Circle of Greats: 1908 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 79th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG). This round adds to the list of candidates eligible to receive your votes those players born in 1908. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group of 1908-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). This new group of 1908-born candidates joins the eligible holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full list of players eligible to appear on your ballots.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST Sunday, December 21, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Friday, December 19.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1908 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1908 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The thirteen current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The 1908 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Lou Boudreau (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Roy Campanella (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Rick Reuschel (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dizzy Dean (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Joe Medwick (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1908, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Al Lopez
Billy Jurges
Ernie Lombardi
Ben Chapman
Gee Walker
Myril Hoag
Mike Kreevich
Jo-Jo Moore
Frankie Pytlak
Babe Phelps
Jake Powell
Billy Werber
Ival Goodman
Odell Hale
Red Rolfe
George Selkirk
Zeke Bonura

Pitchers (born in 1908, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Wes Ferrell
Lefty Gomez
Johnny Murphy
Al Hollingsworth
Bill Swift
Monte Pearson

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Chris C

10 years ago

Eck, Murray, Boudreau

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Innings Pitched per Win Above Average (IpWaa):

73.5 …. (1969) Dean
80.3 …. (3256) Brown
93.1 …. (3548) Reuschel
101.0 … (3486) Tiant
107.4 … (3286) Eckersley
110.1 … (2621) Wes Ferrell
127.0 … (2502) Lefty Gomez
190.0 … (1045) Johnny Murphy

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Ival Goodman
has the only season with no more than 15 doubles, and at least
14 triples, and
17 homers

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Here is Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): 105.1 … (1345) Wes Ferrell (see also his pitching stats) 166.4 … (7024) Lou Boudreau 260.3 … (6351) Ernie Lombardi 287.8 … (7712) Minnie Minoso 289.8 … (8143) Duck Medwick 304.7 … (3322) George Selkirk 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 …(10400) Rob Alomar 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killebrew 419.9 … (4029) Zeke Bananas Bonura 461.1 … (7424) Ben Chapman 474.8 …(12817) Eddie Murray 521.4 …(12358) Dave! Winfield _______ Let’s adjust for length of career. To use a semi-arbitrary baseline, I’m calling the… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Selkirk and Bonura both make it to this ballot under the 20 WAR or more exception to the 10-season requirement. Bonura makes it with just seven seasons in the majors. He had a reputation as a particular poor fielding first baseman, and if the numbers we use now confirmed that, he probably would not have the 20 WAR needed to make the ballot. But our best available current fielding estimates for that period suggest that in fact he was above average as a first baseman in overall defensive value. Bill James ranked him as a B+ defensive first baseman based… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Zeke Bonura’s 16.3 WAR over his first four seasons trails only Frank Thomas for most four-year WAR to start a career as a member of the White Sox.

George Selkirk just cracks the top 20 in games played by a Canadian-born player. His .400 OBP is tied for second best with Larry Walker amongst non cup-of-(Tim Hortons)-coffee Canadians, behind the active Joey Votto.

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Banana Nose and Twinkletoes. Got it covered from top to bottom.

ajnrules

10 years ago

Lou Boudreau
Rick Reuschel
Ernie Lombardi

Jeff Harris

10 years ago

Boudreau, Tiant

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Jeff Harris

oops, need one more.

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Is it really required to vote for three if there are not three candidates we would put in? (I dont have this problem yet, just wondering).

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

Yes; three players per ballot exactly are required. If you really don’t think that three belong, though, you can always just waste a vote on someone super unqualified; that way, they won’t hold over and you won’t have potentially helped someone get elected.

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

Yes, three on each ballot are required. You can vote for the three who you think are the best three of the eligible candidates (which is not necessarily a statement that all three are COG-worthy). Alternatively, you can vote tactically and vote for three in any manner that you think best helps advance the candidacy of those you think COG-worthy. But you must include three eligible candidates on your ballot.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

A heads-up on coming Circle of Greats attractions, in case it is helpful in planning your votes: The next two rounds after this one, parts one and two of the 1907 birth-year class, will each be accompanied by a redemption round, each of which will select two players to return to the ballot. The first of these redemption rounds will include players born from 1946 through 1969, and the the second redemption round will include players born from 1908 through 1945. Then, after the completion of the two parts of the 1907 voting, with their accompanying redemption rounds, the next… Read more »

Chris C

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

If Giambi retires, will we do a 1971 ballot?

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Chris C

The plan is to hold the 1971 ballot at the beginning of 2016.

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

What is the reasoning behind separating the redemption rounds by year? just to make the lists smaller? Personally I feel that the list of rejected candidates from 1946 to 1969 is *much* stronger than that from 1908 to 1945, because for the most of the 1946-1969 elections we had a very strong holdover list with most of those candidates now in. OTOH, the last 10-20 ballots have been quite a bit weaker, and probably include some candidates that won’t get in. There have been very few years in the last 20 when it was even possible for a candidates likely… Read more »

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

I agree, I think all of the better redemption round candidates are players from the 70s and 80s on our list. They went against established guys who accumulated rounds, had serious competition, and were pushed out by the post war players as well.

David P

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

Mosc #107 and Michael Sullivan #60

Looking at the past redemption vote, here are the candidates that received 5 or more votes, broken out by the two time periods:

46-69: McGwire, Palmiero, Randolph, Ted Simmons

08-45: Dick Allen, Ashburn, Drysdale, Nettles, Reggie Smith, Sutton, Wilhelm

Seems to me that the 08-45 time period is actually much stronger than the 46-69 period. And if you include people who received 4+ votes, the 08-45 period would gain Stargell and Boyer whereas the 46-69 period would gain no one.

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Michael@60: You are right that the basic motivation for breaking the redemption round into two parts was that it is getting quite unwieldy, I think, for voters to select among everyone born since 1908 in a single ballot. Also, part of the point of the redemption rounds is to assure that top candidates from different eras, who voters may not have had a chance to compare head-to-head because of the way the voting rounds are conducted, do have a chance to be compared against one another in the induction balloting. The two-part redemption voting is intended to help assure that.… Read more »

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to David P

In the spreadsheets I linked to above, the hitters are listed in order of career PAs, the pitchers are listed in an order based on a crude formula that is IP + (5*SV). The idea was to list the candidates in a relatively neutral manner based on sheer career quantity, and to leave all judgments of quality up to the voters to determine.

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Yeah I guess I was thinking of Nettles, Smith, and Sutton as post war candidates but they were all born just before the 1946 cutoff.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Plus you’ve got guys like Ralph Kiner & Enos Slaughter and most importantly (to me anyways) Larry Doby & Monte Irvin in the older group as well.

The only guy in the post-WW2 group that interests me (at least that I can think of) that hasn’t already been mentioned is Buddy Bell.

bstar

10 years ago

Reply to David P

I think this is a great idea to separate the field of redemption candidates into two groups. To me, it accomplishes two things: -it will bolster the weak holdover list with 4 candidates instead of just 2. -it corrects for the fact that it is becoming harder to get back on the ballot because the sheer number of candidates out in purgatory continues to grow. Someone like Lofton or Edgar who fell off the ballot relatively early in this process had an easier road to get back on the holdover list because they didn’t have to beat out as large… Read more »

Chris C

10 years ago

Wait, did we do a 1970 ballot?

Chris C

10 years ago

Reply to Chris C

Ignore this. I can’t read.

Gary Bateman

10 years ago

Alomar, Minoso, Ferrell

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Gary Bateman

Ferrell is certainly an interesting case, combining very solid pitching and unusual value as a hitter.

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

On the recent Hall of Fame post, Jim Kaat was pumped up as the shadow CY winner in 1966 for his 25-13, 131 ERA+ season in 1966, when Koufax grabbed the single award. In 1930 Ferrell had a 25-13 record and a 145 ERA+. That year, though, had there been a CY award, Lefty Grove’s 28-5, 185 ERA+ season would have trumped Ferrell’s.

Luck of the draw.

bells

10 years ago

I’m in transit and have no time to really think about my CoG vote for a few days yet, but I just want to say that first, I’m very excited to have the CoG back, and second, even though I don’t know if I’ll end up voting for him, I definitely have a (admittedly Bill James-inspired) soft spot for Ernie Lombardi.

I know it’s tough to really compare over ancient history, does anyone have any other candidates for slowest player in baseball history?

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to bells

Bengie Molina is definitely in the running (sorry, couldn’t resist). A while back I looked up a bunch of XBT% numbers (percentage of times a runner took extra bases on a single or double), and his was the lowest figure I found, 16%. This was a decidely non-comprehensive search, to be sure. Mike Lavalliere barely out’ran’ Molina at 17%. The highest number I found was some guy named Mays, 63%. Anyway, Molina had 6 3B and 3 SB in a career of 5159 PA, along with that 16% XBT%. Lombardi had 27 3B and 8 SB in 6351 PA; his… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David H: Ever since you last brought this up I’ve been keeping an eye out for interesting XBT% figures, and I actually found one higher than Mays. The Say Hey Kid has an XBT% of 62.9%, but that is beaten by the unlikely figure of Glenn Beckert, with an XBT% of 63.1%. Beckert’s stolen base totals (49 SB in over 5000 PA) would not indicate that he was anything like a speedster.

I posted about it here, and John Autin did some further digging;

http://www.highheatstats.com/2014/05/saturday-game-notes-quo-vadis-senor-cueto/#comment-79398

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Thanks for the link, RJ – I hadn’t seen that thread before. Glenn Beckert! – who’d’a thunk it? Here’s my original post on the topic of XBT%:

http://www.highheatstats.com/2014/01/slide-billy-slide-but-above-all-hit/#comment-72872

Billy Hamilton the Younger is at 67% in his brief career.

Another candidate for slowest of all time is Billy Butler: 4 3B and 5 SB in 4811 PA; 20% XBT%. There’s an entertaining article by Joe Posnanski about him here:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/09/25/the-slowest-player-in-baseball/

David P

10 years ago

Reply to bells

Bells #18 – I mentioned this a few rounds ago but there’s clearly something wrong with the Rbaser and Rdp numbers from Lombardi’s era. And you can most clearly see this by looking at Lombardi himself. Baseball Reference has him at +5 Rbaser and 0 Rdp. Based on everything we know about Lombardi, there’s no way those numbers are correct.

David Horwich

10 years ago

My guess is that this round will end up a 3-way battle between Boudreau, Brown, and Killebrew. I’m an anti-Brownite, and I’ve been lukewarm on both Boudreau and Killebrew – not strongly against their making the CoG, but not strongly in favor, either. However, I’m starting to come around on both of the latter. In Boudreau’s case, my objection (or lack of conviction) has been based on the brevity of his career, and the ‘war discount’ effect on his numbers. The length of his career is what it is, but as far as his playing against the lesser competition of… Read more »

David P

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David H #19: Interesting Thome/Killebrew comparison. In looking at the two of them and comparing them across Baseball Reference and Fangraphs, here’s what I notice: 1) They both agree that Thome was the better hitter by about 100-120 runs (I believe Fangraphs includes Rdp in their batting numbers). 2) Fangraphs does ding Thome a little bit more for positional adjustment. 3) There’s a clear discrepancy in how they value baserunning. Baseball Reference has them basically even (-24 and -27 runs) whereas Fangraphs has a sizable advantage for Killebrew (0 and -47). I’m skeptical that Killebrew was basically a league average… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to David P

your last question has a really easy answer: runs were worth more on average during Killebrew’s time because the average run environment was less — it took about 9 runs per win, as opposed to 10, — that’s responsible for that last 6 war difference, and it’s not a fangraphs thing. BR does the same thing, they just have different run totals. This happens for everyone and it makes sense — there’s a bigger spread in runs created in higher scoring environments, but you need more runs to create a win in those environments. The baserunning discrepancy is more interesting.… Read more »

David P

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

Michael Sullivan – Perhaps I didn’t explain the final point correctly. It’s a comparison of Killebrew between Fangraphs and Baseball Reference. So it has nothing to do with different run environments.

Fangraphs has Killebrew with 599 Runs above Replacement and 66.1 WAR. Baseball Reference has him with 598 Runs above Replacement but only 60.3 WAR. Not sure why that would be.

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to David P

sorry when you said “has Killebrew with 6 more WAR” I thought it was a comparison between killebrew and thome.

It’s hard to believe that there’s that big a difference in the runs/win calculation between the two sites, so that does seem a bit odd.

At first I was thinking maybe a different replacement level, but a) I thought they harmonized that a couple years ago, and b) that should affect runs as well.

David P

10 years ago

Since there’s only 4 people on the ballot that I fully support for the COG, this is a fairly easy vote:

Boudreau or Alomar for the win. Tiant to stay on the ballot.

David P

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Vote Change: Dropping Alomar and voting for Murray.

Steve

10 years ago

Dizzy Dean, Harmon Killebrew; Lefty Gomez

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Alomar, Murray, and Brown

Steven

10 years ago

Dean, Medwick, Minoso.

JEV

10 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Medwick

Andy

10 years ago

Dean, Killebrew, Minoso

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Brown 43.3 Boudreau 42.3 Reuschel 40.6 Tiant 37.5 Alomar 37.1 Eckersley 34.3 Murray 33.7 Killebrew 33.0 Winfield 31.1 Minoso 30.6 Medwick 30.2 FerrellW 29.6 + 12.9 hitting Dean 27.9 Lombardi 24.5 Gomez 23.1 Campanella 19.2 Any opinions as to whether it’s fair to simply add Ferrell’s pitching WAA and hitting WAA? As a hitter, he’s being compared to other pitchers, so he’s getting credit for surpassing a really low standard, but then, that advantage is real, since other teams had to put a pitcher in the lineup too. On the other hand,… Read more »

mosc

10 years ago

The only guy I would be upset at being left out from this ballot is Campanella. I am excited for the redemption rounds to get some more talent on this ballot. We’re also entering some much better years soon, that will help as well. Using my peak WAR averaging method I discussed earlier, I took a look at Murray and Killebrew, Thome, and Boudreau. Murray beats Killebrew in WAR for any N consecutive years you pick, clean sweep. Similarly, so does Bodreau beat Murray until N > 14 years. Even tweaking things for the war years (removing some RBAT in… Read more »

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

I forgot Winfield. No WAR adjustment his number is 4.265 for the average of averages over 25 years. That’s 0.054 better than Killebrew but a decent ways under the Murray line. Using his OWAR instead, his numbers actually go down for N=1 through N=7 (he was a better than average defender during his peak years even by WAR standards). He gets better from there using OWAR and comes out 4.425 but that’s still below the Murray Line. I like winfield a lot and think his defensive contributions are underappreciated but I think calling him a league average defender even when… Read more »

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

For those of you that are curious how heavily this weights peak, Koufax comes in at 4.995. In other words, it weights peak very heavily.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

For the record, this is very similar to how I’ve been weighting players the entire time, with descending value for each year N, sorted from greatest to least. Except that I use the first year times 1, the second year times .9, the third times .81, the fourth times .729, etc., etc., so that each year is worth 90% of the year before it. Works pretty well to value peak and career, I think.

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I’d have to do the math but I think our score difference between two players would be exactly the same percentage.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

Well, I don’t use consecutive years; I start with all seasons, so I’m certain we’d find some differences, with your system preferring players who bunch their best seasons tightly, and mine being agnostic on that point, simply ordering seasons by WAR. Besides, I’m pretty sure the math wouldn’t work out with them as the same. Your own math would work out differently depending on whether you used 10 years rather than 25, or 30, or 20. The number of terms in your own equation is going to change the value of them in relationship to one another. If you use… Read more »

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Yeah. I use 25. You want it pretty long because the metric is already very peak heavy since the single season peak gets counted so many times over.

koma

10 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley, Dave Winfield

brp

10 years ago

Murray to win
Winfield and Tiant to stay on the ballot because I don’t know.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

For me, it’ll be: Kevin Brown Lou Boudreau Luis Tiant I’m just not sure what to do with Wes Ferrell. He’s probably just off my ballot, regardless of hitting numbers. I understand the math behind it WAR; for me, though, it’s just tough to say that the pitcher as a hitter is the difference between being OUTSIDE the HOF (as Ferrell, purely as a pitcher, would likely be), and INSIDE the COG! Especially considering that Ferrell was just a league-average hitter (OPS+ 100), he was only over 100 in four full seasons. I don’t know. Like I said, I get… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Well, just looking at WAR including batting WAR, he deserves COG consideration, but he’s below every other pitcher we’ve elected, and he’s below 3 on this ballot. If you take WAA at face value, his WAA+ is slightly above Tiant, but some kind of composite probably puts him behind. So he’s a possible COG candidate, but not a clear one. i think the batting WAR is legit. Hardly anyone has this much batting WAR from the pitcher’s slot (Babe ruth did for a few years, but then… babe ruth). Yes, he’s just batting average for the league, but getting an… Read more »

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

By “below every other pitcher we’ve elected” I suppose you mean in terms of pitching WAR only? Because so far we’ve elected 3 pitchers with less combined WAR than Ferrell (61.6) : Ford (57.3), Rivera (57.1), and Koufax (49.0).

Michael Sullivan

10 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

I kinda threw that off without thinking too hard. Oops. Partly I forgot about Ford and Koufax because I didn’t support them, so basically he’s below my line. I also didn’t consider Rivera, because I consider a career RP to be essentially a different category, but I did say “Pitcher” and not “starting pitcher” Apparently what I should have said is “he’s below every starting pitcher that we *should* have elected.” :). I didn’t realize Koufax was that poor a batter. I mean how bad do you have to be to drop 4 WAR from the 1. I guess about… Read more »

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to Michael Sullivan

A lifetime batting average of .097 will certainly drag a player’s numbers down. Interestingly, it seems that Koufax was considered a good hitter as an amateur, per this scouting report:

http://scouts.baseballhall.org/report?reportid=03245&playerid=koufasa01

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

I didn’t look at Ferrell at all. I’m going to change my vote. Ferrell the pitcher compares very favorably with the likes of Tiant and Reuschel favoring his peak. He put up 15.2 pitching war ’35+’36, that’s more than Tiant and Reuschel ever did in back to back years. He lacks their longevity clearly as both had a full third more innings. Ferrell’s league average bat was better than a AAA replacement level position player bat lets remember and he did have 1345 PA’s Ferrell has more PITCHING WAR than Tiant in N=1 (tied) through N=11 years, ignoring their bats.… Read more »

10 years ago

Reuschel, Murray, Boudreau

Shard

10 years ago

Murray, Alomar, Dean

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Ferrell had an 8-year peak of 6.2 WAR. He had only one notable (league average) season outside of his peak. Cherry-picking those 8 years (1929 – 1936), WAR leaders: 63.6 … Lefty Grove 49.4 … Carl Hubbell 49.2 … Wes Ferrell 34.2 … Dizzy Dean 31.5 … Mel Harder _____ Expanding for the length of his career (1927 – 1941): 100.4 .. Lefty Grove 67.2 … Carl Hubbell 50.9 … Ted Lyons 48.8 … Wes Ferrell 48.2 … Red Ruffing 45.4 … Mel Harder _____ Batting WAR, by Pitchers, 1927 – 1941: 12.7 .. Wes Ferrell 12.5 .. Red Ruffing… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Vote:

Lou Boudreau
Wes Ferrell
Eddie Murray

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

This round’s tidbits: – Al Lopez passed Ray Schalk in career games caught in 1945, a record Lopez would hold for more than 40 years. Who was the first player to pass Lopez? Lopez also caught 100 games in a season three or more times for each of three franchises. Who are the only other catchers to do the same? – Ernie Lombardi’s 9 qualifying seasons batting .300 is tied with Mike Piazza for the most by a right-hand hitting catcher. Who holds the record for switch-hitting catchers? – Billy Jurges is the only player with 500 games at shortstop… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Ival Goodman question: Paul Waner is the only other since 1901 to lead his league in triples in his first two seasons.

I discovered this whilst researching some titbits of my own, which I’ll post below. In the live-ball era, Waner and Goodman are #1 and #2 in triples over their first five seasons.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Jurgens – Marty Marion. It took me literally one guess. I thought, “I bet that’s Marty Marion,” I looked it up, and I was right!

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Jurges, obviously. Autocorrect fail.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Pretty sharp, Dr. Doom.

Marion – four pennants, seven ASG, one MVP, two other top 10s, three more top 25s
Jurges – three pennants, three ASG, zero MVP, zero top 10s, two top 25s

Evidently, Marion passed the eye test better than Jurges.

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Gee Walker – Dick Allen is obviously the “lobbying on his behalf” player to whom you refer.
Also, it’s post-free-agency, but Kenny Lofton played for NINE franchises in his final SIX seasons. Even in an era of free agency, that’s A LOT of movement.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Yup, Dick Allen was the easy answer. You had the makings of a decent team from the players traded for Allen in those four years.

1B – Willie Montanez
2B – Cookie Rojas, Ted Sizemore
CF – Curt Flood
C – Tim McCarver, Bob Stinson
SP – Tommy John
RP – Joe Hoerner, Jerry Johnson

Later, Allen was traded for himself (in a manner of speaking):
(1) Allen from Chicago to Atlanta for PTBNL
(2) Allen from Atlanta to Philadelphia for Jim Essian
(3) Essian from Atlanta to Chicago to complete (1)

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Gee Walker:
Bobby Bonds made in 5 franchises in 5 seasons from 1974 – 1978 with SF, NYY, CAL, CWS, TEX. He actually spent 1978 with the final two and only played 26 games with the White Sox.

You could probably make a pretty decent team with the “problem” guys who got traded frequently in the prime of their careers. It seemed like every time Bonds or Allen was traded their former employers got two players in return

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Good one, Paul E.

But, there was at least one 5 teams in 5 years player before free agency in 1974. Who was he?

Scary Tuna

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

@ 57.

Rogers Hornsby is the HOFer who played in 100+ games for four teams in four consecutive years: 1926-Cardinals, 1927-Giants, 1928-Braves, and 1929-Cubs.

Still trying to come up with the five teams in five years player…

Scary Tuna

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

I presume the answer we’re searching for is post 1900. However, I just stumbled across Duke Farrell, who played for six different franchise in six consecutive years: 1889 Chicago White Stockings (NL), 1890 Chicago Pirates (PL), 1891 Boston Reds (AA), 1892 Pittsburgh Pirates (NL), 1893 Washington Senators (NL), and 1894 New York Giants (NL).

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Yes, Scary Tuna, since 1901.

But nice find on Duke Farrell. Interesting that those six seasons were the only ones of 100 games in his 18 year career (although he hit 90 three more times).

Farrell is one of only 6 players in the 19th century with six 70 RBI seasons in the first 7 years of a career (one of them, George Davis, had 70 RBI all 7 seasons).

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

The first Frank Thomas played for the Pirates, Reds, Cubs, Braves and Mets from 1958-1962 with 100+ games for each team.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Frank Thomas is the one.

Thomas’s 34 home runs for the ’62 Mets would stand as the franchise high until Dave Kingman smashed 36 in 1975 (and 37 in 1976). Toddy Hundley (1996) and Carlos Beltran (2006) share the current Met record with 41.

For his career, Thomas hit 47 home runs at the Polo Grounds, one every 15 AB. He hit one every 23 AB everywhere else.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Al Lopez question: Tony Pena and Darrell Porter.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

That’s part (b) of the question.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Looks like part (a) is Bob Boone.

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct, Richard.

Boone passed Lopez in the 1987 season. Carlton Fisk passed Boone in the final game of his career in 1993, and I-Rod passed Fisk in 2009.

Today, Lopez ranks 9th and Schalk 22nd. A.J. Pierzynski is the active leader, in 15th spot (he needs another 152 games to crack the top 10).

brp

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Re: Wes Ferrell, I’m guessing you mean only modern-era player; Kid Nichols had 8+ WAR every year age 20-24.

The answer you’re looking for is Bert Blyleven:
6.4 WAR age 20
9.9 WAR age 22
7.9 WAR age 23
6.1 WAR age 24

He has 2.2 at age 19 and “only” 4.9 at age 21.

I kept hunting for long-ago players at is was easier to rack up WAR pitching 300+ innings, but Blyleven had at least 275 IP each year between age 20 and 24.

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to brp

You’ve got it, brp.

Blyleven is the only pitcher, since 1871, with 150 IP, 10+ wins and a .500 or better record, each season aged 19-24.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

George Selkirk question: Roy Campanella and Al Rosen

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Exactly so.

Not often a keeper is kept for such a short time.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Odell Hale question: I found Jim Gilliam and Pete Rose. My PI run turned up Bobby Adams on the 400 G played at 2B and 3B lists but his BR home page shows 399 G at 2B. He played no games at SS.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Those are the three.

brp

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Really thought Ichiro would be the answer to Ben Chapman question of 11 seasons to start career at 100 OPS+ and 10 SB, but he “only” had 10.

My second guess was Barry Bonds, and it looks like he did so, unless his 484 PA as a rookie isn’t enough.

If it’s not Bonds, I don’t have another obvious guess. Rickey Henderson missed out due to his rookie year, as did Paul Molitor (also hit by an injury season); Willie Mays was interrupted.

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to brp

Not Barry.

502 PA are needed to qualify in a 162-game season (3.1 PA per game).

Here’s a hint: Chapman is the only player to do this in the live ball era.

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

I tried all the “obvious” deadball era guys – Cobb, Speaker, Collins, … and none of them worked for various reasons (usually playing time). So I cheated and did a PI search to narrow the list of names down – only 54 players have ever had 11+ seasons of 100+ OPS+ and 10+ SBs in a qualifying season, so that made it easier. Only 38 players have met those criteria in 11+ seasons since 1901, which makes it even easier. The PI is telling me that Sherry Magee had a qualifying season in 1904, despite only 387 PAs (the Phillies… Read more »

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

It is Magee.

The old qualifying standard was 100 games, regardless of the number of PA.

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Doug – I thought it was a 100 game standard, but Magee only played in 95 games in 1904.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Here is explanation on B-R re: batters’ qualifying seasons. – Prior to 1920, a player must have appeared in 60% of the team’s games to qualify for a title. This number was rounded to the nearest integer. – From 1920-1937, a player must have appeared in 100 games. – From 1938-1944, the AL used 400 at bats and the NL stayed with 100 games – From 1945-1956, a player must have 2.6 at bats per team game. Note however, that from 1951-1954 a player could lead if they still led after the necessary number of hitless at bats were added… Read more »

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Magglio Ordonez is the answer to the Kreevich question. 1999-2003, hit .301 or better every year.

Robin Ventura is one answer to the Red Rolfe question.

Gene Tenace was my first thought for the Babe Phelps question, but he last played in 1983. Chris Hoiles.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

All correct.

Quite a difference in the number of games managed for the other two answers to the Red Rolfe question.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Lefty Gomez question: Here’s one; Wilbur Cooper and Hooks Dauss of the Detroit Tigers in 1926.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Cooper-Dauss is wrong. They both pitched for the Tigers in 1926 but they reached 2500 IP before they became Tiger teammates. But it looks like Lefty Gomez and Bobo Newsom reached 2500 IP while they were teammates on the 1943 Senators.

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

It’s not 2500 IP overall. It’s 2500 IP for the franchise that both are then playing for.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

The only expansion team with at least 2 pitchers of 2500+ IP is the Mets with Tom Seaver and Jerry Koosman. They were teammates but at the time when Koosman reached 2500 IP Seaver had already been traded to the Reds. So does that count?

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

You are correct, Richard.

Koosman and Seaver didn’t do it. My mistake.

So, no expansion teams, but I did find 13 original teams with such a pair (unless I’ve made some further errors).

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks Doug. Now it should be fairly easy to find those other 13 teams.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Here’s what I came up with:

A’s: Eddie Plank-Chief Bender
Indians: Bob Feller-Bob Lemon
Tigers: Hal Newhouser-Dizzy Trout
Pirates: Wilbur Cooper-Babe Adams
Giants: Carl Hubbell-Freddie Fitzsimmoms
Braves: Warren-Lew Burdette,Tom Glavine-John Smoltz, Greg Maddux-John Smoltz

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

@149

I guess you have all figured out that I left out Spahn.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

@161, Richard.

Those are the ones I found (total of 13 teams):
– Plank/Bender 1914 As
– Cooper/Adams 1922-24 Pirates
– Fitzsimmons/Hubbell 1937 Giants
– Newhouser/Trout 1951-52 Tigers
– Feller/Lemon 1956 Indians
– Spahn/Burdette 1962-63 Braves
– Smoltz/Glavine 2002 & 2008 Braves
– Smoltz/Maddux 2003 Braves

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

David Wells is the Monte Pearson/Yankees answer. I recognized his basic stats, but wasn’t sure that he’d tossed 9 shutouts for NYY. But he did — 5 of them in ’98, when he threw his perfect game.

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I was struck by how close Wells and Pearson were on so many of their totals, despite how different their SO/BB ratios are.

More than one way to skin a cat, or modern hitters are a lot better than in the past? I’m inclined to lean more to the latter.

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

I misread the Murphy question – I thought Doug was looking for the Red Sox pitcher who eclipsed Murphy’s team record (Manny Delcarmen, 2007, 44 games). The guy who first broke Murphy’s record does hold a dubious place in Red Sox history – he was part of what some might call a historically lopsided trade. What might be much more useful information is that he was the last card I needed to complete my 1988 Score set. In looking up the most games without a decision the current season record holder is Randy Choate, with 80 games. What interests me… Read more »

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Wow, that was some trade. Talk about the one that got away.

Yet, Boston still got 36 WAR in 15 years (1991-2005) from their first basemen. Less than half of what the other guy got, but not a complete disaster.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Lombardi question: Ted Simmons
Powell question: Irish Meusel
Hoag question: Doc Cramer
Werber question: Frankie Frisch

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Correct.

There’s a second answer to the Powell question.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Monte Irvin (and a few more words to post this).

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Remaining quiz answers. – Johnny Murphy question: first pitcher to exceed Murphy’s 32 games in a season without a decision – Larry Anderson (1982) – Frankie Pytlak question: other catchers without a 500 PA season who batted .300 in four 250 PA seasons (Bubbles Hargrave, Don Slaught) – Jo-Jo Moore question: Giant between Moore and Barry Bonds with four consecutive seasons with 100 games in left field – Gary Matthews (1973-76) – Al Hollingsworth question: HOF pitcher to start a career with 3 seasons with a losing record and less than 10 wins – Red Ruffing – Bill Swift question:… Read more »

ATarwerdi96

10 years ago

Dennis Eckersley, Wes Ferrell, Kevin Brown

Abbott

10 years ago

Killebrew, Winfield, Dean

dr. remulak

10 years ago

Gomez, Boudreau, Campanella.

Paul E

10 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Winfield

10 years ago

Adding onto Doug’s player titbits: Red Rolfe scored 143 Runs for the 1937 Yankees despite an 86 OPS+. That is by far the most Runs scored for a sub 100 OPS+ season. Woody English is next with an equally impressive 131 Runs and 72 OPS+ in 1929. Maury Wills crossed home plate 130 times with a 99 OPS+ in 1962. Odell Hale is the only Indians ballplayer with at least 250 games manning second and third base (Hale has 400+ at both). Billy Werber’s 29 stolen bases in 1935 is the fifth lowest total to lead the majors in the… Read more »

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

More tidbits: Jo-Jo Moore in 1935 had 201 hits and a .295 BA making him the first player with more than 200 hits and a sub .300 BA. It has happened 11 times since. Ernie Lombardi was the first player to hit into 30+ double-plays. Wes Ferrell is one of two pitcher with more than one walk-off HR. He and Kirby Higbe each had two such HRs. Ben Chapman is one of two ALers to lead his league in CS for 4 consecutive seasons. Ricky Henderson is the other. Al Hollingsworth has the second longest surname in the ML. Twelve… Read more »

David Horwich

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

A caveat on Lombardi being the first to have 30+ GIDP is that we only have GIDP data from 1933-present in the NL, 1939-present in the AL.

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

The story goes that in the mid-1980s, the White Sox signed Dave Wehrmeister because someone in the front office wanted a big name pitcher.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Concerning the Monte Pearson feat, Steve Carlton achieved it in 1972-1973 and Frank Baumann did so in 1960-1961. On Pearson’s Standard Pitching chart on BR his 1933 ERA is in bold indicating a league leader but the BR leaderboard does not list him as the leader. He had only 135 IP that year and I don’t know what the qualifying requirement was then. Something is amiss on BR.

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Good catch Richard. Mel Harder also has black ink for the season in question. Here’s what Baseball Reference has to say on their ERA Champions page: “The Pitching/ERA Titles listed are those players recognized by their leagues at the completion of the season as having the lowest earned run average in the league. Subsequent statistical research and rules changes may mean that we list a different pitcher as having the lowest earned run average for that season. When applicable we will give “black ink” measurement credit to both the league pitching champ and the player we believe had the lowest… Read more »

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

According to the information on B-R, qualification for their ERA leaderboard is one IP per team game (scheduled, not played), and qualification for their W-L% leaderboard is decisions equaling or exceeding .098 x scheduled team games (16 for 162 games, 15 for 154 games). So, Pearson’s 1933 season (10-5 record) qualified for the W-L% leaderboard but not for the ERA leaderboard. Thus, I concur that his 1933 ERA should not be bolded on his player page. Just speculation, but possibly it is bolded (erroneously) because his season did qualify for the W-L% title. Another explanation is the B-R leaderboard shows… Read more »

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I seem to recall that before 1950 or so, qualifying the ERA title was based on CGs rather than IP.

10 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

That seems to be it oneblankspace. A quick google suggests that ten complete games was the threshold, which Pearson just met.

David P

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

RJ and OBS: Not quite. The 10 CG threshold was a National League rule. The American League, on the other hand, continually switched back and forth between 10 CG and 45 innings pitched. The 45 inning rule was in effect in the AL in 1933.

A summary of the early ERA rules can be found in the next-to-last comment here:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/earlier-versions-ootp-general-discussions/207839-qualifications-batting-title-other-rate-statistics.html

I also found a PDF of the original SABR research article by Dan Levitt but for some reason only part of the article is available:

http://research.sabr.org/journals/files/SABR-National_Pastime-25.pdf

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Thank you David P! I’m going to have to bookmark those links.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

45 innings pitched. Really.

A September call-up inserted into the rotation could be the ERA champ!

Or, as in Red Embree (1945) or Max Lanier (1946), a youngster who starts hot and then gets a draft call (I’m guessing) or possibly gets injured. Both had identical 1.93 ERAs, league-leading marks in many seasons, out of the gate, before their seasons came to an early end.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

That SABR publication is a collection of articles that were printed and scanned (with character recognition) into a PDF. But, whoever did it missed 3 pages, which were the last 3 pages of the article by Dan Levitt on his research into ERA qualification standards. So, unsure of what the AL qualification was from 1930 to 1945, except that it wasn’t 10 CG nor 1 IP per team game. However, the article does indicate that the 1929 AL ERA leader was recognized as Tom Zachary with his 2.48 mark in 119.2 IP. Yet no black ink for Tom on his… Read more »

David P

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Doug: I was assuming that the person who posted on OOTP had access to the original SABR article.

BTW, Dan Levitt does have a website if anyone wants to contact him:

http://daniel-levitt.com/

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Ferrell, Tiant, Winfield

aweb

10 years ago

Brown
Boudreau
Killebrew

Not much interesting new this time. Like some others, I’m not sure being a really good hitter (for a pitcher) is exactly what a “Great” pitcher looks like to me. Making imaginary teams from inductees, Ferrell’s hitting would look terrible (league average hitter, but way below the CoG average), just less than most pitchers.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to aweb

Yes, but the barometer is not CoG hitters, or even league average hitters. The barometer is whether Ferrell provided more offensive value than would be expected from a pitcher. And, of course, he did. A lot more.

Put the package together, you’ve got over 60 WAR, about the same as Tiant (Ferrell might, in fact, be worth a bit more than that, since his 12.8 batting WAR would be higher if measured against the replacement level for a pitcher batting, which is Ferrell’s real value to his team). Worth a look, at any rate.

aweb

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

I suppose, but the barometer for the CoG hitting standards can be the CoG if I want it to be…this is all about splitting hairs with players groups like this one.

I’m not WAR sorting, not all the time anyway. I can acknowledge that Ferrell’s hitting provided actual value, without really being impressed by the nature of that value (much better than awful hitters), right? I have a few weird standards, like giving credit for great defence, but tending to discount terrible defence (hence voting for Killebrew often) as more of the managers fault, at times.

David P

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug #81 – Actually Ferrell’s hitting WAR does come from only measuring him against replacement level pitcher batting.

His Rbat is -6 so if he were being measured against all hitters he’d basically have zero hitting WAR. He ends up with 12.8 batting WAR because of the position adjustment for pitchers’ batting.

David P

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Actually I need to correct my #134.

Rbat is calculated against average, not replacement. A -6 Rbat over 1345 PAs would probably be about 3-4 batting WAR. Which is what Ferrell would have if he were only being compared against hitters.

The rest of Ferrell’s hitting WAR comes from the pitching adjustment. For Ferrell it’s 143 runs over 1345 PA so about 60-70 runs per “full batting season”. That’s a rate that 5 or 6 times higher than any other position (and rightfully so).

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Thanks for the correction, David P.

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to David P

Think of it this way. He could have .280/.351/.446/.797 slashed his way as a roughly league average left fielder (he did play 13 games there) and by career PA’s he did that for about two seasons. That’s considerable value with the bat. Now, move that bat to short and you’d value it a whole lot more. Of course the pitchers mound is the ultimate defensive position so as a league average defensive pitcher (ahem), that’s a pretty reasonable bat. Considering what Babe Ruth had done, you wonder why the Indians didn’t move him to the field when he hit 9… Read more »

JamesS

10 years ago

Murray, Alomar, Lombardi

BillH

10 years ago

Murray, Alomar, Winfield

Darien

10 years ago

Killebrew, Eckersley, and Dean

Stephen

10 years ago

Killebrew, Dean, Boudreau

Hartvig

10 years ago

I’m with the good Doctor @ 35 on Ferrell- I think he belongs in the HOF but at least as of this moment I think he falls short of the COG. In an era that is already far over-represented in the HOF- including Lombardi & Gomez- he and Stan Hack are the 2 that I think are truly worthy that were overlooked. So unless someone is able to change my mind about Ferrell before the deadline to change our votes mine is: Campanella, Minoso, Tiant By the way- if there’s someone out there who’s not familiar with the players from… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I’m trying to assess just what his added-value as a hitter really was. Getting any value out of the 9-hole is big added value, but how much is being ‘great’ in that regard helping to win ballgames? Greatest hitting Pitchers since 1893, by WAR: 15.0 .. Red Ruffing 13.3 .. George Mullin 13.3 .. Walter Johnson 12.8 .. Wes Ferrell 11.6 .. George Uhle 11.3 .. Bob Lemon 9.7 … Early Wynn 9.0 … Don Newcombe 8.6 … Doc Crandall 8.5 … Schoolboy Rowe 8.2 … Mike Hampton 8.0 … Bob Gibson _______ Of course, differences in PA among that… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

For his career, he slashed this out of the 9-hole:

.281 .352 .456 .808

Not sure how to search for the league averages in this category, but as M Sullivan pointed out above (90), this was like having a DH in a pitcher’s league.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo: Go to the Team Batting Split Finder, set the years to 1927-1941, NL Teams Together, select Batting Order Positions and Batting 9th. The Results Sheet presents all the info year by year.

Richard Chester

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Of course I meant AL Teams Together, Ferrell had only a few PA in the NL.

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Oh! That is just delightful. Thanks.

So, Ferrell thumped an .808 OPS from the 9-hole.
The AL totals for each year of his career ranged between:

.459 – .565

dr. remulak

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

A fellow named Ruth was a pretty good lefty pitcher as well.

latefortheparty

10 years ago

Lou Boudreau
Kevin Brown
Rick Reuschel

Bill Johnson

10 years ago

Killebrew, Lombardi, and Medwick

10 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Lou Boudreau.

mosc

10 years ago

VOTE CHANGE:

Ferrell, Campanella, Boudreau

Dropping Murray but sticking with him and Reuschel as my COG borderline duo.

J.R.

10 years ago

Killebrew, Lefty Gomez, Dizzy Dean

David W

10 years ago

Medwick, Dean, Campanella.

Kirk

10 years ago

Minoso, Boudreau & Alomar

Hub Kid

10 years ago

Boudreau, Ferrell, Minoso Ferrell falls into the same category as Minoso and Tiant for me: borderline COG case who was overlooked by the HOF, despite being above the HOF standard. When it comes to borderline COG cases, if they are not in the HOF, that adds to their COG case for me and vice versa; that’s why I vote for Minoso, Tiant, and now Ferrell; and why I didn’t vote, for instance, for Whitey Ford. Plus, thanks for the HR by pitcher table, Voomo; it is swell to see that Ferrell has a superlative achievement to his career, along with… Read more »

David P

10 years ago

Lots of discussion of Ferrell’s pitching and hitting but none of his “character”. “When the manager, Bucky Harris, came out to relieve him, not only did he refuse to hand over the ball; when he was finally persuaded to return to the dugout he punched himself in the jaw with his fist and slammed his head against a concrete wall. He had to be forcibly restrained to prevent him from doing further harm to himself. During the 1936 season, Ferrell walked off the field in disgust and refused to continue pitching twice in the space of five days, angered each… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to David P

What? A good punch in the nose was the standard way of handling a disagreement back then. Once again, our futuristic feminized standard of behavior is being anachronistically applied to the Real Men of yesteryear.

Babe Ruth once knocked out the home plate umpire after a base on balls to the first batter of the game.

His replacement pitcher wasn’t rattled by the barbarism.
Nay, in fact, he retired 27 in a row.

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to David P

I guess I always thought Brian Wilson’s tirades were somewhat charming though if he had broken his hand I wouldn’t have had much sympathy. Violence towards inanimate objects out of self frustration is hardly the greatest vice in baseball history. Pissing off teammates isn’t good but that’s not really that rare.

Mike G.

10 years ago

Brown, Tiant, Ferrell