Quiz: some of these guys are not like the others (solved)

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Here’s a list of some of the all-time great sluggers, plus a few others in a different class. Your task is to identify the career accomplishment shared only by these retired players.

Babe Ruth
Mark McGwire
Barry Bonds
Jim Thome
Adam Dunn
Russell Branyan
Dave Kingman
Rob Deer

Congratulations to Elkboy! (and welcome to HHS). He knew that only these retired players recorded Isolated Power higher than Batting Average in a 3000 PA career. More after the jump.

Here are our quiz players with their career stats.

Rk	Player	ISO	BA	TB	PA	From	To	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	OBP	SLG	OPS
1	Babe Ruth	.348	.342	5793	10622	1914	1935	2174	2873	506	136	714	2214	2062	1330	.474	.690	1.164
2	Mark McGwire	.325	.263	3639	7660	1986	2001	1167	1626	252	6	583	1414	1317	1596	.394	.588	.982
3	Barry Bonds	.309	.298	5976	12606	1986	2007	2227	2935	601	77	762	1996	2558	1539	.444	.607	1.051
4	Jim Thome	.278	.276	4667	10313	1991	2012	1583	2328	451	26	612	1699	1747	2548	.402	.554	.956
5	Adam Dunn	.253	.237	3371	8328	2001	2014	1097	1631	334	10	462	1168	1317	2379	.364	.490	.854
6	Russell Branyan	.253	.232	1423	3398	1998	2011	405	682	143	8	194	467	403	1118	.329	.485	.814
7	Dave Kingman	.242	.236	3191	7429	1971	1986	901	1575	240	25	442	1210	608	1816	.302	.478	.780
8	Rob Deer	.222	.220	1717	4513	1984	1996	578	853	148	13	230	600	575	1409	.324	.442	.766

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/26/2016.

To appear on this list, players must have averaged better than two bases per hit. Mark McGwire leads the way in that stat, averaging 2.24 bases per hit.

These are the active players meeting the PA requirement and currently averaging 1.95 or more bases per hit.

Rk	Player	ISO	BA	TB	H	PA	From	To	Age	R	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	OBP	SLG	OPS
1	Giancarlo Stanton	.277	.269	1437	709	3033	2010	2016	20-26	406	152	9	186	479	361	862	.361	.546	.908
2	Ryan Howard	.256	.261	2813	1421	6237	2004	2016	24-36	819	267	21	361	1144	688	1748	.347	.517	.865
3	Chris Davis	.252	.254	1614	811	3592	2008	2016	22-30	491	168	4	209	562	338	1116	.330	.506	.836
4	Mark Reynolds	.222	.230	1910	973	4866	2007	2016	23-32	620	197	13	238	666	557	1537	.324	.452	.776

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 4/26/2016.

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Dr. Doom

8 years ago

I’m sure it’s there true outcomes related, because these are the all-time leaders.

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Actually it’s not TTO-related, or only very indirectly to one of the three.

John

8 years ago

Dunn, Kingman and Deer had prodigious strike out totals. Is it something connected with that?

elkboy

8 years ago

Career slugging percentage more than double their career batting average?

brp

8 years ago

Reply to elkboy

This seems like it would be close, I got 9 results on the PI (not subscriber so don’t know who they were).

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to brp

The 9 players are the 8 on Doug’s list plus Giancarlo Stanton who is still active. The answer is SLG > twice BA with 3000+ PA and inactive. The answer can be found without a PI subscription. Set the PI as follows:
Combined Seasons
SLG > 2*BA
Active: No
PA> 120
Sort by By PA in ascending order

The answer can also be determined by using Fangraphs plus Excel spreadsheets.

Doug

8 years ago

I’ll give it to Elkboy.

A simpler formulation is retired players with ISO greater than BA in 3000 PA career.

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

This is really interesting. I guess I was off base with my initial suggestion. However, it’s not that surprising that the high-TTO guys end up here. It will be really interesting to see if Ryan Howard gets here by the end of his career. Right now, he’s at a .261 BA and a .256 ISO. He spent much of his career with ISO>BA. It flipped in 2014 when he decided he didn’t have any power anymore. But still, I won’t be surprised if it flips back again before he retires.

Dr. Doom

8 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Mike Schmidt was also very close. As late as 1985, he had ISO>BA, and following his MVP season in 1986, they were both .268. Too many singles in 1987 buried him into a hole he couldn’t climb out of.

Lawrence Azrin

8 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Gorman Thomas and Harmon Killebrew are also very close: THOMAS: .223 ISO, .225 BA KILLEBREW: .253 ISO, .256 BA Babe Ruth is the only one of the nine above with a BA (way) over .300, of .342; Barry Bonds is close at a .298 BA. …Just another of the countless ways to reinforce Ruth’s unique greatness. Obviously, the lower the BA is, the less impressive this feat is; after Ruth/ Bonds/ Thome/ McGwire, I don’t think you’d call any of the five sluggers ‘great’ hitters. Still, quite fascinating – thanks, Doug! A somewhat related diversion would be who comes closest… Read more »

Daniel Longmire

8 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

This is why I’m of the opinion that the contemporary approach to hitting will inevitably have to change in the modern environment, with its focus on power pitching. So many hitters are still of the belief that the best way to challenge these flamethrowers is with harder swings and a more aggressive approach, and we see the results of that with ever-climbing K totals and shrinking walks (see Doug’s earlier post on this). Strikeouts create zero chances for runner advancement, and put no pressure on the defense, so the newer generation of hitters are quantifiably less effective at manufacturing runs.… Read more »

no statistician but

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Daniel:

I haven’t searched everywhere, but I’d guess J. Dimaggio would be at the top of the live ball era list in this new statistic of yours: 851/369 or 2.306 XBH/K.

Some others:
Yogi—728/414 or 1.758
G. Brett—1119/906 or 1.235
And—surprise
A. Pujols—1195/990 or 1.177.

The fact that Puhols has been able to be a slugger and still have reasonable K totals, even in his decline, says something in support of your premise.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Here are the top 5 XBH/K ratios for players with 3000+ PA from 1920 and on.
5.22 ….. Tris Speaker
4.85 ….. Joe Sewell
3.50 ….. Tommy Holmes
3.44 ….. Stuffy McInnis
3.28 ….. Sam Rice
Holmes is the only one with all his PA after 1940.

no statistician but

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Richard:

Is there anyone, though, with some career-long home run pop—Holmes’s 1945 season is an anomaly—who bests Dimaggio?

Or a similar player later who bests Berra, Brett, or Pujols? I’m asking because you’ve got the skills and access to track this and I don’t.

Richard Chester

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Reply to post 14. Here are the top 10 for players with 300+ HR.

2.39 ….. Joe DiMaggio
1.98 ….. Stan Musial
1.76 ….. Yogi Berra
1.58 ….. Ted Williams
1.54 ….. Johnny Mize
1.51 ….. Lou Gehrig
1.49 ….. Rogers Hornsby
1.48 ….. Chuck Klein
1.35 ….. Al Simmons
1.23 ….. George Brett

Kahuna Tuna

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

According to the Play Index, only 40 players in major-league history with more than 100 plate appearances have compiled extra-base hits at more than twice the rate of strikeouts. The skill translates well enough into overall offensive effectiveness that 32 of these players got more than 3,000 career plate appearances. It really is an emblem of old-school baseball. The most recent of these players (Nellie Fox) retired in 1965. The full list: Mike Schemer (1945-1946), 115 PA, 5 XBH, 1 K, 5.000 ratio Joe Sewell (1920-1933), 8333 PA, 553 XBH, 114 K, 4.850 ratio Tommy Holmes (1942-1952), 5563 PA, 427… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Following up on my long post, Denny Doyle in 1975 established a career high in extra-base hits (27) in a season when he had the fewest plate appearances of any season in his big-league career (353). I wonder how many other players have ever accomplished the same feat.

Daniel Longmire

8 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Wow, I didn’t expect this much of a response! Thanks for the research, everyone (esp. Kahuna’s exhaustive work). Pujols as the modern leader doesn’t surprise me too much, as he hasn’t exceeded 76 K since his rookie season. I’m actually shocked that Gwynn managed NINE 2+ XBH/K seasons, but Boggs could never muster a single one, considering his knack for doubles and puny strikeout totals.

A small correction, NSB: Pujols actually has 1165 XBH, but the ratio you quote is correct, so I’m assuming there was a slip of the finger. :^)

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Lawrence’s guess is correct.

Gavvy Cravath does have the highest ISO to BA ratio (0.67) among players with 3000 PA from 1893 to 1919.

Lawrence Azrin

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

Due to the vastly decreased frequency of HRs pre-1920, I should’ve set the ratio of ISO to BA much lower for predominantly pre-1920 players – perhaps 40%, or maybe even lower. Eyeballing some of the most prolific pre-1920 EXBH batters, even Cobb, Speaker, Wagner and Delahanty don’t get much over 40%.

Author

Doug

8 years ago

Reply to Doug

These players have the highest ISO to BA ratios for 1893 to 1919, all above 0.45. Rk Player ISO BA Ratio PA From To Tm 1 Gavvy Cravath .191 .287 .666 4588 1908 1919 BOS-WSH-CHW-PHI 2 Ed Delahanty .176 .373 .472 6186 1893 1903 PHI-WSH 3 Buck Freeman .168 .294 .571 4599 1898 1907 WHS-BSN-BOS 4 Vic Saier .146 .263 .555 3435 1911 1919 CHC-PIT 5 Charlie Hickman .145 .295 .492 4252 1897 1908 BSN-NYG-CLE-BOS-DET-WSH-CHW 6 Sam Crawford .143 .309 .463 10594 1899 1917 CIN-DET 7 Sherry Magee .136 .291 .467 8541 1904 1919 PHI-BSN-CIN 8 Harry Davis .131 .277… Read more »

Doug

8 years ago

Responding to Kahuna Tuna @17. Interesting question about establishing a career high in XBH in lowest PA season. I tweaked that question a bit to look only at 300 PA seasons since 1920, and only at players with at least 5 such seasons. Surprisingly (to me), I found 16 others like Doyle including one of the quiz players (Rob Deer). Here they are: Jim Leyritz actually had his career high in XBH in the following strike-shortened 1994 season, with 29 XBH in 293 PA. None of these players were like Doyle in having no seasons under 300 PA; the closest… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna

8 years ago

Denny Doyle—one of a kind: Only player since 1920 with five or more 300+-PA seasons to achieve his season high in XBH in the same season in which his 300+ plate appearances was his absolute career low. Just as I’d suspected. (-;þ Thanks, Doug.