Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #8 Part 1

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This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility. This part one of our eighth “redemption round” (we’ve been holding such redemption rounds interspersed among the regular voting rounds every tenth voting round or so) gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates who have previously fallen off the regular induction ballots.

In this vote you may include on your three-man ballot any major league baseball player who was born between 1946 and 1970 and has not been elected to the Circle of Greats and is not currently on the 1899 COG ballot (there will be a redemption vote next week for players born between 1899 and 1945). As usual, you must vote for three and only three players to cast a qualifying ballot. The two players who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of COG voting. If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds to be held from time to time.

There are many players who are eligible for your votes in this redemption round. As an optional aid to your selection process, I’ve put together two lists, one for pitchers and one for everyday players, that include some stats for a substantial selection of relevant players: Redemption Round 8 Part 1 Optional Hitter List and Redemption Round 8 Part 1 Optional Pitcher List. Both lists show the players who accumulated at least 25 Wins Above Replacement (baseball-reference version), ordered by WAR. Again, these spreadsheets represent entirely discretionary lists — your full options are as stated: all major leaguers born between 1946 and 1970 who have not been inducted into the COG and are not on the 1899 ballot that is also the subject of a vote this week.

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Sunday night, May 3rd at 11:59PM EDT. You can change your votes until 11:59PM EDT on Friday night, May 1st. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG Redemption Round 8 Part 1 Vote Tally.

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mosc

9 years ago

I have nobody on this ballot above the cutoff line. Cone and Randolph are close but I think we’ve been through this pile of players enough. Nobody here is better than Nettles or Reuschel.

I abstain.

J.R.

9 years ago

Because I can… Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, and David Cone.

bstar

9 years ago

Doug

Is there any way you can put WAA in the tables next to the players’ WAR totals?

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

One more thing, Doug: Hoyt Wilhelm isn’t on the Pitchers list.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

He wasn’t born between 1946 and 1970.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

If we ever do this process again we should pick an earlier split line than 1946. It doesn’t make that much sense anymore.

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Good suggestion.

I will add WAA.

brp

9 years ago

Willie Randolph
Buddy Bell
Dave Stieb

David P

9 years ago

Randolph, Bell, Edmonds

Chris C

9 years ago

Will Clark, David Cone, Mark McGwire

David Horwich

9 years ago

Keith Hernandez, Mark McGwire, Ted Simmons

I agree with mosc @1 that this group has been pretty well picked over by now (and yet I’m voting anyway).

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I think the prewar redemption will be much more interesting. The only postwar HOFer we passed on above 51 WAR (the Puckett line) is Dawson at 64.5, and the other 50+ WAR postwar options are not very compelling.

robbs

9 years ago

Bell Evans Randolph

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to robbs

DWIGHT Evans, I presume? I’m going to count it that way, unless I hear otherwise. Doug is the official tally-er, and I have no idea how he’s going to do it.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to robbs

Yes, please confirm which Evans you intended to vote for.

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Cone, Palmiero, Dawson Cone was a strikeout machine (2668 SO in only 2898 IP) and a big game pitcher with 61.7 WAR, a step above the remaining hurlers. Palmiero reached 3020 hits and 569 HR in a long career (chemicals likely upped the HR totals from the mid-90’s, but the 3000 hits seem pretty evenly distributed and indicate a superior hitter to me – not like the McGwire cartoon character). Dawson adds a rare speed element to production and raw power (2774 hits, 438 HR, and 314 SB – only Bonds, Mays, and A-Rod top 2500 hits, 400 HR, and… Read more »

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Forgot that Sal Bando, Willie Davis, and Tommy John are other notables gained on the list going back to 1940 above also.

By the next redemption, we’ll have had 100 rounds to chew on candidates, so recent players to redeem may have cycled a few times anyway.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Like others, there’s no one on this list that gets me really excited but if we’re going to vote them back onto the ballot I think we should be sure that it’s the best qualified of the bunch just in case the highly unlikely happens and they get voted in. Bell, Dawson, Cone I actually (slightly) prefer Bell to Nettles. I think there are more deserving than either but also that neither would be an awful choice. Hope this posts. I’m still not seeing my vote or a separate comment I made on the 1899 election article. I tried cleaning… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Vote:

David Cone
Rich Gossage
Mark McGwire
_____________

koma

9 years ago

Dwight Gooden, Mark McGwire, Kevin Brown

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to koma

Kevin Brown is still on the regular ballot. You’ll have to switch that vote to someone else.

David P

9 years ago

I’m going to put a plug in for Jim Edmonds who I think is being criminally underrated. I know he “only” has 60.3 WAR via BR, but how confident are we in that number? I personally have very little confidence in it. Fangraphs for example has him at 64.5 WAR, higher than both Duke Snider (63.5) and Kenny Lofton (62.5), two centerfielders we’ve already elcted. Baseball Prospectus also has Edmonds (70.7) as superior to both Snider (64.8) and Lofton (56.4), by a much wider margin. So only Baseball Reference considers Edmonds as inferior to Snider and Lofton. Except it wasn’t… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to David P

You’ve convinced me.

My vote is for Edmonds, Randolph, and Evans. And if you hadn’t posted, my vote would have been for Cone instead of Edmonds.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Thanks Joseph! Glad to know that someone reads the drivel that I write!!! 🙂

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Again, I say: I’m going to assume for my own purposes that you mean DWIGHT rather than DARRELL Evans. I’m going to assume this because that’s the one who has, traditionally, received more support. But it’s best if, when voting for one of the two, voters would disambiguate.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Yes, Dwight Evans. Thank you.

oneblankspace

9 years ago

The vote tally sheet is asking me to login to google before it will let me see it.

My votes for the redemption round:

Darrell Evans, the 21st player to hit 400 career homeruns
Jim Edmonds, whose diving catch helped put the Cardinals in the World Series in 2004 (the first time in 17 years)
Bret Saberhagen, the youngest starting pitcher to win 2 games in the World Series

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Everyone should be able to see the tally sheet now.

Paul E

9 years ago

Bobby Bonds
Ted Simmons
Cesar Cedeno

JEV

9 years ago

Sheffield, Stieb, Kent

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jim Eisenreich

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

Eisenreich is a great guy. I have Tourette’s Syndrome, and my dad flagged him down before Game 4 of the 1997 WS. He came and gabbed with me for a few minutes and gave me a signed ball, even though I was decked out head to toe in Tribe gear. Hated to see the Marlins beat my Tribe, but glad he at least got a ring out of it.

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

That’s a great story. I’m glad you had the ability to meet someone who you were able to look up to, and I’m glad he was so cool.

opal611

9 years ago

For Redemption Round 8-Part 1, I’m voting for:

-Mark McGwire
-Willie Randolph
-Jim Edmonds

Darien

9 years ago

Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa, and Goose Gossage.

9 years ago

Willie Randolph, Dwight Evans, Mark McGwire

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Andre Dawson
Dave Stieb
Gary Sheffield

I feel strongly that Stieb and Sheffield did not get a fair shot their first time(s) around. Dawson is simply someone I’d like to revisit.

Stephen

9 years ago

Keith Hernandez, David Cone, Orel Hershiser

Joseph

9 years ago

I’m finding it odd that I am reluctant to vote for the 500 plus homer guys from the PED era. The use of PED’s by players doesn’t outrage me. I’m guessing that if I had been faced with the situation of having to compete with other players who were using, and knowing I could extend my career by a few years and make millions more–well, I’ve never cheated in my career as a lawyer–but if I were a ballplayer, it would have been a huge temptation. I think my reluctance is that I’m trying to make some adjustments for the… Read more »

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

On the topic of Sosa, I remember a while ago I found a fascinating old article about Slammin Sammy as a minor leaguer. It was from 1989, and it was posted on the blog miscbaseball: https://miscbaseball.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/sammy-sosa-in-the-minor-leagues/ So many amusing tidbits in this story, some of them hilarious in hindsight. Sosa discusses Rickey Henderson being his baseball idol, and his coaches believed he had the potential to be a Henderson-type leadoff hitter. But they were worried that he didn’t try to hit line drives, that he was trying too hard to be a power hitter even though his HR numbers were… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Interesting article, Cursed. It’s hard for me to judge somebody as a “bad person,” who came from this background just because he cheated at a baseball games: >>>Sammy Sosa doesn’t miss anything about his home in San Pedro de Macoris in the Dominican Republic. In March, he left the three-room house with no indoor plumbing that he shared with nine other family members. He left desperately hoping to find a future. Having dropped out of school in the seventh grade to work 12 hours a day in a shoe factory, Sosa’s only chance is baseball. <<< Using PEDs probably enabled… Read more »

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Indeed Joseph, I’m not really an advocate for or against Sosa, just think it’s an interesting article. It’s also good to remember that not only was Sosa once considered a very toolsy prospect, he was also a very toolsy player in his pre-60 HR days; a well-above average glove, originally in CF before shifting to RF, a very good arm (often racking up double digit OF assists) and a solid base-runner, a guy with 30+ steals in multiple years who usually graded as above average on the basepaths. Also agreed on moral judgments. I don’t have any ill will towards… Read more »

Andy

9 years ago

David Cone, Dwight Evans, Jim Edmonds

robbs

9 years ago

Joseph

Interesting to read a lawyer trained to know both sides of an issue thoughts and struggles with the PED issue. I won’t rehash the issue as I’ve read better posts here by people who know more about it. I know the HOF is independent, but couldn’t MLB solve the issue now that Bud Selig (statue of him looking the other way is underway in Cooperstown) is gone? Couldn’t they say that player X is banned from baseball but player Y is not, and have an up or down vote on un-banned players of the PED era.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Dan Quisenberry, Ted Simmons, David Cone

Steven

9 years ago

Ted Simmons. Keith Hernandez. Jim Edmonds.

RonG

9 years ago

Dwight Evans, Ron Guidry, Ted Simmons

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

McGwire, Saberhagen, Cone

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Cone, Gossage, Randolph.

9 years ago

Steib, Edmonds, Dwight Evans

Shard

9 years ago

Cey – Hernandez – Stieb

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

A quick update, but only posting results for those with multiple votes:

10 – David Cone
7 – Jim Edmonds, Willie Randolph
6 – Dwight Evans*, Mark McGwire
5 – Ted Simmons, Dave Stieb
4 – Buddy Bell, Keith Hernandez
3 – Andre Dawson, Rich Gossage
2 – Rafael Palmeiro, Bret Saberhagen, Gary Sheffield

* I acknowledge the possibility that two votes for “Evans” could have been for DARRELL Evans, in which case Dewey goes down to four votes and Darrell appears on the list, with 3.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I should have mentioned that I didn’t include koma’s ballot (@17) at all, because he included Kevin Brown as one of his three players, and Kevin Brown is still in the current round of COG voting. If he comes back to correct his ballot, McGwire would move into a tie for second.

brent

9 years ago

To honor the recently deceased Francis George, I will vote for Edmonds, McGwire and Simmons.

Kirk

9 years ago

Palmeiro, Sosa and Dw. Evans

Might be more interesting to be voting for who you wanted eliminated from all future redemption rounds.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Rafael Palmeiro, Keith Hernandez, Andre Dawson

BillH

9 years ago

Palmeiro, Mattingly, Dawson

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Comparing the steroid first basemen: McGwire: 62 WAR, 16 yrs, 1874 G, 6187 AB, 1167 R, 1626 H, 252 2B, 583 HR, 1414 RBI, 1317 BB, 1596 SO, .263 BA, .394 OBP, .588 SLG, .982 OPS Palmiero: 71 WAR, 20 yrs, 2831 G, 10472 AB, 1663 R, 3020 H, 585 2B, 569 HR, 1835 RBI, 1353 BB, 1348 SO, .288 BA, .371 OBP, .515 SLG, .885 OPS HR numbers similar, but McGwire did it in far fewer at-bats. McGwire has the advantage in RBI rate also, and leads significantly in slugging and OPS as well. Both have similar numbers for… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Not too long ago I created a spreadsheet to calculate percentage of baserunners driven in by a player. It’s for a minimum of 6200 career PA in the searchable era. I did not count PA in which the batter walked with baserunners aboard unless the bases were loaded. McGwire drove in 20.3% of baserunners, compared to 18.4% for Palmeiro.

T Jay

9 years ago

McGwire, Simba Simmons, and Edmonds (convinced by David P.!).

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Jack Morris, Al Oliver, and Darrell Evans

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

There’s been a bit of shake-up here, so I’ll post some new results (now posting 3+ votes only):

10 – David Cone
9 – Jim Edmonds
8 – Mark McGwire
7 – Dwight Evans, Willie Randolph, Ted Simmons
5 – Andre Dawson, Keith Hernandez, Rafael Palmeiro, Dave Stieb
4 – Buddy Bell
3 – Rich Gossage

jajacob

9 years ago

dwight evans, palmeiro, cone

Jeff B

9 years ago

Dawson, Hernandez, Simmons

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Jim Edmonds, Bret Saberhagen, Dwight Evans

Kirk

9 years ago

Rueschel, Minoso and Goslin

Author

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Kirk

Kirk, I will assume this is a vote for the 1899 ballot, and record it there.

Mike G.

9 years ago

Cone, Simmons, McGwire

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

12 – David Cone
10 – Jim Edmonds
9 – Dwight Evans, Mark McGwire, Ted Simmons
7 – Willie Randolph
6 – Andre Dawson, Keith Hernandez, Rafael Palmeiro

Anyone else hoping there’s only one more ballot cast, and it goes for Evans, McGwire, and Simmons, giving us a four-way tie for second and putting FIVE new players on the ballot? Because I think that would certainly make things interesting…

Chris C

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I’m guessing that would create a runoff round and not five new guys on the ballot.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Chris C

Runoffs, as I understand it, are only done for the actual elections. Last time there was a tie in a redemption round, both players were admitted to the ballot.

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Reply to Chris C

5 new guys would certainly push strategic voting to the limit… but no one could say there were too few options.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Chris C

I thought the agreed upon way to handle ties in runoffs or redemption was to remove ballots in reverse order until the tie is resolved.

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Vote change:

Cone, Palmiero, Dawson to
Cone, Palmiero, Edmonds

Beginning to re-think Edmonds based on David P.’s @19 that perhaps he is being underrated by WAR. He is certainly close to that top-10 area (of eligible centerfielders) with only 60 WAR, and did not get a very long look the first time.

Not sure any of these candidates can get enough traction to actually get elected, but I’m OK with getting more debate on him.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Dave Humbert

Cool Dave Humbert! Honestly, I think it’s an issue with WAR that doesn’t get discussed much. Many voters just look at BR WAR and take it as gospel truth. And I’m just as guilty of doing that as anyone. But there’s no way to know what someone’s “true” WAR is. We have various estimates (BR; Fangraphs, and Baseball Prospectus). And they’re subject to revision at any time. I tend to think of WAR as similar to intelligence/IQ. We have various ways of measuring it, but no way to know which method (if any) is correct. Chances are, they all hold… Read more »

Teddy BBQ

9 years ago

My vote is for Stieb & Dawson

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Teddy BBQ

I don’t recall this name, so welcome to the voting Teddy BBQ! (If you’ve voted before and I don’t remember, then shame on me.)

You do need three names on your ballot for it to be counted, so please come back and add another!

Brendan Bingham

9 years ago

Willie Randolph, Dwight Evans, Ted Simmons