Circle of Greats 1883-84 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 107th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1883 and 1884. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of players born in 1883 and 1884, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of candidates born in 1883 and 1884 joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, September 20th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Friday, September 18th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1883-84 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new candidates born in 1883 and 1884 will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The fourteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1883 and 1884 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Shoeless Joe Jackson (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Home Run Baker (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1883 and 1884, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Sherry Magee
Hal Chase
Jake Daubert
Burt Shotton
Oscar Stanage
Mike Mowrey
Rube Oldring
Jimmy Archer
John Hummel
Bob Bescher
Al Bridwell
Bobby Byrne
Otto Knabe
Red Murray
Bill Carrigan
Eddie Grant
Bill Hinchman

Pitchers (born in 1883 and 1884, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jack Quinn
Chief Bender
Eddie Cicotte
Lefty Leifield
Art Fromme
Nap Rucker
Bob Groom
Ed Willett
Russ Ford

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mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Editary note! Ol’ Pete needs to be taken off the re-election campaign trail there…

Voting straight up for the three best candidates I see on this ballot, in order:

Paige, Hartnett, Nettles

I would love to vote for Dawson as well but no room. I’m not sure who I’d pick next between Wilhelm and Eckersley…

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#6: I found 2 guys with 95 OPS+, Whitey Alpermann in 1909 and Ossee Schrecongost in 1905. But Oldring had 7 BB and 47 SO in 1907, a ratio of 6.7, not 7.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

In that case I’ll take Gary Maddox in 1972 with OPS+ = 103.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Juan Samuel in 1984 with a 107 OPS+. His SO/BB ratio is exactly 6 which let him slip through the cracks when I set the PI to SO > than 6 x BB.

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question number 1–seems to be something wrong with that question. Depending on how you read it, I get either lots of players or only Sherry (using the play index at BBR).

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Barry Bonds? Twice?

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

I think that’s it!

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#7 Mowrey – Is it Scott Rolen (PHI, STL, TOR, CIN)?

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#12 Bridwell – one of them is Ozzie Smith, 1986-87. Not sure the other.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

It’s Luke Appling.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. Chief Bender – I’m assuming it’s Dwight Gooden – 218 innings in his age-19 rookie season.

10. Red Murray – the 1982 Cardinals and the 1985 Cardinals had three outfielders with 34+ SB… which is crazy that they finished 1 SB short TWICE. They may not be the right answer, by I’m giving myself credit for being right, even though Doug won’t. 😉

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

10. The 1976 A’s had Bill North (75 SB, 144 games in cf / 8 dh), Don Baylor (52 SB, 76 of / 69 1b / 23 dh), and Claudell Washington (37 SB, 126 of / 6 dh).

(There was a typo for 1983 in Dr Doom’s answer.)

Four of the Angels’ top 50 seasons for SB by an outfielder were in 1975 (MRivers 70, DCollins 24, MNettles 22, LStanton 18).

bstar
bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 Chief Bender question

It’s Gary Nolan, who logged 226.2 IP as a 19-year-old rookie for the ’67 Reds.

Cincy’s farm director that year? None other than Chief Bender!

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  bstar

As soon as I saw Dr. Doom’s answer in the “Recent Comments” feed I checked Doc’s totals & then Nolan’s.

Both pale in comparison to Bob Feller’s 277 2/3 as a 19 year old- but he was already a 3 year veteran by then.

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#13………1946 Athletics with Fowler, Knerr, and Marchildon (16 losses each)

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#8………Frankie Crosetti in 1938, 27 SB and 97 K’s

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#5………..Gaylord Perry with 82

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#9: Bill Madlock

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#15 is Frank Tanana—96 wins, 82 losses.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to #3: Horace Clarke, 1968 Yankees—six doubles, one triple, and two home runs among 133 hits (.512 OPS, 60 OPS+). Year of the Pitcher, I know, but . . . ecccccch.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Squaring the circle here . . . Tanana first faced the Yankees on June 12, 1974, losing 6-4. Clarke had been sold by the Yankees to the Padres on May 31, 1974. So the young fireballer (which he was, up through 1977, his age-23 season) never got a chance to face the ageing banjo hitter.

Tanana, strikeouts per 9 innings, 1973-77: 7.79
Tanana, strikeouts per 9 innings, 1978-93: 5.32

John Nacca
John Nacca
9 years ago
Reply to  Kahuna Tuna

Frank Tanana…….he threw 90 in the 70’s, and 70 in the 90’s.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Fewest XBH in a season with 502+ PA in the live ball era: Sandy Alomar with 8 in 1973.
Second fewest: Horace Clarke with 9 in 1968

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4: Max Bishop. There were lots of big guns on the 1930s A’s.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug: You may have missed this because it was out of order. Question #11: Miguel Cairo

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

#14–is it Mickey Lolich and Phil Niekro

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

Is Nap Rucker the best pitcher ever with a .500 record or worse? He’s 4th in total bWAR, behind one 19th century guy (Ted Breitenstein) and two guys with much worse peripherals, Jack Powell and Bobo Newsom. His 119 ERA+ is very impressive.

Bender is the only HoF pitcher among the newcomers, but I think you can argue he’s only the 4th best pitcher on that list.

oneblankspace
9 years ago

Career Pitching WAR leaders, B-R version, more Losses than Wins, 1876-present (W = L added in italics) 1. Jack Powell 56.0 (245-254) 1897-1912 2. Ted Breitenstein 52.1 (160-170) 1891-1901 3. Bobo Newsom 51.7 (211-222) 1929-53 Nap Rucker 47.9 (134-134) 1907-1916 4. Bob Friend 47.0 (197-230) 1951-66 5. Jim Whitney 46.6 (191-204) 1881-90 6. Murry Dickson 43.5 (172-181) 1939-59 7. Tom Candiotti 42.5 (151-164) 1983-99 8. Bill Dineen 41.1 (170-177) 1898-1909 9. Danny Darwin 40.5 (171-182) 1978-98 10. Jon Matlack 39.1 (125-126) 1971-83 Howard Ehmke, 38.9 (166-166) 1915-1930 11. Pink Hawley 38.8 (167-179) 1892-1901 12. Ned Garver 38.7 (129-157) 1948-61 13.… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago

Just to get a discussion going (not necessarily for this round) here are the ten position player COG inductees with the least bWAR George Sisler, 54.5 Mickey Cochrane 52.1 Bill Dickey 55.8 Hank Greenberg 57.5 Joe Gordon 57.1 Roy Campanella 34.2 Yogi Berra 59.3 Mike Piazza 59.2 Harmon Killebrew 60.3 Jackie Robinson 61.5 Now, compare them with these folk currently on ballot Nettles 68.0 Goslin, 66.1 Winfield 63.8 Baker 62.8 Dawson 64.4 Ashburn 63.6 Dick Allen 58.7 Hartnett 53.4 and add in Willie Randolph, not on ballot, 65.5 Are there great injustices here? Well, five of our low ten inductees… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

JAWS places Hartnett 11th among catchers, Nettles 12th among 3B (but JAWS ranks Edgar Martinez as a 3B), Baker 13th, Goslin 9th among LF, Ashburn 11th among CF, and Dawson 12th, Jackson 13th among RF, and Winfield 19th, Randoph 17th among 2B.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

It’s also true that of the first 10 that you listed 3 lost time to WW2 (Berra, Greenberg & Gordon- 4 if you count Robinson) & of course Robinson & Campanella lost time to segregation. Sisler, Cochrane & Campanella also lost time to injury/accident/mental health issues. Only Dickey, Piazza & Killebrew had no “what if” factor to consider. Among the holdover only Baker and if you really stretch it Allen have anything like that working in their favor. I do agree with Doug that somewhere between 2 & 6 guys currently on the holdover list will get in. And with… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I used career WAR because I wanted a rough filter to see if we really were leaving people behind in favor of others who were less worthy. I’ve always found it difficult to figure out how to value the career a player actually had, and the career they might have had if injury/war/segregation hadn’t happened. Joe Gordon, for example, put of 57.1 bWAR in 6537 plate appearances. Willie Randolph 65.5 WAR in 9461 PA. While it’s not completely fair to do this, you are talking about a difference of 8.4 more WAR for Willie in nearly 3000 PA. If I… Read more »

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson, Home Run Baker, Kevin Brown

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Hartnett, Jackson, Goslin

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

#11: Miguel Cairo

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Now that we’ve cleared away the no-doubters, I’d like to make the case for one of the holdovers who I think clearly belongs in the CoG: The case for Gabby Hartnett ====================== Gabby Hartnett was the best catcher in the National League in the first half of the 20th century. Of course, that in and of itself doesn’t make Hartnett CoG-worthy – we won’t be electing the best third baseman in the National League in the first half of the 20th century, whoever that might be – but it’s not a bad place to start. Here are the catchers we’ve… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich


1900-1949
NL
3B
WAR:

52.5 … Stan Hack
48.2 … Heinie Groh
41.1 … Bob Elliot (50.4 total)

36.6 … Art Devlin
36.2 … Pie Traynor
33.6 … Heinie Zimmerman
29.4 … Harry Steinfeldt (30.8)
28.3 … Freddie Lindstrom
27.0 … Red Smith

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Shoeless Joe, Allen, Eck

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

I’ve been on the fence about including Gabby Hartnett a few times in this process. As we get down near the end, I just can’t help but feel that we’ve all been a little unfair to catchers in our expectation of their stats. Additionally, a couple of quick plugs for the other two guys on my ballot: Now, you all may know me as more of a “peak” guy than a “career” guy. Thus, my other two candidates. Home Run Baker does not overwhelm you with the numbers. His counting numbers are depressed by playing before the lively ball. Yet,… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

WAA for nettles vs baker is basically a tie WAR favors nettles. I find it hard to believe we’re favorably comparing a guy who never had to face integrating pitching. If we want another third basemen, do you seriously believe Nettles wasn’t a superior player to Baker in pretty much every way? Historical significance is one thing I suppose you could say for baker but the defensive contributions of a third basemen in the deadball era were totally different.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

WAR in best season: Baker 9.3 Nettles 8.0 Best 2: Baker 17.2 Nettles 15.5 Best 3: Baker 24.5 Nettles 21.2 Best 4: Baker 30.9 Nettles 26.7 Best 5: Baker 36.7 Nettles 32.2 Best 6: Baker 41.9 Nettles 37.4 Best 7: Baker 46.8 Nettles 42.3 Best 8: Baker 51.4 Nettles 47.1 Best 9: Baker 55.4 Nettles 51.7 Best 10: Baker 59.0 Nettles 55.0 Best 11: Baker 61.4 Nettles 57.7 Best 12: Baker 62.4 Nettles 60.4 Best 13: Baker 62.7 Nettles 62.9 That’s only after Baker’s final season that Nettles overtakes him. And that gives Baker no credit for the times when… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

mosc: I did a little spot checking on Nettles and the subject of integrated pitching, and, as I sort knew anyway, pitching hasn’t exactly been the skill that the large majority of black players have excelled in over the years since 1947. In the late sixties to late seventies in the AL there were very few black pitchers—Vida Blue being the only one with a significant career—and some Hispanic black pitchers like Tiant, and some Hispanic pitchers who weren’t black—but I have to doubt that Nettles’ batting was held back very much by facing them, since he didn’t do it… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago

Thought experiment #1: Randomly select 20 (or more) black pitchers from Baker’s time and allow them to play in MLB, pitching in proportion to their talent level. Doing so would increase the talent level of pitchers that Baker faced. BUT, it would have 0 impact. Why? Because all hitters would have to face those black pitchers, therefore bringing down everyone’s stats (traditional or advanced). Thought experiment #2: Randomly select 20 (or more) black position players from Baker’s time and allow them to play in MLB, playing in proportion to their talent level. Similar to the pitching example, this would shift… Read more »

bstar
bstar
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

David, I question your conclusions regarding your #2 experiment. First, let’s put Baker at least in the 95th percentile. He is one of the best hitters in the game. Second, if we infuse 20 black hitters into the league, odds are that only 1 of those 20 are going to be above the 95th percentile. The rest are going to be lesser hitters than Baker. So, if there’s any change at all, it’s going to push the 20 worst replacement players out of the game, which would slightly raise the quality of the league. At least in my opinion, Baker’s… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Bstar> I appreciate your comment but I think you missed the point I was trying to make. The whole point was to illustrate that the impact on Baker (had baseball been integrated during his time) would come from the hitters, not from the pitchers.

I frankly have no idea the size of the impact….just wanted to think through where the impact would come from.

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

David P and bstar: Bear in mind that any black players “added” to the talent mix of Baker’s time would displace an equal number of white players. While I believe bstar is correct in saying that nearly all of the black players added could be expected to be lesser players than someone as good as Baker, all of the displaced white players would be from the low end of the talent distribution. As a result, the average talent level of the league would be elevated. So, yes, Baker would remain an elite player (maybe 94th or 93rd percentile instead of… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Even tho I disagree with mosc on Nettles over Baker I actually do agree with his argument altho I think it’s considerably more complicated that what he laid out. Even the format of what we are doing cuts off at 1900 because most everyone acknowledges that prior to that point it was in many ways a different game. Shorter distance from the mound to the place until 1893, batters used to “call” for where they wanted the pitcher to throw the ball, different number of balls for a walk, foul balls weren’t called for strikes and just one major league… Read more »

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Here is a shorthand way of looking at the difference in overall competition that uses statistics, the size of players. Baker’s 1914 A’s lost the WS to the Miracle Braves. The starting 8 for the Braves averaged 5’9 3/4″ and 165 lbs. Yes, the Braves numbers are dragged down probably in comparison to many teams of their era because they had two notoriously small players on their team (who just so happened to be their best players). But that is kind of the point, Johnny Evers weighed 125 pounds. There is zero chance that a 125 pound player could even… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

We haven’t had this argument for a while, so I’ll chime in with the corrective: If the1984 Padres lineup had been born in the 1880s and raised in the environment of the players on the 1914 A’s—living conditions, nourishment, training, equipment, life hazards—it’s doubtful that they would have thrived nearly so much physically. If the 1914 A’s had been born in the 1950s the opposite would be likely. You can’t make comparisons on such grounds. Would Nettles have reached the level of excellence he did given the handicaps he would have had to face being born in 1882? There’s no… Read more »

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I guess I wasn’t really clear, because your corrective doesn’t address the point I was trying to make which is: Some (but not all) of the excellence that many of the early 20th century stars had is due to their size in comparison to their fellow players of that era. In other words, the disparity in the size of at least some of the star players and the replacement level player is much greater than the size disparity (if it even exists) between today’s star player (or the 1970s star player) and the replacement level player of today (or the… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

@80; There have always been tall/ large players in MLB, but I think that the advantage they have is considerably less than in other sports. In basketball there is a basic minimum height to compete at all, especially for forwards/centers. Likewise in football, a certain minimum weight is required, especially for linemen. I suppose in MLB there’s a minimum height for pitchers and first baseman (it’s rare to see one under 6 feet tall), but even so, there’s a tremendous variation in height/ weight at almost all the positions. Height can be a distinct DIS-advantage for a hitter, in that… Read more »

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Brent, I don’t think you’re actually right about picking out Cobb and Wagner. Looking at the Tigers and Pirates when they faced each other in the 1909 Series, if the players had just walked out on the field, I don’t think either of those guys would have stood out in terms of size. Cobb was one of the bigger Detroit players, but although he had an inch over the other starters, there were players very near his height and significantly heavier (Crawford, Schmidt, Rossman, Moriarty). And Wagner – very big for a shortstop – played alongside several players taller and… Read more »

Darien
9 years ago

Jackson, Eckersley, and Wilhelm

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
9 years ago

Shoeless Joe, Satch, and Eck

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Pitching WAR after the age of 40: 26.0 … Jack Quinn 25.7 … Phil Neikro 23.7 … Denton Young 22.6 … Nolan Ryan 22.3 … Roger Clemens 20.9 … Randy Johnson 20.4 … Hoyt Wilhelm _____________________ Highest WAR, age 43: 5.0 … Quinn 3.6 … Ryan 3.5 … Clemens 3.1 … Neikro _____________________ Age 44: 5.2 … Ryan 3.6 … Quinn 3.2 … Johnson 2.7 … Neikro _____________________ Age 45: 4.6 … Neikro 3.4 … Satchel Paige 3.3 … Wilhelm 2.8 … Moyer 2.0 … Quinn _____________________ 46 or older: 3.0 … Paige 2.0 … Wilhelm 1.9 … Wilhelm 1.7… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Jackson, Baker, Hartnett

opal611
opal611
9 years ago

For the 1883 & 1884 election, I’m voting for:
-Andre Dawson
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Brown
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Jackson
-Tiant
-Baker
-Quinn
-Magee

Brent
Brent
9 years ago

Baker, Goslin and Brown

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Jake Daubert

Most triples, age 38 or older:

22 … Daubert
20 … Honus Wagner
17 … Honus Wagner
15 … Sam Rice

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Hartnett, Goslin, Bender

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Kevin Brown, Luis Tiant, Graig Nettles

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Through 12 ballots (MJ @54):

=============75%
6 – Shoeless Joe Jackson
=============50%
5 – Gabby Hartnett
4 – Home Run Baker, Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley
3 – Goose Goslin
=============25%
2 – Graig Nettles, Satchel Paige
=============10%
1 – Dick Allen, Chief Bender, Andre Dawson, Luis Taint, Hoyt Wilhelm, Dave Winfield
0 – Richie Ashburn

Anybody’s ballgame. We haven’t had an election remotely like this one in many months.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Only Shoeless, Hartnett, Goslin, and Baker have guaranteed eligibility.

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Home Run Baker, Richie Ashburn, Dick Allen

shard
shard
9 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson – Home Run Baker – Richie Ashburn

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Kevin Brown
Andre Dawson
Home Run Baker

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Baker, Hartnett, Nettles

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Hartnett, Dick Allen, Luis Tiant

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
9 years ago

Baker, Nettles, Winfield.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 is Wally Pipp, of apocryphal headache fame. He finished his career with the Reds after the Yankees replaced him with some kid named Gehrig. I think he turned out to be pretty good.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4: Wilbur Cooper, 1917-1922.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#7: Ken Raffensberger, 89 wins, 99 losses, 112 ERA+.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Raffensberger, by the way, is a member of that battered fraternity of pitchers who won one third or less of their decisions in a season when they qualified for the league ERA title and posted an ERA+ of 110 or better. Raffensberger in 1953 went 7-14 with a 3.93 ERA (110 ERA+). Two notes on pitchers from this hard-luck list: 1. The only pitcher who accomplished the feat twice, as best I can tell, was Chris Bosio for the 1988 Brewers and the 1994 Mariners. 2. Shelby Miller of the Braves stands poised to join the list in 2015 (5-14,… Read more »

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Rick Ferrell is the answer to #8

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#9 looks to be Enos Slaughter and Earl Averill. Slaughter missed his age 27-29 seasons to WW2, and Averill started his MLB career relatively late at Age 27 because he was a star in the PCL.

I didn’t realize Averill had so many seasons of 10+ triples. He had 8 with the Indians, which is the team record (Speaker and Elmer Flick are tied for 2nd with 6. No one else has over 4). League Park was 460 ft to dead center, so I imagine that accounted for a lot of the triples.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbit: Eddie Grant was the most prominent MLer to be killed in action during WW1. He was already retired from the game. There is a street in the Bronx named after him.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago

@105, Several writers proposed him as a serious HOF candidate in the hall’s early years, as an example of what the Baseball Hall Of Fame should represent (respected MLB player gives his life in service to his country, etc…), but saner heads prevailed concerning the 288th third baseman of all-time (as measured by JAWS). He did get votes in five separate elections. Quoted from B-R’s bullpen: “In the early stages of World War II, Judge Landis advocated Grant for the Hall of Fame to honor the courage and the sacrifice that Grant represented.” He got votes in 1938 and 1939,… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question #3: Bob Swift had 14 ML HRs and hit HRs in consecutive games for the Tigers on 5-20-48 and 5-21-48.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

5. John Hummel – It was Harry Lumley in 1906 and 1907, with 23 doubles and 9 homers each time.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I despaired of ever getting #6, but I think the answer is Greg Myers, who started 2 WS games at catcher, one for the Padres in 1998 and one for the Braves in 1999.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#10: Luis Salazar from 1982-1983

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Didn’t have to look up number 11. It’s Bob Grim in 1954

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

For question #1 I came up with Lindy McDaniel. He hit a WOHR off Billy Pierce on 6-6-63. On 5-4-57 he gave up a HR to Charlie Neal after homering in the top of the 7th. This one had me racking my brain until I found a relatively simple way of doing it. I hope I am right.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I have a SABR reference book which lists an additional 14 WOHR by P since 1901. Also the BR PI is missing a WOHR by Kirby Higbe on 8-27-48. BR is missing the play-by-play for that game but Retrosheet’s deduced play-by-play indicates that WOHR. It’s easy to deduce just by looking at the box score. Higbe hit the HR in his only PA and he was the last hitter of the game. He and Wes Ferrell are the only P with 2 WOHR.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Jackson, Goslin, Ashburn

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago

Mosc, bstar, nsb, david p, hartvig, brendan, and anyone else I missed. All of you are making good points. I think there’s no question that the average player today is superior physically to the player of 1920–that’s part from the influx of minorities and part from the overall increase in pure size due to environmental factors. Just a few demographic observations. Since 1920, rosters have doubled, US Population tripled. The percentage of those of black ancestry in the general population has remained fairly steady since the turn of the 20th century–in the 10-12% range. It’s ticked up (ticked up) very… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

For the time period 1901-2015 there have been 167 players who were 66″ in height or shorter. 99 of them began their careers before 1920, 138 before 1941 and 153 before 1958.

oneblankspace
9 years ago

I saw this quote from a 5’4″ player in a book of sports quotes (although I have forgotten the player’s name):

« — How does it feel to be the shortest player in the major leagues?
— A heck of a lot better than being the shortest player in the minor leagues. »

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

Speaking as someone who is 5’7″ and 140, I like this guy. Maybe it was Freddie Patek. Thanks, oneblank.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

According to Google, the quote was from Freddie Patek.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

To me it’s less about magically teleporting each guy from one era to the next and more about keeping some context. Fun fact, Baker’s RPOS is greater than Nettles even though he played in significantly fewer innings (even compensating for number of games if you like). Why is his RPOS/INN nearly double that of nettles at the same position? Bunts. The nineteen-teens third basemen played up and fielded bunts. This gives them a huge percentage of scoring plays, more so than Nettles era at third base. Nettles is better compared to a shortstop from that long gone era than a… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

And the overall impact of that “extra” Rpos? About 1-2 career WAR.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Jackson 41.0
Tiant 37.5
Baker 37.0
Allen 35.8
Nettles 35.7
Dawson 35.4
Eckersley 34.6
Ashburn 33.9
Magee 31.9
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Rucker 30.9
Hartnett 30.3
Cicotte 29.2
Quinn 29.0
Wilhelm 28.7
Bender 23.9
Paige 5.7

This is probably the strongest group of non-Hall of Famers since Bonds’s or Clemens’s birth year. A little disappointed to see no love for Nap Rucker yet, but it’s a high standard. Here goes:

Brown, Baker, Rucker

PaulE
PaulE
9 years ago

Allen, Magee, Winfield

oneblankspace
9 years ago

H.Wilhelm
(S.)J.Jackson
E.Cicotte

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

shoeless Joe Jackson, Home Run Baker and Hoyt Wilhelm

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

A number of newcomers on the ballot who might well have a bone to pick with the various HOF Veterans Committees over the years. There are certainly any number of less deserving players that have been honored. That said I don’t see any of them as being COG worthy. Bill James argued that in holding out for a year Frank Baker not only “lost” one of his prime seasons but that the time off my have cost him some of his “skills”- for lack of a better word- as well. It’s not like now where he could dedicate several hours… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Through 24 ballots (#109):

12 – Baker*
=============50% (12)
10 – Jackson*
8 – Hartnett*
6 – Brown
=============25% (6)
4 – Allen, Eckersley, Goslin*, Nettles
3 – Ashburn, Tiant, Wilhelm, Winfield
=============10% (3)
2 – Dawson, Paige
1 – Bender, Cicotte, Magee, Rucker

Asterisks denote players not on the bubble.

PP
PP
9 years ago

Jackson, Baker, Goslin

billh
billh
9 years ago

Jackson, Dawson, Winfield

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Ashburn Bender Baker

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago

I’m going to go with Goslin, Hartnett, and Paige.

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

I was wondering if there has ever been a true parttime-fulltime player. Or fulltime-parttime. Meaning, someone who plays every day, but in a part time role. The answer… Not really. Fewest Plate Appearances, minimum 150 games played: 394 … Jim Eisenreich 437 … Tommy McCraw (1966) 455 … (not Iron) Mike Tyson 462 … Shane Victorino 466 … Dal Maxvill 466 … Jeff Conine 467 … FP Santangelo 467 … Andruw Jones Eisenreich played 137 games in the outfield in 1993. Started 78 of them. _____________________________________ The equivalent for pre-1961 is 142 games: 447 … Roy McMillan 455 … Alex… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Most games played in a season as a sub:

116…..Mike Squires
115…..Jerry Martin
106…..Greg Gross
105…..Mike Jorgensen
105…..Matt Franco
104…..Gene Stephens
104…..Greg Gross
102…..Jeremy Reed
101…..Quinton McCracken
101…..Tom Hutton
100…..Willie Kirkland
100…..John Vander Wal

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

The record for most games played with 0 PAs is 92, and it is held by 2 players. Most recently, Pedro Feliciano played in 92 games for the 2010 Mets. But he was a pitcher. And a LOOGY at that, appearing in 92 games and pitching 62.2 innings. Herb Washington played in 92 games for the World Champion 1974 A’s. The A’s would win 90 games, second most in the AL to the Orioles’ 91 wins, and win the World Series while carrying a pinch-runner on their team the entire season. To me that always seems like something that should… Read more »

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

But of course in 1974, teams only carried 10 pitchers, not 13 (or 14!!!), so that left 6 (in the AL) or 7 players on the bench. That is a lot more than we have today. With more players on the bench, you could be more specialized. Nowadays, with 3 guys on your bench, all of them have to a bunch of things OK, in 1974, you could carry that 40 year old Rusty Staub or Manny Mota just to pinch hit or, like the A’s, just to pinch run. One of the A’s Championship years, they spent much of… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

In 1965 Ross Moschitto appeared in 98 games (according to his game log) for the Yankees and never started. He accumulated 28 PA. He was basically a late inning replacement for Mickey Mantle. His only other year in the ML was in 1967, also for the Yankees, with 14 games played and no starts and 11 PA. His career consisted of 112 games with no starts.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

According to the PI, there are 8 non-pitchers who satisfy the criteria of at least 100 games played with games played > plate appearances. Two of them have been mentioned already (Moschitto and Washington). Two of the others were also Charlie Finley Specials; IOW, dedicated pinch runners for the 1970’s Athletics. Those two are Matt Alexander and Allan Lewis. One of them, Jack Reed, was basically an earlier version of Moschitto. He was a pinch-runner and defensive replacement for Mantle (and sometimes Maris, it looks like) for the Yankees from 1961 to 1963. One of them is Ron Shepherd, a… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

@129 Doug: I did my own PI analysis to see if Moschitto had the most games started as a sub with no starts. I ran the Split Finder for player batting, combined seasons, sub, not active, PA equal to or greater than 0, sorted by games and checked % of total in splits. The results showed 206 players with at least 112 games, which was Moschitto’s total. I truncated the list to those 206 names and saved the report. I then ran the Season Finder for pitchers, clicked on the saved report, combined seasons and sorted by name. There were… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

@141

I should clarify that there were 206 players with 112+ games and 100% games as a sub.

oneblankspace
9 years ago

In 1983, Mike Squires of the White Sox led AL first basemen with a .996 fielding percentage in 122 games — but only 27 starts, and 450 1-3 innings played. In 1982, he started 41 of his 109 games at first (496 2-3 IPly). His offensive totals those years were 180 PA in 143 G in ’83 and 213 PA in 116 GP in ’82. Squires would go in at first base and Tom Paciorek would move to the outfield. Paciorek finished 42 of the 102 games he started at first base in ’82, and 23 of 66 in ’83.… Read more »

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

Harnett, Baker, Nettles

bstar
bstar
9 years ago

Baker, Dawson, Allen

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

Through 30 (bstar @125); * marks those with extra rounds of eligibility: ==========75% (23) 16 – Home Run Baker* ==========50% (15) 12 – Shoeless Joe Jackson* 10 – Gabby Hartnett* ==========25% (8) 6 – Kevin Brown, Goose Goslin* 5 – Dick Allen, Graig Nettles 4 – Richie Ashburn, Andre Dawson, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Winfield ==========TOP NINE 3 – Satchel Paige, Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm ==========10% (3) 2 – Chief Bender 1 – Eddie Cicotte, Sherry Magee, Nap Rucker The entire holdover list is safe, for now. Baker is beginning to separate himself from the pack, but it would only take… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Paige, Dawson, and Kevin Brown

If anyone ever does a study of voting behavior using our data they will notice that there is no consistency of my voting at this point.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago

Back to saving a couple players on the bubble:

– Gabby Hartnett
– Sherry Magee
– Luis Tiant

Mike L
Mike L
9 years ago

David H moved me more firmly into the Hartnett column, and I’ll credit Dr. Doom for a viable argument for Baker.

Baker, Hartnett, and to help keep him around until I look more closely at pitchers, Tiant.

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Vote:

Dennis Eckersley
Joe Jackson
Hoyt Wilhelm

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

D. Allen, Wilhelm, Paige