Circle of Greats 1890 Balloting

117 Replies

This post is for voting and discussion in the 100th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1890. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1890-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1890-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Thursday, July 16th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, July 14th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1890 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1890 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1890 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
George Sisler (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1890, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Max Carey
Sam Rice
Stuffy McInnis
Mike Gonzalez
Ivey Wingo
Eddie Ainsmith
Howie Shanks
Casey Stengel
Ken Williams
Max Flack
Doc Lavan
Baby Doll Jacobson
Possum Whitted
Walton Cruise
Larry Kopf
Ossie Vitt
Benny Kauff
Red Smith
Buck Weaver

Pitchers (born in 1890, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Dolf Luque
Bob Shawkey
Rube Benton
Urban Shocker
Dave Danforth
Dixie Davis

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Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Brown 43.3 Reuschel 40.6 Tiant 37.5 Lyons 36.7 Nettles 35.7 Evans 34.9 Eckersley 34.6 Ashburn 33.9 Shocker 33.2 Sisler 32.0 Goslin 31.7 Winfield 31.1 Hartnett 30.3 Wilhelm 28.7 Carey 25.7 Luque 24.4 KWilliams 23.3 Kauff 19.8 (12.7 in 2 Federal League seasons!) Shawkey 19.4 Campanella 19.2 Rice 18.2 If we were looking to populate a group the size of the Hall of Fame, we’d have seven debatable cases among the newcomers, with Shocker the most likely inductee. For a club as exclusive as ours, only Shocker’s case is worth a look, unless you give Luque some pioneer credit. Shocker had… Read more »

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

I recall Bill James talking about the 1927 Yankees pitching staff and how while there were no clear HOFers on it, the 2 that did get in were almost certainly the wrong 2.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

Is Max Carey overvalued or undervalued by the lack of some information about his statistics? For instance his caught stealing numbers are not known for some of his career. Also, the position he played early in his career was either left field or center field. Obviously he is a more valuable player as a CFer than a LFer. Just curious if his WAR/WAA stats have been skewed one way or the other by the missing information and which way?

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

Brent – Baseball Reference uses a regression formula for years with missing caught stealing data. (the data is available at the league level even when it’s not available at the individual level). They put a cap on anyone having a success rate above 80%. As a point of comparison, Fangraphs has Carey at 60.1 WAR (vs 54.2 for Baseball Reference). I’m not entirely sure why Fangraphs has him higher as sometimes it’s hard to compare between the sites based on differences in how they present data. Anyway, even with 60.1 WAR it’s hard to see Carey as a good candidate… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

While it is true that Carey’s caught stealing numbers are unknown for 11 of his 20 seasons, we do have complete caught stealing numbers for the other 9 seasons (1913, 1915-1916, and 1920-1925). In those 9 seasons, Carey stole 446 bases in 555 attempts, which is an 80.36% clip. His SB% was boosted, of course, by his famous 1922 season, in which he stole 51 bases and was caught stealing only twice.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

#4 is Gary Sheffield.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. Answers in red. 1. Sam Rice and Pete Rose are the only players with 2500 hits aged 30+. Rice’s ten consecutive seasons (1921-30) with 30 doubles and 10 triples is the longest such streak of seasons. Who holds the NL record? Paul Waner 2. Dolf Luque’s career totals of 3220 IP and 194 wins are both fewest among 20 pitchers since 1901 with 3000 IP aged 29+. Who is the only pitcher in that group with career ERA above 4.00? Jamie Moyer 3. Max Carey led the NL in stolen bases at age 35, tied with Lou… Read more »

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#4 is Gary Sheffield. (moved from wrong place, sorry)

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#25 is such a strange answer. It is Joey Cora in 1998, with 111 runs scored. His best two season by WAR are his last 2. Not sure why he didn’t come back in 1999 (BR says he was signed as a FA by the Blue Jays that winter, but he never played for them)

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

Wikipedia says he was suffering from injuries.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#15–What do you consider the live ball era?

It appears that Doug Baird did the same thing in 1915, but that’s not generally considered the live ball ear, right?

Bernie Friberg did it in 1926–which I’m pretty certain is the live ball era.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Live ball era is generally regarded as since 1920.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

13. Urban Shocker – Dave McNally, 1968-1971.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 10: In 1941 Dolph Camilli led the league in HR and RBI and teammate Pete Reiser led in batting.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#11 (Casey Stengel) is Jeff Francouer 2005 (his rookie year). He has only topped it twice since (3.3 in 2007 in 696 PA and 3.1 in 2011 in 656 PA)

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 24: Joe Stripp. He had 589 games for the Dodgers and 59 for the Braves.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

With Atlanta’s acquisition of Juan Uribe, he could be passing Stripp in the next month or so.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#1 Rice–Is it Stan the Man?

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

It’s not Musial.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I think the Ossie Vitt question’s answer is Donie Bush.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#2 – Dolf Loque question: Jamie Moyer?

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#3 Max Carey question: Rickey Henderson seemed a sure bet, but he only led the league once age 35+. The most I’ve been able to find so far is Eddie Collins with two such seasons.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Pretty sure your Collins guess is correct

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#7, Yankees, searchable, GF = W ≥ 10: Alfredo Aceves, 2009 (10).

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

One more tonight. #9 Eddie Ainsmith question: I was about to guess Cesar Tovar, who played all nine positions on the last day of the 1968 season, when I remembered that Drew Butera pitched an inning (scoreless) against the Brewers a few years ago. Butera, a good defensive catcher now with the Royals, has had more dWAR than oWAR every year and has never hit above .198 in a season. He apparently can pitch a little, though, hitting the mid-90’s with his fastball. He also pitched a scoreless inning for the Dodgers last May, but then was tagged for two… Read more »

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

It is Butera.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Got it now – the answer to #12 is Cecil Travis. It looks like he had three seasons of 90+ games at 3B and four at SS.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Question 22: Herb Pennock whose ERA+ improved from 83 to 111.

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#18, most recent OF with .500 SLG: Melvin Mora, 2003, .503 (33 XBH in 413 PA).

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Kahuna Tuna

Reminder to self: Site reads greater-than and less-than signs as HTML code. Avoid.

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#21, tie for most walks by Browns/Orioles pitcher in season with 5.0+ WAR and 120+ ERA+: Bobo Newsom, 1934.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#16 (Baby Doll Jacobson) is the Orioles current centerfielder, Adam Jones who played all 162 games in 2012

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#23 (Benny Kauff). I will guess Chili Davis in 1984. He played more games in CF than any other position that year, so I think that qualifies him as a CFer. OK, a little more checking brings me to the conclusion it was Brett Butler in 1988, not Davis.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Brent

It was Butler. He almost did it again two years later with a 121 OPS+.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

1. Sam Rice – Is it Paul Waner (also 10 straight)?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

It is Waner, but he had 9 straight seasons (1926-34), not ten.

Waner’s *average* for those seasons: 41 doubles and 16 triples!

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

8. Rube Benton – Dummy Taylor, in 1901. I should’ve just checked chronologically; it would’ve saved me some time. 🙂

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

17. Possum Whitted – Reggie Sanders, for the ’01 D’backs and the ’02 Giants. He also played for the ’00 Atlanta Braves, which won 95 games – that’s a pretty good three-teams-in-three-years run. Sanders also played 100+ games for seven teams in seven years: ’98 Reds, ’99 Padres, ’00 Braves, ’01 Diamondbacks, ’02 Giants, ’03 Pirates, ’04 Cardinals. I wonder if that’s a record – seems like it should be.

Following the 2002 season, I was hoping the Brewers would sign him, so that we would win the pennant in ’03.

Brent

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#19 is the wonderful Enzo Hernandez, who in 1971 had a slash line of .222/.295/.250 and scored 58 runs and drove in 12 (!!) for the Padres in 618 plate appearances.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

14 Flack – Austin Jackson.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to brp

Looks to me like the answer is Bip Roberts.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I missed the batting .300 portion. Whoops!

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#5, only catcher post-1960 w/3000+ PA, fewer than 20 HR and fewer than 20 3B: Bruce Benedict.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Benny Kauff was the third player overall, and the first not from Boston (A.L.), with two homeruns in a World Series game.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Question 6: Mike Matheny

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Looks like I botched the question.

Matheny does match Wingo, without a qualifying season and with 12 seasons with more RBI than Runs. But, there’s somebody else with more such seasons. Who is he?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

How about Alan Ashby?

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Goin’ back to my classic ballot:

Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Roy Campanella

David P

9 years ago

Tiant, Nettles, and Shocker (why not?)

Andy

9 years ago

Goose Goslin, Kevin Brown, Hoyt Wilhelm

Brent

9 years ago

Brown, Goslin and Wilhelm

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Sisler, Goslin, Ashburn

Chris C

9 years ago

Eckersley, Ashburn, Campanella

KalineCountry

9 years ago

Goslin
Sisler
Campy

Darien

9 years ago

Eckersley, Wilhelm, and Sisler

9 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel shocker

JEV

9 years ago

Campanella, Hartnett, Goslin

brp

9 years ago

Vote:

Reuschel
Ashburn
Wilhelm

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Consistency.
Rice’s Total Bases in all of his full seasons:

216
229
.
267
262
268
268
.
286
287
285
.
246
270
261
271

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I’ve always marvelled at the consistency of Rice’s seasonal OPS+ scores.

123
122
117
120
103
123
114
112
116
94
115
106
118

I suppose it was easier to put up consistent OPS numbers when you’re hitting less than 5 homers a year, but it’s still impressive.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

The case for Max Carey. ___ He contributed in every aspect of the game: Rbat / Rbaser / Rfield 119 / 88 / 86 _____________ Max Carey led the league in Steals 10 times. 2nd place three times (and a 4th and a 5th). In his era in the NL, he was the man. Steals leaders, 1901 – 1929: 897 … Cobb 741 … Collins 738 … Carey 601 … Honus 495 … Clyde Milan _____________ On defense, he led all outfielders in putouts 9 times. And is 4th all-time: Mays Speaker Rickey Max Carey Cobb ________ His one opportunity… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

As we approach the end of the COG great balloting, just an observation: It seems like a player will make it into the circle of greats if he has WAR GE 65, unless he played a significant part of his career in the 1970’s. Then it takes about 70 WAR to get in. Unless you’re a catcher–the voters give you a little slack–may 2 or 3 points of WAR. In other words, it looks like all the eligible position players with WAR GE 65 are in, except Nettles, Randolph, Buddy Bell, and Dwight Evans. Just an observation–and I’m not even… Read more »

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Rafael Palmeiro is also not in with 71.6 WAR (but with some baggage), and Don Sutton is on the outside with 68.7 WAR.

Bunch of players (fifteen by my count) in the 60 but less than 65 WAR range.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Goslin, Sisler, Hartnett

David P

9 years ago

A non-related question for the PI masters:

Indians rookie Cody Anderson has made 4 ML starts and in every one he’s gone at least 6 2/3 innings and allowed 1 or fewer runs.

When was the last time someone started their career like that?

If you want to throw in some more wrinkles…

He’s struck out 4 or fewer batters in each start and he’s walked 2 or fewer in each start.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to David P

David, it looks like Anderson’s 4 is the second longest streak. Someone started his career with 7 games of at least 6-2/3 IP and 1 or fewer runs allowed, but I don’t have a PI subscription and haven’t been able to identify that player.

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

No PI subscription for me either, but I remember: Fernando Valenzuela, 1981, 2 ER in his first 63 IP as a starter (7 starts, 7 complete games, 5 shutouts). Here’s a link to his 1981 gamelog.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

I think David P is looking for a pitcher who started his career with 4 starts. Valenzuela’s streak was not the start of his career, he pitched in 10 games not as a starter before that 7 game streak. My PI search showed no other pitcher to start a career with 4 such games. It showed 11 pitchers with 3 such games.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Thanks Scary, Kahuna, and Richard! I honestly didn’t have anything particular in mind though I’m honestly shocked that Anderson is the 1st or 2nd (if you include Fernando) to pull off that feat. I wouldn’t have thought it quite that rare.

Anyway, I have serious doubts that Anderson can be successful long term. Among pitchers with 30+ innings this year, he has the second lowest K/9 (3.26 vs 3.12 for Chi Chi Rodriguez another rookie).

David P

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Ooops, that should read Chi Chi Gonzalez.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to David P

David, I appreciate the question you asked about Anderson, and I likewise doubt he’ll keep this up long. His stats reminded me of Andrew Albers, a soft tossing lefty who got his shot in 2013 when the Twins ran out of options with him. In his debut, he held the Royals scoreless through 8-1/3 IP, with Casey Fien finishing the shoutout. His next outing was a 3-0 complete game shutout of the Indians. I’m pretty sure I heard that his 17-1/3 scoreless innings was the longest to begin a career (among starters), but he only struck out two batters in… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to David P

@80: Dave Ferriss of the Red Sox started off his career with 22 scoreless IP as a starter in 1945. Don’t know if that is a record.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to David P

@81: Albers’ total (17-2/3 IP before giving up a run in his third outing) did seem a bit light to actually be the record. George McQuillan started his career with 25 scoreless innings for the Phillies in 1907. His six appearance that season, though, included one in relief, and there are no game logs to verify whether the relief appearance was included in the streak. So, Ferriss might indeed be the record holder among starters. The record for all pitchers is 39 IP by reliever Brad Ziegler of the A’s in 2008. Tom Phoebus also topped Albers, throwing two complete… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to David P

@82: Al Worthington and Karl Spooner also started their careers with 2 nine-inning shutouts.

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I think Fernando is the one and only. I narrowed my PI search to “Longest Streak with IPouts>=20, R<=1 for 1981, Playing for LAD, as Starter, to start career," and the 7-game streak was one of two results that came up. Apparently the PI overlooks debut relief appearances and considers only the pitcher's first starts, whenever they occur.

I hadn't heard of Cody Anderson till now. You can bet I'll be following his starts!

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Kahuna Tuna

Thanks for the help in solving this. Richard, you found what I had intended to search for; and, Kahuna, you explained why I found Valenzuela instead – except I didn’t think it was him at the time. Valenzuela was one of the first pitcher I looked at, but I figured it couldn’t be him because he didn’t have the requisite 6-2/3 innings pitched in his first seven appearances. Now I understand he did have the longest streak of starts of at least that length without giving up more than one run. If each of the first appearances in a career… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Kahuna Tuna

Glad to help, Scary. Anything for a brother.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Anderson’s 4-game streak is the longest searchable streak to start a career, with:
– Game start, 6 IP, 1 run or less, 6 hits or less
– Game start, 6 IP, 1 run or less, 2 walks or less
– Game start, 6 IP, 1 run or less, 4 strikeouts or less

T-Bone

9 years ago

Reuschel, Wilhelm, Campanella

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

It seems as if we have an unusual number of First Year players making an impact right now. Here’s the players who debuted in 2015 and who have at least 1 WAR at the (roughly) halfway point: 2.2 … Mike Montgomery 1.7 … Lance McCullers 1.3 … Cody Anderson (that’s about to go up) 1.3 … Williams Perez 1.2 … Taylor Jungmann 1.2 … Roberto Osuna 1.1 … Eduardo Rodriguez 1.0 … Chi Chi Gonzalez 3.0 … Kris Bryant 1.6 … Devon Travis 1.5 … Carlos Correa 1.2 … Jung Ho Kang 1.1 … Addison Russell ________________________ In 2014, 5… Read more »

Paul E

9 years ago

Winfield, Shocker, Carey

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Kevin Brown, Ted Lyons, Gabby Hartnett Lyons and Tiant are my favorites among our borderline pitchers, but Brown really does have a stronger statistical case than either, although I think Tiant is very similar (2-4 great seasons, and a solid career with good WAA and okay WAR). Tiant also has none of Brown’s drawbacks, along with the interesting career arc. As for Lyons, he should at least be on the scoreboard by now if he is going to stay on the ballot. I am starting to think that Brown may not be a HOFer due to all of those drawbacks,… Read more »

9 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Ted Lyons

mosc

9 years ago

Hartnett, Campanella, Nettles

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

Max Carey
Dennis Eckersley
Hoyt Wilhelm

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

We’re nearly 20 votes in, which these days is almost half our total voters. So here are the early returns in what is (so far) a wide-open race:

7 – Roy Campanella
6 – Kevin Brown, Goose Goslin, Hoyt Wilhelm
5 – Rick Reuschel*
=================================25% (5)
4 – Richie Ashburn*, Gabby Hartnett, George Sisler
3 – Dennis Eckersley, Urban Shocker*
2 – Max Carey*, Ted Lyons*, Graig Nettles, Luis Tiant*
=================================10% (2)
1 – Dave Winfield*

David P

9 years ago

VOTE CHANGE

Of the current top 8 vote getters, the only one I’ve ever voted for is Campy. And since I mostly voted for Shocker on a lark, I’m going to drop him and add Campy. Plus keep Nettles and Tiant.

BillH

9 years ago

Winfield, Sisler, Tiant

koma

9 years ago

Goose Goslin, Dennis Eckersley, Hoyt Wilhelm

David Horwich

9 years ago

Campanella, Nettles, Tiant

dr-remulak

9 years ago

Campanella, Winfield, Ashburn.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Campanella, Hartnett, Lyons

aweb

9 years ago

Brown
Lyons
Sisler

Stephen

9 years ago

Campanella, Ashburh, Sisler

bstar

9 years ago

Eckersley, Wilhelm, Hartnett

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

A quick update:

12 – Roy Campanella
8 – Hoyt Wilhelm
7 – Kevin Brown, Goose Goslin, George Sisler
=====================25% (7)
6 – Richie Ashburn*, Gabby Hartnett
5 – Dennis Eckersley, Rick Reuschel*
4 – Ted Lyons*, Luis Tiant*
3 – Graig Nettles, Dave Winfield*
=====================10% (3)
2 – Max Carey*, Urban Shocker*

Steven

9 years ago

Sisler. Goslin. Hartnett.

Joseph

9 years ago

Nettles, Winfield, Brown

Mike L

9 years ago

Ted Lyons Fans: There’s a piece in Fangraphs today that has a bit about Ted Lyons: It’s towards the back end of the piece, their weekly Sunday blog notes, and the link is http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-drafting-aiken-yankees-marlins-more/ I’ve “The National Pastime, a publication of the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR), includes an intriguing article about former White Sox pitcher Ted Lyons. Written by Herm Krabbenhoft, it looks into the career of a pitcher who fashioned a record of 260-230 from 1923-1946. More specifically, it explores how many of Lyons’ “119 complete game losses (and four of his incomplete game losses) might have… Read more »

Shard

9 years ago

Richie Ashburn – George Sisler – Goose Goslin

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

We have exactly 30 votes, which is a nice round number, so I’ll post another update:

12 – Roy Campanella
9 – Goose Goslin, George Sisler
8 – Kevin Brown, Hoyt Wilhelm
=============25% (8)
7 – Richie Ashburn, Gabby Hartnett
5 – Rick Reuschel*, Dennis Eckersley
4 – Ted Lyons*, Graig Nettles, Luis Tiant*, Dave Winfield*
=============10% (4)
2 – Max Carey*, Urban Shocker*

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Vote Change (from 68 above): new vote: Kevin Brown, Ted Lyons, Urban Shocker
(substituting Shocker for Hartnett)

I thought Shocker would get the ‘new guy bonus’, but does that only apply to Hall of Famers? Shocker had a great short career (13 seasons, 29 WAA, 54.9 WAR; only below average in one season w/ -.1 WAA in his 2nd season, 1917).

When it comes to the borderline, my biggest adjustment is ‘Hall-worthy & missed by the Hall of Fame’, and that covers Shocker pretty well by me.

Josh

9 years ago

George Sisler, Gabby Hartnett, Max Carey

considered Sam Rice and Urban Shocker, but just couldn’t. Benny Kauff could have been on this list if he didn’t run into trouble, was a good young talent.