, January 26th. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG 2020 Redemption Round Vote Tally.

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Doug

4 years ago

I’ll get the ball rolling with Fred Clarke, Billy Williams, Vic Willis, Don Drysdale and Jim Bunning.

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

I will join Doug in naming my five. I’m going to try to do some advocacy in my post, too. As many of you here may remember, I’m not super hot on the early days of baseball, so Doug and I have a few differences on our ballot. But there’s a lot of agreement. Here are my guys: 1. Don Drysdale – As some may remember, I have a history of advocating for some pitchers. I think eventually, just to appease me personally, those guys get where I would like them to be. Don Sutton is on the secondary ballot;… Read more »

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Well reasoned arguments, though explaining away Sheffield’s defense was (in my view) the weakest part of your advocacy. I’ve found that 65 WAR is a good rule of thumb for COG position players. Above that line, you probably need good reasons to exclude, and below it you’re looking for good reasons to include.

Your advocacy for Edmonds has me considering changing my vote for Williams.

Gary Bateman

4 years ago

I thought Minnie Minoso was a holdover, but if not, here is a vote for him, along with Nellie Fox, Billy Williams, Jim Bunning and Fred Clarke. If Minnie is a holdover, add Dan Quisenberry.

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Minoso is a holdover, so I will record your vote as Fox, Williams, Bunning, Clarke and Quiz.

Clicking on the link to the last COG voting post will show you the holdovers on each ballot. Note that Hideki Matsui and Bengie Molina were dropped from the secondary ballot as a result of the last round of voting, so they are eligible to receive your vote here.

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

I want to thank the BBWAA for giving us two rounds of COG voting (besides this one). I know not everyone here is happy with one of the selections… I won’t name names, though. 😉 I also just want to say that I continue to look forward to this tradition/obligation/privilege every January and February. I know that a lot of our arguments are re-hashed, year after year. Yet, every single year, I get a new way of looking at some player or issue. Every year, sure, many things will become more entrenched and more fixed in my mind. But on… Read more »

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

At some point, things will start to slow down; maybe 2021 will be the year.

There have been 22 players elected since 2014, after no selections in 2013. Next highest number over 7 years is only 15 (1951-56). The years 2015-18 (and 2016-19) had 13 selections, surpassing even the first four years of elections (1936-39) with 12 selections.

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Doom
Mea Culpa:
.395 .448 .705 Chuck Klein at Baker Bowl
.381 .462 .710 The Legend at Coors Field

I believe Klein is one of the more ‘suspect’ members at Cooperstown. Granted, he’s no Chick Hafey, though

Author

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

FWIW, neutralized stats are:

Klein—— .299 .357 .506 .862
Walker— .289 .373 .522 .895

Klein career normalized to 1997 Coors—— .338 .398 .570 0.968
Walker career normalized to 1930 Baker— .341 .430 .615 1.045

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug, How about?: Klein’s career normalized to 1930 Baker – .351 .413 . 594 1.007 1997-2002 Walker 775 G 3,227 PA 157 OPS+ These are Walker’s best 6 consecutive seasons per OPS+ 1929-1933 Chucky 759 G 3,436 PA 160 OPS+ These are Klein’s best 5 consecutive seasons per OPS+ Finally, 4.25 R/G, the neutralized standard: .289 .373 .522 Walker .299 .357 .506 Klein Splitting hairs, Walker and Klein played in the greatest offensive eras in the game’s history and, in the midst of their respective eras, played in the most ridiculously offense favoring parks. I’ll go out on limb here… Read more »

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

“Good hitter hits well in good hitters’ park” is not much of a surprise. But the two have VERY divergent stories if you look at their production elsewhere: .277/.338/.407 Klein AWAY from the Baker Bowl .282/.375/.501 Walker AWAY from Coors Walker away from Coors was basically Prince Fielder (.283/.382/.506). Klein away from the Baker Bowl was basically Wally Pipp (.281/.341/.408). A substantial difference, I would say. And since both players played in very similar offensive environments, the comparisons basically hold. I will take the monster at home who, even on the road, is Prince Fielder. Seems like a pretty good… Read more »

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Doom,
“.282/.375/.501 Walker AWAY from Coors” in the midst of the greatest hitter’s era of the last 80 years. Is that truly exceptional? Is the Vegan Prince a HoF’er?
But, he’s in Cooperstown on July 26th and working on his speech as we type. Not so sure one of those guys from Fangraphs isn’t going to be intrducing him.

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

For road numbers? When he doesn’t get to play at the best hitter’s park on the league? Yeah those are good enough, particularly for an elite defender. To me, there’s an argument that he doesn’t belong in the COG. But the bar for the HOF is soooooo much lower. He’s solidly a Hall of Fame player.

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Doom,
“He’s solidly a Hall of Fame player.”

10th ballot, 76.6 % of the BBWAA vote? I can’t say that the BBWAA was all THAT convinced. But, he’s in. And, he can enjoy it for the rest of his life. Good for him, no kidding

Mike L

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Paul E, sometimes I look at WAR as a function of either IP or PA. One thing I thought was interesting was that Walker put up 1 WAR per 127 PA in Montreal and 1WAR per 99 in Colorado. And he was particularly poor in the Astrodome: 162 PA, 1HR, 9RBI, .217/.304/.308, and PAC Bell: 117PA, 2HR, 11RBI, .208/.350/333, and Shea 267PA, 8HR, 34 RBI, .218/.296/.399 Not sure how to contextualize that.

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Mike L “good hitter fails to hit in pitcher’s park” ? I dunno, but the 22% increase in WAR production rate might not be all that uncommon among players when entering their ‘prime’. By the same token, he’s got an awful lot of ground to cover in RF in Colorado and, perhaps that further enhanced his dWAR rate and WAR overall? He’s clocking at 1 oWAR per 179 PA’s in MTL and 1 oWAR per 110 PA’s in COL. That represents an improvement of 38 % and might be unprecedented. But, proving that would take a lot spreadsheeting beyond my… Read more »

Mike L

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Beyond my pay grade as well. Thought it was interesting. Most of the true superstars are that way from a young age. Walker was a very good player in Montreal. Had his peak year at age 30 in Colorado in 1997.

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to Mike L

One thing to remember about Walker’s younger days was how raw a talent he was, having had very little exposure to baseball prior to being signed (he was a hockey player who thought baseball was “boring”). So, he had to cover a lot of development ground quickly in his early years (and likely needed to recover some of the same ground after reconstructive knee surgery wiped out his entire 1988 season, the year before he first made the big club). Given his evidently exceptional natural talent, quick and large improvements may not be too surprising.

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Castilla 1 oWAR per 263 PA’s while a Rockie(y ?); 0.1 in 2,933 PA’s otherwise
Galarraga 1 in 190; 1 in 324
Burks 1 in 147; 1 in 154 (I guess it’s possible not to have extremes)
Holliday 1 in 149; 1 in 171

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Got curious: .306 .370 .431 – Derek Jeter, away from home .283 .344 .459 – Cal Ripken, away from home .306 .347 .463 – Roberto Clemente, away from home .312 .376 .536 – Vladimir Guerrero, away from home .300 .361 .491 – Ryne Sandberg, away from home .302 .387 .395 – Wade Boggs, away from home (over .150 less than home numbers) .292 .363 .432 – Roberto Alomar, away from home .293 .389 .501 – Chipper Jones, away from home —- .299 .367 .463 – mean of the above .282 .375 .501 – Walker away from Coors Honestly, Walker is… Read more »

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I appreciate the research. A mish-mash of infielders and a Clemente who played in the second dead-ball era. Guerrero was a 1st ballot (I believe) inductee and a guy who was on the field for 150 games year-in, year-out (145 G or more in 10 seasons). Walker suffered from some nagging injuries and often played partial seasons. He had ONE seaon of greater than 143 games. As far as Boggs and his “over .150 less than home numbers”, Walker was 1.172 OPS at Coors and that number is nearly .300 greater than his “away from Coors” numbers. There are a… Read more »

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

It’s an odd type for which to find a comp., much less a group of them. “Short-career, high-defensive-value, corner outfielder, played in either the 1930s or 1990s, solid Hall of Fame player but not Ted Williams or Joe DiMaggio or something.” There aren’t a lot of those (Guerrero… who else comes to mind? That’s part of what you do when you make up a comparison group; you find similar-but-not-identical. This seemed a pretty good group. Maybe Earl Averill (.292/.368/.478), though he played Center. Still, pretty good comp, .150 H-R disparity, As for the last question, I mean, Walker was voted… Read more »

Author

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Among 269 players in P-I database with 4000 PA away from home, Walker ranks 43rd in away OPS. Vlad, arguably his best comp, ranks 22nd (Vlad posted 1.134 OPS at Coors, 13th highest among all players with 100+ PA). Obviously, Walker is not inner circle (or he would have gotten in long before now), but top 50 is certainly a creditable ranking for any HOFer.

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug, Since you’re using OPS and not OPS+ and he played in a ‘lively’ offensive era, just curious how many of his contemporaries rank ahead of him in mere OPS. Like, he’s not a better hitter than Dick Allen but, since Allen played in the 60’s, his OPS is less than Walker’s….or, Chick Hafey is not a better hitter than Stargell but, same story about a different offensive era. I believe, at one time, way back when, I found 20 or so ‘contemporaries’ of Walker whose career OPS was greater than Walker’s road OPS. I heard it from the John… Read more »

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug,
There are an additonal 19 major leaguers with 7,000 (!!) PA’s who exceeded .280 / .370 / .502 for their careers in the period 1985 through 2010. That’s not all-time; that’s a mere 25 year period. Obviously, many of these guys’ numbers are inflated by the era they played in – just like Larry. To his credit, his overall OPS+ is 141 (including COL home games). This 141 OPS+ is good for 11th among his contemporaries

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Reply to Paul E

I have to say, I think it’s a problem to include home game when comparing players to Walker. Most players hit better at home, often 10-20% better (or more). Few are the players who got better on the road… but even for them (like Ripken, whom I used), it’s fairer to only consider road numbers. I find it very hard to believe you’d find 19 guys who hit better than Walker on the road. Also, if you’re one of the best 20 hitters in a 25 year period and you play great defense… isn’t that, like the definition of a… Read more »

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Nothing like a little scrutiny every once in a while….I’ll lower it to 5000 PA’s for the period

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I’m getting a mish -mash for > 5,000+ PA’s in the period 1960-1985…..Keith Hernandez, Bobby Bonds, Yaz and Kaline (too many G and PA as a comp)…Joe Morgan (wrong position) Singleton (immobile) Carty (immobile) Carew (long career) Luzinski (immobile). Are Hernandez and Bonds Hall of Famers? I dunno…. Best comp? Maybe Billy Williams? But, Williams played day-in, day-out, (averaged 160 G/YR for 12 years!), didn’t even take an occassional seat against a tough LH, played in a very low-scoring era and amassed 2,700+ hits and 900 XBH. As far as “great defense”, obviously it’s a plus for Walker. But, RF… Read more »

Andy

4 years ago

Jim Edmonds, Gary Sheffield, Don Drysdale, Stan Coveleski, and Dennis Eckersley

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Reply to Andy

Eckersley has already been elected. You’ll have to choose another player for your 5th if you want Doug to count your ballot. Thanks.

Andy

4 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Thanks for the heads up. In lieu of Eckersley, I will add David Cone.

Dave Humbert

4 years ago

Reply to Andy

I think Coveleski is a holdover on the secondary ballot, so you need someone else for that slot (not Smith, Irvin, Minoso or Eckersley either – all added in last years redemption)

Andy

4 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Ha, I will eventually choose players actually eligible. Instead of Coveleski, please add Sal Bando.

Josh Davis

4 years ago

Hal Newhouser
Joe Torre
Kirby Puckett
Keith Hernandez
Gary Sheffield

JEV

4 years ago

Sheffield
Palmeiro
Drysdale
Clarke
Coveleski

Dave Humbert

4 years ago

Reply to JEV

I think Coveleski is a holdover on the secondary ballot, so you need someone else for that slot (not Smith, Irvin, Minoso or Eckersley either – all added in last years redemption)

JEV

4 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Ok. Change to Edmonds.

opal611

4 years ago

Hello! Just to confirm, Eckersley was elected in the last round, correct?

He is showing up on the link above where it says “To assist with your selections, career stats for the most eligible candidates are provided”. So Just wanted to make sure!

Thanks!

opal611

4 years ago

Reply to opal611

Coveleski is also listed there and I believe he is on the Secondary Ballot. Correct?

Thanks!

opal611

4 years ago

Reply to opal611

Smith also seems to still be on the Secondary Ballot. Correct?

*I see someone else posted about this recently as well, so apologies for the duplication!

Hub Kid

4 years ago

Reply to opal611

Reggie Smith isn’t in need of (or eligible for) redemption votes; I think he’s still on the main ballot (over 10% in the last vote).

Doug

4 years ago

Reply to opal611

Sorry, haven’t cleaned up that list. Focus on the qualifying criteria in making your selections.

Voomo

4 years ago

There’s not 5 guys on the list whom I would vote into the COG, but i offer redemption to these gentlemen:

Red Faber
Jack Quinn
Mark McGwire
Orel Hershiser
Addie Joss

opal611

4 years ago

For the 2020 Redemption Round, I’m voting for:

-Rafael Palmeiro
-Buddy Bell
-Tommy John
-Mark McGwire
-David Cone

Thanks!

Hub Kid

4 years ago

I vote: Fred Clarke, Hal Newhouser, Urban Shocker, Billy Williams, Jim Wynn

Doug

4 years ago

For clarity, here are the players currently on the CoG ballots (main and secondary), and therefore NOT eligible to receive your votes.
MAIN: Luis Tiant, Dick Allen, Manny Ramirez, Bill Dahlen, Graig Nettles, Bobby Wallace, Ted Lyons, Don Sutton, Richie Ashburn, Andre Dawson, Ted Simmons, Rick Reuschel
SECONDARY: Willie Randolph, Todd Helton, Bobby Abreu, Stan Coveleski, Monte Irvin, Minnie Minoso, Andy Pettitte, Ken Boyer, Reggie Smith

Doug

4 years ago

After 9 voters (45 votes):
4 – Clarke, Drysdale, Sheffield
3 – Bunning, Edmonds, McGwire, Billy Williams
2 – Cone, Newhouser, Palmeiro
1 – Bando, Bell, Faber, Fox, Hernandez, Hershiser, John, Joss, Puckett, Quinn, Quisenberry, Shocker, Torre, Willis, Jim Wynn

Paul E

4 years ago

I’m off my steroids high horse:
Sheffield, Palmeiro, Joss, Willis, Billy Williams

Richard Chester

4 years ago

Here’s my list:

Hal Newhouser
Earl Averill
Gary Sheffield
Don Drysdale
Billy Williams

Dave Humbert

4 years ago

Redemption time:

Palmeiro
Clarke
Billy Williams
Drysdale
McGinnity

Getting hard to find separations from the pack: McGinnity packed a lot into 10 yrs, Drysdale adds value with bat, Palmeiro’s 3000H harder to ignore, Clarke and Williams highly productive in their times

Paul E

4 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Dave,
….and McGinnity won close to 500 games overall in organized baseball. That has to be considered to ‘some’ degree as far as overall contribution to the sport, no?

Dr. Doom

4 years ago

Players with multiple votes, with less than a day left:
6 – Drysdale, Sheffield, B. Williams
5 – Clarke
4 – Palmeiro
3 – Bunning, Edmonds, McGwire, Newhouser
2 – Cone, Joss, Willis

Michael Sullivan

4 years ago

Cone, Drysdale, Edmonds, Sheffield, McGwire.

Author

Doug

4 years ago

Final results for 13 voters and 65 votes.
7 – Drysdale, Sheffield
6 – Billy Williams
5 – Clarke
4 – Edmonds, McGwire, Palmeiro
3 – Bunning, Cone, Newhouser
2 – Joss, Willis
1 – Averill, Bando, Bell, Faber, Fox, Hernandez, Hershiser, John, McGinnity, Puckett, Quinn, Quisenberry, Shocker, Torre, Jim Wynn

Drysdale, Sheffield and Williams are elevated to the secondary ballot.