Circle of Greats 1881-82 Balloting

156 Replies

This post is for voting and discussion in the 108th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1881 and 1882. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of players born in 1881 and 1882, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of candidates born in 1881 and 1882 joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, September 29th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, September 27th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1881-82 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new candidates born in 1881 and 1882 will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1881 and 1882 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Shoeless Joe Jackson (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Andre Dawson (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Satchel Paige (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1881 and 1882, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Johnny Evers
Terry Turner
Dode Paskert
Frank Schulte
Solly Hofman
Hans Lobert
Larry McLean
Gavvy Cravath
Roy Hartzell
Ira Thomas
Johnny Bates

Pitchers (born in 1881 and 1882, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Babe Adams
Red Ames
Jack Coombs
Ed Walsh
Ed Reulbach
Howie Camnitz
George Suggs
Orval Overall

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Doug

9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. Answers in red. 1. Babe Adams is one of 13 pitchers since 1901 with 120 ERA+ in 1000 IP aged 36+. Who are the only two in that group to post a higher ERA+ through age 35 than after? Pete Alexander, Roger Clemens 2. Red Ames won 183 career games, second only to Tom Zachary’s 186 total among pitchers since 1901 with exactly one season with more than 15 wins. Who is the number 3 on that list, with the most such expansion era wins? Livan Hernandez 3. Frank Schulte led his league in HR, RBI and… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

1. Babe Adams – One of them is Roger Clemens – 151 ERA+ through age 35, 129 after.

12. Ed Walsh – I believe it was Wilbur Wood in 1973.

19. Orval Overall – Sam Jones in 1956, when he led the NL in Ks but failed to post even an average ERA for his league and ballpark – 98 ERA+.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

All correct.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I found the other answer to 1. Babe Adams – It’s Pete Alexander, with a 140 ERA+ before, and a 127 ERA+ after.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

18. Mickey Cochrane

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

10. Turner — Juan Uribe

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

9. Evers — Tony Cuccinello 1936-37

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#5: Hal Newhouser from 1944-1946

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

That should be #4.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

For number 2, I’m getting Liván Hernández with 178 wins (although he had two seasons with Wins equal to 15, he had only one great than 15).

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Number 4: Dizzy Dean, 1934-1936 (30, 28, and 24).

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Richard has it with Hal Newhouser, ten years after Dizzy.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

One of the answers to #6 is Sandy Koufax, four straight season from 1963 to 1966.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

And the other is Lefty Grove from 1928 to 1931.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

And so did Mordecai Brown 1906-1909.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Oops. I missed Brown. Thanks.

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

11. 1949 World Series. Duke Snider (.143) and Joe DiMaggio (.111).

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

8. George Suggs question: Bucky Walters, 1939-42.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#3 – Heinie Zimmerman in 1912.
#16 – Gene Robertson.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to brp

I think the answer to #16 is Jimmy Austin. Gene Robertson never played 100 games in a season with the Yankees.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to brp

Austin and Zimmerman are correct.

But, I missed Zimmerman (for some reason, his RBI total is not bolded in the P-I search result), so there’s another answer for #3, much more recent.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Other answer for #3: Cecil Fielder

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#13 is Bob Aspromonte of the Astros in 1967. 3 guys did it in 1981 (Bell, Harrah and Evans), but that wasn’t a full length season.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#14 was the 1929 and 1930 Giants, featuring Shanty Hogan and Bob O’Farrell as the catchers. Hogan hit .300 and .339 as the starter and O’Farrell hit .306 and .301 as the backup.

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#17, Camnitz/Summers: Phil Niekro, 1967 Braves, 64 R/43 ER, 1.488.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#5: Jimmie Hall, 0.1 WAR after age 27.
Also for #13 I found Graig Nettles with 120 OPS+ in 1985, same as Aspromonte.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I’m guessing you and Brent (@66) are thinking 1972 wasn’t a full length season, which I guess is technically correct. But, at 156 games, I think it was close enough, so my answer is Darrell Evans’ 121 OPS+ with Atlanta in 1972.

Evans did it with his 17% walk rate for a .419 OBP, as he hit only .254 in hitter-friendly Fulton County Stadium.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Hall’s 33 home runs in 1963 was the AL record for a debut season until Jose Abreu passed him last year.

Hall is one of only fourteen players since 1901 to record 4 WAR in each of the first 3 seasons of a career. The next lowest WAR starting in season 4 is Austin Jackson’s 6.0 WAR and counting. Next lowest among retired players is Johnny Pesky’s 15.5.

Seems that Hall couldn’t hit lefties (possibly related to a bad beaning by Bo Belinsky in his rookie season) and didn’t adjust well to not being an everyday player.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

My guess on #15 is Coco Crisp.
Active — check
less than 1500 games played — (1458)check
One season with 150 hits or more — (2005) check
28.7 WAR — (seems to be highest) check

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

It is Coco.

Assuming Crisp passes 1500 games next year, Giancarlo Stanton (24.9) is next on the list.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Crisp’s WAR is still tops if you expand it to all positions, although Brian McCann could (and should) pass Coco as he’s only 0.1 behind at 28.2 WAR and has almost another full season of games left before he crosses the 1500-G barrier.

John Nacca

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#7 (the last one not answered)……..is it Ed Kirkpatrick? He broke in with the 1962 Angels as a 17 year old, and was on the 1969 Royals. He spent most of his career (as far as games played) in the OF.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug,

I doubt this is the correct answer to question #7, but the closest I’ve found so far to meeting the criteria is Ron Fairly. He played for both the 1969 Expos and 1977 Blue Jays in their first seasons. In his final ten seasons, six were 250 PA, 120 OPS+ and fewer than 5 WAR. Near misses with Montreal in 1971 (119 OPS+) and 1974 (115 OPS+) prevented a streak of seven such seasons.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#7 – Gene Woodling, 1961 Senators and 1962 Mets.

OPS+ over 120 from 1957-1961, missed it at 116 in 1962, highest WAR in those years was 4.5 in 1957.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to brp

Woodling is the answer.

Fairly played mostly first base at the end of his career, and Kirkpatrick played a mix of 1B, OF and C and failed to reach 250 PA in his last three seasons (also the Angels’ inaugural season was in 1961, not 1962).

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

My ballot:

Kevin Brown
Gabby Hartnett
Luis Taint

To recap: Kevin Brown, for FIVE YEARS was better than Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Greg Maddux, and everyone this side of Pedro. Gabby Hartnett is (other than Ivan Rodriguez) the last catcher with a shot to get in, and definitely has the credentials. (Luis Tiant is just a guy whom I like, so I’m not going to push as hard on that one). To me, Brown should’ve gotten in long ago, and Gabby Hartnett is overdue, as well. Let’s see one of these two get into the COG!!

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

…At the heart of the steroid era with middling success outside of it and only marginal career stats WITH it. No thanks.

Mike L

9 years ago

To continue what I started last week, I looked at COG pitchers. We have enshrined 28 of them so far, 18 with bWAR over 80, which I think have to be considered no-doubters. Here are the remaining 10 Glavine, 74 (JAWS 30th) Palmer 67.9 (JAWS 37th) Hubbell 67.8 (JAWS 44th) Smoltz 66.5 (JAWS 58th) Feller 65.2 (JAWS 40th) Vance 62.5 (JAWS 56) Marichal 61.9 (JAWS 43rd) Rivera 56.5 (JAWS, 2nd RP) Ford 53.9 (JAWS 96th) Koufax 53.2 (JAWS 86th) Here are the holdovers: Brown 68 (JAWS 46th) Tiant 66.1 (JAWS 51st) Eckersley 62.5 (JAWS 1st among RP) Wilhelm 47.3 (JAWS… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

For everyone’s edification, the same group via Fangraphs:

Glavine – 66.9
Palmer – 56.6
Hubbell – 56.5
Smoltz – 79.6
Feller – 62.6
Vance – 61.6
Marichal – 61.1
Rivera – 39.7
Ford – 54.9
Koufax – 54.5

Holdovers:
Brown – 76.6
Tiant – 54.8
Eckersley – 61.8
Wilhelm – 27.3
Paige – (not relevant)

Those gone:
Ruffing – 56.1 (+ 13.6 batting)
Reuschel – 68.2

(For my own biased purposes, I’ll note that Kevin Brown ranks higher than all these players in fWAR other than Smoltz, and even that one is REALLY close.)

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Note that the lists @4 and @6 are for pitching WAR only. If we add in batting WAR, the list is as follows (bWAR/fWAR): Glavine – 81.4/73.2 Palmer – 69.4/57.2 Hubbell – 67.5/54.9 Smoltz – 69.5/82.9 Feller – 63.6/61.7 Vance – 59.9/59.1 Marichal – 63.1/61.7 Rivera – 57.1/39.7 Ford – 57.3/58.0 Koufax – 49.0/50.8 Holdovers: Brown – 68.3/76.1 Tiant – 66.7/55.1 Eckersley – 63.0/61.8 Wilhelm – 47.3/24.5 Others: Ruffing – 70.4/69.7 Reuschel – 70.0/69.4 Ferrell – 61.6/50.8 I also note in passing that Eckersley’s JAWS score (and all the JAWS scores for relief pitchers) seems to include his time as… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

To me the difference maker there is peak. You have several of the lower WAR guys who are borderline who got in because they were peak dominant players. It’s why I support Ferrell too above, say, Tiant or Ruffing.

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Comparing the lesser COG electees (pitchers) As Mike L. mentioned, the bottom 10 pitchers with additional stats: Glavine 74, JAWS 30th (305/203 W/L, 3.54 ERA, 4413 IP, 4298 H, 2607 SO, 1500 BB, 25 SH, 0 SV, 118 ERA+) Palmer 67.9, JAWS 37th (268/152 W/L, 2.86 ERA, 3948 IP, 3349 H, 2212 SO, 1311 BB, 53 SH, 4 SV, 125 ERA+) Hubbell 67.8, JAWS 44th(253/154 W/L, 2.98 ERA, 3590 IP, 3461 H, 1677 SO, 725 BB, 36 SH, 33 SV, 130 ERA+) Smoltz 66.5, JAWS 58th (213/155 W/L, 3.33 ERA, 3473 IP, 3074 H, 3084 SO, 1010 BB, 16 SH,… Read more »

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Speaking of pitchers, here is who we have left coming up with WAR numbers: 1880: Mathewson (95.3), Joss (43.7), George Mullin (34.3 + 13.3!) 1879: Noodles Hahn (44.6), Doc White (42.6 + 5.9) 1878, 1877: zip 1876: Willis (67.1), Waddell (61), M. Brown (55.1) 1875: Plank (86.5) 1874: Jake Powell (56), Chesbro (41.2), Jesse Tannehill (41.1 + 7.6) 1873: zip 1872: Al Orth (44.1 + 8.6) 1871: McGinnity (60.4) 1870: zip Pre-1870: C. Young (170.3) 1971: Pedro (86) 16 of any note (cutoff at 40 WAR). Mathewson should sail in, maybe a few votes for Joss/Hahn for high peaks or… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

As usual I think your assessment is spot on. I don’t remember the exact number of position players to pitchers elected by the BBWAA to the HOF but I do know it was very close to an 8 to 3 ratio and 32 (or 33 or 34 or…) would have us right in the same ball park. Given the dubious worthiness of a number of their choices I’m not certain how important that is but with 8 positions on the field plus the fact that in most rotations historically the top 3 guys tend to rack up 20% or more… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Dave H – One small correction. It’s Jack Powell. Jake Powell was an outfielder in the 30s and 40s.

As for how Powell hung on so long with a losing record, much of the losing came at the end of his career, much of that with the St. Louis Browns.

From age 22-29, Powell went 157-134, a .540 winning percentage. From age 30-37, he went 88-120, a .423 winning percentage. And those last three seasons were with Browns teams that lost over 100 games, no easy feat in the days of the 154 game schedule.

JEV

9 years ago

Hartnett, Jackson, Walsh

Hartvig

9 years ago

To me, nothing says that Ed Walsh is a product of his time more than his Baseball-Reference similarity scores. Every pitcher on that list was born within a 5 year span save 2: Sam Leever, who was born about a decade prior but who’s major league career got off to a late start and Lon Warneke, who is the least similar of the 10 players listed. The WAR totals seem impressive but they happened in what was very much a pitchers era and are bolstered by his being one of the last remnants of the 400+ innings pitched era. And… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I see that I forgot to mention that it’s also highly unlikely that anyone who is considered to be similar to Walsh with the possible exceptions of Three-Finger Brown & Rube Waddell is going to see a lot of COG support. We have already passed on 3 of them, 2 more are on the current ballot and the rest will be along shortly.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Seems odd that a guy with 60+ WAR who is the career leader in ERA should be considered marginal. But you’re definitely on to something. I’m looking at his numbers with awe and fascination, but also with a feeling of does-not-compute.

Here’s a comparison of eras. For Walsh’s 6 year peak:

151-99
2248 IP
55.3 WAR

Kevin Appier’s 16 year career:

169-137
2595 IP
55.1 WAR

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I think we might want to be a bit more generous to Walsh and others of his time. Sure, they posted gaudy seasonal WAR totals because of ridiculously high workloads. But, as Voomo notes, those totals over a very short period correlate well with the careers of some very good pitchers.

Seems it might be more appropriate to cut them some slack for the misfortune of having their careers shortened by overuse, rather than penalize them for having too short a career.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

That’s a reasonable point and if Walsh had truly stood out during his peak I might agree but you also have Cy Young, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson & Pete Alexander overlapping at least a portion of those peak seasons. On the other end of the scale the entire decade of the 30’s is currently represented by Lefty Grove, a by then 40+ year old Dazzy Vance and a teenage Bob Feller. (At least to my recollection. I’m doing this without looking at the current COG roster) I know that talent at a position isn’t necessarily evenly distributed over time but… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

@44;

Carl Hubbell isn’t in our COG? Sorry, I just lost track of our inductees.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

He is.

And that’s exactly why I qualified my statement

I need to go find the most current list of inductees someplace.

It would be interesting to look at the COG graphed out a few different ways- by active players per year, by players total WAR per year, by active position per year, etc.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

One point I will concede in Walsh’s favor is that while he was elected by the Old Timers Committee instead of the BBWAA that has as much to do with the ridiculously poorly thought out voting process that the BBWAA was laboring under at the time as anything. He actually did receive strong support and would almost certainly be elected by them eventually.

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug and Hartvig, maybe we can sort pitchers in another way, by IP/WAR. That would correct a bit for the insane 350-400IP seasons by putting them in a different context. Walsh managed 1 WAR every 46.9 IP. Looking at our other “leaners”, Tiant was 52.7, Reuschel was 52, Kevin Brown 47.5. Those three pitched longer and had more IP (Walsh 2964, Tiant 3486, Reuschel 3548, Brown 3256) but they are better comps than someone like his contemporary Ed Plank, who was at 51.9–but over nearly 5000 IP.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Mike, this works but I think to be fair you have to cherry pick the peak chuck of innings that matches Walsh’s total. In other words you can’t look at a career rate for other pitchers you have to find their best 2964.1 innings or so and look at their ip/war over just that period. I think if you do Walsh won’t look impressive (and had a shorter career).

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

As much as anything I’m a little suspicious of the concentration of talent in this era. You have 3 guys you could make an argument for being the greatest player ever (at least outside of Ruth) in Cobb, Johnson & Wagner. You also have Young, Alexander & Mathewson pitching who would be in a lot of peoples top 10 pitchers. You have Speaker in center who would be in most peoples top 5 CF’s. Some consider Collins to be the greatest 2nd baseman ever & Lajoie is not far behind. I can’t think of another era when there was that… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Hartvig – A few points re: your various posts on Walsh+. During his 7 year peak, Walsh accumulated 60.0 WAR, the most in the majors. The only pitcher even somewhat close to him was Mathewson at 52.5. Mathewson was the same age as Walsh so he makes for a very good comp. Sure, part of the reason that Walsh had more WAR than Mathewson is that he pitched more innings. But his WAR per inning was also the same as Mathewson. Makes you wonder what type of career he could have had if we hadn’t been overworked? As for there… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to David P

That’s a very fair assessment of Walsh. Another way of thinking of it might be that while he may or may not have been the best pitcher in baseball during his prime he almost certainly was the “most valuable”. It’s telling that in what might actually be his best season he led the league in few counting stats- most notably loses. Your last paragraph really gets to the gist of the argument I’ve been trying to make. It’s not that Cobb or Wagner or Mathewson weren’t great players or couldn’t have played in todays game and certainly not that they… Read more »

shard

9 years ago

Richie Ashburn – Shoeless Joe Jackson – Ed Walsh

mosc

9 years ago

I would really like to see more discussion of Jackson compared to Dawson. Looking at the Jackson we have records for (and not some devolvement into using our judgement above a commissioner from a century ago), Dawson at his peak was a defensive force in center field and a prolific base stealer in addition to a remarkably consistent bat. Jackson had some speed but was basically a slugging outfielder who never had to make the transition out of the deadball era. WAA over their best 4 years was 20.8 for Dawson vs 21.4 for Jackson. 7 years is another popular… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Mosc: Your calculation for Jackson’s 7 year WAA peak is off. It’s 30.6 (1911-1917). Also, just to be clear, it appears that your numbers are for 4 and 7 consecutive years as opposed to 4 or 7 best years.

Chris C

9 years ago

Eck, Allen, Jackson

Paul E

9 years ago

Allen, Walsh, Winfield

Andy

9 years ago

Shoeless Joe
Dick Allen
Big Ed

9 years ago

Allen, Ashburn, Tiant

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Gavvy Cravath career splits (1914-1920)…

HRs

72 … Home
15 … Road

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Most HR in a season with all HR at home: Cravath 19 in 1914

Andy

9 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson, Ed Walsh, Kevin Brown

no statistician but

9 years ago

This isn’t a quiz but a question with multiple parts: Babe Adams pitched for the Pirates in the 1909 Series—famously. He also pitched for the Pirates in their next Series appearance 16 years later. Yogi Berra also appeared in the WS for the same team 16 years apart. Both spent the intervening big league years with the same team. Has anyone, pitcher or position player, appeared for the same team in the WS over a greater a span of years; has such a hypothetical player spent all the intervening years with that same team; did the team appear in the… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

I did some searching.The best I could up with are Joe DiMaggio and Pee Wee Reese with 15 years.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Jim Palmer pitched in both the 1966 and 1983 World Series (and four others in between) for the Orioles – a span of 17 seasons.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Willie Mays played in the ’51 and ’71 World Series with the Giants, with two others in-between. He later played in the ’73 Series with the Mets, though based on how NSB phrased his question that doesn’t seem to disqualify him.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to David P

David P:

The Giants lost the playoff to Pittsburgh in 1971. The 22 year span between ’51 and ’73 may be the greatest for Series appearances, though. Another open question.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Ah yes, that’s what I get for doing things at 5:30 in the morning!!!

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

My analysis shows that the 22 year span for Mays is the the most. Second is Roger Clemens with 19 and third is Herb Pennock with 18.

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Eddie Collins played for WS winning teams 20 years apart (the 1910 and 1930 A’s), but he didn’t appear in the 1930 WS. Or the 1929 WS, for that matter.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Not with the same team… but Jim Kaat appeared in the 1965 Series with Minnesota. His next Series was with the 1982 Cardinals. For some time, that was the record for most years between consecutive World Series appearances.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Babe Adams at 16 years (1909 and 1925) may have the longest span between consecutive WS appearances for the WS champions.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Jackson, Hartnett, Goslin

brp

9 years ago

Vote:
Ed Walsh
Richie Ashburn
Hoyt Wilhelm

Brent

9 years ago

Goslin, Brown and Hartnett

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Shelby Miller is now 5-16, with 3.9 WAR.

Highest WAR, winning percentage under .250:

4.0 … Bryan Harvey (reliever)
3.9 … Shelby Miller* (in progress)
3.9 … Eddie Smith
3.9 … Hoyt Wilhelm
3.7 … Dave Campbell
_______________________

Among pitcher who Started at least 80% of games:

3.9 … Miller
3.2 … Fred Glade (1905)
2.4 … John Buzhardt
2.3 … Scott Perry
2.2 … Ross Baumgarten
2.1 … Jack Fisher
2.0 … Ned Garvin

Steven

9 years ago

Hartnett. Goslin. Wilhelm.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

RIP, COG-member Yogi Berra.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

With Yogi’s passing I was wondering who lived the longest after being elected to the HOF. I’m pretty sure that Bobby Doerr is the oldest living HOFer (he’s 97), but he was elected to the HOF in 1986 so he has “only” been a HOF member for about 29 years. Berra was elected in 1972, so he was a HOF member for 43 years before passing away. Bob Feller was elected in 1962, and passed away in 2010, so he was a HOF member for 48 years. That seems like a tough mark to beat, but perhaps someone else lived… Read more »

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Here are the leaders. Elected Died Years Bob Feller 1962 2010 48 Charlie Gehringer 1949 1993 44 Joe DiMaggio 1955 1999 44 Stan Musial 1969 2013 44 Sandy Koufax 1972 43 Yogi Berra 1972 2015 43 Monte Irvin 1973 42 Carl Hubbell 1947 1988 41 Whitey Ford 1974 41 Bill Dickey 1954 1993 39 Ralph Kiner 1975 2014 39 Ernie Banks 1977 2015 38 Ted Williams 1966 2002 36 Willie Mays 1979 36 Bill Terry 1954 1989 35 Al Kaline 1980 35 Doerr’s 29 years and counting is the longest for players elected by the Veterans Committee, one more than… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

If we had like buttons I would set aside 15 minutes of my day just to sit here and click it for this comment. I have no idea why I find stuff like this so fascinating but there you go.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

As we have come to expect, Joe Posnanski captures Yogi perfectly:

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/remembering-yogi-berra-yankees/

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

“Safe.”

“Out.”

I couldn’t love that more if I tried.

JasonZ

9 years ago

RIP Lawrence Peter Berra-the real Mr. October. I love when we get to the old-timers looking at the list and it brings back good memories and there is one name on this list that really sticks out… The last dimension is time. Within the ballpark, time moves differently, marked by no clock except the events of the game. This is the unique, unchangeable feature of baseball, and perhaps explains why this sport, for all the enormous changes it has undergone in the past decade or two, remains somehow rustic, unviolent, and introspective. Baseball’s time is seamless and invisible, a bubble… Read more »

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

It ain’t over til it’s over! And, now it is.

RIP Yogi.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

As far as the time aspect of the game, when the shadows affect the outfielders in the afternoon games in the World Series…
It gets late early out there.

When Yogi played Twenty Questions on road trips, etc., he would ask:

Is he living?
Is he living now?

Sadly, the answer to the second question is No.

JasonZ

9 years ago

Lawrence Peter let the Yankees in RBI every year from 1949 to 1956, RBIs may be a little old-fashioned, but on Yankee teams that were peopled with either Joe DiMaggio or Mickey Mantle during all those seasons, just amazing. Lawrence Peter Berra played, coached or managed in 21 World Series. He is Mr. October. Casey Stengel knew that Yogi Berra was the most valuable player on those Yankee teams. “They say he’s funny. Well, he has a lovely wife and family, a beautiful home, money in the bank, and he plays golf with millionaires. What’s funny about that?” – Casey… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Another of his amazing “old fashioned” data points was his run of 7 consecutive seasons in the top 4 in the MVP voting (50 to 56). Pretty impressive. Without checking the usual suspects I can’t imagine more than 10 players have done that.

e pluribus munu

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

From 1958 to 1961, I went often to Yankee Stadium to root passionately against the Yankees, since I could no longer go to Ebbets Field and root passionately for Brooklyn. I hated the Yankees. In my kid’s world, the greatest forces of evil were Nikita Khrushchev and the Yankees – that is, apart from the Devil himself: Walter O’Malley. The guy I was most afraid of wasn’t Mantle or Bauer or Maris: it was Berra. He was diabolical, and in just the way Hector Lopez says. I remember with particular clarity a tie game where Howard had been playing, rather… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

In 1950 Berra had 28 HR and 12 SO, a differential of 16. That has been bettered by only 3 players, Tommy Holmes with 19 in 1945, Lou Gehrig with 18 in 1934 and Joe DiMaggio with 17 in 1941.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Slight correction: Berra led the Yankees in RBI from 1949-1955. 1956 was Mantle’s triple crown year.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

RE: Berra leading the Yankees in RBIs every year from 49-55 with DiMaggio and/or Mantle on the team.

Obviously a large part of that is because Berra was in his prime whereas Dimaggio was past his and Mantle was just starting out.

Anyway, 1950 was an interesting year. DiMaggio led Berra by 5 RBIs with 3 games to go. Berra got 7 RBIs in those final three games to 0 for DiMaggio, beating him 124 to 122. (I’m ignoring game 155 since DiMaggio didn’t play and Berra only had 1 PA).

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Berra was also 4th on the Yankees in PAs in 1949, 2nd in 1950-1951, 5th in 1952 (but only 30 behind the number two man), 3rd in 1953, 1st in 1954 (only 2 ahead of Mantle, both of whom were way ahead of everyone else), and tied for 2nd (behind Mantle) in 1955. Most of the time it was the lead off hitter (so Rizzuto) who was ahead of him. Berra batting behind DiMaggio and Mantle (and others like Bauer and Rizzuto, particularly in his good years) helped as well. RBI opportunities are more plentiful when you come to the… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

BTW, according to at least one measure, Yogi was the 6th most clutch hitter of all time.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/yogi-berra-was-certifiably-clutch/

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Jackson, Goslin, Ashburn

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Early update, through 14 votes (Gary Bateman @72)

7 – Shoeless Joe Jackson
=======50% (7)
6 – Gabby Hartnett, Ed Walsh
4 – Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn, Goose Goslin
=======25% (4)
3 – Kevin Brown
2 – Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm
=======10% (2)
1 – Dennis Eckersley, Graig Nettles, Satchel Paige, Dave Winfield
0 – Andre Dawson

David Horwich

9 years ago

Hartnett, Nettles, Tiant

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Voting for :

Shoeless Joe Jackson
Ed Walsh
Hoyt Wilhelm

Mike L

9 years ago

A little off point (a lot off point) but in yesterday’s NYT, there’s an interesting article about Doc Adams, possibly the first shortstop, who played for the Knickerbockers in 1845. Baseball reference has nothing on him, but I thought HHS readers might like it. The link is below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/nyregion/late-rally-for-doc-adams-a-jeter-before-there-were-mitts.html?ref=sports

JasonZ

9 years ago

Yogi caught both ends of twin bills 117 times.

Yeesh!

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

And a fair number of those were on consecutive days.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I went through Berra’s batting logs, and it looks like these are all the times he caught both ends of a doubleheader on consecutive days: 1) May 30-31 1948 – 2nd game on the 30th was a 5-inning game. 2) Sept 10-11 1949 – replaced after 5 innings of game 1 on Sept 11; both game 2s were less than 9-inning games. 3) Sept 25-26 1950 *) Aug 3-5 1951 – Not quite consecutive, but Berra caught both ends of doubleheaders on Aug 3 and 5, as well as a single game on Aug 4, for 5 games caught in… Read more »

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

There’s an interesting bit in “The Summer of 1949”. In 1948, Berra asked out of the second game of a double header late in the season–and his replacement, Gus Niarhos, came up several times with men on base and failed. DiMaggio then said out loud in the clubhouse “a 20 year old kid and he can’t play both ends of a double header when we’re fighting down the stretch. What kind of bullshit is this?” Berra’s work habits improved.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

In Berra’s early years he was frequently referred to as Larry. The name Yogi didn’t fully catch on until a little later in his career. In game 6 of the 1952 World Series Dodger announcer Tex Rickards announced him as Larry Berra.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Then again, NYC media often refer to the Braves’ slugger as Larry Jones, when the rest of the country calls him Chipper.

Brendan Bingham

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Perhaps it’s home team bias, but New York Times articles in 1947 (I downloaded several for a book chapter I wrote for a SABR project a few years ago) routinely refer to him as Yogi.

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Based on his B-Ref game logs, I count 119 dates in which Yogi caught full games in both ends of a doubleheader, plus 24 more in which he caught one complete game and another partial game. Eleven of these 119 doubleheaders included one game that lasted fewer than nine innings: two five-inning games, one six-inning game, two seven-inning games, and six eight-inning games. By the same token, though, 10 of those dates featured Yogi’s catching all of a 10-inning complete game, three an 11-inning complete game, one a 13-inning CG, one a 14-inning CG, and one a 15-inning CG. By… Read more »

Kirk

9 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson, Hoyt Wilhelm and Ed Walsh

e pluribus munu

9 years ago

Paige, Goslin, Hartnett

T-Bone

9 years ago

D. Allen, Wilhelm, Shoeless.

By all accounts Mr. Berra was a wonderful person and a WWII vet as well as a great Baseball player. A true icon.

Daniel Longmire

9 years ago

I’ve been having issues with posting to this site (should have been comment #68), so I’ll try this one more time: There was a strange situation a few days ago in the Jays-Yankees game. Slade Heathcott was at the plate, with Rico Noel at first. Noel broke for second on the pitch, and Heathcott fouled it into the third-base stands. However, Dioner Navarro was called for catcher’s interference, and given an error as well; Heathcott took first and Noel moved to second. I have three questions about this scenario: 1) Why was Navarro charged with an error on an event… Read more »

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Not sure on 1 or 2 but I would figure if a guy dropped an easy pop-up in foul territory that he’d get an error. It’s a live ball in the sense that you can tag up on foul ball fly-outs, I guess, but pretty close.

Based on what you said, I’m guessing obstruction usually causes an error. Observe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_(baseball) -yes I know, Wikipedia, but I’m not writing an essay. Notice the example from 8/6/2004 game.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TBA/TBA200408060.shtml
Notice Jose Lopez was charged with an error, see the last item in the PBP. Guessing it does always rule as an error.

Daniel Longmire

9 years ago

Reply to brp

Yes, I’m guilty of also reading the Wikipedia article before I wrote the first post. That 2004 boxscore doesn’t mention the obstruction, but that sounds like a strange play regardless; how does a shortstop get into the position of blocking a runner tagging from third? Still, I’m more interested in the WHY the error is charged, rather than the HOW; after all, a pitcher isn’t dinged with an error if he commits a balk, which moves runners up in a similar fashion. Isn’t being charged with obstruction or interference enough punishment? oneblankspace, I see what you mean, but except for… Read more »

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

In the event of catcher’s interference, the catcher is charged an error, the batter is awarded first base without being charged a time at bat in the statistics, and a note is added to the box score :

Heathcott awarded first base on catcher’s interference.

If a thrown (not pitched) ball goes out of play, it is dead and the player is usually charged with an error.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Daniel Longmire

Official Rules, 10.12(c) provides that a player is charged with an error: “When an umpire awards the batter or any runner or runners one or more bases because of interference or obstruction, the official scorer shall charge the fielder who committed the interference or obstruction with one error, no matter how many bases the batter, or runner or runners, may advance.”

So, the way I read this is that any time a runner advances because of obstruction, it is an error on the fielder causing obstruction.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Hub Kid

9 years ago

I was sure it was going to be Hartnett vs. Jackson last round, but that didn’t take account of Frank ‘Home Run’ Baker.

There are way too many deserving holdovers for me to spare more than one vote for the top of the ballot. I am really stuck here; if I vote for Hartnett I may miss the chance of voting for Shoeless Joe Jackson; and if I vote for Jackson and he wins I share responsibility for more ballot limbo for Hartnett, who I am sure was as good as Baker.

Tiant, Nettles and… Hartnett.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Through 20 (Hub Kid @111; * marks those off the bubble):

10 – Shoeless Joe Jackson*
===============50% (10)
9 – Gabby Hartnett*
8 – Ed Walsh
5 – Dick Allen, Goose Goslin*, Hoyt Wilhelm
===============25% (5)
4 – Richie Ashburn, Luis Tiant
3 – Kevin Brown, Graig Nettles
2 – Satchel Paige
===============10% (2)
1 – Dennis Eckersley, Dave Winfield
0 – Andre Dawson

Very, very tight three-horse race between Jackson, Hartnett, and Walsh.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Walsh is a maybe for me but at the very least I think he needs to simmer in the holdover stew for a few rounds. I’m going with Hartnett over Jackson just because I see him as more deserving & Jackson has more eligibility.

My vote:

Hartnett, Tiant and…. Nettles

(it was between Nettles & Ashburn & Ashburn already had 4 votes)

9 years ago

Kevin Brown, Luis Tiant, Ed Walsh

Jeff B

9 years ago

Walsh to win, Dawson and Winfield to stay on the ballot

billh

9 years ago

Winfield, Dawson, Jackson

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Hartnett, Goslin, and Wilhelm

Stephen

9 years ago

Ashburn, Goslin, Hartnett

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Harnett, Dawson, and Paige

Was wondering why Evers didn’t have any votes, then realized I somehow confused him with Gehringer. Monday mornings.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

I suspect a lot of people consider Evers to be a poor HOF selection but I think the reality is a bit more complicated. The Hall of Stats see him as being only the 23rd best second baseman but by the time we’re done the COG should have 14 second basemen. The 119 players selected by the BBWAA make up only about half of the players currently in the HOF. It’s not like he was High Pockets Kelly (#90 among 1st basemen) or Tommy McCarthy (#136 among right fielders) or something. He also got pretty strong support from the BBWAA,… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

No vote changes were made this round, and now we’re all locked in. It’s still anybody’s ballgame (through Artie Z. @129, the 27th vote):

=======50% (14)
13 – Gabby Hartnett
11 – Shoeless Joe Jackson
10 – Ed Walsh
7 – Goose Goslin
=======25% (7)
6 – Luis Tiant, Hoyt Wilhelm
5 – Dick Allen, Richie Ashburn
4 – Kevin Brown, Graig Nettles
3 – Andre Dawson, Satchel Paige, Dave Winfield
=======10% (3)
1 – Dennis Eckersley

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I forgot to note this, but only Hartnett, Jackson, and Goslin have any extra eligibility lying around. Meaning that, right now, Dennis Eckersley (along with perhaps the pack at 3 votes) is in danger of falling off the ballot.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

At this count, Brown and Nettles are tied for 9th and 10th place.

Steve

9 years ago

Shoeless Joe Jackson; Hoyt Wilhelm; Gabby Hartnett

Joseph

9 years ago

Joe Jackson, Hartnett, and Nettles

dr-remulak

9 years ago

Jackson, Nettles, Winfield.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Dennis Eckersley
Joe Jackson
Hoyt Wilhelm

Mike L

9 years ago

Hartnett, Goslin, and Tiant.
I have to think about Walsh. It’s hard to pass over the career leader in ERA (7th among starters in ERA+) and he will hold.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Jackson, Hartnett, Winfield.

bstar

9 years ago

I think I voted for Gabby Hartnett at some point earlier in this process. I will do it here since he’s been around the longest and is pretty clearly qualified. But I do support Jackson and Walsh also.

Hartnett, Eckersley, Dawson

opal611

9 years ago

For the 1881 & 1882 election, I’m voting for:
-Andre Dawson
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Brown
-Goslin
-Ashburn
-Nettles
-Allen
-Jackson
-Tiant
-Walsh