Circle of Greats 1898 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 93rd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1898. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1898-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1898-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Tuesday, May 12th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Sunday, May 10th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1898 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1898 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The seventeen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1898 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Paul Waner (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
David Cone (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Jim Edmonds (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Goose Goslin (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Gabby Hartnett (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ted Lyons (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1898, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Charlie Grimm
Kiki Cuyler
Pie Traynor
Zack Taylor
Cliff Heathcote
Joe Sewell
Riggs Stephenson
Bill Terry
Benny Bengough
Homer Summa

Pitchers (born in 1898, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
George Uhle
Firpo Marberry
Sarge Connally
Rosy Ryan

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David P
David P
9 years ago

I imagine Waner wins this fairly easily. So I’ll vote to keep three players on the ballot:

Edmonds
Lyons
Tiant

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Rosy Ryan

is credited with some black in for his 3.01 era in 1922.
However, the league leader was in fact his teammate Phil Douglas (2.63).
Glitch!

This was Douglas’ final season, and his best.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/douglph01.shtml

oneblankspace
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Not necessarily a glitch. The requirement at that time may have been 10 CG to qualify, and Douglas only had 9 CG. Retrosheet also mentions Ryan was recognized as the league leader at the time.

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

Black ink on Ryan’s page, but Douglas listed in the Seasonal Leaders page. (b-r)

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Let it be Ryan. My father grew up near the Polo Grounds and had been a great fan of Rosy Ryan. Listening to him talk about his baseball heroes when I was little, I understood Ryan to be among the game’s greats. With his 1.3 lifetime WAR, a touch of black ink in a meaningful category would be a slight redemption.

Besides, oneblankspace is correct: the 10 CG rule was only changed in 1950.

Mo
Mo
9 years ago

Waner Reuschel Edmonds

MJ
MJ
9 years ago

Paul Waner, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

George Uhle is a 56 WAR player including his offense.

He holds the record for highest seasonal batting average by a Pitcher with more than 150 PA:

.361 … Uhle
.347 … Ferrell
.343 … Mays (Carl)
.319 … Jack Coombs
.313 … Red Lucas
.302 … Al Orth

Lowering the criteria to 100 PA and Uhle is surpassed by :

.433 … Walter Johnson
.381 … Curt Davis
.364 … Red Ruffing

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Firpo Marberry
was the first pure reliever.

55 Games without a Start in 1925.
First guy to do that.

At least 50 Games, 10 Starts or less, by year:

1917 … 50/9 … Dave Danforth
1922 … 53/10 .. Lou North
1923 … 52/5 … Allen Russell
1925 … 55/0 … Firpo
1926 … 64/5 … Firpo
1927 … 56/10 .. Firpo
1927 … 58/2 … Garland Braxton

Lou North pulled 40/0 in 1921

oneblankspace
9 years ago

That’s a big bubble, with 14 old names and 14 new names.

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
9 years ago

Killebrew, Goslin, and Hartnett

Stephen
Stephen
9 years ago

Killebrew, Cone, Tiant

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

5. The other catcher to catch 300+ games for the Braves and Dodgers is Al Lopez.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

2. Lou Brock, 1968: 46 2B, 14 3B, 62 SB, 92 runs scored.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 10, Joe Sewell: Jimmy Rollins, 7 seasons from 2003-2009.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Question 3, Pie Traynor: Miggie Cabrera 2005-2011

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bill Terry question–Was it Andres Gallaraga?

Doug
Doug
9 years ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

Not Galarraga. This player was an outfielder.

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Gary Bateman

Ralph Garr, NL batting champion for the 1974 Braves: .353 BA, 28 BB in 645 PA.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Riggs Stephenson question–Alfonso Soriano

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

6. Cliff Heathcote question: Steve Ontiveros.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

#4 sounds like a Billy Martin answer (as in name pitchers that Billy ruined the arms of), so I will go with Rick Langford.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Answer to the Rosy Ryan question is Bump Hadley, who pitched 8 innings of relief and picked up the win in Game 3 of the 1939 WS for the Yanks. He replaced HoF’er Lefty Gomez, who gave up 1 run in his sole inning of work.

Interestingly, there’s only been one occurrence of a pitcher getting a relief win with 7 or more IP in the postseason outside of the WS. That was also Ryan; Nolan Ryan, with his 7 inning victory in Game 3 of the 1969 NLCS, replacing starter Gary Gentry.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

The question stated longer than 7.0 IP. Don Larsen pitched 7.1 innings in game 3 of the 1957 WS, finished the game and got the win. I think that’s how Doug meant it.

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

Richard, you’re right, I missed Larsen on the list.

To make up for that, I’ll answer the Homer Summa question: Smoky Joe Wood, ending his second career as a hitter in 1922 with the Tribe.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Benny Bengough question: I hope I did this right.
1943 Yankees, Bill Dickey
1974 A’s, Ray Fosse
2010 Giants, Buster Posey

Darien
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

14. Rosy Ryan: I really really wanted the answer to be 1969 Nolan Ryan, because that would be adorable. Sadly, that was exactly seven innings, and the NLCS rather than the World Series. My dreams — they are in tatters!

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Charlie Grimm question: Jose Bautista?

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Yes, it’s Bautista. Frank Huelsman (1904) comes very close, but since he’d had a handful of big-league at-bats in an earlier year 1904 wasn’t his debut season.

Great question, Doug.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

8. Firpo Marberry question: Lew Krause with the Kansas City A’s in 1967, with the A’s again in 1969 relocated to Oakland, and in 1971 with the Milwaukee Brewers.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago
Reply to  Scary Tuna

I think the answer is Bob Shirley with the 1978-1979 Padres and the 1982 Reds. Lew Krausse started only 16 games in 1969.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago

I’ll need to bone up on my math before Doug’s next quiz. ;o)

Good catch, Richard.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

11. Sarge Connally question: Murry Dickson with the 1947 Cardinals and 1949 Pirates.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago

Doug,

Is Frankie Frisch supposed to be on this ballot? Baseball Reference has his birthday as Sep 9 1897 but his bio on the same site gives it as Sep 9 1898, which matches my 2014 National Baseball HOF Almanac and Players of Cooperstown books. Thought it might be a typo. He has a pretty high WAR value I believe.

Dave Humbert
Dave Humbert
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Fair enough. Not like he’s going to be any worse off then anyway. Should get in pretty quick.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

I think Frisch should be admitted only after some old buddy of his persuades the rest of us with vivid tales of his Herculean prowess on the diamond. For him to be judged on the basis of statistics would be a violation of Frischian principles.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Dave Humbert

Frisch’s birth year seems to be the source of some ambiguity. His bio at the SABR Bio Project also gives 1898. However, a recent SABR book on the 1934 Cardinals, which contains short biographies of every member of the team, has this footnote appended to Frisch’s bio:

“Although Frisch used 1898 as the year of his birth, New York City birth records, Social Security death records, and US Census records indicate that he was born in 1897.”

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Benny Bengough is the answer to the question:

Who was the 3rd string Catcher on the ’27 Yankees with the 65 ops+ ?

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Bill Terry

is 15th all-time in Batting Average.
10th in the live-ball era.

Since 1920:

.374 … Hornsby
.361 … Heilmann
.357 … Cobb
.354 … Speaker
.350 … O’Doul
.347 … Ruth
.346 … Collins
.344 … Sisler
.344 … Ted Williams
.341 … TERRY
.340 … Gehrig
.339 … Wheat
.338 … Gwynn

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

And here are his comps for WAR/PA

55.8 / 7065 … Bill Dickey
54.2 / 7108 … Bill Terry
53.4 / 7297 … Gabby Hartnett
53.2 / 7452 … Jimmy Collins
53.2 / 7153 … Joe Tinker

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Right after Tony Gwynn on that batting average list is a fella on our ballot:

Riggs Stephenson at .336

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Joe Sewell’s most frequent batting order position (with 49 career home runs).
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
was cleanup.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=seweljo01&year=Career&t=b#lineu::none

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo – Sewell played on several Indians teams that failed to reach 30 total home runs. So his lack of home run power fit right in.

In fact, the Indians didn’t reach 100 total home runs until the 1934 season. Which makes me wonder…were they the last franchise to have a 100 home run team?

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

David P:

I’m pretty sure the White Sox hold that honor—among the original franchises, of course. It wasn’t until 1955 that they turned the trick. Old Comiskey Park wasn’t conducive to the long ball, and the team management over time got used to focusing on small ball and pitching. The champion Go-Go Sox of 1959 were last in the league in HRs with 97, I believe.

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Wrong. It occurred to me to check out the Senators: they lasted until 1956, beating the Sox out by a year.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

First season with 100+ HR, per original franchise:

1884 – Cubs (20th C: 1929)
1894 – Braves (20th C: 1945)
1920 – Yankees
1922 – Athletics, Cardinals, Phillies
1925 – Browns, Giants
1929 – Tigers
1930 – Dodgers
1934 – Indians
1937 – Red Sox
1938 – Reds
1947 – Pirates
1955 – White Sox
1956 – Senators

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Thanks NSB and David H! So the Indians weren’t even close to the last to accomplish the feat.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Not only that but nearly a quarter of his 49 HRs were hit in 1932 (11), and I would venture a guess that he did not bat much cleanup on that team (the Bombers).

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

He batted 4th exactly zero times in 1932.

2-hole, every game.
Not a bad place to be.

Though he “only” scored 95 runs in front of Ruth and Gehrig.
He was nearing the end of his career, but I wonder if his modest numbers that year were a product of playing to shoot grounders to the right side, in order to move up Combs (who scored 143).

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Brent

…and all 11 of those homers came at Yankee Stadium.
(as well as his 3 triples).

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

1932 Yankees won 107 games.

Lefty Gomez went 24-7 (.774) with an era+ of 97.
_____________________

Most wins with better than (.750) and an era+ under 100:

24 … Gomez
19 … Larry Christenson
17 … Paul Abbott
16 … Jack Bentley
15 … Firpo Marberry
15 … Russ Meyer
15 … Chuck Dobson
___________________

Steven
Steven
9 years ago

Waner, Goslin, Hartnett.

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
9 years ago

Paul Waner
Minnie Minoso
Bill Terry

Andy
Andy
9 years ago

Waner, Kevin Brown, Lyons

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago

I’m tempted to vote for Pie Traynor, just to start a fight. But I’ll opt for Waner, Campy, and the Goose.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
9 years ago

Waner, Minoso, and Sewell (I think his K/AB percentage displays his worth to be in the COG)

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
9 years ago

Minnie Miñoso, Jim Edmonds, Dave Winfield.

koma
koma
9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley

JEV
JEV
9 years ago

Goslin, Campanella, Hartnett

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
9 years ago

Terry, Nettles, Winfield.

Brent
Brent
9 years ago

Waner, Edmonds and Campy

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
9 years ago

Terry, Waner, Goslin

mosc
mosc
9 years ago

I’d take Winfield over Waner. I’d even take Edmonds over Waner. I’d certainly take Nettles, Campanella, or Hartnett over Waner if we expand beyond the outfield. I will say I like Waner better than Goslin, Minoso, Evans, and Killebrew. I’d also take Ferrell over all these guys (besides our catchers) and I’m not sure where I’d mix in some of our pitchers against Waner either. I really don’t see the Waner love. He had a long career but not exactly dominant long before it ended and his combination of position and lack of power make him nearly as one dimensional… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Can you elaborate on “aged too fast” and “one-dimensional” and “lack of power”?
________

Through age 34:

8088 PA
2473 hits
481 doubles
174 triples

.348 / .417 / .507 / .923 / 142
_____________

More hits than anybody
through the first 12 years of a career (until Ichiro).

While slugging .500.

He’s 64th all-time in Extra Base Hits
(wedged between Gehringer and Larry Walker).

So, no, he wasn’t a slap hitter.
_______

And RF isn’t a prime defensive position, but he is the all-time leader in Putouts. That should count for something.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Sure Winfield’s best season was better than Waner’s best. But Waner’s 2nd best season is better than Winfield’s. As is his 3rd. And 4th. And 5th. All the way down to 12th. Not till we reach the 13th best season does Winfield win another head to head match-up.

Waner won all those head-to-head matchups despite a shorter season.

Hall of Stats has Waner ahead 137 to 113.

Fangraphs gives Waner an even bigger lead over Winfield in WAR than Baseball Reference (74.7 vs 59.9).

Saying you’d take Winfield over Waner is….well I have no words.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago
Reply to  David P

I think the issue that’s often brought up with Winfield, though, is that the “eye test” and the numbers on defense really don’t seem to add up. I never watched him play (too young), so I tend to trust the numbers. But if you have a really strong opinion about it, that’s the ONLY reason he’s below Waner. The oWAR is an advantage to Winfield.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Doom – Except Mosc seems to be taking the WAR numbers at face value and still concluding that Winfield was better. For reasons that I don’t begin to understand, he seems to be very anti-Waner.

As for Winfeld having an oWAR adavantage, it’s only an advantage of 2.0 oWAR, hardly meaningful. And he also has a 1,500 PA advantage that needs to be taken into account as well.

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Sorry I was unclear. The main reasons I would take Winfield over Waner are the following WAR corrections:

1) Winfield’s defense was better than RFIELD thinks it was. +Winfield
2) Winfield should get full credit for a 1989 season robbed of him by Steinbrenner’s neurosis. +Winfield
3) Winfield played mostly in the 70s and 80s which I consider pre-steroid. +nobody
4) Waner played pre-integration MLB. -Waner

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Also a small deduction for Waner’s RBAT during 1941-1945. He was a below league average player ’38-’40 who had 24 RBAT during WWII. Not a ton, but some.

David P
David P
9 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

My response to Mosc @86/87 1) Prove that Winfield’s defense was better than Rfield says it was. And do it using emperical evidence. 🙂 2) HUH? Winfield missed the ’89 season due to back surgery following a herniated disc. Did Steinbrenner’s neurosis cause Winfield to herniate a disc? 3) Right, they both played pre-steroid so??? 4) Yeah, Waner played pre-integration. Not really something under his control. If you want to take it into account, that’s your choice but it’s not a WAR issue. Wondering though…do you make similar negative adjustments for guys like Ferrel and Hartnett? 5) We’ve been through… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  Doug

So that critera penalizes arod because… he was so good they called him up at 18? Babe Ruth should have skipped his pitching career in favor or more seasoning in the minors as an outfielder? More to the point, Waner’s 4 WAR and 125 OPS+ ages 23-34 are matched by far more than 2 other guys discounting younger years played. Injury is the reason most all-time greats fail that threshold like Bonds 1999, Ruth 1925, or Robinson 1968 but Gehring, Aaron, and several others no doubt match those bars. If anything, it references how healthy Waner was until age 34… Read more »

mosc
mosc
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Sorry, I just detest statistics based on Rookie status or really anything to do with being ineligible for what a player has already accomplished. Age based stats are bad enough but it’s such a common perspective on career arc that it makes too much sense to ignore.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
9 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I’ve always felt that Waner was overrated, but not to the degree mosc suggests. At the time Waner played, the stronger minor leagues were treated much more seriously than minor leagues are today, and Waner’s career start – in ML terms – was delayed while he enjoyed a spectacular three-year pre-career in the very strong Pacific Coast League. Today, he would surely have been brought up two years earlier. Not quite as profound an effect as the minors had on Lefty Grove’s career, but still significant, and something of a balance to the effect of playing during the segregated era… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

Interestingly, I found an old newspaper article with a Paul Waner quote where he claims that the stories of his on-field alcoholism were a bit oversold: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1665&dat=19651006&id=HS5PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OiMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5402,2577748&hl=en He admits to occasionally taking a drink before heading to the ballpark, but never taking the hooch with him to the stadium. Of course, that could just be an older, more somber (and sober, I would imagine) Waner trying to make peace with his former sins and fast living and papering over the truth with some late-in-life revisionism. And there’s no doubt that Waner was a serious alcoholic; everyone from his brother to… Read more »

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
9 years ago

Evans, Lyons, Tiant

Paul E
Paul E
9 years ago

Waner, Winfield, Cuyler

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

Waner, Terry (because of the 254 hits and a .400 BA season) and Nettles.

Have we ever excluded anyone who managed to hit .400 in a season?

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Not yet, but only Ted Williams has preceded Terry in the retrogression of birth years.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Just to put that 1930 National League season in perspective: Even with a .400+ batting average Terry was 5th in on-base percentage. There were 10 guys in the National League alone who had at least 206 hits that season, including one with 250. The league as a whole batted .303. Terry’s OPS+ of 158 for the year was lower than 15 players and within 5 points of another 15- for their entire careers. And just 1 year prior Lefty O’Doul batted .398 and also had 254 hits. But having grown up in the 60’s I know what you mean about… Read more »

T-Bone
T-Bone
9 years ago

Reuschel, Edmonds, Cone

David P
David P
9 years ago

Terry’s an interesting candidate. I didn’t vote for him but if the players I did vote for appear to be safe, I may consider changing for him.

His overall WAR is modest (54.2) but he did it in only 7108 PAs. He was also a player manager, hand-picked by the great John McGraw to be his successor. In his 4 full seasons as player-manager, the Giants won 90+ games every time, 2 NL pennants, and 1 WS.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

Early returns, through 21 ballots (#64):

11 – Waner
===============================50% (11)
===============================25% (6)
5 – Edmonds, Goslin
4 – Campanella, Terry
3 – Brown, Hartnett, Killebrew, Lyons, Minoso, Nettles, Reuschel, Tiant, Winfield
===============================10% (3)
2 – Cone
1 – Cuyler, Eckersley, Evans, Ferrell, Sewell

20 players have received votes this round.

Darien
9 years ago

Waner, Killebrew, and Eckersley. And an honorable mention to Pie Traynor, who: I know, but still. Pie.

no statistician but
no statistician but
9 years ago
Reply to  Darien

Wouldn’t Pie Baker and Home Run Traynor make more sense?

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Waner 40.8
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Cone 39.1
Edmonds 38.0
Tiant 37.5
Nettles 35.7
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Lyons 33.3
Killebrew 33.0
Terry 32.4
Goslin 31.7
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Hartnett 30.3
Cuyler 25.1
Sewell 23.4
Campanella 19.2
Traynor 14.7

2 things I learned in researching this round: Hartnett was nicknamed Old Tomato Face and both syllables in Hazen Cuyler’s nickname rhyme with the first syllable of his last name.

Brown, Waner, Eckersley

Kahuna Tuna
Kahuna Tuna
9 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Cuyler’s nickname lost some of its charm for me when I realized he got it because of his stuttering.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
9 years ago
Reply to  Kahuna Tuna

…and I’ve learned something else. In that era, it seems like there wasn’t much of a chance everyone would know him as Hazen. Or Shirley.

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago
Reply to  Kahuna Tuna

Nicknames in baseball during the 20’s & especially the 30’s could get pretty nasty. Bill James had a section on it in TNBJHBA. Stinky Davis, Blimp Hayes & Phelps, Losing Pitcher Mulcahy, Fat Freddie Fitzsimmons, Fatty Fothergill, Jumbo Brown, Dim Dom Dallessandro, Goober Zuber, Twinkletoes Selkirk, Darkie Clift and, as Bryan already mentioned, Old Tomato Face are just a partial listing of them. Different era I suppose but it does seem kind of odd that they put up with it when just a few decades prior to that guys were getting into fist fights just because someone was whistling or… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
9 years ago

Wes Ferrell, Graig Nettles, Kevin Brown

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
9 years ago

This is unusually late for me to be joining the party, but here goes:

Kevin Brown
Luis Tiant
Paul Waner

donburgh
donburgh
9 years ago

Reuschel, Waner, and Eckersley

Kirk
Kirk
9 years ago

Waner, Minoso and Reuschel

Hartvig
Hartvig
9 years ago

Campanella, Lyons, Ferrell

MikeD
MikeD
9 years ago

Killebrew
Nettles
Terry

RonG
RonG
9 years ago

Campanella, Evans, Hartnett

J.R.
J.R.
9 years ago

Killebrew, Cone, Traynor.

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago

21 players have now received votes this round. Don’t know if that’s a record, if not it’s probably close. Totals through 31 ballots (#94): 16 – Waner ===============================50% (16) ===============================25% (8) 6 – Brown, Campanella, Killebrew 5 – Edmonds, Goslin, Nettles, Reuschel, Terry 4 – Eckersley, Hartnett, Lyons, Minoso, Tiant ===============================10% (4) 3 – Cone, Ferrell, Winfield 2 – Evans 1 – Cuyler, Sewell, Traynor No point in indicating who’s on the bubble, since everyone is except for Waner, Campanella, and Killebrew. I’m a little surprised by the support for Bill Terry – to me he doesn’t seem significantly better… Read more »

Joseph
Joseph
9 years ago

For me, Bill Terry is superficially impressive because he had a .401 season with 254 hits–still third all time best. Plus his six, 200-hit seasons. And .341 lifetime BA. I don’t think Hernandez has anything near as impressive at first look. Also, he has more gray ink than Hernandez. Hernandez has more WAR, yes, but he also had three more seasons/1400 more plate appearances within which to accumulate that WAR. Don’t get me wrong–I’m not saying that Terry was better than Hernandez–I’m just saying that on the surface, there is more to be impressed with. Maybe that’s not enough to… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
9 years ago
Reply to  Joseph

Thanks for your thoughts. Just as counterpoint, not to try to argue you out of your vote – If you translate Hernandez’ 1979 season to the 1930 NL, his slash line would be .383/.461/.572, with 239 H, 79 XBH, which is pretty darn close to Terry’s actual performance (.401/.452/.619, 254 H, 77 XBH). Coincidentally enough, they posted identical WAR for their 1979/1930 seasons (7.6), the best mark of their careers for both. Put another way, Terry’s round number accomplishments – 200+ hits, .400 BA – are in significant part a consequence of the offensive environment of his time, and thus… Read more »

CursedClevelander
CursedClevelander
9 years ago

A superficial glance at Cuyler’s record makes me think he was born about 15 years too late; he certainly looks like a deadball-type player (a lot of doubles, more triples than HRs), but he started his career right as the HR was becoming king. As for Terry, I think he’s a perfectly fine choice for the HoF (his 6 year prime from 1927-1932 is superb in any era, with a 145 OPS+ and 35 bWAR), but I agree with David Horwich that it’s hard to say he’s any better than a guy like Hernandez. I’d rank him a bit higher… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Vote:

Dennis Eckersley
Wes Ferrell
Joe Sewell

opal611
opal611
9 years ago

For the 1898 election, I’m voting for:
-Dennis Eckersley
-Dave Winfield
-Paul Waner

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Edmonds
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Nettles
-Lyons
-Goslin
-Cone
-Evans

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
9 years ago

All-Red Sox to keep ’em on the COG ballot (though Cone not known for the RS part of his career):

– Dwight Evans
– Luis Tiant
– David Cone

So we’ve got ‘Dewey’, ‘Louie’, and ??, well I guess I can’t come up with a 3rd one that rhymes…

aweb
aweb
9 years ago

Brown
Waner
Killebrew

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

Carlos Marmol signed a minor league contract today. I noticed his second season was credited 3.0 WAR in 69 innings pitched. With one save. The runaway leader in least innings pitched and 3+ WAR, while not being the ‘closer’ (less than 5 Saves): Steve Mingori. With a spectacular effort on an otherwise poor 1971 Cleveland team. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mingost01.shtml Good luck to Marmol and the Naps 45 years later. ______________________ IP / WAR / SV 56.2 .. 3.3 .. 4 … Mingori 66.2 .. 4.0 .. 1 … David Robertson 68.1 .. 3.0 .. 2 … Chuck McElroy 69.1 .. 3.2 ..… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
9 years ago

One more on Marmol.
In 2010, … 138 strikeouts and one home run allowed.

Most SO, one home run or less allowed (live ball era):

138/1 … Marmol
130/1 … Mariano Rivera
109/0 … Wade Davis
106/1 … Aroldis Chapman
104/0 … Terry Forster
73/0 …. Dave Smith
72/0 …. Allan Sotheron