Circle of Greats: 1970 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 82nd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1970. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Although we’ve been primarily going step-by-step back in time with our birth-year voting, once every real-world year we jump forward in time. One of the Circle of Greats rules is that no inductee can be younger than 44 years old upon induction, and with the turn of the calendar to 2015, all players born in 1970 can now meet that criterion. So we can safely jump forward to add players this round who were born in 1970.

The new group of 1970-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1970-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, January 18, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, January 16.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1970 Vote Tally . I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1970 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The eighteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1970 birth-year guys (including 26 pitchers!) are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Luke Appling (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dizzy Dean (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
David Cone (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Don Drysdale (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1970, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jim Thome
Royce Clayton
Jim Edmonds
Craig Counsell
Mark Grudzielanek
Javy Lopez
John Mabry
Kelly Stinnett
Denny Hocking
Mike Matheny
Alberto Castillo
Ricky Gutierrez
Quinton McCracken
Doug Mirabelli
Bobby Higginson
Luis Lopez
Brook Fordyce

Pitchers (born in 1970, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Darren Oliver
Eddie Guardado
Alan Embree
Steve Trachsel
Aaron Sele
Ron Villone
Wilson Alvarez
Paul Byrd
Jon Lieber
Dan Miceli
Kirk Rueter
Rick Helling
Tanyon Sturtze
Mark Wohlers
Steve Avery
Matt Herges
Pat Mahomes
Tom Martin
Jim Mecir
Ricardo Rincon
Paul Shuey
Mike DeJean
Joey Eischen
Chad Fox
Joey Hamilton
Bobby Jones

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Joseph

9 years ago

Nettles, Killebrew, and Thome.

Doug

9 years ago

This round’s tidbits. 1. Jim Thome and Alex Rodriguez were the principals on 8-21-2011 in the only AL game with two players who had then hit 600 career home runs. Thome’s 6 seasons with 40 HR, 100 RBI and 100 walks trails only Babe Ruth and Barry Bonds. Thome is the only player to post those totals for 3 different teams. Who are the four others to do so for two teams? 2. Darren Oliver’s five World Series games aged 40 or older are the most by a pitcher. Which three pitchers share the record for the most such appearances… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug, this is the most impressive thing I’ve ever seen. You must’ve been working on this for a LONG time to have it up so soon after this post opened up. Kudos to you, sir, for always having these fun trivia things, but especially this round! Now, to take some low-hanging fruit (as is my wont): Eddie Guardado: The Twins’/Senators’ leader in GF is Rick Aguilera (434). Joe Nathan is second (394), and Guardado is third (258). Jim Edmonds: I’m really confused by this question. Ray Lankford had 3 seasons of 5+ WAR (consecutively, even – 1996-1998), and he’s the… Read more »

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

All correct except for the Higginson question. Horton played for several clubs at the end of his career, especially Seattle where he had a “last hurrah” type season at age 36 with career best RBI (106) and second best HR (29) while playing every game, the *only* 25/100 season by a player that old playing every game.

The answer to the question was a teammate of Horton’s.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Is it Mickey Stanley?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Stanley is the one, with 17.3 WAR in 5477 PA.

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Quiz: 40/100/100. McGwire, Giambi, Sheffield, Foxx. It’s an oddly counterintuitive question, or better, a counterintuitive answer. I expected free agents. But three of the four (McGwire, Sheffield, Foxx) were traded by the first team that they did it for to the second team they did it for. Thome was traded from the second team to the third.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

That’s it.

Good observation about the UFAs. Looking through the list of 40/100/100 seasons, besides Thome, only these players had that season (or seasons) for a team they joined initially as a UFA.
– Carlos Pena
– David Ortiz
– Barry Bonds
– Rafael Palmeiro

bells

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I – I don’t even know how to take this information in to try and answer it… I can’t imagine what it must have taken to put it together. I usually avoid making pointless posts, but this one is just to bow down in awe.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bells

Thanks bells,

Just something I enjoy. So many players I know nothing or very little about. So, a way to learn a little bit about them.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Now that I have recovered from Doug’s impressive post, here is what I believe is the answer to the Luis Lopez question: Neifi Perez

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Perez is the one.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Mike Matheny question: Roger Bresnahan

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It is Roger, who actually caught 200+ games for the Giants and Cards, and also for the Cubs.

Bresnahan actually debuted on the mound for the NL Senators in 1897; went 4-0 in 41 IP (5 starts) with 3 CG and a shutout. Not bad for an 18 year-old.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Denny Hocking question: Dick Williams is one of the two.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Indeed he is.

Clue for the other one is he won a batting championship.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Looks like it was Debs Garms.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

Garms (1940), Nap Lajoie (1902), Bubbles Hargrave (1926), Ernie Lombardi (1942) and Bill Madlock (1981) are (I think) the only batting champions since 1901 with fewer than 400 PA.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Pat Mahomes: I would guess Jimmy Haynes. I remember looking at some “bad” numbers a while back and Haynes always seemed to come out on … top.

Brook Fordyce: Yadier Molina is one answer.

Mark Wohlers: New HOFer John Smoltz had one save too many in 2001.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Pat Mahomes: Not quite sure of it but I’ll say Mike Torrez.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Torrez is correct.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Mark Grudzielanek question: Ivy Olson and Jimmy Johnston back in the 1920s.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Those are the two.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Aaron Sele question: Dwight Gooden.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

It is Gooden, who is head and shoulders above everyone else over the first two seasons of a career. Rk Player ERA+ IP From To Age G GS CG SHO W L W-L% BB SO ERA FIP Tm 1 Dwight Gooden 176 494.2 1984 1985 19-20 66 66 23 11 41 13 .759 142 544 2.00 1.93 NYM 2 Cy Blanton 158 262.1 1934 1935 25-26 36 31 23 4 18 14 .563 59 147 2.61 2.84 PIT 3 Mark Fidrych 156 331.1 1976 1977 21-22 42 40 31 5 25 13 .658 65 139 2.47 2.99 DET 4 Mark… Read more »

bells

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Amazing how many ‘flameouts’ there are in that list. I know it’s been an obvious development in baseball discussion in recent years (even decades)of protecting early pitchers but that chart is somewhat sobering. Even guys like Drysdale who were successful to the point of HoF careers fell off a cliff relatively early… very few (Moose, Drysdale, Oswalt) had enough years of goodness to make even close to a HoF case. Washington better have their fingers crossed for Roark…

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Alan Embree question: Sparkly Lyle had 16 consecutive seasons with at least one win, one loss, twenty games pitched, and no starts.

Tanyon Sturtze question: Two Mets pitchers. Roger Craig, 1963, went 5-22 (.185 W-L%) while pitching 236 innings. Jerry Koosman, was 3-15 (.167 W-L%) in 1978 over 235 1/3 innings.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Absolutely correct.

Lyle’s 16 seasons were his entire career. Embree’s 15 years were his whole career save for a 4-game September call-up three years earlier, as a starter.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Kelly Stinnett question: Smoky Burgess

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It is Smoky in 1956-57, when he slugged .518!

I checked how many HR he hit as a pinch-hitter and he still qualifies based on the HR he hit as a catcher.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Kirk Rueter question: Eldon Auker

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Auker is the one. He finished his career with 45 more IP than Reuter. Their SO/BB for their last 3 seasons: Auker 0.75, Reuter 0.76.

Auker was a great storyteller on Ken Burns’ “Baseball” documentary.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Paul Shuey question: Rafael Betancourt (with the Rockies) and Bob Wickman (with the Brewers).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Those are the two.

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Joey Eischen question: Yorkis Perez.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

There’s someone earlier than Perez (like Eischen, he played for the Expos).

Scary Tuna

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Now I see how I missed Steve Frey. I found the eight retired pitchers you mentioned with over 300 games and less than 300 IP. Then I chose the one who retired first: Yorkis Perez. That would have been a fine answer…just to a different question than the one you asked. ;o) By screening for pitchers with fewer than 300 career innings, I inadvertently eliminated Steve Frey, who – with his 304 career IP in 314 games – was the first pitcher to retire averaging less than one IP per appearance in a career of 300+ games. I enjoy your… Read more »

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Scary Tuna

Glad to hear you enjoy them, Scary.

Thanks for playing along.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Rick Helling question: Andy Pettitte

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Richard: Who was the last Yankee before Pettitte to end his career with a complete game?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

I’ll take a guess. Mike Mussina. If I’m wrong I’ll have to look it up. I have a question for you. For the Mabry question do you mean that the player played 125 games at each of those 4 positions and all in the AL?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Not Mussina. You’ll be amazed how far back you have to go.

Re: Mabry. Just 125 games at those positions, total. Then find the player indicated among that group.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Is the answer to the Mabry question Tomas Perez?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

No, not Perez.

It’s 125 games at each of 1B, 3B, LF and RF.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

If I have done my search correctly it was Ivy Andrews on Sept. 28, 1938. I was 20 days old at the time but I have no recollection of it. 🙂
Andrews’ name was an answer your prior quiz.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I found the same result.

Last Yankee before Pettitte to end career with CG and a win – a 24 year-old named Charlie Devens in 1934, going 11 innings!

Never would have guessed it was so rare.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Alberto Castillo question: Mike Ryan

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Ryan is the one. He trails only Bill Bergen in career PA with BA under .200.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Matt Herges question: Frank Funk. He achieved his 11 win season in his second year but according to BR he exceeded his rookie season in that same year.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

status, not season.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Funk is our man.

Hard to figure how he never made it back to the majors after 1963, his age 27 season. Each of his four ML seasons was a good one. His SO/9 in his last campaign was down but in limited innings – maybe that was it.

Anyway, he stuck around in the minors for four more years with his SO/9 returning to his norm and his BB/9 markedly improved. But his H/9 shot up quite a bit with a resulting increase in his ERA. Probably what kept him down on the farm.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Remaining quiz answers. Refer to post 2 above for questions.

2. Jim Kaat, John Franco, Larry Andersen
5. Granny Hamner
6. Dal Maxvill
7. Tom Glavine
12. Steve Arlin, Brian Lawrence
14. Ryan Vogelsong, Joe Blanton
16. Denny Walling
18. Edwin Jackson
19. Bobo Newsom
23. Bill Carrigan
25. Robinson Cano
28. Ivan deJesus
29. Heathcliff Slocumb, Danys Baez
31. Larry Sherry, Rob Dibble, Scott Eyre
32. Calvin Schiraldi
33. Hoyt Wilhelm
38. Hal Newhouser
39. Steve Rogers
40. Rob Murphy
41. Yadier Molina, A.J. Pierzynski, Carlos Ruiz
42. Steve Frey
43. Edinson Volquez

Ajnrules

9 years ago

Jim Thome
David Cone
Rick Reuschel

David Horwich

9 years ago

The ten position players on the holdover list form a perfect lineup, with one extra outfielder:

C – Campanella
1B – Murray
2B – Alomar
SS – Appling
3B – Nettles
LF – Minoso
CF – Ashburn
RF – Evans or Winfield
DH – Killebrew

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

That’s elegant spotting, David. You’ve also got Ferrell and Drysdale to pinch-hit if necessary, plus five other starting pitchers and a closer.

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

That’s quite a powerful all-COG-borderline team.

JEV

9 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Drysdale

koma

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Jim Thome

Francisco

9 years ago

Kevin Brown, Luis Tiant, Harmon Killebrew

JamesS

9 years ago

Thome, Alomar, Murray

RonG

9 years ago

Alomar, Evans, Dean

Danny Boy

9 years ago

Cone
Murray
Thome

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Killebrew, Eck, Ferrell.

Why is everyone’s name always in bold EXCEPT Eck?

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

Not sure how Eck ended up without the bolding, but it’s fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out. It was not intended as an editorial comment.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

My ballot, when I get to it will NOT include an honorary vote for Craig Counsell, in spite of the fact that, as a fellow suburban Milwaukeean (he’s from Whitefish Bay; I lived in neighboring Glendale from age 5-18), I share a great affinity for Counsell. Plus, he’s part of two of my favorite all-time personal baseball memories: One time, I saw Craig Counsell pushing his kid around in a stroller about noon on a gameday. I waved and said “hi.” He said “hi” back. This was in July or August of 2007. But my favorite Counsell memory was this.… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Wonderful story, thanks!

Most b-ref WAR in NL History by an Age 34 Second Baseman:
1. Eddie Stanky (1950) 8.1
2. Jeff Kent (2002) 7.0
3. Red Schoendienst (1954) 5.7
4. Craig Counsell (2005) 5.5
5. Jim Gilliam (1963) 5.2

Paul E

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

B-Ref WAR, 2B Age 27 – 33 1 Rogers Hornsby 62.7 1923 1929 2 Joe Morgan 59.1 1971 1977 3 Nap Lajoie 50.3 1902 1908 4 Eddie Collins 46.5 1914 1920 5 Chase Utley 44.9 2006 2012 6 Charlie Gehringer 43.8 1930 1936 7 Jackie Robinson 43.7 1947 1952 8 Craig Biggio 41.5 1993 1999 9 Ben Zobrist 38.3 2008 2014 It’s probably not a stretch to say that Jackie Robinson would move up to 3rd or 4th on this list if he had played in MLB in 1946 at age 27. On another note, I may have stated a… Read more »

9 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Baseball-Reference uses DRS for the last ten years or so and Total Zone for seasons before that. DRS seems to be more prone to giving extreme values than TZ. Take historical comparisons with a grain of salt.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Over his career, 1995-2011, the ratio of Counsell’s SLG to his OBP was just under 1.01. Over that period of years, the only player with more PAs and at least that low a SLG/OBP ratio was Luis Castillo.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Speaking of Counsell, the new players on the ballot provided lots of agony to Cleveland fans. 1) Counsell – His sac fly for the Marlins in the bottom of the 9th tied up game 7 of the ’97 World Series. He later scored the series winning run in the bottom of the 11th. 2) Ricardo Rincon – The Indians acquired him straight up for Brain Giles. Because, you know, any time you can give up a young, power-hitting outfielder in exchange for a middle reliever, you gotta do it. 🙁 3) Jim Thome – Former fan favorite who during his… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Also Steve Avery (who was only 7-13 with a 91 ERA+ on the season) holding the Tribe to an Albert Belle solo shot to win game 4 of the ’95 WS and give the visiting Braves a 3-1 stranglehold.

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Great story, Dr. I spent a brief few months not long ago working and living in suburban Milwaukee, in the somewhat less tony part of town over west in Menomonee Falls. Don’t get me started about the company I was working for, but I liked the city, and was a big fan of Karl’s country market (smoked german sausages). I had them ship me 5 lbs of landjaeger one time until I found somewhere to get good stuff here. I always liked Counsell as a ballplayer. Somehow he turned that one tool and being one-step ahead of a utility infield… Read more »

Steven

9 years ago

Appling, Ashburn, Minoso

PaulE

9 years ago

Thome, Winfield, Appling

KalineCountry Ron

9 years ago

Killebrew
Thome
Winfield

donburgh

9 years ago

Murray, Reuschel, Winfield

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Jim Thome
Luke Appling
Rick Reuschel

And how did Tanyon Sturtze and Joey Hamilton get to be 44 years old? I’m still waiting for them to be arbitration eligible.

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Brown, Tiant, Thome

Andy

9 years ago

Killer
Alomar
Appling

TJay

9 years ago

Thome, Edmonds, Winfield.

bells

9 years ago

This is a fascinating ballot, for a few reasons. First, after something like 40-odd elections in the past year going back and back in time, it’s somewhat jarring to get living, 44-year-old players, when I’ve been preparing for 1906ers, some of whom died before these guys were born. Second, it’s very interesting in terms of competitive balance – I’ve been curious since I took a sneak peak at the 1970 class last year how Thome and Edmonds would hold up on a CoG ballot. Third, since there’s been a lot on Killebrew and his almost-elections lately, the direct comp of… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Plate Appearances per Win Above Average

This is for the season ending closest to 7000 PA.
(for a clearer comparison of the 8000 PA guys vs the 10000+ PA players:

PaWaa7000:
192.1 … Jim Edmonds
223.6 … Bill Dickey (last week’s winner)
224.5 … Graig Nettles
224.9 … Jim Thome
236.2 … Eddie Murray
237.4 … Minnie Minoso
254.4 … Harmon Killebrew
259.0 … Richie Ashburn
264.7 … Dwight Evans
287.0 … Roberto Alomar
288.6 … Dave Winfield
295.6 … Luke Appling (Appling gets better with age)
512.7 … Javy Lopez (5793)
2740.0 … Mark Grudzielanek

bells

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

EDMONDS leads that stat? Now that is surprising to me.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to bells

Yep. 8000, too:

PaWaa 8000:
228.6 … Jim Edmonds (7980)
235.6 … Jim Thome
245.4 … Graig Nettles
245.5 … Luke Appling
250.5 … Eddie Murray
257.1 … Roberto Alomar
263.8 … Dwight Evans
270.8 … Harmon Killebrew
296.9 … Richie Ashburn
314.6 … Dave Winfield

Notable: Appling just gets better…

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Campanella, Dean, Thome.

mosc

9 years ago

I’m not voting anytime soon. Too many candidates. Guys I have above the Murray/Reuschel line of induction -Ferrell (5.51) -Drysdale (5.01) -Appling (4.92, more with a service correction) -Nettles (4.86) -Thome (4.83) -Campanella (3.25, catcher and negro league adjustments) My line Murray (4.64) and Reuschel (4.86) The rest I have below with Kevin Brown (5.19) getting a negative steroids adjustment and Edmonds barely out (4.58) I’m somewhat worried about keeping Campanella, Nettles, and Ferrell on the ballot and I think Ferrell simply peaked much higher (11.0 WAR in 1935) than anybody else, I think I have him slightly ahead of… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

mosc, can we get a refresher as to the method that creates these numbers?

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Yes, so the basic principle is an average of averages which weights peak against career as Dr Doom and I have been preaching. I picked a 25 year “memory”, roughly lining up with about as long as anybody’s positive WAR career. The best year is N=1. Using Killebrew as an example that’s 1967 with 6.4 WAR. His best two consecutive years are 1966+1967 which is an average of 6.15 WAR. 3 years is 65-67 for 5.53 WAR. I continue this through 25 years and then average those averages: Best N Start Total Avg 1 1967 6.4 6.4 2 1966 12.3… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Sub nyearparser() Dim sh As Worksheet Set sh = ActiveSheet ‘inputs sh.Cells(1, 1) = “Year” sh.Cells(1, 2) = “WAR” startrow = 2 startyear = sh.Cells(startrow, 1) npeak = 25 ‘the number of years to evalute. Less favors peak, more favors career totals Dim nbest(1 To 25) As String ‘second number must be npeak Dim nyear(1 To 25) As String ‘second number must be npeak Dim nnormal(1 To 25) As String ‘second number must be npeak ‘outputs sh.Cells(1, 5) = “Total” sh.Cells(1, 6) = “Avg” sh.Cells(1, 4) = “Start” sh.Cells(1, 3) = “Best N” sh.Cells(1, 7) = “Normalized” ‘starting comparison values… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

mosc: It’s also possible to derive that data purely by spreadsheet analysis. I did it and my numbers for Killibrew matched yours.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

For an example of just how peak heavy this method is, Here’s mike trout: Best N Start Total Avg Normalized 1 2012 10.8 10.8 10.8 2 2012 19.7 9.85 9.85 3 2012 27.6 9.2 9.2 4 2011 28.3 7.075 7.075 5 2011 28.3 5.66 5.66 6 2011 28.3 4.716666667 4.716666667 7 2011 28.3 4.042857143 4.042857143 8 2011 28.3 3.5375 3.5375 9 2011 28.3 3.144444444 3.144444444 10 2011 28.3 2.83 2.83 11 2011 28.3 2.572727273 2.572727273 12 2011 28.3 2.358333333 2.358333333 13 2011 28.3 2.176923077 2.176923077 14 2011 28.3 2.021428571 2.021428571 15 2011 28.3 1.886666667 1.886666667 16 2011 28.3 1.76875 1.76875… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

Continuing my campaigning for Nettles. He probably has more WAR than whoever you’re planning on voting for. Check it out. 68 WAR total over his career. More than all but a few players on this list. During the 70’s, he was fourth in WAR for the decade (more than his Yankee teammate Reggie Jackson, btw), second in dWAR (ahead of B. Robinson, BTW–Belanger was first), and sixth in HR. 390 career HRs–only a few 3B ahead of him. For those of you critical of his batting average: In the 1970’s it was tough to hit for power and average. In… Read more »

latefortheparty

9 years ago

I need to revise my ballot:

Luke Appling
Jim Thome
Graig Nettles

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to latefortheparty

Yay! A great revision. 🙂

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Reply to latefortheparty

Revision: Nettles, Campanella, Thome. Sorry Dizzy.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

(Innings Pitched per Win Above Average) IpWaa: 73.5 … (1969) Dizzy Dean 80.3 … (3256) Kevin Brown 81.4 … (2899) David Cone 93.1 … (3548) Rick Reuschel 101.0 … (3486) Luis Tiant 107.4 … (3286) Dennis Eckersley 110.1 … (2621) Wes Ferrell 120.0 … (3432) Don Drysdale ______ IpWaa 1500: 70.4 … Dizzy Dean 72.8 … Rick Reuschel 76.6 … Wes Ferrell 88.8 … Dennis Eckersley 89.6 … Don Drysdale 90.4 … Luis Tiant 98.1 … David Cone 168.7 … Kevin Brown IpWaa 2000: 67.1 … David Cone 71.9 … Rick Reuschel 73.2 … Wes Ferrell 73.9 … Dizzy Dean… Read more »

opal611

9 years ago

For the 1970 election, I’m voting for:
-Dave Winfield
-Eddie Murray
-Jim Thome

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Alomar
-Appling
-Eckersley
-Killebrew
-Brown
-Reuschel
-Tiant
-Cone
-Evans
-Nettles
-Ashburn
-Drysdale
-Edmonds

Andy

9 years ago

Thome, Edmonds, Appling

BryanM

9 years ago

Three infielders for me — nettles, appling, robbie alomar

Darien

9 years ago

Thome, Killebrew, and Dean.

And a big shout-out to Eddie Guardado, who I really wish I could justify voting for, but cannot. 🙂

9 years ago

Thome, Killer, Eck

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Time to vote!

I don’t know how to separate a few of the pitchers (Tiant, Reuschel, Cone, Drysdale, Ferrell). The closer I look, the more similar THEY look. Given that, I’ll give my third slot to the guy I just helped redeem. Therefore, here’s my ballot:

Luke Appling
Kevin Brown
Don Drysdale

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

A vote update, through me @57 (the 25th vote): 15 (60%) – Jim Thome 9 (36%) – Harmon Killebrew 8 (32%) – Luke Appling 5 (20%) – Dave Winfield 4 (16%) – Roberto Alomar, Eddie Murray, Graig Nettles 3 (12%) – Kevin Brown, David Cone, Dizzy Dean, Dennis Eckersley 2 (8%) – Roy Campanella, Don Drysdale, Jim Edmonds, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant 1 (4%) – Richie Ashburn, Dwight Evans, Wes Ferrell, Minnie Minoso Edmonds was the last player named on a ballot. He was named on the 17th ballot cast. That means that we had all 20 of the top… Read more »

9 years ago

Luke Appling, Jim Thome, Rick Reuschel

Chris C

9 years ago

I don’t know how to play this. I think I’ve previously voted for seven players on the holdover ballot, there are at least another five I’d be willing to vote for, and Thome and Edmonds deserve consideration too. Usually I’m one of the first to vote but I might put this off for a few days and play my vote strategically instead.

David P

9 years ago

43 new players on the ballot and none of them ever finished higher than 4th in MVP voting (Thome and Edmonds) or Cy Young voting (Lieber).

J.R.

9 years ago

Killebrew, Cone, Drysdale

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Alomar, Ashburn, Minoso

Shard

9 years ago

Roberto Alomar – Richie Ashburn – Dizzy Dean

9 years ago

Ashburn Reuschel Thome

cursedclevelander

9 years ago

Okay, I’ll go my normal route: Best position player, best pitcher, and personal favorite. So:

Best position player: Graig Nettles

Best pitcher: Oof, this is hard, but I’ll go Luis Tiant (just edging out Reuschel, Cone, Brown and others)

Personal favorite: Thome

So: Nettles, Tiant, Thome

T-Bone

9 years ago

Reuschel, Thome,Cone

Hartvig

9 years ago

I think Thome belongs in the Circle of Greats. I am far less certain about Killebrew. But I am totally mystified by their both having more votes than Appling. Most of the guys that I’m certain of or at least leaning towards are on the bubble and I’m not sure that there’s anything that I can do to keep them from falling off when 1903 rolls around. I’m going with 2 of the guys that I’m certain belong that aren’t on the bubble (to keep them there) and a pick ’em for #3. Appling, Campanera, Ferrell I may be back… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I’m with you Hartvig. I think Appling is clearly the best player on the ballot). At the end of the day, I guess it’s not just chicks that dig the long ball….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKAJIvQRSzE

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

There’s a combination of reasons at work here. I think there’s a good chance that Appling is barely more than a name to many of the younger voters, for instance, whereas Thome is barely retired, and his 600+ HRs gives his candidacy a lot of heft. The first problem may be due to the fact that Appling played for a franchise that was dismal for much of his career and nothing more than respectable in its better seasons. Everyone knows the famous Yankees and Tigers of his generation, but his image in many people’s minds is faint. He’s Ernie Banks… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

I suspect you’re right NSB. At the same time, I would be one of the people who knows a lot more about Thome than Appling. But I can also easily look at the numbers. So while they have a similar career WAR in a similar number of PAs, Appling lost nearly two full seasons to WWII, likely costing him about 8-10 WAR. He also has more 6+ WAR seasons (4 vs 2), 5+ WAR seasons (9 vs 5) and 4 WAR+ seasons (11 vs 9). In other words, Appling has more “great” seasons than Thome and would likely have a… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

9 years ago

And somehow Dizzy Dean looks like he’s going to survive this ballot. WTF?

his candidacy is all peak, and yet his *peak* is not as good as any of the other pitchers on this ballot. Some of our current choices had lot of fame/legend to them as well (Drysdale/Cone/Tiant). What is keeping this guy on the ballot? Somebody is going to be dropping off this round, and every single other holdover is way ahead of this guy by any reasonable measure.

Can a Dean voter please give some reasoning for why you think he belongs in this company?

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

I think it will remain a mystery. I’ve noticed that many/most (/all?) off the “Dean voters” are not the type of people who “hang out” here during the week. A lot of them seem to be the type to cast their weekly votes, then move on. Which, by the way, is TOTALLY FINE. I actually think it’s awesome that we have some people on this site who check it more-or-less daily, and some people who just stop by once in a while. But anyway, a lot of the Dean voters have not been part of the extended conversation. Your exact… Read more »

Dave Humbert

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Not sure either… my guess is nice peak, popular/famous, and HOF membership. The problem is the COG bar “should” be higher than the HOF bar, if the truly great are being recognized. There are some not-so-great players in the HOF and others who were great for short time frames. A limited group of 120-125 might be skewed toward those who were great for a longer period of time. We have selected Koufax already, who represents the great pitcher whose career was cut short. Greenberg lost time to WWII. Jackie Robinson lost time to segregation. There are not enough spots for… Read more »

Paul E

9 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

MS:
This is about the extent of any rationalization on behalf of Dean. WAR, age 22-27:

1 Walter Johnson 70.8 1910 1915
2 Robin Roberts 46.1 1949 1954
3 Christy Mathewson 45.6 1903 1908
4 Roger Clemens 44.4 1985 1990
5 Hal Newhouser 42.6 1943 1948
6 Nap Rucker 41.4 1907 1912
7 Bert Blyleven 41.3 1973 1978
8 Tom Seaver 41.1 1967 1972
9 Dave Stieb 38.8 1980 1985
10 Dizzy Dean 38.0 1932 1937

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Paul E

As to Stieb, I wonder if Dave (or Nap Rucker for that matter) had a World Series comparable to Dean’s in 1934 he’d be thought of more the way Dean is. Of course Dizzy was also a very popular personality for decades, but I’m guessing that if the Cardinals had missed the 1934 Series, or if Dizzy had gone 0-2 that Series instead of winning Games 1 and 7, the historical perception of him would have been much different.

PaulE

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I imagine this will upset some people but, unlike Koufax, Dizzy Dean was never mediocre when healthy. Hall of Famer? CoG? Of course not, but a legend is a legend….He had a six year peak-probably not enough to justify all the love.Certainly the WS had a lot to do with all the fuss.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I think we might be forgetting that Dean paired his ’34 WS performance with being the best player in the league during the regular season. There might be some sort of multiplicative effect at work when a player does that. It’s a relatively rare accomplishment when you think about it. Basically, combine Clayton Kershaw’s regular season last year with Mad Bum’s rubber-arm exploits in the postseason, add a personality that charmed a nation, and that was Dizzy Dean in 1934. He may not be the best COG candidate but his fame was earned. ______ They didn’t start handing out World… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

The only other thing I can think of with Dean is the bizarre nature of his stats. From 1934-1936, his record was 70-32. That’s insane, unforgettable, and prone to make one think of him in that way. The five straight years leading the league in Ks doesn’t hurt either. He’s memorable, he’s a “name” player (and has been for 70 years, which means many of us could have heard our GRANDFATHERS talk about the legend of Dizzy Dean). I get how, at a cursory look, one could THINK he belonged… but any serious examination of his statistics indicates his unworthiness… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

There’s only 1 player on this ballot who has an 11.0 WAR season (I believe the only one 9.5+). It’s of course Wes Ferrell in 1935. He hit .347/.427/.533/.960 and appeared 34 times WITHOUT pitching. That’s on top of a league leading 322.1 IP that year with a 134 ERA+. His career batting line was .280/.351/.446/.797 in 1345 PA’s with 38 HR. The guy’s peak is exceptional and his career WAR over 60. Cmon guys, take a look.

bells

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Ferrell is for sure my #1 “I’ll switch my vote to him if it seems like he needs it” guy.

billh

9 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Winfield

Steve

9 years ago

Dizzy Dean, Harmon Killebrew; and Roy Campanella George had it right Winfield was Mr. May and deserves a spot not

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Ferrell, Nettles, Drysdale

The 1970 ballot came at an inconvenient time.

aweb

9 years ago

Appling
Thome
Brown