Circle of Greats Recap

Our project at High Heat Stats to elect our version of the Hall of Fame has completed (for now) after 121 rounds of balloting, and 121 players elected to the Circle of Greats (COG). This matches the number of Hall of Fame (HOF) members elected by the Baseball Writers Association of America (BBWAA). As the BBWAA elects additional members in future years, the intention is to resume COG balloting at those times to maintain a matching number of honorees.

This post provides analysis of HOF and COG selections, identifying where our voters agreed with the BBWAA and where we differed. I’ve also provided comparison to Adam Darowski‘s Hall of Stats to see the similarities and differences between Adam’s selections and the HOF and COG honorees.

More after the jump.

As our intention was to compare COG selections with those by the BBWAA, let’s start there. Here’s the result in a table that can be searched or sorted to your preference.

[table id=285 /]

.

Summarizing these results provides this view of the COG membership.

COG by HOF Status
So, more than three-quarters of our COG selections were also selected to the Hall of Fame by the BBWAA. Of the remaining 28 players, 11 were selected to the Hall of Fame by other committees and 8 were on the 2016 BBWAA ballot. Remaining are five players not eligible for HOF selection (three will become eligible shortly) and four who are eligible but are still waiting for election.

Let’s look at those 28 players that we chose and the BBWAA did not.

COG Not BBWAA Selected
In effect, our selections above were made in preference to the players below that the BBWAA selected and we passed on, or have not yet selected. To be quite correct, the BBWAA did not “pass” on all of the players above. Those selected by the Old Timers Committee probably were deemed ineligible to be selected by the BBWAA (I say “probably” because I don’t know enough about the history of HOF voting to know exactly which players the BBWAA considered or did not consider).

Those caveats aside, I think we’ve done a pretty good job; for the most part, our selections look (to me) more defensible than the ones below made by the BBWAA that we passed on.

HOF Not COG Selected
Let’s compare the COG and BBWAA selections by position. Here are the COG choices.

COG by Position
Our choices show a clear preference for “strength up the middle” with the top positions being (in order) pitcher, second base, shortstop and catcher (tied with first base). The chart is a bit too finely granulated to see clearly, so here’s a higher level summary.

COG by Position Group

So, after pitchers, almost an even split between outfielders and middle infielders. How does that compare to the BBWAA selections?

BBWAA by Position GroupA bit different story.The BBWAA has more pitchers than the COG and, instead of being evenly split as in  the COG, the BBWAA favors outfielders over middle infielders by a 3 to 2 ratio. Corner infielders and catchers are represented in about the same proportions as in the COG.

Here’s another way to look at the data above.

COG-BBWAA by PositionThe brown bars represent common selections by the COG and the BBWAA, while blue were selected only by the BBWAA and green only by the COG. I’ve broken out pitchers into starters and relievers, as the BBWAA preference for recognizing top relievers is in marked contrast to the COG.

Hall of Stats

To close, here’s a look at how our COG selections compare to Adam Darowski’s Hall of Stats. If you haven’t seen Adam’s website, I strongly encourage you to do so; it’s an outstanding piece of work. What Adam has done is to remove subjectivity entirely from the selection process in choosing an alternate Hall of Fame based solely on statistical measures (all the details are explained on the site).

A Hall of Stats rating is calculated for every major league player with those scoring 100 or above and who have been retired for 5 seasons (as in HOF eligibility) being enshrined into the Hall of Stats (HOS). The rating scale is adjusted so that the number of players with a 100 or higher score (currently 217) matches the number of players elected (by all committees) to the Hall of Fame (one wrinkle is that players on the bubble with a HOS rating close to 100 could drop below 100, and out of the HOS, as the HOS rating is recalibrated when additional players become eligible for HOS enshrinement).

Here are our COG members again, showing their HOS rating and rank.

[table id=286 /]

.

As the HOS includes all players in its ratings and rankings, to compare to the COG selections, I’ve made the cutoff at ranking position 131, as there are ten 19th century players not eligible for the COG who are ranked in the top 131 in the HOS (and, thus, 121 COG-eligible players in those top 131). Here are the players the HOS likes in preference to our COG selections.

HOS Not COG Selected
Fewer differences between the COG and HOS, than was the case between the COG and BBWAA selections. And, most of the differences, as would be expected, are in the borderline cases close to the bubble with several of the higher ranked exceptions still on the COG ballot (Resuchel was just dropped from the ballot in the last round of COG balloting).

The players below ranked outside the top 131 in the HOS (or are not yet eligible for the HOS) and were selected to the COG in preference to the higher ranked players above.

COG Not HOS Selected

The three COG selections currently not eligible for the HOS will make it with ease. The three catchers in this list ranked outside the top 131 are indicative of a subjective allowance given by COG voters owing to the demands of the position often limiting career length. There is also an allowance given in the HOS ratings (thus, only Campanella is below a 100 HOS rating), otherwise Hartnett and Cochrane would be even further down the list and possibly also below a 100 rating.

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Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago

Wonderful, wonderful stuff which I will be a while in digesting before I make any further comments.

I’m just weighing in now to point out that Adam’s Hall of Stats does actually make a positional adjustment for catchers altho it doesn’t for things like time lost to military service or segregation.

bstar
8 years ago

Thanks for this recap, Doug.

Minor correction to the last sentence: the Hall of Stats does make an upward adjustment for catchers (and relievers). I believe it’s a 20% boost in both WAR and WAA. Without it, as Adam says, there would be very few catchers and zero relievers in the HOS.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Thanks for the correction. I’ll amend accordingly.

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

Doug: Maybe it’s just an impression, but you seem a tad on the defensive about how the COG and HOS line up. To me the fact that all COG electees except Campanella made the cut at the Hall of Stats says something positive about the validity of both evaluations (except for the fact that Harmon Killebrew is in both lists). Further, I think, without checking every name, that all the players still on the COG ballot are in the HOS. Lastly, Adam’s approach does give a surface impression of impartiality, but in fact it shows, not just a bias toward… Read more »

mosc
mosc
8 years ago

well HOS has a lot more spots in it than the COG.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago

Didn’t mean for that impression to have formed. I’m actually very impressed that, with a couple of exceptions, the top 100 in the HOS are a complete match with COG selections and those still on the COG ballot. And the fact that there is some variance after that just shows the difference between selections with some element of subjectivity versus those that derive systematically from computation (with the bias, as you say, in how the computations are performed, a bias mitigated only in part by being applied uniformly to all). And, having an element of subjectivity is not bad. Without… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Adam himself recognized many of the limitations of the Hall of Stats. It makes no adjustments (beyond what WAR already does) for era, or for time lost to things like war & segregation, or for how players performed in the post-season. He even has his own personal HOF on the website, which differs from the HOS. I think it’s possible that our voting format may have shortchanged a few of the guys that came along at the end- Dahlen, Wallace, maybe even Clarke and Burkett. Maybe a player or 2 made it in because they came on the market at… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

One of the things folks were interested in discussing is who they think the ‘worst’ CoG members are. To get things started, here are the players I had reservations about: Boudreau Grich Killebrew Koufax Ryan Sisler Waddell Walker Walsh Whitaker Wilhelm I don’t what it is about names starting with W…. In any case, my caveats about each of these players are probably fairly obvious, but feel free to inquire if you’re not sure why I wasn’t sure about any of them. Although I didn’t vote for anyone on the above list (except once, for Koufax, to help get him… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Did Sisler get to hit in a great park in a high offense era? Sisler’s stats vs Sisler’s stats neutralized to a 2014 AL neutral park: .340 / .379 / .468 / .847 .328 / .367 / .451 / .818 Most of his counting stats stay roughly the same. ____________________ Those three years that jump out at you: .407 / .449 / .632 / 1.082 .371 / .411 / .560 / .971 .420 / .467 / .594 / 1.061 become: .385 / .426 / .596 / 1.022 .334 / .373 / .503 / .876 .393 / .439 / .559 /… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I’d say Sisler and Aparicio were contrasts, not comps. Like, let’s say, a Steak and an Apple Pie. Both are food; otherwise anything they have in common is incidental. The HOS, by the way, gives Sisler a 111 rating and he’s in. He’s also in in all six other consensus ratings. HOS rates Luis at 93 and he’s out, and also out in three of the other six consensus ratings. I’m not saying that these things prove anything, but they do give a picture that is hard to discount. My own view is simply that here we have a case… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

To continue David Horwich’s thought, I came up with my list of COGers that I did not support/least preferred: Campanella – Even with credit for what-could-have-been, not quite top 121 Killebrew – HR are nice, but other production a bit light for upper-tier 1B-3B Sisler – Very good at hitting (singles), beneficiary of lean birth years when he came on ballot Gordon – Also benefitted from weak birth years, felt others were more deserving, and he retired at 35 Grich – How did a guy with 1833 H and a .266 BA get 70 WAR, still mystifies me Boudreau –… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

“Grich – How did a guy with 1833 H and a .266 BA get 70 WAR, still mystifies me” Well let’s start with defense. There’s little doubt that Grich was a great defensive second baseman, particularly early in his career. He came up as a shortstop but was moved because the O’s already had Belanger. Reports at the time indicate that his defense at shortstop was fairly comparable to Belanger’s. WAR gives him +82 Rfield and another 61 runs for playing second base. Now offense. The thing about Grich is that he played his entire career in pitcher’s parks during… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Those 1972 Orioles- Grich’s first full season in the majors- only allowed 430 runs. The team ERA was 2.53. Yet their 3rd place finish that year was the worst in his 7 years on the team. He wasn’t quite as successful in his tenure with the Halo’s altho the previously perennial non-contenders made their first 3 post-season appearances during his time with them plus 3 additional 2nd place finishes. Two teams- and prior to the advent of the wild card- with 7 first place and 5 additional 2nd place finishes in his17 seasons. And in 7 of those 17 seasons… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Grich was the first player whose stature was completely transformed for me by Bill James’s advanced stats (maybe Grich and Sisler at the same time, in opposite directions). I had viewed him as firmly “above average,” and then James came along and showed he was a star – it completely counter-intuitive at the time, and I resisted accepting it for awhile. But it was persuasive. One other comment on Dave Humbert’s list, about Jackson. I don’t think any steroid guys were rejected outright. I think voters calculated a discount of their stats and voted in those whose quality was enough… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago

A really interesting post buried in Adam’s Hall of Stats site is The Hall of Consensus, a listing of the Hall of Fame and seven alternate versions by himself and others, including Bryan O’Connor, to name just one. All the seven alternate versions are unanimous in including every COG electee but Lofton, who gets six votes out of the seven, and Campanella, who gets five. This is a really interesting post for anyone who wants to take the time to examine it. Since I can’t get links to work on this site, I’ll just give directions: Go to the Hall… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago

It would be interesting to me to review the rationales for the disparity between the Hall of Stats and CoG choices, especially since the number is so limited. (In the case of Baker vs. Bell, of course, we’re talking about a margin of error distinction between third basemen, but Bell hasn’t even wound up on the current CoG ballot, magnifying that distance.) For example, in looking at the 17 HOS “qualifiers” for the top 121 (131) slots whom we did not pick, 5 are easily explained in a few words: for Wallace, Clarke, and Dahlen, there has been distrust of… Read more »

Doug
Doug
8 years ago

Good thought. Here’s a start: Pitchers COG: Waddell, Marichal, Wilhelm, Ford, Koufax HOS: Willis, Coveleski, Lyons, Newhouser, Reuschel, Cone Here’s what I suspect was in most COG voters’ minds, when choosing our slate over the HOS picks. Waddell over Willis because of the strikeouts (i.e. a skill that he was indisputably best at). But, I don’t think Willis got much of a look. He’s got almost 4000 IP, 67 WAR, eight 20 win seasons, but limited black ink. Coveleski – 65 WAR (in only 3000 IP), .600 W-L%, 1920 WS hero. But, limited black ink. Lyons – lots of career… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Doug

To add a little to what Doug says: Reuschel – I know that I (and some others) were a little skeptical of a 9.4 WAR season… and then a 6.2 as a second best. Then a few in the 5.7 range. But the peak is just NOT as good as what a lot of us were looking at. And if you’re at all skeptical of that one season, or if you just expect a peak to last more than one year, Reuschel looks a little thin. Cone – This one is a little puzzling, but I think the many, many,… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Hmm…isn’t Kevin Brown in the HOS but not the COG? Or did I miss something?

Anyway, I have no doubt that we were just as influenced by name recognition as anyone. Even as an Indians fan, the name Stan Coveleski, doesn’t mean much to me.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Yup. Missed Brown. My mistake.

Brown – Lots of good years, but limited black ink (led once in wins, and twice in ERA). Hurt by reputation as malcontent and by lots of competition among better contemporaries.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

I really thought the issue with Brown was PEDs. I know there were several voters who said they could not support him because a PED discount would move him down below the CoG border, as was not the case with, say, Bonds and Clemens. His problematic behavior was, I think, discussed as linked to PED use, and not something that did him in on its own. David P’s comment on Coveleski indicates what I see as a weakness in our work. Although some candidates from earlier eras provoked so much discussion that voters who are simply not familiar with those… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

Brown was addressed in epm’s original comment about 6 players that could easily be explained in a few words. The fact is that at that level- say between #100 and #140- some small change in how WAR is calculated or whatever formula you are using or just thinking about something a little differently can reshuffle the entire deck, I would love to see a comparison between JAWS & the HOS. I suspect that even if you account for JAWS making no adjustment for pre-1893 or relief pitchers or catchers you will find a fair amount of variance. In large part… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

EPM, I was a Brown holdout. I didn’t vote for any PED users all the way through. I believe MLB is going to move to a point where the dam will crack, and several of the steroid era players will get because to ignore the accomplishments of players with careers of the magnitude of Clemens and Bonds–and maybe even A-Rod, is effectively to deny history. I don’t feel that Brown provides the same compelling reason to ignore PEDs use. However, I also realize my opinion is going to become antiquated–if for no other reason that many favorite players who’s careers… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

I very much agree with you, Mike. I made the same calculation on Brown, though I understand why his backers feel differently. And I think you’re right on target with birtelcom’s design. It wasn’t perfect, but birtelcom (and then Doug) adjusted it to minimize the flaws, and the project not only yielded a good outcome, it was just great trading ideas so fluidly with such interesting fellow posters.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Cone was born in 1963. It was a fertile time for pitchers. Quality pitchers born within 5 years of Cone include:

A trio of all-timers (Clemens (1962), Johnson (’63), and Maddux (’66));

another quartet of solid second-tier CoG’ers (Glavine (’66), Mussina (’68), Schilling (’66), and Smoltz (’67));

another handful of pitchers not in the CoG with career values roughly similar to Cone’s (Brown (’65), Finley (’62), Saberhagen (’64));

a whole raft of quality pitchers (50+ WAR) who never sniffed the CoG (Appier, Gooden, Hershiser, Langston, Moyer, Rogers, Wells).

Hard for Cone to stand out amongst all that talent.

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Dr. Doom, why skepticism regarding Reuschel’s 1977 season? Do you mean that you question whether Rick was actually that good that year? Reuschel put up a very good ERA+ in front of a terrible defense in a hitters’ park. That’s a formula that many pitchers used in the ’70s to accumulate high-value seasons — Wilbur Wood, Fergie Jenkins as a Cub, Phil Niekro, Blyleven in Minnesota, Mark Fidrych his one great year. Reuschel’s 1977 numbers seem just as legit as the numbers of any of those guys. Or maybe you meant skepticism that he was actually a great player, because… Read more »

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Ignore that last sentence. JAWS WAR for pitchers already includes hitting WAR.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I did mean the latter – that, if you pull out that one outlying season, which makes up over a FIFTH of his top-7 WAR, he doesn’t really look like a great pitcher – certainly not a COG pitcher. Brown’s peak still looks very solidly like a peak, even without the top year. I was forced, over and over, to choose between Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel, since I had them nearly tied. I had to ask myself the question of which player I thought was the superior. I came up with Tiant, because I was MORE sure that he… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

One thing I never realized about the ’77 Cubs is that they started off 47-23 and were 8.5 games up.

They then completely collapsed, going 34-58 the rest of the way, finishing at 81-81 and 20 games out of first.

Anyone know what happened to them? I don’t see any obvious injuries. Were they simply playing above their heads?

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

David P:

Basically, the Cubs’ hitting fell apart. They scored 409 runs in the first half, 283 in the second. A BIG contributing factor to Reuschel’s WAR that year was his performance at Wrigley, where he confounded Park Factor big time.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Thanks NSB, though it actually looks like both their pitching and hitting collapsed.

I said they started 47-23 above but I should have said 47-22.

In those first 69 games they outscored opponents 4.84-3.88 runs per game.

In their next 93 games, they were outscored 3.85-5.07 runs per game.

But that still begs the question as to why? I’m not good at calculating odds but my guess is that the chance that a team starts the season 47-22 and ends it 81-81 is less than 1%.

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

It used to be said, before Wrigley got lights, that the Cubs would wear down in the heat of the summer from playing far more day games than anyone else. Whether this is something that actually happened or just something that people used to say, I don’t know.

The ’73 Cubs started the season 47-31, and finished 77-84, as 23-game swing from 16 over .500 to 7 below. That nearly matches the ’77 Cubs 25-game drop from 47-22 to 81-81. So collapses of that magnitude might not be all that rare, although again it would take some research to determine.

bstar
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

It looks like poor pitching was the main reason for the ’77 Cubbies’ second-half collapse, with the relievers taking most of the blame.

Cubs bullpen ERA, monthly splits

3.18…April
3.16…May
1.45…June
5.60…July
3.59…August
6.04…Sept/Oct

Also, Bruce Sutter, having a career year (6.5 WAR, 1.34 ERA) as the closer/fireman, missed parts of July and August due to injury.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I’m not good at calculating odds but my guess is that the chance that a team starts the season 47-22 and ends it 81-81 is less than 1%.

I think it depends on whether you allow the calculations to know that they are about the Cubs.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Similar to the ’73 and ’77 Cubs are the ’91 Reds who slipped 24 games from their high-water mark, starting 44-34 and finishing 74-88. Difference, of course, was those Reds were defending world champions.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Doug – Interestingly, the `90 Reds – the team that won the WS – also started off hot and then struggled.

At one point, they were 33-12 before going 58-59 the rest of the way.

Alternatively, they were 59-33 and then went 32-38.

Paul E
Paul E
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

David P.
re the ’77 Cubs, I believe Jerry Morales was hitting .330 or so at the AS break….he absolutely tanked in the second half. When the Cubs finally got competitive again in 1984, I remember a bunch of talk about how a “mild summer” was key to them possibly finishing strong. It did work out for them until the last three games of the NLCS 🙁

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Some statistical notes on the 1977 Chicago Cubs, contrasting the team’s play through June 28, their 69th game, when their record was 47-22, and after June 28, a period over which they won 34 and lost 59. Runs scored at home: 411 overall (5.1 per game, 46-35 record)—183 in 33 games through June 28 (5.5 per game, 25-8 record), 228 in 48 games after June 28 (4.75 per game, 21-27 record) Runs scored on the road: 281 overall (3.5 per game, 35-46 record)—151 in 36 games through June 28 (4.2 per game, 22-14 record), 130 in 45 games after June… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Replying to David Horwich’s March 1, 5:59 pm post: The ’73 Cubs started the season 47-31, and finished 77-84, a 23-game swing from 16 over .500 to 7 below. That nearly matches the ’77 Cubs 25-game drop from 47-22 to 81-81. So collapses of that magnitude might not be all that rare, although again it would take some research to determine. B-Ref makes it pretty easy to search this information for individual teams. Use the Streak Analyzer, Cubs, All Years, first 69 games from beginning of season. The results also show the team’s full-season record. Comparing records over the first… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

This is a response to David P.’s comment on 3-1 at 5:25 PM: My PI search showed that the 1977 Cubs were the only team to win 47+ of its first 69 games and not finish over .500.

David P
David P
8 years ago

Ha, good one EPM!

Richard C – Thanks for the research! Is there any way to find out what team had the second most wins over the first 69 games, without finishing over .500?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

The 1905 Indians were 43-26 after 69 games and finished the season in 5th place with a final record of 76-78.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
8 years ago

I only checked from 1901 and on.

David P
David P
8 years ago

Thanks Richard, appreciate the research!

T-Bone
T-Bone
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Dr. Doom. When has Reuschel ever looked a little thin? And I’m a Cub fan.

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

It’s interesting that you bring up Adam’s HOS. It is one of the things that made me such an avid Nettles supporter. I always liked Nettles as a player, but I thought, like many people, that his low BA was a big black mark against him. Adam’s HOS convinced me otherwise. What I think is interesting and disappointing to me is that I am pretty sure Nettles would have made it into the COG if we had just a few more spots–right around 125 would have done it, I think. Maybe if the Old Timers Committee had voted in a… Read more »

Joseph
Joseph
8 years ago

We should ask Adam if he wants to add the High Heat Circle of Greats to his consensus page:

http://www.hallofstats.com/consensus

bstar
8 years ago

I don’t really understand the point of comparing the Hall of Stats with the COG. The HOS is a full-sized Hall but the COG is more of an inner circle. To me they aren’t directly comparable.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I think Doug’s idea was to make them comparable by only comparing against the top 121 players in the HOS that were eligible for the CoG.

bstar
8 years ago

Oh, yes, I see that now. Thanks

Jeff B
Jeff B
8 years ago

No one can explain to me how Bobby Grich is better than Andre Dawson and Dave Winfield. I dont think Grich would be one of the top 200 players of all time, while Winfield is easily in the top 100, and Dawson at worst is just outside the the top 100.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeff B

Here’s how the three stack up in terms of WAR totals, peaks, and rates, with OPS+ added as a check on offensive contributions: WAR.……Pk5……Top5……WAR/G…WAR/Yr……OPS+…Career length 64.4………32.4……33.7……0.025……3.4 (19)……119………1.50……Dawson 70.9………35.0……35.0……0.035……4.7 (15)……125………1.15……Grich 63.8………26.9……28.6……0.021……3.0 (21)……130………1.70……Winfield Dawson and Winfield have an advantage in career length, but even that large advantage didn’t let them compile WAR comparable to Grich, because it’s a wipe-out on defense. Grich falls right between Dawson and Winfield in OPS+. (Because Grich’s OBP was so good and his power solid, especially for a second baseman, he’s really right in the league of the other two when it comes to straight OPS: Grich… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
8 years ago
Reply to  Jeff B

Jeff B: See the comment by David P above, but also consider this: the HOS ranks Grich 81 all-time, Dawson 135, Winfield 162. Why? Mainly because Grich, in a shorter career, had OPS+ of 125, oWAR of 62.1, WAR of 70.9. In longer careers, Dawson’s figures were 119, 54.6, and 64.5; Winfield’s were 130, 73.1, 63.8. Going by raw WAR Grich comes out far ahead. Winfield’s much discussed fielding drops him to third, slightly behind Dawson, in spite of his long-career accumulated oWAR. I think Grich is rated a little too high, too—a lot of his OPS+ comes from walks,… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
8 years ago

To take things on a different tangent…I voted in every round, so I cast 363 total votes over 121 ballots. My top dozen votees were: 42 Alomar 33 Tiant* 31 Sandberg 30 Nettles* 27 Campanella 22 E Martinez 22 Winfield* 18 Murray 10 Larkin 9 Harnett 9 Santo 8 Glavine Just over a quarter of my votes (93/363) went to players who didn’t make it in – in addition to the votes for Tiant, Nettles, and Winfield, I also voted for Goslin (4), Dwight Evans (2), Ashburn, and Ferrell (1 each). In the end, I voted for 62 players who… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I had 60 votes for Brown. I think I had 32 for Tiant, so we’re right in that same neighborhood. I had a TON for Ryne Sandberg, too – not as many as for Brown, but probably more than I did for Tiant. I’ll look tomorrow.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I was wrong on how much I voted for Tiant. here’s my information: I participated in 120 of the elections. Somehow, I forgot to cast my vote in the 1934, Part 1 election. I definitely was in on the discussion that round, but I guess I ASSUMED I had voted, but hadn’t. So any, 360 total votes for me, and over a sixth of ’em went to one guy. 60 – Kevin Brown 32 – Ryne Sandberg 24 – Luis Tiant 21 – Bobby Grich 14 – Ron Santo 10 – Alan Trammell, Larry Walker 8 – Curt Schilling, Wes… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Of the 22 players I didn’t vote for, 10 of them were catchers (Dickey, Piazza, Berra, Fisk; I was obviously not adjusting adequately for catchers, an oversight I’ve tried to do better on), relief pitchers (Rivera, Wilhelm, Smoltz – I don’t inherently have a problem with relievers, I just always thought there were more valuable/deserving players on the ballot at the time), and deadball-or-earlier players about whom I was statistically skeptical (Davis, Plank, Walsh). The election I failed to vote in cost me Hank Aaron, for whom I OBVIOUSLY would’ve voted – so that’s a silly one. That leaves 11… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I’m confused. If you have Sisler as #120, why would you see him as a “BAD choice” in a group of 121?

Paul E
Paul E
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

” “Lou Whitaker – I get it. I just don’t think “slightly above average for a long time” qualifies as COG-worthy.” ”

Agreed. I prefer the guys with high peaks. The higher the peak, the greater the talent. For example, I don’t think Al Rosen’s best year was a fluke. I believe he was that good – when healthy. But, Rosen particularly, some of these guys with the high peaks didn’t necessarily have enough peak seasons.

Hartvig
Hartvig
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

David P-

I think Dr. Doom is talking about how he would rank just the 121 players in the COG not including any of the outside alternatives

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Yes, David P. Hartvig is right. I would rank Sisler #120 of those 121… but you can’t seriously believe I’d put him ahead of Kevin Brown! 🙂

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Gotcha Doom, thanks for the clarification. A question though? Doesn’t your comment re: Whitaker apply more so to Killebrew? Same career length, same 7 year JAWs, but Whitaker has a lot more total WAR and total WAA. If you’re going to say that someone is a bad choice due to being “slightly above average for a long time”, seems like Killebrew is the guy you’re looking for.

aweb
aweb
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Whitaker was slightly above average at everything + 10 rbat a year,2 baserunning, 1 rdp, 5 rfield. That adds up, but I understand the search for greatness seems to be a little off. Killebrew was the opposite – throwing out those first 5seasons, Killebrew is more like +25 rbat, -1.5 rbase and rdp, -5 rfield. Throw in positional adjustment on top and Whitaker ends up on top.

Killebrew an alltime great hitter, Whitaker was an alltime great at not hurting his team in any area. Not exactly a boxscore stat…or something that can make a highlight reel.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

David P. – Probably. But I met Harmon Killebrew, and he was really awesome and absolutely as friendly as people say. So I’ll admit to totally having blinders about that one.

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Ah yes, the ‘ol “I met him so he must be great rationale”! 🙂 Kind of like me voting for Eddie Murray cause he was my favorite player growing up.

Aweb: I wonder what other COG’s that’s true for. Sandberg is one that I found. His career Rbat, Rfield, Rbaser and Rdp are almost exactly the same as Whitaker’s.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago

EPM suggested a review of the rationales leading to differences between the COG and HOS (top 121), and Doug spelled out a dozen of the pitchers earlier. This would be beneficial to our future decisions, so I put down some more thoughts: Rivera – With a HOS rating of 130 and 56 WAR, Mo leads all relievers, and ranks 2nd in JAWS (among RP) to Eckersley. Voters acknowledged his utter dominance as a closer. Once he becomes HOS-eligible he will join the top 121. Eckersley – Voters seemed unable to back him consistently because of his dual starter/closer role. He… Read more »

David P
David P
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Interesting stuff Dave Humbert! Looking at the catcher’s, I’m thinking that Adam didn’t give them enough of a bonus. The #1 catcher all time via HOS (Bench) only ranks 44th. Doesn’t seem correct not to have any catcher higher than 44th all time.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
8 years ago
Reply to  David P

I have brought up this very same thing with Adam. See my comments here:
http://www.hallofstats.com/articles/my-interview-on-the-mlb-network

I thought initially, when the HOS for “opened” that the catcher adjustment was, if anything, too big. I was very, very wrong, and the COG helped me to see that. It just makes sense to increase it, at least a little.

Doug
Doug
8 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Eck is a tough one to judge. Notwithstanding that he had over 2500 IP as a starter, he is primarily known as a top-flight closer. But, he really only excelled in that role for a relatively brief time, for six years from 1987 to 1992. Those seasons included pitching on a three-time pennant winner and 1989 world championship, which enhances his bona fides, but it’s still just six top flight seasons. As a starter, Eck was one of the all-time greats when he started out. His 28 WAR through age 24 (his first 5 seasons) is the 8th highest total… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago

Follow up post on COG vs HOS: here is the recap of the rest of the infielders differing between COG and top 121 of HOS before spring fever draws me away again…. Thome – Another just waiting to be HOS eligible (135 rating), voters liked his superb power numbers (over 600 HR) and apparently “clean” accomplishments in a steroid era (72.9 WAR). Easily makes the top 121 in the HOS soon. McGwire – “Big Mac” definitely was discounted for steroids by many voters, and his fragile health and rather low hit total (1626) didn’t help. When he was healthy his… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago

Here is a recap of the first basemen differing between COG and top 121 of HOS….. Thome – Another just waiting to be HOS eligible (135 rating), voters liked his superb power numbers (over 600 HR) and apparently “clean” accomplishments in a steroid era (72.9 WAR). Easily makes the top 121 in the HOS soon. McGwire – “Big Mac” definitely was discounted for steroids by many voters, and his fragile health and rather low hit total (1626) didn’t help. When he was healthy his power numbers were otherworldly, however. When Thome joins the HOS, he’ll push McGwire outside the top… Read more »

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
8 years ago

And now the rest of the infielders differing between COG and top 121 of HOS…. Wallace – Suffered gaining support by playing during a time of great shortstops (Wagner/Davis better and Dahlen roughly equal), birth year putting him on ballot late, and relative unfamiliarity to voters. Having 13 shortstops already in the COG and his playing ¼ of his career pre-1901 also hurt him with some voters. HOS rating 143, HOS ranking 72, WAR 76.2, JAWS 14th among SS, light on ink. 25 years, 2383 G, 8618 AB, 2309 H, 562 SO, 201 SB, .268 BA. Made his career with… Read more »

RJ
RJ
8 years ago

Can’t believe the CoG process has ended! I regret missing the last year or so of voting, but the time that I did spend following along and engaging with all the commentators was just excellent. A great exercise.