Circle of Greats: 1906 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 83nd round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1906. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1906-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1906-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Wednesday, January 28, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Monday January 26.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1906 Vote Tally . I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1906 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The eighteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1906 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Luke Appling (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
David Cone (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Don Drysdale (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Jim Edmonds (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1906, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Joe Cronin
Joe Kuhel
Lloyd Waner
Jackie Hayes
Shanty Hogan
Woody English
Lyn Lary
Gus Suhr
Randy Moore
Rip Radcliff

Pitchers (born in 1906, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Si Johnson
Tommy Bridges
Willis Hudlin
Thornton Lee
Dick Coffman
Paul Derringer
Hank Johnson
Art Herring

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Joseph

9 years ago

As part of my blatant over the top campaign for Nettles, I am now willing to trade votes. You vote for mine, I’ll vote for yours. He probably has more WAR than whoever you’re planning on voting for. Check it out. 68 WAR total over his career. More than all but a few players on this list. During the 70’s, he was fourth in WAR for the decade (more than his Yankee teammate Reggie Jackson, btw), second in dWAR (ahead of B. Robinson, BTW–Belanger was first), and sixth in HR. 390 career HRs–only a few 3B ahead of him. For… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Nettles, Buddy Bell, Sal Bando and Ken Boyer are all third basemen from the 1960s to 1980s who racked up career WAR between 60 and 70 and none of whom, I think it’s fair to say, were really widely thought of as quite up to the level of HOF-likely in their playing days. This has long led me to wonder who had or has it wrong — writers and fans of that era as they evaluated the third basemen of their time, or the current WAR calculations for the third basemen of that period?

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

All great players you listed, no doubt–but neither Bell, Boyer, nor Bando had anywhere close to 390 HRs.

At the time he retired, 1988, 390 HRs was 24th all time–a number which has since made made somewhat diminished by the use of PEDs. I think everybody in that pre-1988 top 25 list is in the HOF, but for Nettles and Kingmen.

By the way, those HRs also put him at number four all time for players with more than 80% of their games at 3B, behind only Schmidt, Matthews, and Beltre.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

It’s kind of an odd 390 homers, though. Of the 137 guys in MLB history with at least 300 homers, Nettles has the very lowest SLG at .421, and the second-lowest OPS at .750 (ahead of only Gary Gaetti, who had 360 homers and a .741 OPS). Nettles does a little better with OPS+, where he has the ninth lowest OPS+ number of the 137 guys with 300 homers or more (he’s also 9th lowest among the 86 guys with between 300 and 400 homers). I’m not necessarily disagreeing with the idea that there’s a good argument that Nettles belongs… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Among the four third basemen I mentioned above, the OPS+ numbers are Bando 119, Boyer 116, Nettles 110, Bell 109.

Mike

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew
Dennis Eckerskey
Luke Appling

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Rip Radcliff…

The first few paragraphs of this article are about a short-lived rule that prohibited the last year’s Pennant winner from making trades:

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/c0f81271

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Plate Appearances per Win Above Average This is through both 7000 PA and 8000 PA. PaWaa7000: 192.1 … Jim Edmonds 224.5 … Graig Nettles 224.9 … Jim Thome (last week’s winner) 236.2 … Eddie Murray 237.4 … Minnie Minoso 240.9 … Joe Cronin 254.4 … Harmon Killebrew 259.0 … Richie Ashburn 264.7 … Dwight Evans 287.0 … Roberto Alomar 288.6 … Dave Winfield 295.6 … Luke Appling (Appling gets better with age) 2860.0 .. Little Poison ______ PaWaa 8000: 228.6 … Jim Edmonds (7980) 235.6 … Jim Thome 245.4 … Graig Nettles 245.5 … Luke Appling 246.8 … Joe Cronin… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we have three rounds to clean up the backlog. In the next four rounds (inclusive of this one), there’re only TWO strong candidates coming on – Joe Cronin and Red Ruffing. That means we have four rounds to pare down the backlog a bit before we get to 1903, which has an argument as 1931’s equal (or perhaps better!) for the round with the largest number of high-quality COG candidates (Gehrig, Gehringer, P Waner, Cochrane, and Hubbell). That means we have the backlog, Cronin, and Ruffing, and only four spots for them before things start getting… Read more »

Jeff H

9 years ago

Brown, Tiant, Alomar

bells

9 years ago

I’ve been thinking alot about Satchel Paige after a conversation many rounds ago about his eligibility. I think he should be in the CoG, and I think he should be eligible. He didn’t have 20 WAR in the majors, nor did he play ten seasons (although he played 5 seasons after debuting as a 41-year-old rookie). But the fact that he had a major league career makes it hard to vote this round without thinking of the fact that this is his birth year. We have debated the merits of compensation or punishment for various things, such as park adjustment… Read more »

Darien

9 years ago

Reply to bells

I am as down on making special exceptions to the rules as I was when last we discussed it. The rules have been stable since we began this game, and that’s as it should be — ten or more seasons played or twenty or more WAR is required for consideration. I’ll grant that it’s not outside the realm of possibility that Paige could have met either or both of those requirements had circumstances been different, but the historical fact remains that circumstances were *not* different, and Paige does *not* meet the requirements. I see no basis for making a special… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Darien

I second what Darien said. And I’m completely unaware of prior special exceptions being made in the redemption round. Has this actually happened?

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to David P

I have in the past taken the position that in a redemption round you can vote for anyone who has played in the majors and whose birth year fits within the parameters of a redemption round. That way if there really is strong support among voters to consider an “exception” to the 10 season/20 WAR rule there is an avenue to get such a player on to the main ballot. But I continue to take the view that the COG is intended as an experiment in seeing how HHS voters value a cohort of players comparable to the group the… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Of course, to play devil’s advocate, we’ve already elected Mariano Rivera, who will not be considered by the BBWAA for many years. Why make THAT exception, and not the other? Frankly, it doesn’t make one iota of difference to me. It’s not like Satchel Paige needs the COG to validate his claims to being a great player; he’s better than a number of COGers, whether he’s in or not. That said, I understand and empathize with those who’d like to see his inclusion. If he’s on a ballot, he’ll absolutely have my vote. If he’s not, he won’t. And no… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Dr D @22 –

The same is true of Thome and Griffey, but all three of them *will* be considered by the BBWAA when their respective times come, so it’s not really comparable to the Negro Leaguers in that regard.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

What Horwich said.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Yeah, this: “I would welcome an additional process that would add players whose main accomplishments were in the Negro Leagues to the Circle, but in a way that would be consistent with our over-arching experiment.”

bells

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I’m with Dr. D’s last paragraph @22 there. Ultimately it doesn’t make that much of a difference to me if he’s included or not, he will have been the same player regardless. I just have a particularly soft spot for Satchel and do think that his case is quite singular in terms of making an exception. I guess I don’t see it as Darien puts is as ‘changing the rules whenever’, since this is a very particular exception, but maybe he has some other possible exceptions in mind that this would be opening the door to. If so, I’m curious… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

bells @66 –

Paige was indeed the first Negro League player elected, albeit not by a few years. The first Negro League committee’s selections were:

1971 Paige
1972 Gibson, Leonard
1973 Irvin
1974 Bell
1975 Johnson
1976 Charleston
1977 Dihihgo, Lloyd

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

@41 & 48 Yes, it’s true that the BBWAA WILL consider those players. However, we voted on Teddy Higuera (among others), who did not have 10 years of service time in MLB; we considered Willie Davis, who had 20 years of MLB service time and DESERVED to be considered, but never appeared on the ballot. The BBWAA did not consider either of those players. Perhaps it doesn’t matter that we considered Teddy Higuera, since he got no support from us and would’ve gotten none from the BBWAA. Perhaps it doesn’t matter that we considered Willie Davis, since he didn’t get… Read more »

David P

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Bells – The BBWAA wouldn’t have considered Paige directly (or other Negro league stars) because they didn’t play 10 year in the majors.

The original idea was to have a separate “Negro wing” in the Hall but the idea was dropped about sufficient backlash.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Dr. Doom @71. This particular byway of the discussion is probably getting way too far off on a technical tangent, but: –In my view, Willie Davis was considered by the BBWAA process. Just because he didn’t make that first cut nominating process to be included on a final ballot doesn’t mean he wasn’t considered. –Yes, Higuera and others who met the 20+ WAR standard have been on our “eligible for the ballot” lists. I did accede to the concerns of some commenters early on that we should have an exception for the 20+ WAR guys who didn’t meet the 10-year… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to bells

@8, The main problem in considering Satchel Paige is “If Paige, why not ?? (EX: Oscar Charlton, Josh Gibson, etc…). We’ve considered NgL greats who lost considerable MLB playing time to the color line. But – they have met our 10 yrs/ 20 WAR threshold, such as Roy Campanella, Monty Irvin, and Don Newcombe. Paige unfortunately falls into an ‘in-between’ category, his MLB career at the very tail-end of his career being only 5 years (6 if you count his token game in 1965 for KC) and 10.3 WAR. I agree with several other people here who feel that we… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

There’s a reason slippery slopes are a type of logical fallacy. If we vote for Paige why not Charlston? If him, why not managers? If managers why not mascots? If mascots why not peanut vendors? If peanut vendors why not fans? It’s not logical to make arguments like this. We will draw the line in voting where we see fit as voters and that’s rather obvious.

bells

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Appreciate people’s thoughts here. Lawrence @78, I can see how folks can think that way, and that’s totally understandable. I just happen to draw my line at ‘he played in MLB, so it’s hard for me to ignore him, while it’s not nearly as hard for me to ignore someone like Charleston who never got the chance’. It’s really as simple as that for me, I don’t feel like being open to that makes me open to other things; like I said, he’s a special case for me. So yeah, I definitely don’t want to turn this into a casually… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to bells

I’m not surprised to read bells post, I’m just surprised I didn’t write it! Paige isn’t just a Negro league star. That’s not fair to him to say. He pitched very well in the MLB for his age. One of the best ever. How many guys have double digit WAR age 41+? Not many. Appling ironically is one of the most famous success stories for guys in their 40s contributing. His 1949 season is legendary but how much WAR did he accumulate 41+? 8.6. We’re talking Randy Johnson level “in your 40s” pitching here, and rate wise he accumulated more… Read more »

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Woody English had a .430 OBP for the 1930 Cubs, mostly batting 2nd (but sometimes lead-off). He and Kiki Cuyler both topped 150 runs thanks to Hack Wilson knocking them in all season. The 1930 Cubs are the only post-19th century team with two players over 150 runs (and Wilson was close to being a 3rd, with 146 of his own). Of course, without English’s .430 OBP and Cuyler’s .428, Wilson never gets a chance to set the RBI record, so it was a mutually beneficial relationship. And yet with all that, the Cubs didn’t even score the most runs… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

@10,

Using B-R’s ‘Neutralized Batting’ feature, Kiki Cuyler’s 1930 season goes from:

Actual 1930 Cubs (5.74 R/G) :
155 Runs, 134 RBI, .355 BA
to
Neutralized to the 2014 Cubs (4.07 R/G):
111 Runs, 100 RBI, .308 BA

That’s still excellent, but not nowhere as dominant as his actual 1930 line looks. Just another reminder that extreme run environments need to be adjusted accordingly.

Paul E

9 years ago

Alomar, Appling, Winfield

Darien

9 years ago

Killebrew, Eckersley, and Cronin.

9 years ago

Cronin, Reuschel, Ashburn

Stephen

9 years ago

Killebrew, Cronin, Alomar

Doug

9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. 1. Joe Cronin’s 11 seasons of 30 doubles and 90 RBI trails only Stan Musial with 13, and Lou Gehrig and Albert Pujols with 12. Among shortstops, who has the second-highest total of such seasons? Miguel Tejada 2. Joe Kuhel scored 90 runs for the 1944 Senators despite fewer than 150 hits and ISO no better than .100. Who is the only Senator/Twin since with such a season? Roy Smalley 3. Lloyd Waner is the only HOF position player with negative WAA. Waner began his career as the only pre-expansion live ball era player with 150 games… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbits:

Joe Cronin, on 6-17-43, hit a PH home run in each game of a DH. They were both 3 run shots. Two days earlier he had hit another such HR. On 8-12-43 he hit another giving him 4 3-run PH HRs in less than 2 months.

Lloyd Waner, in 1943, had 234 PA without a SO,the most in such a season. The only other players with more than 100 PA in such a season are Bill Rariden with 108 PA and Johnny Sain with 104 PA.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Only others with searchable PH homers in both ends of a twinbill – Hal Breeden 7-10-73 – Tony Gonzalez 7-4-61 Many others have done so in consecutive team games, most recently by Dioner Navarro on Apr 12-13, 2013. Cronin is the only searchable player with four 3-run PH home runs in a season. The last player to do that three times in the same season was the Padres’ Archi Cianfrocco, with his 3 shots (a grannie and two 3-run blasts) coming in a 7-week period in 1995. Despite those heroics, Cianfrocco was mostly a bust as a pinch-hitter with no… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Rip Radcliff question: George Stone with 187 H in 1905.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Oops. Left out something in the question.

Should be only other player to lead the AL with 200+ hits in first season with the Browns.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Your low-hanging fruit specialist is here to take the easy ones! Tommy Bridges: Besides Bridges and Verlander, Mickey Lolich and Hal Newhouser led the AL in W, GS, and SO. Si Johnson: I’m going to say it was the 1962 Mets, with Al Jackson losing 20 and Roger Craig losing 24(!!!!!). Rip Radcliff: Heinie Manush also led the AL in hits in his first year with the Browns. Joe Cronin: Well, Hones Wagner had eight such seasons; I’m realizing as I type this that I didn’t actually check to see whether or not he was a SS all those years.… Read more »

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Lolich and Newhouser is correct, as is Heine Manush.

There is a more recent team than the ’62 Mets with two 20-game losers.

Three of Wagner’s 30/90 seasons were at positions other than SS. Ripken is not the answer either.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Joe Cronin question: Miguel Tejada

Tejada is also the the answer to the Lyn Lary question, along with Everett Scott.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Both correct, RC.

I’m guessing you used your own “enhanced” P-I to answer the second question.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Actually I used the BR PI. I had to do some manual searching. After I did my search I realized that Scott can be guessed. Most of know about his 1300+ consecutive game streak and that he was a SS. Then just check his BR home page to check his teams.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Right.

I didn’t know how many there would be (if any) so my method was more mechanical. Involved sorting spreadsheets to check for different teams in consecutive seasons of 150+ or 160+ games, and then checking whether those games were all of the games in that season.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Knowing ahead of time that there were only two players made my job much easier.

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

The answer to the Woody English question is Knoblauch, who did it in 1996. That’s a great what-if-sports season, IIRC.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Knoblauch is the one. But, you’ve lost me on the what-if angle?

Or, are you meaning what if the Twins hadn’t traded away Knoblauch?

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

There’s a website, whatifsports.com, where some leagues let you build a team on a budget using player-seasons from all of baseball history. Knoblauch’s 96 season was one of the best, because it gave you great hitting, speed and defense but was less expensive than the top notch years from Morgan and such because of the lack of HR power.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

That makes sense.

Thanks for enlightening me.

brp

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Oh man I haven’t played WIS in ages. Do you still play it? Is it still fun if so?

I actually was considering jumping back in during the lull between MLB & NFL seasons coming up here.

Gotta have fantasy sports fix, but I’m not so desperate as to watch basketball…

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

brp, haven’t played in ages, but I assume it would still be fun unless they’ve made big changes.

Actually, a lot of the old pitching seasonal records came from a league I created. I fabricated the worst possible offense, made everyone draft it, and then they had a budget on which to draft the greatest pitching staff possible. The offenses were so bad that you had guys with 400+ K seasons and ERA’s in the low 0.00’s. I wonder if those records have held up, or since been surpassed/scrubbed.

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

The team with two 20 game losers is the 1973 White Sox, with Wilbur Wood (24-20) and Stan Bahnsen (18-21). So they actually combined for a 42-41 record, and both had ERA+’s over 113.

That 1973 team also has the answer to another question, the Jackie Hayes one. Jorge Orta is the other White Sox 2B with multiple seasons of greater than 25 doubles and greater than 75 RBI.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Absolutely correct, CC.

BTW, are you a cursed Clevelander because the Indians pulled off the masterstroke of trading away CC?

CursedClevelander

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Nah, had this screen name since around 2003 on the old ESPN message boards. Didn’t even realize I would also be called CC.

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Answer to @14, the Hank Johnson question: Dennis Lamp, 1980, with an honorable mention shoutout to a pitcher named phil Huffman, who pitched for the expansion Blue Jays in 1979, had a record of 6-18, era of 5.77 in 179 IP, 11.4 h/9 innings, an era+ of 75, a K/BB ratio of .82 (not a typo) and a bWAR of -1.8. he then disappeared until a two game call up for baltimore in 1985. Fun fact for Huffman–his one shutout was a one hitter on August 27, 1979, http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TOR/TOR197908270.shtml.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Lamp’s 1980 season is indeed one with a shutout and an 11.5 H/9. But so are 35 other seasons since 1961 by 34 other pitchers. The trick is to find the one pitcher who did that twice. Thanks for the story on Huffman. His rookie season was indeed an odd one, with 31 starts, 11 of them quality starts and 12 disasters (more RA than IP), what I called a “Jekyll and Hyde” pitcher in a post I made here a long time ago. At least Huffman started off on the right foot, winning his first two decisions. Incidentally, 30… Read more »

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug, I’m missing something. 35 occurrences of pitchers with qualifying seasons? Or are we not discussing qualifying seasons?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Didn’t mention qualifying seasons, so no, that wasn’t a criterion.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

It was Blue Moon Odom.

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

yes, those are non-qualifying seasons. Lamp might be the only one to have done it in a qualifying season.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It was Odom, as a 19 year-old in 17 IP in 1964, and in 77 IP split between three clubs in his next-to-last season in 1975. Those 17 IP in 1964 came from 5 starts; Odom had an 84 game score in his shutout and an 88 total game score for his other 4 starts (ouch!).

The others to do this in a qualifying season since 1961 are Frank Baumann (1961), Rick Waits (1981), Larry Sorensen (1982) and Brian Anderson (2004).

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Joe Kuhel question: Roy Smalley

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Smalley is the one.

Since Kuhel’s season in 1944, there have been only 23 more with 90 runs on fewer than 150 hits and ISO of 0.1 or less. Most were in the 1945-49 and 1975-90 periods, including 4 times by Eddie Stanky and twice each for Snuffy Stirnweiss, Vince Coleman and Tom Goodwin.

Among these post-war seasons, the fewest hits were 121 by Omar Moreno in 1978, and the fewest walks were 42 by Rudy Law in 1983.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Lloyd Waner question: Chris Speier

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Speier is the one.

As Waner is the only pre-expansion player with 150 games in each of his first 3 seasons, Hideki Matsui is the only expansion era player with 160 games in his first 3 campaigns (and Eddie Murray is the only other player with 160 in his first two years).

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Paul Derringer question: Steve Rogers and Burt Hooton

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

Those two both finished with just under 2000 IP after their fourth seasons (Derringer had over 2500 more IP). Of the remaining 15 in the group (80 starts, 105 ERA+, under .450 W-L% in first 4 seasons), only two had 1000 more IP.

There are four currently active pitchers who make the group, one (Matt Cain) who has already passed 1000+ IP since his fourth season, another (Matt Garza) who should do it this year, and a third who is pitching well (Doug Fister). The fourth is Justin Masterson who, like Cain, struggled last year.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Thorton Lee question: Jim Colborn

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Randy Moore question: Lefty O’Doul with 143 OPS+ and 122 SO. He had almost as many HR as SO, 113.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Willis Hudlin question: Danny Darwin

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

All correct, quiz master Richard!

I’ve updated the original comment with the quiz answers.

JEV

9 years ago

Killebrew, Cronin, Campanella

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to JEV

Completely Consistent Capital Consonants.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Appling, improving with age… Shortstops, WAR Leaders, Age 20-24 38.6 … Alex Rod 34.3 … Arky 27.9 … Ripken 23.2 … Fregosi 20.1 … Travis Jackson … -0.6 … Luke Appling _____ Shortstops, Age 25-29 42.4 … Alex Rod 39.2 … Banks 31.4 … Boudreau 30.4 … Yount 30.2 … Trammell … 22.1 … in 20th Place – Appling _____ Shortstops, Age 30-34 48.2 … Honus 32.2 … Ozzie 28.5 … Wallace 27.4 … Fletcher 27.1 … Ripken … 22.5 … in 12th place – Appling _____ Shortstops, Age 35 – 39 32.0 … Honus 18.9 … Ozzie 17.3 …… Read more »

Andy

9 years ago

Appling, Edmonds, Cronin

KalineCountry Ron

9 years ago

Killebrew
Ashburn
Tommy Bridges

9 years ago

Luke Appling, Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown

Hartvig

9 years ago

Very deep crop of pretty talented newcomers but Cronin is the only one I feel is deserving of consideration for the COG. As of this moment he’s in my “in” column, but only by the thinnest of margins. But there are also 5 guys on the bubble who are in my “very possibly” column that I could still be convinced are more deserving. It appears that the new guy smell is giving Cronin all of the support he needs to stay on the ballot and possibly enough to even get off the bubble so for the moment I’m going to… Read more »

Brendan Bingham

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Priceless! “New guy smell” in reference to someone born 109 years ago! Thanks; you’ve made my night.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Alomar, Minoso, Ashburn

BillH

9 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Winfield

koma

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Winfield

Steven

9 years ago

Appling, Ashburn, Minoso

latefortheparty

9 years ago

Luke Appling
Graig Nettles
Joe Cronin

Steve

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Luke Appling

hub kid

9 years ago

Appling, Nettles, Evans

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Reply to hub kid

oops- that was me (for tabulating purposes)- I was rushing and missed the usual capitalization

David P

9 years ago

Same ballot as last time: Appling, Tiant, Evans

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Nettles, Cronin, Campanella.

aweb

9 years ago

Appling
Brown
Killebrew

Shard

9 years ago

Alomar – Ashburn – Murray

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Appling, Killebrew, Eck

Joseph

9 years ago

Nettles, Cone, Murray

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Appling 44.2
Brown 43.3
Reuschel 40.6
FerrellW 40.1
Thome 39.8
Cone 39.1
Edmonds 38.0
Tiant 37.5
Cronin 37.3
Alomar 37.1
Nettles 35.7
Drysdale 35.3
Evans 34.9
Eckersley 34.3
Ashburn 33.9
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Winfield 31.1
Minoso 30.6
Campanella 19.2

Cronin wouldn’t embarrass the circle, and Waner had those batting averages, but I’m going back to the usual three:

Appling, Brown, Eckersley

Luis Gomez

9 years ago

Alomar, Miñoso, Nettles. Mexican Pacific League Semifinals update: After splitting the first two games in Culiacan, Aguilas de Mexicali won back-to-back walkoff, extrainnings thrillers to put the series 3 to 1. They won game three, 2 to 1 in 10 innings and game four 3-2 in 14 innings. On game 5, Culiacan used 5 pitchers to blank the Eagles (Aguilas) 2-0. Former Padres farmhand Juan Oramas started the game and just allowed four hits in 5 innings. For the Aguilas, Red Sox minor leaguer Marco Duarte was even better, he gave up two hits in 5 innings. Game six was… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Luis Gomez

Total heartbreaker. Ouch. Sorry to hear about it. It sounds like an AMAZING series, though. When the dust settles and the pain fades away, I’m betting you’ll remember it for what it was: a highly competitive, very exciting series. But for now, you have my condolences!

Chris C

9 years ago

Cronin, Appling, Eckersley

brp

9 years ago

Cone
Edmonds
Nettles

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Wednesday AM update, through brp @84, the 29th vote: 15 (51.72%) – Luke Appling 9 (31.03%) – Harmon Killebrew 8 (27.59%) – Joe Cronin 7 (24.14%) – Roberto Alomar, Dennis Eckersley 6 (20.69%) – Graig Nettles 5 (17.24%) – Richie Ashburn, Kevin Brown 3 (10.34%) – Roy Campanella, Minnie Minoso, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield 2 (6.90%) – David Cone, Jim Edmonds, Dwight Evans, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant 1 (3.45%) – Tommy Bridges, Don Drysdale, Wes Ferrell Appling begins the week with a very strong showing, Cronin polls well as a ballot newcomer, and we continue to struggle to separate these… Read more »

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Appling and Cronin, despite being very different types of players, look superficially similar at first glance, the virtues of each corresponding to the lesser abilities of the other. Appling had one of the longer productive careers in baseball history. Cronin’s productive career consists of eleven years. Appling was a better fielder and baserunner, Cronin hit for more power. The fact that Cronin scored and drove in more runs, however, is in great measure attributable to the fact that he played on far better teams, teams that provided far more scoring opportunities and runners to drive in. Appling’s OBP is actually… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

If he’s the 16th best SS all time, he probably doesn’t belong in the COG. But Appling’s 9th best probably does. If we are just basing it on JAWS.

Maybe.

At least there would be 15 SS ahead of Cronin to consider.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Two of those ahead of Cronin we likely won’t consider for a while – A-Rod and Jeter. Three of those ahead of him we might not consider – still not quite sure which players will make the cut when it comes to 19th/20th century players, but Davis, Dahlen, and Wallace all rank ahead of him. He’s only a shade behind the 15th guy, Boudreau, and we already elected him. Every SS we have had a chance to elect ahead of him we have, except Appling (who is doing well in voting). The only other one, besides the 3 19th/20th century… Read more »

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

That’s really interesting about JAWS. Someday, when I have time, I’ll check our inductees against the Hall of Stats. I’d imagine a high correlation there, as well.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

OK, I couldn’t help myself.

I started looking at the HOS, and it’s WAY messier than what you’re describing with JAWS, according to how we’ve voted. So it seems JAWS is the better comp for our thinking. Good to know!

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

I’m guessing that many advanced stats will correlate well with our voting (particularly for position players) – straight up WAR probably does a pretty good job. I’m not sure if JAWS has any adjustments for time served in the military or for players who played on both sides of 1947. I think that is where the biggest discrepancies come in, though even then they are not huge discrepancies (Alomar being on the outside right now while Gordon is in, same with Greenberg and Murray – though the guys on the outside right now are only a spot or two ahead… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

It’s interesting to me that according to the way you describe this that SS is the deepest position talent wise. I would have guessed first base or an outfield position.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

One thing about JAWS is that they make no adjustment for pre-1893 pitchers so many modern pitchers will rank lower on their list than the do in the Hall of Stats (which does make adjustments) And one reason there are fewer high ranking players at first base is that a number of players who played a lot of first- like Ernie Banks, Rod Carew & Stan Musial- we more valuable during the time they spent at their original positions. Same thing- in reverse and to a lesser extent- goes in center field. A lot of guys started their careers there-… Read more »

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Hartvig – the issue with Koufax and Ford isn’t the pre-1893 guys (who we probably won’t vote on), but the guys like Saberhagen, Stieb, Sutton, Appier, Finley, Hershiser, Bucky Walters, Tommy John, Tanana, Wilburs Wood and Cooper – all of whom rank above Koufax. Toss in Langston and Gooden, both of whom (along with the others above plus more recent pitchers like Hudson, Santana, Sabathia, Pettitte, and Buehrle) rank above Ford. Drysdale, Kevin Brown, Reuschel, Tiant, and Ferrell are all closer to the borderline of the pitchers we have elected (that borderline being pitchers like Palmer, Marichal, and Feller –… Read more »

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Artie, if we were to just go on WAR, we wouldn’t have all that much to occupy ourselves with. Koufax had a tremendous, even historic, peak, and people mentally adjust because of early retirement due to injury. Ford has superior “traditional” stats, and WAR overcompensates (in my view) for his team’s defensive prowess, using metrics that are admittedly inexact. I wouldn’t say either is an inner circle HOF or COG. But I wouldn’t have much regret over voting for either of them over many of the pitchers on your list.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Mike L – my comment isn’t meant to say what’s right or wrong, only that it’s not the pre-1893 pitchers who are causing a “breakdown” between our voting and JAWS. Koufax and Ford, and possibly Smoltz though I think over time he’ll become the “bottom” of our list according to JAWS (by which I mean more pitchers between Marichal and him will be elected to the COG) are essentially the only two players who we have voted into the COG in spite of their JAWS rankings. I understand why they were voted in. And yet, through all the different ways… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

@157.
Sisler’ll get some love.
Darned sinusitis.

The two halves of Sisler’s Career:

4572 PA
47.9 WAR

4440 PA
6.6 WAR
_______

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Voomo – it wasn’t until I bought a book on great first basemen that I realized Sisler’s career had the two halves you mention. I used to think of him as one of those “got in on the gawdy numbers once the live ball era took off” guys (which is why I think he will have some issues collecting votes), but I view him much differently now. I wonder if he would look better if he retired after the illness/injury (however it is classified), much like Koufax did. Through age 29, Sisler (47.9) ranks 38th in career WAR among position… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Cronin has a nice peak. The nyear averaging method gives him a 4.91 score, higher than Thome. Over a 4 year period he averaged over 7 WAR, that’s pretty rare. Over 7, down to 5.6 WAR but holds 5 WAR all the way out to N=12. That gives him a pretty respectable peak. It scores Appling at 4.92 basically because he was able to average 4 WAR over 19 seasons but he does have a nice cluster of good years 1935-37 which helps support his case. That’s also not using any war correction for either guy. I typically think that… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Appling is one of 2 players with 3 qualifying seasons with a .300+ BA at age 40+. He is also the only player with at least 2 seasons of 150+ hits at age 40+.

David P

9 years ago

NSB – One thing many people don’t realize about Cronin is that he voluntarily stepped aside as the starting shortstop after the 1941 season. He was coming off a 138+, 5.1 WAR season so he could clearly still play. He was the team’s manager at the time, so he actually benched himself. The point being that he likely would have 70+ career WAR had he not decided to focus on managing.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Considering the year Pesky had, it looks like Cronin made the right move.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to David P

Aha! Didn’t know this about Cronin.

Player Manager for the Senators at age 26.
26!
And won the Pennant that very year, as a 7.2 WAR shortstop.

Stepped aside at age 35 for a 23 year old rookie named Johnny Pesky.
So at least it makes sense.
Pesky batted .331 and played D.

But! Pesky left for the War the following year (gone for 3).
Cronin does not take his job back.
He gives it to league-average Skeeter Newsome.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo: Your comment gives no indication that you’re aware of the companion fact: Bucky Harris at age 27 became the player-manager for the 1924 Senators, who won the pennant and the World Series. As a player, Harris wasn’t close to Cronin, but as a manager he worked the AL circuit until 1956, missing only 3 years, and made the HOF, more for longevity than performance, although his record was dragged down by two later stints with the Senators in their “First in War, First in peace, Last in the American League” incarnation. Interesting trivia about Joe Cronin: He married Clark… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Bring back the Player/Manager! WAR Leaders as Player/Manager (since 1897) This is for seasons in which they were Manager for a full year or the Majority of the year. Does not include, for example, Cy Young in 1907, when he managed for 6 games. And (among others like this) I’ve not included Tris Speaker’s 1919, when he managed only the last 61 games. 61.4 … Fred Clarke 51.6 … Lou Boudreau 47.2 … Tristam Speaker 40.6 … Joe Cronin 35.0 … Napoleon Lajoie 31.7 … Tyrus Cobb 29.2 … Rogers Hornsby (7 partial seasons as p/m) 27.1 … Jimmy Collins… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Appling, Murray, Cronin

Josh

9 years ago

Luke Appling, David Cone, and the great Paul Waner

wait, just realized…….that’s not Paul, that’s his subpar brother Lloyd……….CANCEL THAT

REAL VOTE: Luke Appling, David Cone, Joe Cronin

BryanM

9 years ago

appling, nettles and cronin

David P

9 years ago

I’ve been doing some reading about Joe Cronin and found some interesting things that I thought I’d share. 1) He’s the only person to hold each of the following 4 positions – player, manager, general manager, league president. He held each of these for 10+ years. 2) He’s the first person to play in the AL All Star game for two different teams. 3) He was directly or indirectly responsible for the Red Sox trading away Pee Wee Reese (I never knew that Reese was originally in the Red Sox organization). According to Wikipedia, Cronin knew he was scouting his… Read more »

Chris C

9 years ago

Reply to David P

I think Wikipedia has the Reese story wrong. Per Bill James New Historical Abstract (page 598)the story is that Tom Yawkey (Sox owner) purchased a minor league team (Louisville Cardinals)with two other guys. Yawkey bought the team because Reese was on the roster and figured he would get to keep Reese. However the other owners forced a sale of Reese to the highest bidder and Yawkey refused to bid for his own player so he went to the Dodgers. Reese was never considered Boston property because the minor leagues worked far differently back then.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Chris C

Thanks Chris C. I actually tracked down a newspaper article from 1940 that states the following: “The Red Sox did pass up Reese and let the Louisville Colonels sell him to the Dodgers for a fancy price. Tom Yawkey, owner of Boston, also has a one-third interest in Louisville and could have had Reese if he had exercised his option. But the Sox owner, told his partners at Louisville, Donnie Bush and Frank McKinney, to sell Reese. Cronin did advise against purchasing Reese – but not for the reason being rumored on the Southern circuit.” The article goes on to… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Chris C

I don’t think Bill James’ version of the Reese affair is correct. From everything I have read, Yawkey bought the team for the express purpose of getting Reese. The Sox sent Cronin to scout Pee Wee, and Reese made a couple of errors in the field that day. Cronin concluded that Pee Wee was too small and tiny to play SS in the majors, he convinced the team owner that his opinion was right, and Yawkey eventually sold the rights to Reese to the Dodgers for $35,000 and 4 players to be named later. Rob Neyer included this trade in… Read more »

RonG

9 years ago

Campanella, Minoso, Evans

TJay

9 years ago

Edmonds, Cronin, Winfield.

Danny Boy

9 years ago

Murray
Cone
Edmonds

oneblankspace

9 years ago

Appling to win
Minoso and Drysdale to show (up on the next ballot)

Doug

9 years ago

Reuschel, Tiant, Brown

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Ferrell, Drysdale, and Nettles

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

finally some Ferrell support!

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

He’s gone wild.

9 years ago

After we populate the COG, I vote to revote the MVP and Cy Young awards. I was looking at Chuck Knoblach’s 1996 campaign, and I saw that Juan Gonzalez won the MVP with a 3.6 WAR.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Mo

@120,

The 1996 AL MVP vote was a real shocker to me, as after about the All-Star break I just thought that it was _obvious_ that A-Rod was the clear MVP. By WAR, Gonzalez is 15th of 19, and Griffey just edges out A-Rod (he finished a somewhat distant 4th).

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

WAR didn’t exist in 1998. Neither did defensive stats, really.
A lot of guys had beastly years, and Juan’s counting stats were right up there.

And the MVP vote is as much about the narrative.
The Rangers were 3.5 games back on Sept 6th… and caught the Angels.

And they sealed the deal by beating them Anaheim five times in a row. Gonzales contributed in all five games.

And in September:
.384 / .426 / .687 / 1.113

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

The 47 HR and 144 RBI looked pretty good too.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

’96 was also the Rangers’ first postseason appearance, after over 30 years of existence. I remember that being part of the MVP narrative for Gonzalez as well.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

@123,

There were plenty of people at the time who thought that giving Juan Gonzalez the AL MVP over A-Rod was a terrible decision. Even though WAR hadn’t been created yet, there were still many people using more advanced statistical methods (‘sabremetrics’) of baseball analysis than mainstream stats, and they explained in detail why he was a poor choice for MVP.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

@123,

There were plenty of people at the time who thought that giving Juan Gonzalez the AL MVP over A-Rod was a terrible decision. Even though WAR hadn’t been created yet, there were still many people using more advanced statistical methods (‘sabermetrics’) of baseball analysis than mainstream stats, and they explained in detail why he was a poor choice for MVP.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo: We’re talking about 1996, not 1998. In 1996 Gonzalez’s 47 HR/144 RBI did not stand out that much because there were a total of 5 AL players with 140+ RBI and 8 with 40 + HR. His low WAR is due to a relatively low number of batting runs which is due to a low value of wOBA which in turn is due to a low number of BB. Also in terms of fielding runs he was near the bottom of the league.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Ah.
That’s different.
The Rangers led the division the whole season.
Juan was 5th in WAR on his own team.
And here’s his September slash:

.245 / .272 / .473 / .745

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Juan Gone also only played 134 games that year. That’s the type of games played number from an MVP that you would expect from a catcher or a guy who was just dominating the league that year. Here’s the position-player MVPs with under 140 games played (non-strike years) since 1980:

2010 Hamilton — 133 G, 8.7 WAR
2009 Mauer — 138 G, 7.8 WAR
2003 Bonds — 130 G, 9.2 WAR
1990 Rickey — 136 G, 9.9 WAR
1980 Brett — 117 G, 9.4 WAR

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I don’t know how to work the play index to check this out, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find that a significant percent of the position player MVPs in the last 50 or 60 years:

1. Were on a division winning team; AND

2. Led the team in HRs, RBI, or both.

I would guess at least 30-40 percent.

Gonzalez was that guy in 1996.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Joseph @ 133 – I looked at all the MVP winners from 1969-present. I left out 1981 and 1994, and all 6 pitchers who won the MVP. That left 83 position player winners, including both of the 1979 NL co-MVPs. Of those 83, 60 played for division or wild card winners (72%). 43 of them played for division/wild card winners and led their team in HR, RBI, or both (52%). This has been more pronounced in the AL, where 23 of 39 non-pitcher MVPs have been on playoff teams & led their team in HR, RBI, or both (59%). In… Read more »

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

David @ 135.

Thanks for all that work! It looks like that might explain at least part of the reason Gonzalez won.

David P

9 years ago

Reply to Mo

Mo – I made a similar suggestion a few months ago. Would definitely be a fun project!

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Mo

Re: alternate choices for the MVP, actually there are some interesting options already in play. The Sporting News chose MVPs from 1929 through 1945. In 1929, when the AL offered no award, SN chose Al Simmons to pair with the NL winner Hornsby. In 1930 the SN award stood alone, and Joe Cronin and Bill Terry were the awardees. From 1930 to 1945, the SN award failed to correspond to the BBWAA award several times: 1931: AL, Lou Gehrig, not Lefty Grove, and NL, Chuck Klein, not Frankie Frisch 1934: AL, Lou Gehrig, not Mickey Cochrane 1935: NL, Arky Vaughan,… Read more »

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, Ashburn, and Winfield