Circle of Greats 1891-92 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 99th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1891 or 1892. Rules and lists are after the jump.

We’re doubling up on birth years this round to try and make the remaining elections and available COG spots come out the same. We’ll do this a couple of more times when there is a dearth of top-caliber players in consecutive birth years.

The new group of players born in 1891 or 1892, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, July 7th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, July 5th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1891-92 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new candidates will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1891 and 1892 birth-year players are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
George Sisler (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Hoyt Wilhelm (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1891 or 1892, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Rabbit Maranville
Ray Schalk
Steve O’Neill
Roger Peckinpaugh
Dave Bancroft
Les Mann
Wally Gerber
Hank Severeid
Nemo Leibold
Everett Scott
Jack Tobin
Josh Billings
Bubbles Hargrave
Johnny Rawlings
George Harper
Walter Holke
Eddie Murphy
Roxy Walters
Charlie Deal
Patsy Gharrity
Joe Harris
Hal Janvrin
Elmer Smith
Ray Chapman

Pitchers (born in 1891 or 1892, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Sad Sam Jones
Eppa Rixey
Clarence Mitchell
Bullet Joe Bush
Bill Doak
Dazzy Vance
Wilbur Cooper
Carl Mays
Art Nehf
Hal Carlson
Earl Hamilton
Sherry Smith
Jesse Barnes
Joe Oeschger
Jack Scott
Dutch Leonard
Leon Cadore
Pol Perritt
Ferdie Schupp

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Darien
9 years ago

Wilhelm, Eckersley, and Wascally Wabbit Maranville

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
9 years ago

I believe Eckersley finished at >25% last round to win an extra round of eligibility.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

Basketball seems to come to mind for me with this list. Sad Sam Jones meet Sam Jones (never thought of him as particuarlly “happy” mind you) http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jonessa01.html Rabbit Maranville meet Pistol Maravich (nick and “mara” and same sylabbles) http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maravpe01.html Eppa Rixey meet Pat Riley (very close last names) http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/rileypa01c.html I’m sure there are more but reading through the best of our newcomers I kept noticing how close these guys were to the basketball hall of fame. Vote? I could copy and paste my whole diatribe but I’ll spare you. Besides some cool names I fail to see anybody from this… Read more »

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Nobody worthy? Ehhhh… maybe. Dazzy Vance 1924, via Wiki but confirmed at bbref (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/1924-pitching-leaders.shtml): “He finished the season with 262 strikeouts, more than any two National League pitchers combined (Burleigh Grimes with 135 and Dolf Luque with 86 were second and third respectively). That season, Vance had one out of every 13 strikeouts in the entire National League.” That’s incredible. It’d be like somebody hitting 40 triples or 90 HRs or striking out 450 batters now. Led the league in Ks 7 years in a row, ERA+ 3 times, FIP 7 times, WHIP 3 times, SO/BB ratio 8 times, wins… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  brp

In 1924 Vance accounted for 7.7% of all NL strikeouts.
Here are the top ten percentages in the pre-expansion NL:

7.7…..Dazzy Vance, 1924
7.1…..Christy Mathewson, 1903
6.6…..Dazzy Vance, 1925
6.2…..Christy Mathewson, 1908
5.9…..Dazzy Vance, 1928
5.8…..Dazzy Vance, 1923
5.8…..Vic Willis, 1902
5.7…..Van Lingle Mungo, 1936
5.6…..Dizzy Dean, 5.6, 1933
5.6…..Noodles Hahn, 1901

David P
David P
9 years ago

During his 7 year streak of leading the NL in Ks, Vance averaged 6.61 K/9.

The second best in baseball during that period (1,000+ innings) was Bob Shawkey at 4.39. The second best in the NL was Jimmy Ring at only 3.47.

That is pretty mind boggling….

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Dazzy’s black ink was worth a long look. I figured out manually (please correct, and chide, if I am incorrect) when he retired he was eighth in total strikeouts (seventh at modern distance). But he also led the league in strikeouts to walks for eight seasons. Criminy! My back-of-the-envelope count shows that when he retired he ranked 19th. Counting only pitchers who threw from the modern distance, he ranked seventh. The only pitchers ahead of him on both lists are Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson (usual suspects) and Rube Waddell (not a huge surprise.) Along with the other data that… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Doug – According to Vance’s SABR bio, he had ongoing arm issues in his 20s which limited his effectiveness and consistency. It wasn’t till he was 29 or 30 years old that a doctor was finally able to find and correct an underlying arm problem. And even after that 20 win minor league season the Robbins/Dodgers still didn’t want Vance. They actually wanted a catcher named Hank DeBerry. The Robbins nearly declined when told they had to take both Vance and DeBerry or neither. They finally relented when DeBerry intervened and told them that Vance was making him look good,… Read more »

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

I apologize for my lack of clarity. What I meant to convey was that Vance struck out a noteworthy number of batters during the decade of the 1920s, not while Vance was between the ages of 20 and 29. He was old for a successful pitcher in the 1920s, and he accumulated strikeouts at a very high rate both for his time and for his chronological age. Those facts made him an outlier, which I may have tried to state a bit too casually by saying, “‘Geez, he was old; where did all those strikeouts come from in the ’20s?’Turn… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago

Hmmm….Ray Champan and Carl Mays on the ballot together.

Anyway, I want to give a shout out vote to Chapman. I want to vote for Dazzy Vance who was over 60 WAR and nearly 40 WAA in a career that started late. I want to give a shout-out vote to Eppa Rixey – one of two HOFers with whom I share a birtday (Red Ruffing being the other). Plus, I want to vote for Nettles, Tiant and Campanella, just like last time.

I think I`m going to have to wait and see how things go before voting…

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago

Joe Oeschger and Leon Cadore on the ballot together—names forever linked.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Kahuna Tuna

It’s not too often a guy can put up a 140 Game Score and have the lesser of two outings!

Jameson
Jameson
9 years ago
Reply to  Kahuna Tuna

26 innings in under 4 hours. Presumably called for darkness as it ended in a tie.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Sisler, Vance, Ashburn

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Campanella, Hartnett, Goslin

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

All pitching ballot for me today:

Dazzy Vance
Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Minimum 120 IP, lowest H/9:

5.07 … Ferdie Schupp (140 IP)
5.26 … Nolan Ryan
5.28 … Rich Gossage
5.30 … Luis Tiant
5.31 … Nolan Ryan
5.31 … Pedro Martinez
5.32 … Tommy Byrne (134 IP)
5.33 … Ed Reulbach
5.45 … Tom Hall (1970)
5.50 … Hoyt Wilhelm (144 IP)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Schupp followed that seaspon up with a 272 IP, (league leading) 6.7 H/9.

His WAR for those two years was
4.4 and
4.5

His career WAR was 4.3

Chris C
Chris C
9 years ago

Eckersley, Ashburn, Vance

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Campanella should have 4 rounds of eligibility, and Eckersley 2, as has already been noted; we’re suddenly down to just 5 players on the bubble.

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
9 years ago

Roy Campanella
Goose Goslin
Graig Nettles

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Ted Lyons

brent
brent
9 years ago

I am not sure I can even comprehend Vance’s numbers. He put up K numbers that don’t belong at all in his era and he didn’t really get to start his career until he was 31. Goslin sure attracted World Series appearances. During his 18 year career (all in the AL), the Yankees appeared in the WS 10 times. Of the other 8 pennants, Goslin was on 5 of the teams. (he was on all the AL pennant winners not from NY or Philly). Catchers are underrepresented, as are 3rd basemen. I would give Campy a slight edge over Hartnett… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question #20, Charlie Deal: Ron Gant on 10-16-91 as the Braves beat the Pirates.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug, this may be a first for me – no looking up required to answer one of your questions!

24. Bullet Joe Bush – the one-and-only Jack Morris: ’84 Tigers, ’91 Twins, and ’92 Blue Jays.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

6. Dazzy Vance question: My first thought was Robin Roberts, but I have no idea how I would verify the answer.

36. Bubbles Hargrave question: Well, it’s neither Piazza nor Dickey. They were my two guesses, and the best for each was .362.

40. Dutch Leonard question: It’s got to be Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson, right?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

The answer to question 6 is Roberts. Just go to his home page, go to game logs of 1952 and sort by Dec.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago

Thanks, Richard. That was much easier than I would have imagined.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question #3, Clarence Mitchell: The last pitcher is Lindy McDaniel. The other guy is Syl Johnson

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The answer to 36 occured in ’36, when Babe Phelps of Brooklyn hit .367 (and Paul Waner of Pittsburgh hit .373).

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

In 1954 Smoky Burgess hit .368 but in only 392 PA’s. Adding in the necessary PA’s to qualify still left him with the 6th highest batting average that year, somewhere between Ted Kluszewski’s .326 & Red Schoendienst .316.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I believe that the answer to #2 (Eppa Rixey) is Bobo Newsom

Jameson
Jameson
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 1 (Rabbit Maranville): Reggie Sanders? 36 years old with the only swipe for the Cards in the 2004 series.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 8 (Bill Doak): Bill Sherdel went from 2.86 ERA in 1928 to 5.93 in 1929.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I thought the answer to #35 (Joe Oeschger) might be Red Ruffing, during his Dead Sox years, but Ruffing 1926-29 had a knack for keeping his W-L% between .275 and .300. One other thing that stood out for me about Ruffing was his mediocre 1933 season, when he went 9-14 with a 3.91 ERA for the 91-59 Yankees. 1901-2015, qualified for ERA title and ERA = 10 * W-L%: Sad Sam Jones, 1919 Red Sox: 12-20, .375, 3.75 (ERA+ 81) Benn Karr, 1925 Indians: 11-12, .478, 4.78 (ERA+ 93) Larry Benton, 1929 Giants: 12-17, .414, 4.14 (ERA+ 111) Red Ruffing,… Read more »

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Kahuna Tuna

Interesting list.

Highest qualified ERA less than 10 x W-L% is Shawn Estes’ 5.84 when he posted a 15-8 (.652) record in 202 IP for the 2004 Rockies. The Rockies twice (1999, 2001) had two pitchers with qualified ERA over 5.00 and a winning record. Two teams (Red Sox and Rangers) had two such pitchers in 1996.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#30, NL record for hits in a season with an OBP below .400: Lloyd Waner, 1929 Pirates, 234 hits and a .395 OBP (and 20 triples).

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Okay, got an answer on #35 (two consecutive seasons with 20+ decisions and W-L% ≤ .250): John Buzhardt, 1960-61 Phillies.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#12, most recent pitcher with a sub-.500 career W-L% with 2000+ IP and BB/9 under 2.00: Ken Raffensberger, 1939-54.

Raffensberger’s .436 career W-L% (119-154) is the second lowest among all pitchers who have at least 150 decisions and shutouts accounting for 25% or more of their career wins. Which pitcher who meets these criteria had a lower career W-L% than Raffensberger?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question #18 (Ferdie Schupp): Nate Andrews

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#10 is Bobby Wallace

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 28 (Hal Carlson): Preacher Roe and Stan Coveleskie

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#32 is John Kruk.

Nemo Leibold is a favorite of mine. Cool name and a Clean Sock.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#7 is Leo Norris in 1936

He was 28, had an OPS+ of 79 and only played 2 years in the bigs. Small wonder those Phillies teams of the 30s regularly 100 games

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Regularly lost 100 games

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#22 – Nolan Ryan 1974

I thought it was Blyleven at first with his 17 losses in a 20 win season in ’73 but He didn’t quite get to 38. Ryan did the next year at 22W 16L.

Those were both guy’s best two years even though Blyleven was 4 years younger. Ryan Finished 2nd and 3rd in the Cy young those years, Blyleven 7th and NO VOTES.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ah, that makes more sense. Looking more there were a lot of guys ’69-’79 that reached 38 decisions.

I have another answer I’m not sure you’ll take. Gaylord Perry started 40 games and got decisions in each of them in 1972. He did however pitch a 1 inning save in the 16th inning 4/30/72. Still, he he made 38+ starts and got a decision in all of them. He just also appeared in relief one time.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Perry is the answer.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#41 Tim Laudner by 23 or so plate appearances

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 26 (Art Nehf): Bullet Joe Bush had an HR/9 ratio of .11 thru 1920. From 1921 on it grew to .46 HR/9, an increase of 318.2%. Walter Johnson is second at 312.5%

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

It looks like the difference is due to round-offs in the PI.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

23. Ray Schalk question: I’m guessing it’s Ted Simmons. Maybe someone can let me know if there’s an easier way to verify it than to check the splits for each season.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

I came up with a different answer but I had to do manual searching as well as to use the PI. I have answered several questions so I’ll leave it for someone else to solve. And bear in mind this guy has to have caught at least 120 games, not to have just appeared in 120 games. If you do it right you only have to do manual searching for 11 players.

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

You’re looking for a player with with 120 games caught (see Fielding section of BR Player page) in 10 seasons in an 11-year period. And, the 11th season is an abbreviated one (i.e. 1918, 1981, 1994, 1995 and, I suppose, 1972).

So, it’s not Simmons, whose best run was 9 seasons out of 10 (1971-80) with a miss in 1976.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Actually if done correctly with the PI it is not necessary to go to each player’s home page Fielding chart, it can be solved by using the PI results sheet.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

96-07, 97-08, or 98-09 Jason Kendall caught 129+ games each year except for 1999 but I’m guessing 1999 is not a valid skip year? He did 118+ in 14 out of his 15 year career and 129+ in all but 99 and his last season.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

Scary T: Same era as Simmons, but AL catcher. Won a WS in the mid eighties with a team not the one he had this run with.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Half the answer for #37 is Ducky Medwick (Cardinals and Giants). Putting my thinking cap on for the other player.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

Or not, I quickly found two other players who qualify for the answer under the way I was reading it, so I think I was misunderstanding. (those two players are Kiki Cuyler and Moises Alou).

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

OK, reread the question and think I know where I was going wrong before. Let’s start over. Kiki Cuyler is definitely one of the answers (Pirates and Cubs). Working on the 2nd one.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

So my final answer for #37 is Kiki Cuyler and Lefty O’Doul

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 is Chris Hoiles

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#21, Ray Chapman, R=BB: Tony Phillips, 1992, 114 runs and walks, led AL in runs. Keith Hernandez, 1986, 94 runs and walks, led NL in walks.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ray Schalk question–Is it Gary Carter (abbreviated ’81 season)?

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Les Mann question–I’m going to guess Lance Johnson.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#2 is Rudy May, who pitched for the Yankees, Orioles, and Expos during the relevant period. In 1976, he was the centerpiece of a midseason trade between two teams in the same division, the Yankees and the Orioles, he along with Rick Dempsey, Tippy Martinez, Scott McGregor, and Dave Pagan went to the Orioles, while Doyle Alexander, Jimmy Freeman, Elrod Hendricks, Ken Holtzman and Grant Jackson went to the Yankees. The Orioles did finish 2nd to the Yankees that year, but on the date of the trade they were in 4th, 8 games back of the Bombers. As for the… Read more »

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#11, most consecutive seasons since 1925 catching 115+ games for the Browns/Orioles: Matt Wieters, 4 (2010-13).

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Eddie Murphy #15 is Harry Lord who was 30 of 63 as a basestealer for the 1912 ChiSox.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

That’s who I found — the only player with SB between 30 and 35 and SB less than CS.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#43 is George McBride and Gene Michael.

I would also point out that one of the seven is Dal Maxvil, who never managed the Cardinals, but did coach for them and then, of course, was their GM for a number of years in the eighties and nineties.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 13 (Earl Hamilton): Mike McCormick

Doug: your answer for question 12 should be Ken Raffensberger, not Bill.

brent
brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

On Number 5, I will take a guess and go with Bert Campaneris. I know he meets the criteria, just haven’t checked to see if he is the last person to do it, though no on else comes immediately to mind.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

(Q33): If 1923 counts as Live Ball Era, Eddie Rommel of Philadelphia (A.L.) led his league with 56 appearances and his 19 losses tied with Herman Pillette

DavidHorwich
DavidHorwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#9: Roger Clemens (Red Sox 1986-7, Blue Jays 1997-8) and Wes Ferrell (Indians 1929-32, Red Sox 1935-6).

I guessed Clemens fairly quickly, but had to do some digging to come up with Ferrell.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  DavidHorwich

Jack Chesbro and Vic Willis did it prior to Mays.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

I suspect a number of 19th-century pitchers also accomplished the feat – e.g. Cy Young had consecutive 30 win seasons for 2 different franchises, as did John Clarkson, just to name a couple who came to mind.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

19. Pol Parrott – The 2001 Arizona Diamondbacks (Johnson and Schilling) and the 1961 Dodgers (Koufax and Drysdale). I just tried to think of famous duos, and I got it.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Firstly the Dodgers did not win the pennant in 1961. Next, the Mets did it with Seaver and Koosman in 1969. And Drysdale is the answer to a different question.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago

Drysdale is the answer to Question 16 (Leon Cadore). In 1962, he went 13-16 with a 96 ERA+ in 273-2/3 inning, but only walked 1.48 batters per nine inning.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Thanks for fixing my answers everyone. First of all, I meant 1963; that was the season I was looking at (I’ve never even clicked the 1961 Dodgers link, so I’m not sure why I typed that!), and second of all, I noticed on a second glance today that Drysdale had 12 losses, so that wouldn’t have applied anyway.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 17 (Joe Harris): Kevin Youkilis, 123 OPS+

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#29: Bucky Walters, 1936 (tied for the lead in ShO); Nolan Ryan, 1976.

Incidentally, I hadn’t realized that last year was the first time in baseball history that a league leader for losses had a single-digit total (Kluber and Porcello tied for the AL lead with 9).

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

And also in 2014 Aaron Harang set a NL record for fewest losses for a league leader with 11.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question #14 (Josh Billings): John Wehner

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

39. Dick Allen has just over 300 games at first base for Philadelphia, and an OBP of .371 for them.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

And then I found Ed Bouchée had an OBP of .378.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

It looks to me like you are doing a manual search rather than the BR PI. The PI Split Finder shows 4 players with an OBP higher than Bouchee’s.

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

The leader, after a PI search, seems to be John Kruk at .400 OBP with 504 qualifying games.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

31. Everett Scott question: Ed Brinkman.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

34. Johnny Rawlings question: Everett Scott?

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#27: Warren Spahn had nine in a row. I will guess him

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

And to close out, question 38 (Roxy Walters): Jeff Mathis

dr-remulak
dr-remulak
9 years ago

Nettles, Winfield, Vance.

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Dazzy Vance, Kevin Brown, Goose Goslin

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago

#42, only player to hit a triple and a homer in two different World Series games: Paul Molitor, Blue Jays, Games 3 and 6 of the 1993 Series.

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Dazzy Vance, Dave Winfield, Gabby Hartnett

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Vance,
Winfield,
Hartnett

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

sorry for the duplicate comment…in truth, I only feel that strongly about Vance and Winfield

KalineCountry
9 years ago

Goslin
Sisler
Campy

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Strikeouts, 1893 – 1935 (Vance’s last season)

3509 … Big Train
2507 … Mathewson
2449 … Cy
2316 … Rube
2246 … Plank
2198 … Alexander
2045 … Dazzy Vance
1736 … Ed Walsh
_____________________

Strikeouts, 1915 – 1945
(from his first appearance until 10 years after Vance retired):

2266 … Grove
2045 … Vance
1957 … Ruffing
1834 … Bobo
1823 … Big Train
1677 … Hubbell
1657 … Tommy Bridges

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, Wilhelm, Campanella

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago

Luis Tiant, Dave Winfield, Graig Nettles.

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Sad Sam Jones, Tiant, Ashburn

Shard
Shard
9 years ago

Richie Ashburn – George Sisler – Goose Goslin

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago

Growing up as a Brooklyn fan, Vance’s remarkable career was familiar to me, and I used to feel very frustrated that the Robins fell just short in ’24, since there would surely have been Johnson/Vance match-ups in the Series. I’m glad to see posts here that really seem to appreciate how dominant Vance was in 1924. However, I do feel conflicted about voting for him against Campy, whom I’ve argued for before (and whom, unlike Vance, I saw play). Still . . . Dazzy, Campy, Gabby (It’s a toss-up for me between Hartnett and the Goose – always liked the… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

This crop of new candidates is incredible from the standpoint of the kind of baseball fact and trivia that used to be more popular but has lost its impact in the modern era of numbers crunching—although Dazzy Vance is the only player in the group you might call incredible otherwise. Let’s start with Vance: 1930 ERA of 2.61 led the NL by over a run per game over 2nd place Hubbell’s 3.87. Rabbit Maranville was sent down to the minors for a year (1927) mid-career. Elmer Smith hit the first WS grand slam. Oeschger and Cadore—no need to say more.… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

This election class brings back a lot of great memories. I was in a StratOMatic historical league years ago where we played every season from 1920 until 2000 on line. We didn’t play individual games- the computer did that for us- but each season would be played over 5 or 6 days so we could adjust our lineups, bring up reserves, change settings, make trades & such. Then we would draft from the next years crop of rookies & do it all over again. If memory serves we played for over 3 years. My team was actually named the Bancroft… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

I cannot understand how anyone could vote for Sandy Koufax and not for Dazzy Vance. Their 6 peak seasons are interchangeable. If you throw out the low innings pitched seasons at the beginning of (and in Vance’s case, end) of their careers Vance is considerably better in his non-peak years. And the “what if” factor in Vance’s case is even more compelling than in Koufax’s. Even without injury, pitchers don’t always age well. Most are not freaks of nature like Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson and when they lose a little off of their fastball many cannot adjust. It’s possible… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig – The guy coming up who might be a better Koufax clone is Stan Coveleski. 6 Consecutive Year Peak: Koufax: 46.6 WAR, 30.9 WAA, 1632.2 IP Coveleski: 46.4 WAR, 29.4 WAA, 1803 IP A slight edge to Koufax since he did it in fewer innings. But not much. Like Koufax, Coveleski also had a dominant WS in 1920, winning 3 complete games with a 0.67 ERA. (he didn’t pitch as well in the ’25 Series, going 0-2 with a 3.77 ERA). And both were dreadful hitters. (Vance was pretty bad too). Coveleski has the advantage of 3 other quality… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Coveleski’s case is better than I recall. I thought that like Grimes he had a mediocre stretch prior to the outlawing of the spitball but other than his first full season that wasn’t the case. At a glance I still think I would put him behind Vance & probably Koufax however. He’s a little stronger on the low end of his peak than either of them were but not quite as good on the high end. As far as the spitball goes there were definitely some people who held it against Perry. I voted for him simply because he was… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Your comment also highlights how you get a different picture depending on how you look at something.

Remove the consecutive from the 6 year peak and Vance comes out on top.

Make it 7 years instead of 6 & Koufax is in a distant 3rd (well, maybe not distant but…)

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig: Thanks for the well thought out response. I would likely put Coveleski ahead of Koufax just on the fact that he “did it longer”. Koufax’s overall peak may be a bit higher but I think there’s value in having 9 seasons above 3.5 WAR vs. only 6. And yes, Coveleski’s 1st and 3rd highest WAR seasons came before the banning of the spitball. Beyond that, throwing the spitball was no guarantee of success as the list of grandfathered pitchers shows. And Coveleski claims he didn’t throw it all the time, sometimes going 2 or 3 innings without throwing a… Read more »

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Koufax didn’t get into the COG in a ‘walk’- it took 19 rounds, if I counted right. I think he consistently had support similar to Vance’s now, only during pretty well contested rounds.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

It’s been a while since this was posted, and I have yet to provide an update, so here it is. Fascinating round so far, by the way. And I’m switching BACK now with the asterisks – so those players marked with a * ARE on the bubble. Here’s the update, through e pluribus munu’s vote @72, the 19th: 9 – Dazzy Vance* 7 – Roy Campanella 6 – Goose Goslin 5 – Richie Ashburn*, Gabby Hartnett ====================25% (5) 4 – Graig Nettles 3 – Kevin Brown, George Sisler, Luis Tiant*, Dave Winfield* 2 – Dennis Eckersley, Rick Reuschel*, Hoyt Wilhelm… Read more »

brp
brp
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Thanks for doing this every round, BTW.

David P
David P
9 years ago

Vance, Tiant, and a shout out to Chapman.

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Vance, Reuschel and Wilhelm

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

It will be interesting to see if any one individual benefits from the Killebrew votes that have been freed up or if they split up pretty evenly.

Vance, Campanella, Lyons

I’m conflicted about not voting for Hartnett but I think Campy has a better chance of winning & I want to keep Lyons on the ballot. As always, depending on how things play out it’s possible I may change things.

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Hartnett, Lyons, Tiant Looking at the discussion about Vance, i am sure that all of our borderline pitchers are pretty close to him (except for the closers, who are a different type of case). Vance looks worthy to me, too, but the non-closer borderline guys are not so far off that they should all languish forever. I am going with my two favorites, both with good career value, and like Vance, distinctive and interesting career narratives. For my non-pitcher, I am unsure about Roy Campanella; I am convinced that Hartnett was just as good as Mickey Cochrane, despite the fact… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Vance 41.6
Reuschel 40.6
Tiant 37.5
Lyons 36.7
Nettles 35.7
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Ashburn 33.9
Sisler 32.0
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Hartnett 30.3
Wilhelm 28.7
Bancroft 27.3
Rixey 26.7
Campanella 19.2
Maranville 18.7
Schalk 9.1

I’m tempted to vote against Vance to offset the new-guy bonus, but I’m a peak value guy and Dazzy has it in spades.

Brown, Vance, Nettles

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Bryan – I want to push back a bit on your WAA calculation for Eck. He accumulated -0.6 WAA at age 26 and -1.9 WAA at age 28. Does he really deserve credit for being below average at those ages? Also, I’m not sure the calculation for 1984 is being handled correctly. He split that season between the Cubs and Red Sox, accumulating 2.5 WAA for the Cubs and -0.3 WAA for the Red Sox. You’re wiping out the -0.3 WAA but I don’t think that makes sense. Seems like he should receive 2.2 WAA for that split season, not… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

Thanks for the clarification on Eck in ’84, David. I’ll list him at 34.6 in the future. As to whether he deserves credit for the bad seasons in his prime, by excluding negative seasonal totals, I’m trying to focus on how much greatness a player exhibited, rather than how much total value he accumulated. I understand that it matters that a player may have cost his teams some wins, and it’s true that Eck’s case is unusual in that I’m not just lopping off age 21 or 38 seasons, but ignoring struggles in his prime. Still, I think it makes… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Thanks Bryan – I appreciate your response. I remember this issue came up before (i.e., how to handle sucking in the middle of someone’s career) and for some reason I thought you were of the opinion that players shouldn’t be given credit for that. But that discussion was awhile ago and I obviously confused you with someone else. 🙂

mo
mo
9 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel Wilhelm

Mike G.
Mike G.
9 years ago

Brown, Hartnett, Lyons

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Totals through 26 ballots (#124):

13- Vance
====================50% (13)
8 – Campanella
7 – Hartnett
====================25% (7)
6 – Ashburn*, Goslin
5 – Brown, Nettles, Tiant*
4 – Lyons*, Reuschel*, WIlhelm
3 – Sisler, Winfield*
====================10% (3)
2 – Eckersley
1 – Chapman*, Jones*, Maranville*

koma
koma
9 years ago

Dennis Eckersley, Hoyt Wilhelm, Rabbit Maranville

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

For the 1893 voting it was noted that George Sisler had a spectacular peak, and several years of just above or below average stats. The non-peak years were due to medical problems. The overall HHS consensus was that he does not belong in the COG. Now we have Dazzy Vance on the ballot. He also had a spectacular peak and several years of just above or below average stats. Now the HHS consensus is that he belongs in the COG. Anyway here is my vote: Sisler, Vance, Goslin On Fangraphs I stumbled across a blog by a writer named Wendy… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago

R.C.: Vance averaged just under 6 WAR over ten years, while Sisler averaged a little more that 6 WAR over seven years. I think that’s the major difference. There’s also something more compelling about a player who overcomes adversity. Sisler’s narrative inspires pity, but, as has been pointed out, from the historical retrospective his narrative would be more powerful had he simply retired in 1923 and not struggled on as a shadow of his former self. Further, Vance was arguably the best pitcher in the NL for that decade. It’s far harder to see Sisler as the best position player… Read more »

David P
David P
9 years ago

I look at Vance vs. Sisler this way. Vance is 134th in Innings pitched, yet 47th in pitching WAR. Sisler is 160th in Plate Appearances and 147th in position player WAR. For me, that demonstrates the difference between the two.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago

In 1923, ballplayers didn’t make millions of dollars/year. Retiring just because you are struggling in relation to your prior self wasn’t really an option. I am sure Sisler needed the money. I hardly see that as a character flaw.

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Winfield, Goslin, Sisler.

oneblankspace
9 years ago

Time to vote. Tough choices, can’t decide, so I’ll vote a straight ticket…

Schalk, c
Lyons, p
Wilhelm, p

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Ashburn, Eckersley, Jones

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Stephen

Is this a vote change from #62?

billh
billh
9 years ago

Sisler, Winfield, Nettles

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Vote:

Dennis Eckersley
Ted Lyons
Hoyt Wilhelm

PP
PP
9 years ago

Campy, Eck, Goose

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

sisler, vance, nettles

Doug
Doug
9 years ago

Eckersley, Wilhelm, Vance

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Campanella, Tiant, Winfield