Circle of Greats 1905 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 84th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1905. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1905-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must, as usual, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1905-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. As always, the one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Saturday, February 7, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Thursday, February 5.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1905 Vote Tally . I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1905 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The eighteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1905 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Joe Cronin (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
David Cone (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Don Drysdale (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Jim Edmonds (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dwight Evans (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Wes Ferrell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1905, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Doc Cramer
Rick Ferrell
Leo Durocher
Gus Mancuso
Red Kress
Bob Johnson
Freddie Lindstrom
Pinky Whitney
Wally Berger
Arndt Jorgens
Jack Rothrock
John Stone
Adam Comorosky
Sam Leslie

Pitchers (born in 1906, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Red Ruffing
Danny MacFayden
Jack Russell
Bob Weiland
Ed Brandt

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David P

9 years ago

A less than standout group of newcomers:

1) Among players with less than 10 WAR, Doc Cramer has by far the most career PAs (nearly 1,400 more than Don Kessinger).

2) Among players with less than 6 WAR, Leo Durocher has the 10th most PAs.

3) Arndt Jorgenson played 11 seasons, all with the Yankees, accumulating a mere 836 PAs and 0.1 WAR.

4) Jack Russell is one of 4 pitchers with 200+ decisions and a winning percentage under .400.

5) Bob Weiland and Russell are 2 of the 14 pitchers with 150+ decisions and a WP under .400.

9 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Red Ruffing

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to MJ

Over 11,000 Innings Pitched, and about 47,000 Batters Faced, on that ballot.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Cronin, Campanella, Ferrell

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I assume you mean Wes? His brother Rick is eligible this round, too. Rick is the one in the Hall of Fame.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Yeah, the HOF kind of blew it on that one. I’m voting for the one that belongs in the HOF and the COG- Wes.

Thanks for catching that.

BillH

9 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Winfield

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Alomar, Minoso, Ashburn

BryanM

9 years ago

Looked for a reason not to vote for Kevin Brown – couldn’t find one – Brown, alomar cronin

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

With Appling off the ballot, my default vote from the last few rounds needs to change. I’m going (tentatively) with:

Kevin Brown
Don Drysdale
Luis Tiant

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

You’re such a peak focused guy, why Tiant over Ferrell?

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

So sorry I didn’t see this earlier, mosc! I’ve been following the thread, but I never even looked for follow-up to my own post! A couple of things. The first and foremost of those is that I don’t see THAT much difference between them. And, all else being equal, I will lean towards a more recent player, especially when comparing a pre-integration player to a post-expansion player. I just believe that the quality of 1970s baseball was much better than 1930s baseball. So there’s that. Another item is that, in a direct comparison of the two players, I think it’s… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Ferrell appeared in games without pitching hundreds of times. It’s not fair to discount all of his batting value since he was “just” a pitcher, even compared to a modern pitcher in a DH league. Ferrell outhit shortstops of his era and by raw numbers pretty much any era. He was good enough to pinch hit for more than just a pitcher.

He even played the field a few times.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

“Ferrell appeared in games without pitching hundreds of times.”

A wee exaggeration. Ferrell pitched in 374 games and appeared in 174 other games. Ferrell pinch-hit in 163 games but, surprisingly, stayed in the game to pitch on only 3 occasions.

Ferrell’s BOPs (1-9) are 11-2-0-0-3-10-12-21-489. Ferrell pinch-hit for the #8 or #9 hitter in 138 of 163 (85%) pinch-hit appearances.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Ferrell’s best season as a pitcher, and as a hitter, was 1935. And as a hitter he was just ridiculous: .347 / .427 / .533 / .960 And that’s no small sample size. He had 179 PA. And more walks than strikeouts. The #9 hitters in the AL that year (including Ferrell’s numbers), slashed: .202 / .260 / .262 / .522 _____ Compare that to the best player in the league that season (by OPS+), Jimmie Foxx: .346 / .461 / .636 / 1.096 He batted cleanup every game. #4 hitters in the AL: .302 / .388 / .506 /… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Keep in mind that 35 of his PAs in 1935 were as a PH, not a pitcher. For those PAs, his performance should probably be compared to alternative hitters who might have been used in the situation, rather than other pitchers.

Artie Z.

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

birtelcom – look at the 1935 Red Sox. It’s not the Ted Williams Red Sox. In 1935 Ferrell was their leading OPS+ guy for players with more than 18 PAs. The second best player on the team was Dusty Cooke, 112 OPS+. The team OPS+, without pitchers, was 91. The Red Sox didn’t have a lot of alternatives then. In 1936 Wes Ferrell, not to be confused with Rick, only had an 85 OPS+. He certainly wasn’t the best hitter on that Red Sox team as it had Jimmie Foxx, but Red Sox non-pitchers, which includes Foxx and his 155… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

birtlecom – great, let’s call him a hitter.
This is my point. In his prime he was usually the best pitcher on the field, AND as good as most of the hitters. That is an unheard-of combination.

Editor

John Autin

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

birtelcom, if we’re parsing Ferrell’s PAs, let’s add that — like almost everyone — he hit much better as a starter than off the bench. So, if you chip a little off his batting value by comparing his bench PAs to other bench hitters, don’t forget to pump up his batting value relative to other pitchers. Seems close to a zero-sum game. Ferrell as a starter (which includes a mere 13 starts not on the hill): .293 BA, .363 OBP, .468 SLG, .831 OPS. Per 650 PAs: 20 HRs, 98 RBI, 92 runs, 54 XBH. Those bench PAs, almost 1/6… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

No, it’s not a zero-sum game because Ferrell should be getting 0 Rpos for all his non-pitcher PAs. But that chipped-away value is negligible. If 1/6 of his PAs is correct, it’s a simple computation since Ferrell ended up with near 0 Rbat. All of his value is in his positional adjustment, so we just shave 1/6 of his Rpos and he ends up with 10.7 WAR instead of 12.8. That shouldn’t be enough to change any conversation, so maybe we should just drop that side of it. Let’s just say he has 11 hitting WAR, or 13 if you… Read more »

David Horwich

9 years ago

Is anyone else having a problem with the subscription service? I haven’t received any of the posts from this thread, and over the last few days I was receiving the posts for the 1906 election very erratically, if at all. Is it just me?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I’m having problems. The recent posts list is lagging.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Although comments seem to be appearing promptly in the threads themselves, the “Recent Comments” list seems to stop up entirely for a while and then a whole bunch will appear at once. This has been happening for at least a few days now.

David Horwich

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Yeah, I noticed that about the ‘recent comments’ list. Something is clearly wonky, ’cause as of this (Friday) morning, I haven’t received a single post from this thread, nor the 1906 results thread.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

@18,

Yes, I’ve noticed the same behavior with my comments posted the last several days not appearing on the “Recent Comments”, though my most recent one appeared promptly.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

I posted this yesterday on the 1906 thread, because Dave Humbert brought up the question of Murray and Killer… __________ Eddie Murray vs Harmon Killebrew Steady Eddie easily beats Killer in every counting stat except for Home Runs. Of course, Murray had almost 3000 more plate appearances. 7th all-time vs 90th all-time. Over his last 3000 (3053) PA, covering six years, Murray is credited with 3.8 WAR. Killer was replacement level for his last three years, (1041 PA) Murray was consistently above average from ages 21-34. 9125 PA 63.2 WAR 396 Rbat / -7 Rbaser / 59 Rfield Killer was… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I’m not sure it’s fair though to treat Killer as “one-dimensional” as compared to Eddie. Harmon was both a great slugger and had a superb eye. He had a higher SLG than Murray but also a higher OBP (and that’s over their primes — not just an artifact of Eddie’s greater number of career PAs). Killer was a more valuable hitter overall, I think. And really, should Harmon be dinged as “one-dimensional” because he played, albeit poorly, at third and in the outfield while Eddie Murray was allowed to stay solely at first (and a bit of DH) his whole… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Yes, agreed. Harmon was 7th All-Time in BB when he retired. (to go with 5th in HomeRuns). I overlooked that. Or, maybe I chose to overlook it because being below average as a baserunner draws value away from walks. (Unless you’ve got Ruth and Gehrig batting behind you) (Killer walked 145 times in 1969. Amazing. But they walked him to get to Rich Reese and Leo Cardenas.) 19/18 SB, career 35 percent XBT 45th in Runs when he retired (now 132nd) 25th in RBI (now 38th) ____ And I’m not sure what to make of his defensive versatility, for similar… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

But that value of his baserunning after the walks has already been measured, and it’s baked into his WAR. You’re presenting it like it hasn’t.

I’m a Murray guy also and fully support his induction, but Killer also has a comfortable edge in RE24 (27th all-time) and WPA (18th) over Eddie.

Author

birtelcom

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

You do have to be careful with the “all-time” moniker for play-by-play stats such as RE24 and WPA, which only go back to 1940 with the Play Index’s current data.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

True, thanks. I was aware of that and should have included it. Since 1940, or whenever: RE24 Killer 27th, Murray 41st WPA Killer 18th, Murray 32nd Looking at Luke Appling’s logs post-1940, the play-by-play data doesn’t cover all games on the schedule, so hitters aren’t getting credit in the win probability department for a portion of the schedule. So the all-time ranking thing is even more suspect than I thought. Even Mays in the early ’50s has some games missing. Looks like Killer’s game logs are complete with RE24 data for ’59, the year he became a regular, so perhaps… Read more »

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

RE24 to me doesn’t need correction when you’re talking about comparing players for a season, say 2014 run producers but it certainly needs a correction for adjusting between eras.

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Great question, Voomo. A gut-reaction answer: I think you get a similar number of wins from both teams, but you draw more fans with the team full of one-tool guys. One tool worth 4 WAR is a pretty significant tool. Fans will come to watch Thome’s homers, Andrelton’s defense, and the mythical creature than can add four wins on the basepaths.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

@19,

I’d consider Killebrew more of a ‘two-and-a-half tool player”:

– power, of course, with HRs
– great batting eye; lots of walks
– positional versatility (1B, 3B, LF), but only a half, because it’s all at corner positions (no ‘up-the-middle positions)

By those standards, Ted Williams would be considered a “two tool player”, but OH, those two tools…

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Nice, Lawrence! I feel like Killebrew has been dragged through the mud long enough, but I’m saving up some bullets for a later time. I have a feeling he will be one of the last to make it if he does.

I also feel that with all the various forms of “what-if” credit being doled out to various players for a wide variety of reasons some thought should be given to how much value Killer lost because of his bonus-baby status early in his career.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

It frustrates me when Glove and Arm are two of the tools when they’re more than likely intertwined. I would prefer the 5 tools be
Contact
Eye
Power
Speed
Defense

But I guess I’m happier lumping arm+glove than contact+eye

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@35,

Actually, Teddy Ballgame would be a ‘Three-tool-player’ by my standards:
-Power
– batting eye (ie, walks)
– BATTING AVERAGE

Andy

9 years ago

Alomar, Kevin Brown, Cronin

jajacob

9 years ago

alomar (Roberto not sandy sr or sandy jr), nettles(Craig not Jim), Tiant (the son, not the father or grandson)

koma

9 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Red Ruffing

JEV

9 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Murray

Mike HBC

9 years ago

Red Ruffing, Bob Johnson, Wes Ferrell

Steven

9 years ago

Minoso, Cronin, Ashburn.

Jeff Harris

9 years ago

Tiant, Brown, Alomar

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

9 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Brown 43.3 Reuschel 40.6 FerrellW 40.1 Cone 39.1 Edmonds 38.0 Tiant 37.5 Cronin 37.3 Alomar 37.1 Nettles 35.7 Drysdale 35.3 Evans 34.9 Eckersley 34.3 Ashburn 33.9 Murray 33.7 Ruffing 33.1 Killebrew 33.0 Winfield 31.1 Johnson 30.9 Minoso 30.6 Campanella 19.2 Some really bad Hall of Fame choices in this group. Indian Bob was far more valuable than Lindstrom or the lesser Ferrell. Ruffing, who could hit, rides the Wes Ferrell treatment (combining hitting and pitching WAA within each season and removing negative totals) to a slightly better rating. Kevin Brown, Kevin Brown… Read more »

Chris C

9 years ago

Cronin, Eckersley, Murray

koma

9 years ago

hmm, WordPress says i already cast my vote, but it doesn´t appear here, so again:
Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Red Ruffing

dr. remulak

9 years ago

Nettles, Campanella, Cronin.

Bill Johnson

9 years ago

Killebrew, Ashburn, and Bob Johnson

Doug

9 years ago

This year’s tidbits. 1. Red Ruffing is the only pitcher with two seasons of 30 decisions and a W-L% under .300. Who is the last pitcher with one such season? (Randy Jones) 2. Doc Cramer’s .079 career isolated power is the lowest mark among AL outfielders with 2000 games played. Which such NL outfielder has the lowest career ISO? (Richie Ashburn) 3. Rick Ferrell is one of four players with career OPS+ under 100 (min. 5000 PA) and career walk rate exceeding 13% of PAs, markers not yet seen in the expansion era. Which players with 5000+ PA since 1961… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Additional tidbits:

Red Ruffing is one of 6 pitchers to pitch a shutout and also hit a HR which was the only run of the game.

Doc Cramer, in 1940, set a seasonal record for lowest OPS+, 84, with at least 200 hits. It was broken in 2006 by Juan Pierre with an OPS+ of 82.

Leo Durocher was the first Yankee to wear number 7.

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Ruffing with Boston:

39 – 96

Ruffing with The Bronx:

231 – 124

__________

He came into the league the Youngest player.
And retired the 2nd Oldest.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Red Kress question: Was it Mark Whiten on 7-31-1998?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It was Whiten, who allowed a run, a hit, two walks and hit a batter. Kress had a cleaner frame, allowing only a hit.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Bob Weiland question: Not sure of this but was it Eddie Murray who hit a 3-run HR off Tim Sherrill on 6-16-1991?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

That’s correct.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

#2 (Doc Cramer) – Juan Pierre, in 6835 NL PAs, had a .070 ISO. That’s my guess. #14 (Arndt Jorgens) – Jack O’Connor was traded to the Yankees (nee Highlanders) on 10/6/1903. #15 (John Stone) – Tony Olivia, in 1964-1965, had 6.8 and 5.4 WAR, respectively, while hitting .323 and .321, respectively, while winning both batting titles. #18 (Sam Leslie) – I’m sure about Jack Fournier. I think Babe Herman is one of them, but I’m not positive he got 1500 PAs as a 1B in Brooklyn. I’m even more skeptical of Augie Galan, but that’s my third guess. If… Read more »

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Not bad, Dr Doom.

You got #14 and #15 right.

Juan Pierre is shy of the 2000 game qualifier, so he’s not the answer to #2.

Fournier is correct for #18, but not Herman, Galan or Guerrero.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Looks like O’Connor was traded from the Highlanders to the Browns for Norwegian John Anderson. There aren’t many Norwegians named O’Connor.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Dr. Doom: It was just a joke. Of course you meant “from” rather than “to” in your comment.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Ha! Yes, I DID mean “from” rather than “to.”

Doug, for some reason, I was thinking 2000 PAs, not 2000 G, and Juan Pierre was the first name that came to mind. And since he had like 6000 or 7000 NL PAs, it didn’t even occur to me that he might not be the answer! Lloyd Waner and his .077 ISO`

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Ha! Yes, I DID mean “from” rather than “to.”

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

1. (Ruffing) 30-decision seasons have gone the way of the dodo, so I am going to guess Brian Kingman, Doug.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

No, not Kingman. Have to go back further than that.

Mike L

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

roger craig in 1962 for the Mets (10-24) He was a remarkable 15-45 over 1962/63. ERA+ of 92 both years, which while sub-par, isn’t gruesome. I guess he pitched to the score

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

30+ decision seasons, by decade:

136 — 1960s
188 — 1970s
66 — 1980s
30 — 1990s
19 — 2000s
———
2 — 2010 only (Halladay and Waino both with 31 decisions out of 33 starts that year)
0 — 2011 to 2014

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Not that far back.

After his sub-.300 season, he was a 20-game winner the next two years.

Hartvig

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Randy Jones in 1974 for the Padres when he went 8-22.

First one of these I’ve answered in a long time.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Mike L

Bang on, Hartvig.

I seem to remember reading Jones’s fastball was in the mid-70 MPH range. Evidently a guy who needed pinpoint location or he’d get tattooed.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doc Cramer question: Is it Lloyd Waner?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Almost right. Waner is just shy of the 2000 game qualifier.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Leo Durocher question: Billy Hunter?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Hunter is correct. His 37 OPS+ in 1953 is the lowest in a qualifying (modern standard) debut season. That season is also the only one by a rookie with -2 oWAR and +2 dWAR.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Another stab at the Cramer question–how about Brett Butler?

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

No, not Butler.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Danny MacFayden question: Mike Moore

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Danny MacFayden question: Mike Moore

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Moore is correct.

Surprising he’s the only one. Five sub-.400 seasons doesn’t seem that far beyond the realm of possibility. I suppose, though, with 5 and 6 man rotations, if a guy is not on his game, he’ll probably won’t get the 25 or 30 starts he’ll need to make 20 decisions.

Right behind Moore, incidentally, is Steve Carlton with 4 such seasons. Edwin Jackson and Jamey Wright each have 3 seasons, the most among active pitchers.

Gary Bateman

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

One more shot at the Cramer question: Is it Richie Ashburn (.074)? If so, I should be ashamed of myself, because I’ve been voting for the guy almost every round.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Ashburn is correct.

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

My guess was Otis Nixon, though I was pretty sure he didn’t cross the 2000-game threshold. He didn’t, only 1700+ G.

But using 1500 games as the cutoff, Nixon’s career ISO isn’t just the lowest for any outfielder; it is the lowest for any major leaguer since 1901 with that many games played.

Lowest ISO, 1500+ games:

.044 — Otis Nixon
.046 — George McBride
.049 — Miller Huggins
.050 — Maury Wills, Donie Bush
.052 — Mark Belanger, Bud Harrelson
.056 — Wally Gerber
.058 — Tim Foli
.060 — Larry Bowa, Don Kessinger, Ivy Olson

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Part of the reason Nixon is so low is because of how often he tried to bunt for a hit. Data only goes back to 1988 so the first 20% or so of his PAs are missing. Extrapolating, Nixon probably is right there with Juan Pierre and Kenny Lofton, those three trailing only the extrapolated totals for Brett Butler for most bunt base hits in the past 30 years. That said, Nixon’s success rate on bunt attempts is less impressive. His .428 BA when bunting for a base hit ranks only 9th of 12 players with 200 attempts. Rk Player… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Oh, cool, bunt stats! I wasn’t aware you could get this from the split finder, thanks Doug.

I wish we knew Rod Carew’s success rate. He didn’t bunt often, but he was wildly successful when he did. Best I’ve ever seen at the surprise bunt.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Freddie Lindstrom question: Bernie Williams

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Williams is correct. Others to get 200 hits every time they hit 175 or more:
3 – Lefty O’Doul
2 – Mo Vaughn, Dale Mitchell, Mickey Vernon, Beau Bell, Woody English, Johnny Frederick, Carson Bigbee

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Jack Rothrock question: Ray Jablonski in 1953

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Not the first guy you would have thought of, was it?

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Pujols missed by one game in 2001.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Rick Ferrell question: Butch Wynegar (12.4%) and Mark McLemore (12.1%).

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

And, the answer for lowest OPS+ walking in 13% of 5000+ PA is Willie Randolph with 104 and 13.1%.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Wally Berger question: George Watkins

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Wally Berger question: George Watkins

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It is Watkins, who debuted in 1930 just shy of his 30th birthday. Watkins got his late start owing to late start in organized baseball at age 25 in the class D East Texas League. Watkins, who had been an oil field worker, got that opportunity after being spotted in a post-season exhibition series between teams of local amateurs and local professionals, the latter including some major leaguers. Watkins’ had a .373/.415/.621 slash in his rookie year, the BA second best and SLG third best in 400 PA rookie seasons since 1901. He never approached either mark again, but remained… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Jack Russell question: Greg Cadaret

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Cadaret is also one of 28 pitchers (Brian Duensing is the most recent) with exactly two seasons of 10 starts and 30 relief outings. Only Firpo Marberry (4), Tom Gordon (3) and Tim Wakefield (3) have more.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

The voting for this round is over, so I’ve updated the post with quiz answers.

Thanks for playing along.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Saturday, February 7

Don’t scare me like that I’m waiting to knock some people off man

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Sorry.

I was sure it was February 5th, earlier. Did birtelcom extend the time?

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

One of the great “What if?” questions for me is What if Bob Johnson had gotten an earlier start to his major league career. As it was, he’s in a group of outfielders just outside serious COG consideration, but the rest of the group all started no later than age 22, five years before Johnson. Rk Player PA WAR/pos WAA/pos From To Age G 1 Chet Lemon 7874 55.5 29.6 1975 1990 20-35 1988 2 Jim Wynn 8011 55.6 28.6 1963 1977 21-35 1920 3 Bob Johnson 8050 57.2 30.9 1933 1945 27-39 1863 4 Bobby Bonds 8090 57.7 31.8… Read more »

Paul E

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug,
Per b-ref, Johnson’s minor league career didn’t start until age 23. I guess he was digging ditches or working the oil fields from 18-22? And, then he signs a contact at 23? If they would have found him at 18, maybe he makes the Hall of Fame, barring injury, of course. Obviously, that wouldn’t happen today…
Also, per b-ref, he’s “Indian Bob”. Can you imagine in 2015 someone called, “Dago Dave”, “Jewish Jake”, or “Black Bob”?

Alomar, Killebrew, Winfield.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Funny thing:

Bob Johnson’s older brother Roy was the same way only more so: He got into pro ball late, age 25, came up the next year to be an immediate starter for Detroit. Smaller, less powerful and not the hitter Bob was.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Johnson had the second highest OPS+ for qualifying players in his next to last season. His OPS+ of 174 in 1944 trails only Ed Delahanty’s 187 in 1902. Of course the ML talent was a bit weaker in 1944 due to WWII.

Dr. Doom

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Of course, Indian Bob was putting up STELLAR numbers in his late 30s, due to WWII (174 OPS+ at age 38!). So we have to take the stats he did put up with a grain of salt. Considering he would’ve been a bit player as a teen, I think we can pretty much consider his numbers as they stand to be fair, without making a war adjustment to what he did. That still leaves him, as you say, a bit short of serious COG consideration. I will freely admit, though, that if a post-integration player put up those same career… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Earl Averill also started in MLB at 27, and Sam Rice became a regular at age 27. If Bob Johnson had a few more “hang around” years, he might be a real HOF/ COG candidate.

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

@30,

#9 above: The most such seasons consecutively of qualifying 125 OPS+:

Ty Cobb had 19 such seasons, from 1907-1925. If you don’t think he ‘qualified’ in 1914 (he was awarded the Batting Title), Hank Aaron had 18 such seasons from 1955-1972.

#19 above: Charlie Gehringer – 87 XBH in 1936: 60 2B, 12 3B, 15 HR. Even with a .354 BA, he “only” had a 142 OPS+.

Did NOT use the B-R index. I swear. Really. Cross my heart etc…

Lawrence Azrin

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

My recent posts again not showing on ‘Recent Comments’.

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Cobb is the right answer.

It was fewer than 15 HR, so Gehringer is not the right answer for 19.

no statistician but

9 years ago

Reply to Doug

Stan the Man in 1943—48, 20, 13.

Editor

Doug

9 years ago

Reply to no statistician but

Musial is the one.

Most since Stan is 73 (55 + 7 + 11) by Matt Carpenter in 2013.

Joseph

9 years ago

More Nettles Propaganda WAR for some of the contenders in this round: Eddie Murray+ (21) 68.3 Graig Nettles (22) 68.0 Dwight Evans (20) 66.9 Roberto Alomar+ (17) 66.8 Joe Cronin+ (20) 66.4 Jim Edmonds (17) 60.3 Look who is near the top. BTW, that’s more than the deservedly esteemed Erine Banks. In the history of the game, only eleven players have over 50 oWAR and 20 dWAR. Nettles is one of them. During the 70’s, he was fourth in WAR for the decade (more than his Yankee teammate Reggie Jackson, btw), second in dWAR (ahead of B. Robinson, BTW–Belanger was… Read more »

bstar

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Good stuff again, I meant to say that last time. You forced me to reconsider Nettles. I think we as a community, in mulling over whether to get Bando, Boyer, Bell, or Nettles back onto the ballot, probably picked the right guy.

Joseph, he also led the AL in games played for the ’70s (second in MLB to Rose) and has a nice postseason record to boot.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to bstar

Thank you, Bstar. Also, Nettles led the league twice in WAR for position players, has tons of defensive black ink, was the ALCS MVP in 1976, and once rescued a dog from drowning. Okay, I made up that dog thing. Sorry.

mosc

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

He had a better peak than a lot of guys we look at too. Over 9 years he hit a respectable 88 RBAT but also had 151 RFIELD and AVERAGED 157 games a season for over 50 WAR (at almost a 6WAR per season clip). Lou Whitaker only in two seasons reached the output that Nettles AVERAGED over 9 consecutive years.

I’d eat my hat if there’s another candidate we would even consider failing to put in who sustained >4.5 WAR over 9 straight years. That’s got to be a pretty short list.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to mosc

Interesting about the peak WAR. I found 31 position players who had at least 9 seasons with >= 4.5 WAR. (I could have missed some–not sure how to use the play index that precisely. Of those 31 players, only 17 had at least 9 consecutive seasons >= 4.5 WAR (by the way, I counted them if they missed time for military service if they had at least 4.5 in each full year before and after service). Also, of those 31 players who had at least 9 seasons with 4.5 WAR or better, 28 are eligible for the HOF. Only one… Read more »

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Joseph

Joseph: My PI search shows 50 position players with WAR >= 4.5. I have found 24 of them with 9 consecutive such seasons, although I might be off on that number.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Of course I meant WAR with at least 9 seasons of WAR >= 4.5.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I wasn’t sure I ran the search right, so I’m not surprised you got a different number.

How did you search? I looked at all the 4.5 WAR seasons (and up) and then sorted them by name and tried to count all the names. Very awkward.

Richard Chester

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

@125

Here’s how I found the 50 players. On the PI select:
Batting Season Finder
Players with Seasons Matching Criteria
Non-pitcher
WAR>= 4.5
Get Report

For the 9 consecutive seasons:
Without changing any of the above settings
Set the seasons from First to 9th
Get Report
Scan the results for all players with 9 seasons and then see if the From…To years span 9 years. Write down the names.
Then set the seasons to 2nd to 10th and repeat.
Then set the seasons from 3rd to 11th and repeat. Keep repeating until you have covered all the years.

Joseph

9 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Okay–I found the 50 players; I used the “Find Players with Seasons Matching Criteria.” It lists all the players who had a season over 4.5 WAR, and the number of seasons. Then you can click on the player names to look at the individual seasons. But just considering the 50 with 9 seasons >= 4.5 WAR, 40 of them are in the HOF (regardless of whether they were consecutive or not). Of the 10 not in the HOF, 6 aren’t eligible (Including P. Rose). One is Barry Bonds, who might as well not be eligible for all practical purposes (for… Read more »

aweb

9 years ago

Brown
Reuschel
Killebrew

Hub Kid

9 years ago

Cronin, Tiant, Evans

although I am sure that i have betrayed my team bias before this, i think this is my first all Red Sox vote

9 years ago

Killer, Murray, El Tiante

Stephen

9 years ago

Killebrew, Alomar, Murray

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

Analysis of this week’s candidates… CATCHER Roy Campanella .276 / .360 / .500 / .860 / 123 Offensive force at Catcher for 5 pennant winners. Short career due to segregation. _________ FIRST BASE Harmon Killebrew 573 HR 1559 BB .256 / .376 / .509 / .884 / 143 The first TTO (three true outcome) player. When he retired in 1975, he was 2nd in SO 5th in HR 7th in BB Mickey Mantle is the only other guy in that range. But the Mick ended with a .298 BA. Harmon was .256 ____________ Eddie Murray 3255 Hits 560 2B 504… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

9 years ago

PITCHER Kevin Brown 211 – 144 (.594) 3.28 1.222 Dominant peak. Disliked for a huge contract, surly attitude, and PED suspicion. __________ David Cone 194 – 126 (.606) 3.46 1.256 Rate stats phenomenal if you remove his last 3 years. Part of Yankees dynasty. Cerebral assassin. ___________ Don Drysdale 209 – 166 (.557) 2.95 1.148 Led the league in GS four years in a row for a dominant Dodger team. Five pennants, three rings. Good hitter. ________________ Dennis Eckersley 197 – 171 (.535) 3.50 1.161 390 Saves Two-career pitcher. Redefined (for better and worse) the closer role. ___________ Wes Ferrell… Read more »