Circle of Greats: 1915 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 70th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1915. Rules and lists are after the jump.

This round’s new group of 1915-born players joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

The new group of 1915-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EDT Friday, September 12, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EDT Wednesday, September 10.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1915 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1915 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The eleven current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The 1915 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Lou Boudreau (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kevin Brown (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roy Campanella  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dennis Eckersley (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Minnie Minoso (eligibility guaranteed for  this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1915, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Walker Cooper
Jeff Heath
Bob Swift
Hal Wagner
George Case
Joe Gordon
Eddie Stanky
Roy Weatherly
Stan Spence

Stan Spence makes it on to the eligible list with just nine years in the majors, based on a career 22.5 Wins Above Replacement. Among center fielders in the 1940s, only the DiMaggios, Joe and Dom, had more WAR.

Pitchers (born in 1915, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Dizzy Trout
Max Lanier
Ken Heintzelman
Kirby Higbe
Sid Hudson
Red Barrett
Buck Ross
Ted Wilks

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BillH
BillH
10 years ago

Whitey Ford, Roberto Alomar, Eddie Murray

(For the early voting lead)

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Kevin Brown, Craig Biggio, Whitey Ford

Doug
Doug
10 years ago

This year’s tidbits. – Walker Cooper’s nickname of “Walk” was evidently an abbreviation of his name, as walking was something Cooper didn’t do. Among pre-expansion live ball hitters with 5000 PAs and more strikeouts than walks, Cooper’s 309 BBs are the second lowest total, trailing only Pete Suder’s 288 free passes (25 years later, after the free-swinging late 70s and early 80s, Cooper was outside the top 10 on that list). – Dizzy Trout’s 33 CG in 1944 is the Tigers’ franchise record for the live ball era. Trout and teammate Hal Newhouser each logged 300+ IP and won 25… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ken Heintzelman question: Kent Tekulve is one of the relievers to pitch 150+ games with both the Phillie and the Pirates.

Kirby Higbe question: Russ Ortiz (2003) and Carlos Zambrano (2006) led the league in wins and walks.

Dizzy Trout question: neither of the catchers were teenagers, but when Jack Quinn pitched to Al Lopez on the ’31-’32 Dodgers the age difference was 25 yrs 1 mo, and when Jamie Moyer pitched to Wilin Rosario on the 2012 Rockies the difference was 26 yrs 3 mos.

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Good stuff, David.

I wasn’t thinking of the two batteries you mentioned when I stipulated a teenager. Rather it was to avoid the easy one of Satchel Page and whoever he pitched to in 1965 (it was Billy Bryan, 32 years younger than Satch).

Other non-teenager batteries that best Trout/Zupo are these from 1971:
– Hoyt Wilhelm/Earl Williams (just shy of 26 years)
– Hoyt Wilhelm/Bob Didier (26 yrs, 7 months)

Wilhelm was also just shy of 24 years older than Tom Egan when they played together on the 1969 Angels.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Jack Quinn and Jimmie Foxx came close on 7-19-26. Quinn pitched 8 innings and was removed from the game. Foxx caught the 9th inning. Their age difference was 24 years, 3 months and 21 days.

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

But those two did hook up on 7-11-27 (both started the game) when Foxx was still shy of his 20th birthday.

So, that’s two of them. One more.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Nolan Ryan pitched to Ivan Rodriguez in 1991. I-Rod was 19 and the age difference was 24 years and 10 months.

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Tekluve is the right answer. There is one more.

donburgh
donburgh
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Does it have to be relief appearances? Grant Jackson pitched 150+ games for both Keystone State teams, but he had 70 starts for the Phillies.

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  donburgh

Yes, Jackson is the other one.

I was calling Jackson a reliever as that was his primary role for his career and for his time with the Pirates. But, as a Phillie, he had two years in relief, one as a starter and one as a swingman (mostly as a starter that year until he fell from favor and was first dropped from the rotation, and then shipped to Baltimore).

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

“Who is the only other player with a searchable pinch-hit HR in the 9th inning or later and a following walk-off HR?”

Are we counting Raúl Ibañez in the 2012 postseason?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Brian McCann did it on 5-17-11. He hit a game-tying HR in the bottom of the 9th and the game-winner in the bottom of the 11th, Braves over Astros.

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

“Wagner posted a .000/.000/.000 slash with no runs scored in 10+ PA in the 1946 World Series, joining Birdie Tebbetts (1940) as catchers with those totals for a losing World Series team. Who is the only catcher to do the same on a winning World Series team?”

Billy Sullivan! I’ve had his player page bookmarked for ages because of his interesting postseason line, but I’ve never had cause to bring it up before now. I can’t believe it’s finally paid off, hah.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Additional tidbits: Kirby Higbe hit walk-off HR while playing for the Pirates on 9-11-47 and 8-27-48. That makes him one of two pitchers with more than one such game. Wes Ferrell is the other, he also had two such games. Jeff Heath is one of 7 players to have 20+ 2B, 3B and HR in the same season. He did it in 1941, 32 2B, 20 3B and 24 HR. Walker Cooper had 10 RBI on 7-6-49. That is the game record for catchers. Bob Swift is the first searchable player to have a walk-off HBP after the end of… Read more »

RJ
RJ
10 years ago

That’s a great story about George Case and Jesse Owens. I’m slightly suspicious of the race time though, given that Owens’ world record at the time was 10.2 seconds!

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

might have been a running start

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

But Owens would’ve run a 10.2 hundred METERS; this race was in YARDS. Stands to reason it’d be faster, even without running his hardest.

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Oops! Didn’t spot that. Makes more sense now.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

well, he probably wouldn’t run a 10.2 100m in baseball spikes on outfield grass in a exposition race. But I’d guess he could manage a 10.8 which would be the equivalent of a 9.9 100y.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Another question could be how accurate was that 100 yard distance.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Stan Spence: Kirby Puckett might not count. If you had said, “20 or fewer,” then he’d be an answer, so I’m using him for “extra credit.” Not sure if Kiki Cuyler counts, but I’ll venture him as a guess. He definitely meets the batting requirement; not sure if he meets the positional one (depends a bit on what your parameters were to be counted as a CF). I’ll throw out one that MUST be right: Tris Speaker. Robin Yount is another one, but that’s a SNEAKY answer, Doug. Almost skipped him because it’s so hard to think of him as… Read more »

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Actually, the question was to name players since Spence with 4 such seasons. So that rules out Cuyler and Speaker (Tris is one of those four HOFers who preceded Spence and matched him on that stat line though he, of course, had way more than 5 of those seasons).

The positional requirement is 50% of games in CF. Neither Yount nor Puckett are right.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Okay. I see. I guess my reading comprehension is poor.

I still want half credit on Puckett, though. He’s REALLY close to getting there. Cesar Cedeno is another that’s really close, but doesn’t get there. He’s actually not QUITE as close as Puckett.

Also, Ken Griffey (Sr.) is one of them. Chet Lemon is another. That’s all I’ve got. That’s two; how many left?

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Lemon is one. But not Griffey Sr. who had only one season (1981) when he was primarily in CF.

There are two more.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Lenny Dykstra and Al Oliver are the others.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bob Swift question: Clyde McCullough is the answer. 463 PA in his rookie year in 1941, 3461 PA career-wise.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug:

Sorry to be a nit-picker, but Gordon had 84 RBIs in 1949, and only made the century mark four times. Maybe you got your columns mixed up.

In 1951, though, Gordon, at age 36, led the PCL in HRs with 43 and RBIs with 136 while managing the Sacramento team—to a 7th place finish, unfortunately.

Doug
Doug
10 years ago

Thanks for spotting that, nsb.

I sure butchered that one. About the only thing I got right was Kent having 8 seasons of 100 RBI. But, he’s the ONLY second baseman to do that.

Gordon had 103 OPS+ in 1949, not 103 RBI. But, still not sure what query I might have been running to make him the 5th second baseman doing something.

So, I’ll come up with something else for Joe.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

This is a bit of stretch since Gordon missed two wartime years right in the middle, but Joe has nine consecutive seasons played of 12 fielding runs or more. No other fielder in history has been that consistent.

It’s even more impressive considering Gordon played in the pre-PBP era. Defensive numbers from that era are more heavily regressed, so we’re really getting a bottom estimate of how good Gordon was in the field. DRA has him at +190 runs, BTW.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

One of these players has this single-season batting line:

.271/.317/.429/.745 OPS /107 OPS+ / AS,MVP-2 with a homerun percentage of 3.76%

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

Dizzy’s bat was no wet fish. Trout homered in 11 consecutive seasons (1942-52). Only pitchers with longer homer streaks were Bob Lemon (12), Red Ruffing (15) and Warren Spahn (17).

Steven
Steven
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Bob Swift was the catcher when Eddie Gaedel had his famous base-on-balls as Bill Veeck’s midget in 1951. In 1966, he replaced Chuck Dressen as interim manager for the Tigers. Both Dressen and Swift passed away that same year.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Re Jeff Heath: When I was looking at his player page I had two thoughts: 1) AL Rookie of the Year for 1938; 2) This looks just like Vada Pinson’s player page, except for the SB and CS columns. Heath, as Bill James discusses in the NBJHBA, performed a revolting racist act in 1947 concerning a landmark event, the first HR by a former Negro League player in American League history. Willard Brown hit it with a bat borrowed from Heath. Afterwards Heath smashed the bat to pieces and probably destroyed Brown’s big league career as he did so. What… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Interest for the quizzes seems to have died out so here are some more answers.
Ted Wilks question: Dice-K, Kelvim Escobar, Curt Schilling, Rick Sutcliffe and Dick Ruthven
Roy Weatherly question: Joe D. and Orlando Cepeda
George Case question: Lou Brock and Ichiro

Doug
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

More answers. Dizzy Trout question: 3rd battery (after Quinn/Foxx and Ryan/Rodriguez) incl. a teenager with age difference > 24 yrs, 2 mos – Von McDaniel and Walker Cooper on 8-18-57. Max Lanier question: retired post-war non-HOFers (and not on 2015 HOF ballot) with ERA and FIP below 3.00 in 1000+ IP thru age 30 – Ron Guidry, Dean Chance, Gary Peters Sid Hudson question: post-war pitchers losing 17 in 200+ IP with W-L% under .400, BB/9 under 3.0 and HR/9 under 0.5 – Joe Magrane (1990), Steve Rogers (1976), Ken Johnson (1963). Johnson is the only one to also have… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

PaWaa Here is Wins Above Average, expressed as a rate stat, by dividing it into Plate Appearances (PaWaa): 166.4 … (7304) Lou Boudreau 176.2 … (6537) Joe Gordon 241.8 … (9235) Kenny Lofton 267.8 … (5436) Eddie Stanky 287.8 … (7712) M Minoso 288.0 … (5559) Jeff Heath 306.7 … (4815) Roy Campanella 322.0 … (10400)Rob Alomar 350.0 … (9833) Harmon Killer 435.7 … (12504)Craig Biggio 467.9 … (4445) Stan Spence 474.8 … (12817)Steady Eddie 483.4 … (5076) Walker Cooper ____________________________ IpWaa: 80.3 …. (3256) Kevin Brown 102.5 … (1619) Max Lanier 107.3 … (912) .Ted Wilks 107.4 … (3286)… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Joe Gordon was in the military during his ages 29 and 30 seasons. Over a third of Boudreau’s WAA was accumulated during those age seasons. Excluding those two years of Boudreau’s career, their career WAA totals are 37.1 for Gordon vs 28.1 for Boudreau. As a rate stat, Gordon ranks higher as well.

I’m not sure Gordon belongs but I’m fairly confident he was a better player than Boudreau, or at least maintained his best level a lot longer.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Boudreau was Gordon’s Manager, while they were double play partners.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

This stat obviously favors fellas who didn’t have a long decline (Boudreau and Gordon with roughly 7000 PA). And it points out the player with the “long” career (Lofton), who remained valuable throughout. So, a couple of things. First, here is Lofton through the season where his PA is in between Gordon and Boudreau: 166.4 … (7304) Lou Boudreau 176.2 … (6537) Joe Gordon 199.6 … (6825) Kenny Lofton Not too shabby. Now, here are the other “long” career guys on our ballot (our accumulators), through the season closest to Kenny’s 9235 PA: 241.4 … (8957) Roberto Alomar 241.8 …… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Joe Gordon seems a good candidate to me; taking into account time lost to the war, he seems on a par with the other 2nd-tier second basemen either in the CoG (Grich, Sandberg, Whitaker) or on the ballot (Alomar, Biggio). I’m a little leery of taking his defensive numbers at face value, but as far as I know his defense has always been well-regarded. But what I’m wondering is, how many second baseman are we going to put in the CoG? We’ve already elected 6: Carew, Grich, Morgan, J Robinson, Sandberg, and Whitaker. Collins, Hornsby, and Lajoie are mortal locks,… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

David, does it really matter if we have 14 second basemen? We shouldn’t expect the distribution of great players across history to be perfectly spread across all positions equally. I think it’s more random variation than anything.

For all we know, we could re-run the past 100 years or so of baseball and have 14 SS make our list, or 14 third basemen. I wouldn’t expect it to be first basemen, as they are generally less well-rounded players and don’t have much value beyond hitting.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I suppose whether it matters or not is up to each individual voter. I certainly don’t expect we’ll end up with the same number of players for each position, but it also seems to me like the numbers shouldn’t get *too* imbalanced. I guess this is a something of an esthetic preference on my part.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Peak naturally values players that can contribute in multiple areas more naturally than those who contribute in fewer areas longer. If you want to have lots of guys that were at the very top of the league in value, you’re going to favor productive hitters who could also contribute at a defensively significant position. I tend to think we give too much RFIELD to outfielders as it stands. A lot of them have considerably inflated stats (hi Walker) or unduly punished (Winfield) by very suspect measuring. Infielders do get some stat increases from being behind a ground ball pitcher but… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

David H – I’m not sure I’d consider all of those guys second baseman, even if that’s the position they primarily played in the majors (Carew was actually evenly split between 2nd and 1st, both in terms of games and value). Robinson was a shortstop in the Negro Leagues but there was obviously no way the Dodgers were going to make Reese move to accommodate Robinson. Had he signed with another team and continued playing short, I’m 99.9% certain he’s still be in the COG. Grich was also a shortstop originally. He was moved because the Orioles had one of… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

True, many of these players either could have played or did play different positions, and there’s nothing that says we have to categorize a player by his primary position. That’s just how I like to do it. 🙂

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

Every kid’s either a shortstop, center fielder, or a catcher. Very few guys come up thinking they’re really something other than those.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

mosc, I wouldn’t say “very few.” I mean, the naturally big kid who can hit a country mile is a 1B or corner guy. I doubt Prince (or Cecil, for that matter) Fielder came up thinking, “I know for sure I’m gonna be a shortstop.” But I’d agree with the basic sentiment. Either you’re a catcher (for which you could have any body type), a big guy (destined to play on one of the “corners”), or an athlete, in which case you come up as a SS or CF. I believe it’s still true that there’s never been a 2B… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

Dr. Doom – Baseball Reference lists 23 second baseman taken in the first round, with Chase Utley being by far the best of the bunch and Rickie Weeks (#2) being the highest drafted.

As a comparison, there have been 11 shortstops taken with the overall #1 pick.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

Great point, DavidP! So the number of COG second basemen will likely end up being high, but that’s at least partially because a couple of those guys very well may have been shortstops had they played for another team.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

To throw my hat into the ring, if everything WERE even, we’d end up with about 10 at each position. I guess if one 3B, one LF, one RF, and one 1B all go to 2B, I don’t see why that’s a problem. We should expect some of that. I can’t imagine we’ll get anywhere NEAR 10 catchers, so I guess I just don’t see 14 2B as any sort of gross injustice.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Well, I wouldn’t call it an injustice…we may well end up with only 7 third baseman (we have 6 now, but there’s really only one decent candidate coming up down the road, and no 3Bman has received significant redemption-round support).

Anyway, I don’t feel *strongly* about the question of positional scarcity, but I figured it was at least worth bringing up for discussion.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I haven’t given up on Nettles

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I’d like to see Nettles make it, too, but I think he’s a long shot.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

David, I’m taking the blame for you being painted as a guy who feels strongly about this. I think my @11 comment was the driver here. Sorry.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

No worries, bstar. We generated some interesting discussion along the way, and one of the things I really value about this site is that if people beg to differ with you, they do so in a civilized manner.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I once made an comment about how if we were to keep the same ratio of position players to pitchers that the HOF has that would work out to roughly an 80/30 split, or 10 players for each position. When I made a comment that there seemed to be a bit of a dearth of qualified center fielders even though that was one of the “best athlete” positions mosc pointed out that a number of players started there careers there (Barry Bonds, Al Kaline, Andre Dawson, Sam Crawford and many others) only to switch positions either when an even better… Read more »

brp
brp
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

What position do we consider Pete Rose? 1B, LF, 3B, 2B, RF? Is Stan Musial a 1B or LF or RF? What about Paul Molitor – I’m loathe to just say he’s a DH when the guy played 1B, 2B, 3B in his career. Is Yount a CF or SS? Is Banks a SS or 1B? Is Frank Robinson a RF or LF?

I’m not entirely certain how much it matters. It doesn’t seem to me like we’ll wind up with some horrible imbalance with like 20 RFs and 6 catchers, so I think it’s fine.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  brp

Back before birtelcom gave up on positions, I campaigned for Molitor to get listed as UI, utility infielder. I’d discount time at first base in particular as guys get stashed there so I’d consider Carew and Banks 4 and 6 respectively. I’d consider most outfielders as OF rather than LF/CF/RF but there are a few guys who spent >75% of their career in center I’d call center fielders rather than outfielders. There were guys that played almost exclusively in right (Walker) or left (Williams) but to me that’s just outfield anyway.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  brp

brp @ 46 –

Rose I consider a utility player; Musial, LF, Molitor DH (which I lump together w/1B), Yount and Banks SS, Robinson RF. This is just my own way of looking at it.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago
Reply to  brp

Banks seems easy to me, despite the even split in games played. If you split his career after 1961, he is two guys: Guy 1 is an absolute lights out inner circle level performer with a very short career at SS and only a few games at 3rd or OF, one who is an easy hall of famer (if eligible) and borderline COGer on those 8 years and a cup of coffee alone. 54.8 WAR (at 6.8 per full year) and 35.7 WAA. Basically 8 straight years of MVP/nearMVP production. Guy 2 is more like Joe Carter than like a… Read more »

KalineCountry Ron
KalineCountry Ron
10 years ago

Campy
Minnie
Dizzy

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Lofton (a strong second place last time and no obvious newcomer)
Brown (Looks like the best pitcher on the ballot to me)
Killebrew (I’ve voted for him off and on, back on this time)

Mo
Mo
10 years ago

Brown ford biggio

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Alomar, Campanella, Minoso

Steve
Steve
10 years ago

Whitey Ford; Harmon Killebrew; Roy Campanella

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

My third spot is between two guys for whom WWII becomes an issue. I’m interested to read the discussion this round, because my ballot could definitely change. For now, I’m voting:

Kevin Brown
Craig Biggio
Joe Gordon

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Ahhh!!!! I’m insanely in need of a vote change! I guess I had Biggio on the mind when I wrote this, but he wasn’t supposed to be on the ballot. Here’s the change:

Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton (not Biggio)
Joe Gordon

RJ
RJ
10 years ago

Walker Cooper led all catchers in WAR in the 1940s, with 19.4. I would guess that figure is the of the lowest totals for a player who led the league in their position over a decade.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Wally Schang had 23+ WAR in the 1910’s but played a fair bit of positions other than catcher as well. Ray Schalk played only catcher but only had 18.9 WAR. Roger Bresnahan had a little more than 11 WAR in the 10’s.

But Chief Meyers played only catcher and had 22 WAR during the decade. So you’re probably right about Cooper but not by as large a margin as I would have imagined.

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Eckersley

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Killebrew, Campanella, Gordon.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Kevin Brown, Joe Gordon, Kenny Lofton

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals:

Brown 43.3
Boudreau 42.3
Lofton 39.3
Gordon 37.1
Alomar 37.1
Biggio 36.3
Eckersley 34.3
Murray 33.7
Killebrew 33.0
Minoso 30.6
Ford 29.3
Trout 26.2
Campanella 19.2
Cooper 15.0

Gordon might’ve sacrificed 10 WAA during WWII and was done at 35. He belongs with the other 2B we’ve elected.

Brown, Gordon, Boudreau

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Gordon has slightly more ‘WAA excluding negative seasons’ than Biggio in roughly half the number of Plate Appearances.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Gordon was an insanely consistent player delivering value in all areas of play. He was also a genuinely nice human being who liked taking younger players under his wing. Doby credits him with a lot of his success in MLB. from ages 24 to 33 Gordon put up a very consistent 4 WAA and 6 WAR I think it’s safe to say he was missing at least that over those two years. 45 WAA gets you in the COG as far as I’m concerned, no questions asked. That’s somewhere in between Whitaker and Carew… while retiring after age 35 (11… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I think you’re being wildly inconsistent regarding Gordon and Boudreau. Here you’re suggesting Gordon should get 100% of the credit for those missed years. 100% WAR, 100% WAA. Yet when it comes to Boudreau, you have lobbied to strike all of Lou’s WAA from 1943-45. Either players get credit for those years or they don’t. Giving it to Gordon but denying it for Boudreau is blatantly unfair. Sure, we have to discount the numbers a bit for those who played those years, but no one has argued that we shouldn’t do that. I showed two threads ago how an appropriate… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I think you CAN actually both boost Gordon, and discount Boudreau. They’re two separate arguments. You should deduct WWII credit for Newhouser, Trout, Boudreau – anyone who played through the war, because they were playing in a depleted league. We would EXPECT their performance to be better than usual, so we deduct appropriately. Gordon, on the other hand, needs to be adjusted for what he would/could/should have done in his league in normal circumstances. I suppose, if one were so inclined, one could adjust Reese’s stats for a war-time league – but that would mean an extra adjustment up, which… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Well there is an inconsistency or whatever you want to call it. He wants to strike Boudreau’s war seasons entirely. Then in comment #25 above, he wants to strike Boudreau’s age 29 and age 30 seasons because Gordon was in the war at those ages.

Geez, why don’t we just strike Boudreau’s entire career? Just seems like he has a huge ax to grind against Boudreau.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I’m not arguing against adjustments, Doom. I’m saying we can’t boost one guy’s numbers and completely omit the same years for the other guy when he actually played those years.

What you suggested is actually what I would do, boost Gordon and appropriately adjust Boudreau.

I don’t think we’re in disagreement here.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Apples to apples. You want to look at “only achieved” numbers for Gordon, compare them against Boudreau with his war years stripped. You want to compensate gordon, you STILL have to doc Boudreau because his performance those years was abnormally high by his own standard. Basically, Strip Boudreau of 43 to 45 and compare him to other guys who missed wartime. If you want to give him some credit back, give him credit by the same method: back calculate his numbers. He was a 4 WAR player in 41 and 42 and a 4 WAR player in 46 and 47.… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

And to add, all of that is a WAA argument. If you use WAR, it’s far less flattering to Boudreau who simply did not play that long.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Here’s another one. “Great” seasons are an artifical cutoff but lets say 5WAR. Outside of 43-45, how often did these guys reach 5 WAR? Gordon: 7 (5 straight before leaving for war) Reese: 8 Boudreau: 3 Boudreau’s either a 2 season wonder or a hall of famer mattering on how you look at 1943 and 1944. I already discussed Dizzy Trout’s batting line in 1944 and there are lots of examples showing the general level of competition in the league. I put Boudreau in the middle. He’s a borderline HOFer and not good enough for the COG. We’ve passed on… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Boudreau clearly changed quite a bit at the plate at age 29. The age 22 6.0 WAR season you mentioned he had 13 RBAT and outside of the war inflated years, that’s about all he hit (13,8,14,14,12 in 40, 41, 42, 46, 47) If we didn’t have any wartime numbers for Boudreau, if you simply erased them, you would have a hard time explaining why you think that 22 at age 29 and the astounding 58 the following year followed by a high of 3 the rest of his career was anything more than a player catching lightning in a… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Here’s another way of looking at it. If we take Boudreau’s non-way years Rbat/PA and apply it to his PAs during the year, we get 38.6 Rbat. He actually produced 75. Now, that 38.6 Rbat likely is an underestimate since the war just happened to coincide with Boudreau’s likely peak years. So let’s day 45 Rbat, a reduction of 30 in total. How about fielding? During the war, Boudreau avereged 7 Rfield per year. That’s less than his full career average of 7.9 Rfield per season, which includes two “seasons” of fewer than 5 PAs. Based on that I’d estimate… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

David P, I think those are pretty close to the numbers I used. I view his WAA as inflated by about 5. His WAR by about the same number only slightly higher. Giving Gordon credit during his 2 years off though you don’t have to lower Boudreau much to see a decent sized gap. As I mentioned in the results thread, I think Boudreau was a similar value player to Enos Slaughter more than he was the equal of Reese and Gordon.

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

@171 David P: I also ran those numbers earlier in the day and came to a similar conclusion. The most conservative estimate of what Boudreau may have produced during those years under normal conditions still leaves him with 38 or so WAA, which is more than any other position player on the ballot besides Lofton (and Gordon + war credit).

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

You say 38, I back calculated 37.5. Not much difference there. He had a lot of WAA. From a WAR perspective though, he’s pretty damn low. He’s only got 63 to begin with. A wartime correction of say 45 RBAT would knock him under 60 WAR. You’re talking Koufax territory for a guy that certainly didn’t come anywhere near averaging >9WAR for 4 seasons of peak. I’ll take Biggio instead. His WAA is almost at that level and his performance above replacement level production over nearly 20 years is not just meaningless. It’s a lot more than a WAA+ tie… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Mosc – I would agree that Gordon and Reese should be slotted ahead of Boudreau. That being said, we do disagree on Boudreau’s COG-worthiness. Part of it is because I believe he deserves some extra credit for managing while playing. That’s obviously a judgment call and reasonable people can disagree on how something like that should be handled.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Thought you slipped Mike Trout on there for laughs for a second before remembering we had Dizzy Trout on the ballot. WAA Trout vs Trout: 26.2 vs 20.1 Mike would have to put up two more seasons like 2014 to pass him. Though he’d still be only 24 years old when he did it. Dizzy Trout didn’t even Debut until he was 24 years old. My god. Anyway, DIZZY trout is another guy like Boudreau we need to consider had unusual wartime numbers his 1943 season exceeds all his others in WAA considerably. Outsize of 1942 to 1946 he was… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

I know I’m entertaining myself here but look at Dizzy Trout’s 1944 BATTING line:
.271/.317/.429/.745, 5 HR 24 RBI in 144 PA. This is a guy even including his inflated war year batting that had a career 56 OPS+. Now you want to tell me how the level of competition in the war years was anything like normal?

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
10 years ago

Kevin Brown
Lou Boudreau
Kenny Lofton

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Killer
Campy
Alomar

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

Ford, Campanella, Gordon

brp
brp
10 years ago

Lofton
Gordon
Murray

Danny Boy
Danny Boy
10 years ago

Murray, Campanella, & Eckersley

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Biggio, Eckersley, Murray

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

Ford, Alomar, Minoso

Jeff
Jeff
10 years ago

Biggio, Eckersley, Ford

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Murray, Biggio, Boudreau

bells
bells
10 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my statistical methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ – adding the wins above average players (rather than replacement)… Read more »

jeff hill
jeff hill
10 years ago

LOFTON, Brown, Boudreau

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Joe Gordon, Harmon Killebrew, Craig Biggio

TJay
10 years ago

Boudreau, Eck, Murray

dr. remulak
dr. remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Ford, Campanella.

Steven
Steven
10 years ago

Ford, Killebrew, Campanella.

Stubby
10 years ago

Lofton, Campy, Minoso

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Eck, Boudreau, Killebrew

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Gordon, Campanella, Minoso

By the numbers, Brown probably has the best case but I just can’t bring myself to vote for him.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago

I’m surprised by the support Campanella is getting this round — suddenly he’s the leader and with only 30 ballots cast, he already has more votes than I’ve seen him get since his first time on the ballot. That’s okay, I have him in, so good on you voters so far. Gordon looks like he probably belongs. WAR total is a bit short and he’s got 2 years when lots of guys were in WWII, OTOH his WAA is COG level, and he missed two years to the war himself. I think he probably belongs. Trout OTOH, seems to be… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

I was thinking the same things about Campy! Strange are the ripple effects following an election. We JUST had this happen with Kenny Lofton, now with Campanella. I am endlessly fascinated by our voting patterns.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Alomar, Campanella, Gordon

I’m pleasantly surprised by how well Campanella’s doing, too – I’ve voted for him every time he’s been on the ballot but one.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I’m another longtime Campanella supporter. I think people need to keep in mind with him that he started catching professionally very young. He was an early bloomer and his best years were not in the MLB, which is saying a lot considering he won 3 MVP’s there. He caught games in the negro leagues but he was also a popular draw for exhibition games and barn storming tours. It’s possible Campanella caught more games of baseball than anyone else in history outside of MLB. I think it does his legend a great disservice to discount the uniqueness of his situation.… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

This is a minor point, but it’s not clear to me that Campy won MVPs at 2 minor league levels – wikipedia shows Hank Sauer as the 1947 IL MVP, albeit without citing a specific source, and Baseball Almanac agrees.

Of course whether Campanella did or didn’t win the award is hardly going to be the deciding factor in making him CoG worthy or not…

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

See my comment @ #154. Apocryphal awards do no receiver any service.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Oh, yes, sorry, forgot to give credit where credit is due, it was nsb’s post @ 154 that sent me searching for some sort of official record of who the 1947 IL MVP was.

Anyway, I didn’t find anything definitive – Minor League Baseball’s website doesn’t seem to have the info, and it’s not clear where wikipedia or Baseball Almanac got their info. The SABR bio of Hank Sauer says he was named Minor League Player of the Year by The Sporting News in 1947, but makes no mention of a league MVP.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Apocryphal awards indeed. I just see a guy who was as good as anybody in negro league baseball at 19 years old and who lead the league in CS% ages 26-30. I’ve always held catcher’s defensive values are chronically underrated, as is any semblance of durability from baseball’s most demanding position. In my mind, he has Ozzy Smith level career defensive value and with that in your head it’s hard to say his bat was anything less than productive. Study.

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Here I think you’re definitely overstating your case Mosc. That age 19 season by Campy was far better than anything he did in the surrounding seasons. And from what I can tell, the talent distribution was quite lopsided in the Negro Leagues. Sure there were some talented players, but depth was quite limited. On the hitting end, there are 58 players listed as getting 50+ PAs in 1941. Eleven of them have an OPS lower than .500. On the pitching side, I’m seeing lots of pitchers with RA/9 over 5 and several over 7. Many of these are among the… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

mosc @ 221 – I’m willing to believe that Campanella was a fine defensive catcher, but I just don’t think that we can be confident he was as good a defensive catcher as Ozzie Smith was a defensive SS. Campy had a good defensive reputation, to be sure, but the eye test of contemporary observers is a shaky foundation on which to build (cf. Jeter’s 5 GGs). I don’t think CS% is a very good proxy for overall defensive catcher ability, especially in an era where the running game was relatively insignificant. In the years Campy led the NL in… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

David P. in 222

“And from what I can tell, the talent distribution was quite lopsided in the Negro Leagues. Sure there were some talented players, but depth was quite limited.”

How dare you?!

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Was wondering how “short” a career Boudreau and Gordon had, in a greater historical context, and for our purposes of honoring the top 85 or so position players. That ponder led to this… __________________________ 100th place all-time, in every counting stat: (also, how many active players in the top 100) WAR 69.9 … Gary Carter (4 in the top 100) WAR Position Players 63.0 … Lou Boudreau (6) PA 9692 … Willie McCovey (5) Runs 1359 … Brett Butler (6) Hits 2490 … Fred McGriff (6) Total Bases 3881 … Gary Gaetti (9) Doubles 453 …. George Davis (14) Triples… Read more »

koma
koma
10 years ago

Craig Biggio, Harmon Killebrew, Dennis Eckersley

Mike G.
Mike G.
10 years ago

Brown, Eckersley, Lofton

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Seeing Ken Heintzelman’s name reminded me of a discussion we had on HHS a while back. When Saltalamacchia and Middlebrooks were Red Sox teammates we were wondering if they were the two teammates with the greatest combined number of letters in their surnames, which is 26 in their case. I don’t remember what the conclusion was. But I do remember that Heintzelman was once a teammate of Ken Raffensberger, a total of 24 letters. I wondered if perhaps they were the two pitcher teammates with the greatest number of combined letters. I got a list of every ML pitcher from… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago

The story goes that the White Sox signed Dave Wehrmeister because someone in the front office asked for a “big-name pitcher.” I saw a Sox-Brewers game at County Stadium where another big-name pitcher got in the game; the scoreboard, with the player’s name and position, listed him as CLUTTERBUCKP .

Brent
Brent
10 years ago

My recollection is that Jason Stark addressed something about teammates with long last names once and Mark Grudzielanek (12 letters) was prominent in that column. I just cannot remember who the teammate was.

Brent
Brent
10 years ago
Reply to  Brent

It was probably Todd Hollandsworth (13 letters).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

In light of my vote change @100, here’s an updated standings: 13 – Roy Campanella 10 – Kevin Brown 9 – Whitey Ford, Joe Gordon, Harmon Killebrew, Kenny Lofton 8 – Craig Biggio, Dennis Eckersley 6 – Roberto Alomar, Lou Boudreau, Eddie Murray 5 – Minnie Minoso 1 – Dizzy Trout A theory: Joe Gordon is taking away Kenny Lofton’s votes. Lofton should have easily paced this group, based on our last ballot. Yet, with one one significant newcomer (Gordon), Lofton has moved back in the pack. It’s still early, admittedly, but it looks like what’s going on to me.… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Dr. Doom – Theories are easily tested. 🙂 Looks like it’s simply a matter of Campy voters showing up early and Lofton voters not showing up yet. All 9 people who voted for Campy last time have already voted in this election. He’s gained 2 votes from people who didn’t vote in the last election, one entirely new voter, and 1 vote from a person who voted for Reese and Slaughter last time. As for Lofton, he’s only “lost” one vote so far. Interestingly, that person had Slaughter on their last ballot which means that they dropped Lofton and added… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

“Theories are easily tested.”

True; IF one is willing to actually go back and test them. But I didn’t wanna. I’d rather speculate wildly and allow you to do the dirty work. 🙂

Thanks for the insights.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

As a fellow half-sicilian, I’ve always been a fan of Poochinella.

But…
okay, black guy at the dawn of integration, I get it.
Tragic car accident paralyzed him, I get it.

But six good years to get into the Circle of Greats?
We already did that for a Dodger.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The 1955-1957 Dodgers have four members in the COG already. Campy would be their fifth, if elected, following Snider, Koufax, Reese, and Jackie Robinson. They are tied as our most-represented team. They’re actually tied with the 1970-71 Orioles: Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, and Bobby Grich. The 1976 Orioles also show up with four: Reggie Jackson, Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer, and Bobby Grich. The 1964 Milwaukee Braves have four, as well: Eddie Mathews, Hank Aaron, Warren Spahn, and a rookie named Phil Niekro. The most impressive, though, has to be the 1962-1971 Giants: Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Gaylord Perry,… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

No 20th Century Yankee teams. How the heck did they ever beat those Boys of Summer in five out of six WS? Oh, I know, it was Yankee Stadium and the the defense of Gil McDougald playing short, second and third simultaneously.

bstar
10 years ago

Whitey’s still on the ballot, the Mick is already in, and Berra will cakewalk to election once he’s on the ballot. Who else is a viable candidate from the ’50s Yanks? McDougald/Allie Reynolds aren’t really that close.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

bstar, Berra’s already in. Ford will probably get there. But that’s the brilliance of Stengel, isn’t it? Not only did they beat those Boys of Summer that much; they also beat the above-listed Braves one out of two.

bstar
10 years ago

Edit: Berra is already in also. Me and my failing memory…

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

The 1981 Phillies actually had 4 CoG members: Carlton, Rose, Sandberg, and Schmidt

The 1983 Phillies also had 4: Carlton, Morgan, Rose, and Schmidt.

Some more triads:

1976-77 Red Sox: Fisk, Jenkins, Yaz

1979 Angels: Carew, Grich, Ryan

1984 Expos: Carter, Raines, Rose

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Thanks a bunch! I was doing a lot of manual checking, and I just knew I’d miss some.

That Angels one is KILLIN’ me. I kept thinking, “Half these guys played for the Angels; there must be SOME combination of them that played together for a year.” Couldn’t find it, though.

The ’84 Expos I thought of, but just forgot to write down.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I expect there are more we’ve missed. Whoops, just found one:

1982-85 Angels: Carew, Grich, Jackson

There are a lot of pairs with a potential 3rd, e.g. Blyleven/Carew (Killebrew), Ripken/Palmer (Murray), Boggs/Clemens (Evans), et al.

If Lofton makes it in, he’ll be a 4th for the ’97 Braves and a 3rd for the ’04 Yankees, and maybe for some other teams.

It seems like Rickey Henderson ought to be on this list. If Alomar makes it in, then the ’93 Blue Jays will have 3 (Alomar, Henderson, Molitor).

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Another interesting Alomar one would be that he would make for a third among the 1996-1998 Baltimore Orioles (Ripken and Mussina). Eddie Murray played half a season with the O’s in 1996, so if BOTH get in, that would make four from the 1996 O’s.

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Actually Robinson retired after the ’56 season. So it’s just the 55-56 Dodgers.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The thing is that LONG before Campanella had “six good years” with the Dodger’s he was already a great ballplayer.

But for reasons beyond his control they weren’t in the major leagues.

And for my money that needs to be treated differently than a career shortened by injury.

All ballplayers risk injury when they play.

But only certain ones were told “You can’t play here.”

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig: By calling Campy “a great ballplayer” prior to his time with the Dodgers, I think you’ve made a sizable claim that isn’t really substantiated by the record we have. In 1946 playing in the class B New England League he was a very good player, batting .290 and slugging .477 in 113 games. His age was 24. In 135 games at triple A Montreal the following year, he hit 13 HRs, drove in 75, and batted .273. A very good player, yes. 1948 is the year he realized his potential: in only 35 games for St. Paul he slugged… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Keep in mind that the Negro Leagues, too, suffered from player shortages from 1943-1945, which takes that .440 down a bit. Additionally, while there can be no doubt that some of the greatest players of all-time were Negro Leaguers, the difference in talent between best and worst was probably more akin to WWII MLB than it was to non-War-time MLB. I think Campy would have been a capable backstop in his early twenties, had he been in MLB; I personally doubt that he would’ve been above average. But, that being said, reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and I… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Keep in mind that the Negro Leagues, too, suffered from player shortages from 1943-1945, which takes that .440 down a bit. Additionally, while there can be no doubt that some of the greatest players of all-time were Negro Leaguers, the difference in talent between best and worst was probably more akin to WWII MLB than it was to non-War-time MLB. I think Campy would have been a capable backstop in his early twenties, had he been in MLB; I personally doubt that he would’ve been above average. But, that being said, reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and I… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

This is from Rick Swaine’s article on Campanella from the SABR Bioproject on their website: “By 1939 the precocious 17-year-old youngster had taken over the regular catching chores and helped lead the Giants to playoff victories over the Newark Eagles and Homestead Grays. Soon he was challenging the legendary Josh Gibson’s status as the best catcher in Negro baseball. While still a teenager, he won MVP honors as the star of the 1941 Negro League East-West All-Star Game. ” http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/a52ccbb5 This is from the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum website: “Campy started playing for the Baltimore Elite Giants as a fifteen-year-old… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago

Hartvig: Just some other comparisons than Berra to put Campanella’s minor league performance in context with reference to 1) age; 2) level of play: At age 20 Willie Mays played 35 games in triple A and produced triple crown stats of 8-30-.477. Mantle at age 19: 40 games—11-50-.361. Snider at age 20: 66 games—12-46-.316. Sherm Lollar at age 22: 111 games—16-64-.280. At age 25 Campanella in 135 games: 13-75-.273. Sherm Lollar was a darn good player, but he never went on to have the big years the others had, and yet, in the same year, 1947, being three years younger… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago

Wait a minute nsb. You’re throwing out comparisons to Mays and Mantle, and looking just at the bat! Nobody is suggesting that Campanella was remotely close to those guys with the bat. His rbat per PA was .0263 for his career, while Mays’s was .0647 and mantle’s even higher. And yet, what he *did* do with the bat, while playing catcher very well, might have been enough if he’d had a full career, to get him into COG consideration. It’s ridiculous to discount his younger ability simply because he didn’t look like Willie Mays with the bat in the minors.… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago

Michael S: My argument isn’t about that. It is about whether or not Campanella was a “great” player as opposed to being a good one, prior to say, age 26. So I think it is fair to compare his performance to that of certifiably “great” players of that approximate era, under the assumption that the competition at the triple A level was fairly consistent between 1946 and 1951. It might not have been, true, but, playing in the same league the same year, 1947, Sherm Lollar—not a “great” player, put up similar stats to Campy’s, even though he was 3… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

nsb @ 136 –

Note that Lollar and Campanella’s 1947 minor league OPS figures are *not* park-adjusted – they’re simply raw OPS, not OPS+.

Granted, this probably doesn’t make much difference unless one or both of their home parks were outliers, but just thought I’d note it.

MS @ 146 –

Similarly, I’d be hesitant to compare performances in the 1947 International League to the 1973 Eastern League – a lot had changed in that quarter century, from the draft to integration to the growth of players from Latin America, and so on.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago

This is just a general comment about human nature, but it is directed at Rick Swine’s SABR biography of Campanella, which, the more I look into it, reminds me of the outrageous distortions one would hear in Bill Stern’s radio sports commentaries back in the dim dead days beyond recall. Swaine says Campanella was the New England League MVP in 1946. Other sources say he was the team MVP. There doesn’t seem to have been a league MVP, but my guess is that Mo Mazalli’s 19 HRs and .356 BA for Manchester would have trumped any other player in the… Read more »

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

1939. Age 19. Campanella was a catcher and put up the 4th best OPS in the negro leagues according to surviving records bbref includes. The three guys ahead of him are all in the hall of fame. He spent the 1940s playing wherever he could and it’s hard to say more than that. He lead the league in CS% ages 26-30. I THINK he had the defensive chops to contribute a little before that, don’t you? I think Campanella was a major leaguer at age 19. He missed 7 productive seasons and it’s hard to not agree that he was… Read more »

donburgh
donburgh
10 years ago

Craig Biggio, Kenny Lofton, Eddie Murray

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago

Alomar, Boudreau, Killebrew

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

birtelcom – the spreadsheet for the current COG membership needs some updating. Pee Wee isn’t on there yet. Not trying to be critical – just something I noticed.

wx
wx
10 years ago

Kenny Lofton, Whitey Ford, Lou Boudreau

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

We cannot reduce Lou Boudreau to his stats, because the story is too good. Player manager at age 24. That is so mind boggling that it is perhaps easy to gloss over. The man was the manager of a baseball team from ages 24-34. While being arguably the best shortstop on the planet at the time. The modern version of that would be if in 2000, the Mariners fired that grouchy old bastard Lou Pinella and instead lured Alex Rodriguez away from free agency by giving him the job. So, when Boudreau was 29, Larry Doby joins the team. Mr.… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

@130/VZ;

I’d probably choose Boudreau/1948 over Speaker/1920. Boudreau was clearly the AL MVP, while Speaker would’ve finished behind Ruth and probably Sisler,in a group with Bagby and Coveleski of the top Indians players (that is, if there _were_ an MVP vote/award in 1920…). Fred Clark/1909 and Frank Chance/1907 also get an honorable mention.

I didn’t realize that Boudreau also had the ridiculously low K total in 1948 – is he the only player besides Tommy Holmes in 1945 (28 HR) to have that many HR with ‘K’s in single digits? Yogi came close in 1950 with 28 HR/ 12 K.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Vote:

Lou Boudreau
Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton

Doug
Doug
10 years ago

Boudreau, Brown, Alomar

Mike L
Mike L
10 years ago

Ford, Killer and Boudreau. And allow me a little space. My son took me to Yankee Stadium today, There was a threat of rain, but it didn’t. It was supposed to be really hot, but it wasn’t. We rode up on a crammed subway with a bunch of very cheery Royals fans (although there seemed to be a little dispute over which college football team to root for.) swapping stories. We had great seats, field level behind first base, but back enough to be shaded. The game started badly with the injury to Danny Duffy, but there were several excellent… Read more »

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Good stuff, Mike L. I kinda got all goose-bumpy, but I’m an emotional sort.

Somehow this Marlins-Braves game on DVR with 1400 people in the stands isn’t quite having the same effect. 🙂

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Nothing beats a live MLB game. Thanks for sharing, Mike.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Really nice story Mike but don’t you mean “the silly YMCA thing”?

Mike L
Mike L
10 years ago

I do mean YMCA. Interesting Freudian slip, though. WMCA actually broadcast New York (Baseball) Giants games, then top 40, later broadcast Yankee games, had the young and noisy John Sterling as a talk show host. Now it’s a religious-themed station.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
10 years ago

Killebrew, Gordon, Eckersley.

Artie Z
Artie Z
10 years ago

Kevin Brown, Roberto Alomar, Eddie Murray