Quiz – what’s old is new again (stumped) |

The first list are pitchers who began their careers between 1893 and 1919. The second list are pitchers who played their entire careers between 1920 and 2000.

For both lists, only these pitchers had a particular career accomplishment. What is it?

Rk	Player	Player
1	Babe Adams	Jim Merritt
2	Noodles Hahn	Fergie Jenkins
3	Deacon Phillippe	Ron Guidry
4	Eddie Plank	Jim Bunning
5	Walter Johnson	Bert Blyleven
6	Mordecai Brown	Gaylord Perry
7	Chief Bender	Tom Seaver
8	Smoky Joe Wood	Juan Marichal
9	Christy Mathewson	Don Drysdale
10	Addie Joss	Sandy Koufax
11	Rube Waddell
12	Ed Walsh

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/21/2014.

Hint: while rare in the above periods, this feat has recently become more common, accomplished by 15 retired pitchers active since 2001.

I evidently stumped our readers with this one. The solution is that, among starting pitchers with 1000+ IP careers played entirely between 1893 and 2000, only the quiz players had a career FIP either below their SO/BB ratio, or no more than 20% higher than their SO/BB ratio. More after the jump:

Here are those careers.

Rk	Player	FIP	SO/W	IP	From	To	Age	G	GS	CG	SHO	W	L	W-L%	ERA	ERA+	Tm
1	Noodles Hahn	2.65	2.41	2029.1	1899	1906	20-27	243	231	212	25	130	94	.580	2.55	132	CIN-NYY
2	Addie Joss	2.25	2.53	2327.0	1902	1910	22-30	286	260	234	45	160	97	.623	1.89	142	CLE
3	Rube Waddell	2.03	2.88	2961.1	1897	1910	20-33	407	340	261	50	193	143	.574	2.16	135	LOU-PIT-CHC-PHA-SLB
4	Deacon Phillippe	2.60	2.56	2607.0	1899	1911	27-39	372	289	242	27	189	109	.634	2.59	120	LOU-PIT
5	Mordecai Brown	2.42	2.04	3172.1	1903	1916	26-39	481	332	271	55	239	130	.648	2.06	139	STL-CHC-CIN-SLM-BTT-CHI
6	Christy Mathewson	2.26	2.96	4788.2	1900	1916	19-35	636	552	435	79	373	188	.665	2.13	135	NYG-CIN
7	Eddie Plank	2.45	2.10	4495.2	1901	1917	25-41	623	529	410	69	326	194	.627	2.35	122	PHA-SLM-SLB
8	Ed Walsh	2.02	2.81	2964.1	1904	1917	23-36	430	315	250	57	195	126	.607	1.82	145	CHW-BSN
9	Smoky Joe Wood	2.26	2.35	1434.1	1908	1920	18-30	225	158	121	28	117	57	.672	2.03	147	BOS-CLE
10	Chief Bender	2.29	2.40	3017.0	1903	1925	19-41	459	334	255	40	212	127	.625	2.46	112	PHA-BAL-PHI-CHW
11	Babe Adams	2.72	2.41	2995.1	1906	1926	24-44	482	354	205	44	194	140	.581	2.76	117	STL-PIT
12	Walter Johnson	2.42	2.57	5914.1	1907	1927	19-39	802	666	531	110	417	279	.599	2.17	147	WSH
13	Sandy Koufax	2.69	2.93	2324.1	1955	1966	19-30	397	314	137	40	165	87	.655	2.76	131	BRO-LAD
14	Don Drysdale	3.02	2.91	3432.0	1956	1969	19-32	518	465	167	49	209	166	.557	2.95	121	BRO-LAD
15	Jim Bunning	3.22	2.86	3760.1	1955	1971	23-39	591	519	151	40	224	184	.549	3.27	115	DET-PHI-PIT-LAD
16	Juan Marichal	3.04	3.25	3507.0	1960	1975	22-37	471	457	244	52	243	142	.631	2.89	123	SFG-BOS-LAD
17	Jim Merritt	3.37	2.89	1483.0	1965	1975	21-31	297	192	56	9	81	86	.485	3.65	99	MIN-CIN-TEX
18	Fergie Jenkins	3.28	3.20	4500.2	1965	1983	22-40	664	594	267	49	284	226	.557	3.34	115	PHI-CHC-TEX-BOS
19	Gaylord Perry	3.06	2.56	5350.0	1962	1983	23-44	777	690	303	53	314	265	.542	3.11	117	SFG-CLE-SDP-TEX-NYY-ATL-SEA-KCR
20	Tom Seaver	3.04	2.62	4783.0	1967	1986	22-41	656	647	231	61	311	205	.603	2.86	127	NYM-CIN-CHW-BOS
21	Ron Guidry	3.27	2.81	2392.0	1975	1988	24-37	368	323	95	26	170	91	.651	3.29	119	NYY
22	Bert Blyleven	3.19	2.80	4970.0	1970	1992	19-41	692	685	242	60	287	250	.534	3.31	118	TEX-PIT-CLE-MIN-CAL

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/23/2014.

So, quite a gap in time between Walter Johnson and Sandy Koufax, mainly due to declining SO/BB through the first decades of the live ball era. But, as you know, that has changed. Strikeouts are way up, and so thus are SO/BB ratios. The result is 15 retired pitchers active in this century who meet the quiz criteria, plus an additional 16 pitchers active in 2014 who currently meet that test.

Rk	Player	FIP	SO/W	IP	From	To	Age	G	GS	CG	SHO	W	L	W-L%	ERA	ERA+	Tm
1	Bret Saberhagen	3.27	3.64	2562.2	1984	2001	20-37	399	371	76	16	167	117	.588	3.34	126	KCR-NYM-COL-BOS
2	Shane Reynolds	3.69	3.35	1791.2	1992	2004	24-36	305	278	20	7	114	96	.543	4.09	103	HOU-ATL-ARI
3	Roger Clemens	3.09	2.96	4916.2	1984	2007	21-44	709	707	118	46	354	184	.658	3.12	143	BOS-TOR-NYY-HOU
4	Curt Schilling	3.23	4.38	3261.0	1988	2007	21-40	569	436	83	20	216	146	.597	3.46	127	BAL-HOU-PHI-ARI-BOS
5	Jon Lieber	4.02	3.68	2198.0	1994	2008	24-38	401	327	25	5	131	124	.514	4.27	103	PIT-CHC-NYY-PHI
6	Greg Maddux	3.26	3.37	5008.1	1986	2008	20-42	744	740	109	35	355	227	.610	3.16	132	CHC-ATL-LAD-SDP
7	Mike Mussina	3.57	3.58	3562.2	1991	2008	22-39	537	536	57	23	270	153	.638	3.68	123	BAL-NYY
8	Randy Johnson	3.19	3.26	4135.1	1988	2009	24-45	618	603	100	37	303	166	.646	3.29	135	MON-SEA-HOU-ARI-NYY-SFG
9	Pedro Martinez	2.91	4.15	2827.1	1992	2009	20-37	476	409	46	17	219	100	.687	2.93	154	LAD-MON-BOS-NYM-PHI
10	John Smoltz	3.24	3.05	3473.0	1988	2009	21-42	723	481	53	16	213	155	.579	3.33	125	ATL-STL-BOS
11	Javier Vazquez	3.91	3.32	2840.0	1998	2011	21-34	450	443	28	8	165	160	.508	4.22	105	MON-NYY-ARI-CHW-ATL-FLA
12	Johan Santana	3.44	3.51	2025.2	2000	2012	21-33	360	284	15	10	139	78	.641	3.20	136	MIN-NYM
13	Ben Sheets	3.66	3.59	1596.2	2001	2012	22-33	250	250	18	4	94	96	.495	3.78	113	MIL-OAK-ATL
14	Roy Halladay	3.39	3.58	2749.1	1998	2013	21-36	416	390	67	20	203	105	.659	3.38	131	TOR-PHI
15	Roy Oswalt	3.37	3.56	2245.1	2001	2013	23-35	365	341	20	8	163	102	.615	3.36	127	HOU-PHI-TEX-COL
16	Zack Greinke	3.42	3.52	1728.0	2004	2014	20-30	310	269	13	4	113	83	.577	3.59	117	KCR-MIL-LAA-LAD
17	Cole Hamels	3.53	3.81	1634.1	2006	2014	22-30	251	250	13	6	100	76	.568	3.40	122	PHI
18	Dan Haren	3.66	4.09	2103.0	2003	2014	22-33	336	325	16	6	134	113	.543	3.73	112	STL-OAK-ARI-LAA-WSN-LAD
19	Felix Hernandez	3.20	3.28	1892.0	2005	2014	19-28	279	279	23	9	115	87	.569	3.19	127	SEA
20	Clayton Kershaw	2.86	3.12	1202.1	2008	2014	20-26	188	186	11	7	79	47	.627	2.63	144	LAD
21	Hiroki Kuroda	3.63	3.32	1174.2	2008	2014	33-39	189	188	6	5	71	73	.493	3.46	116	LAD-NYY
22	Cliff Lee	3.44	3.93	2143.1	2002	2014	23-35	325	321	29	12	143	90	.614	3.50	119	CLE-PHI-TEX-SEA
23	Tim Lincecum	3.23	2.77	1461.0	2007	2014	23-30	230	229	9	6	92	73	.558	3.51	111	SFG
24	Ricky Nolasco	3.80	3.47	1368.1	2006	2014	23-31	238	221	10	4	91	79	.535	4.42	93	FLA-MIA-LAD-MIN
25	Jake Peavy	3.59	3.13	1999.0	2002	2014	21-33	315	314	15	6	133	100	.571	3.53	114	SDP-CHW-BOS
26	David Price	3.38	3.26	1042.1	2008	2014	22-28	162	157	10	2	75	43	.636	3.26	120	TBR
27	Max Scherzer	3.48	3.30	1085.0	2008	2014	23-29	184	175	0	0	79	46	.632	3.61	118	ARI-DET
28	James Shields	3.76	3.57	1750.2	2006	2014	24-32	262	261	21	8	106	85	.555	3.75	111	TBD-TBR-KCR
29	Justin Verlander	3.39	3.01	1838.0	2005	2014	22-31	276	276	20	6	142	80	.640	3.41	127	DET
30	Adam Wainwright	3.14	3.40	1387.2	2005	2014	23-32	258	195	18	8	106	59	.642	3.05	131	STL
31	Jered Weaver	3.69	3.14	1541.0	2006	2014	23-31	241	241	12	6	118	63	.652	3.22	128	LAA

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 5/23/2014.

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Paul E

10 years ago

1,400 + IP
SO/BB > 2.3

I think……

Author

Doug

Reply to Paul E

SO/BB is part of the answer.

But, there’s something else.

BTW, your query returns many more pitchers than those in the quiz.

Doug:
1st group is 2.4 ratio; 2nd group is 2.7; 3rd group is 3.0 ?

That’s all I got 🙁

It’s the same criteria for each of the three groups.

one more guess:
5/1 ratio of K/bb in a qualified season?

The answer includes each player’s entire career.

HowardR

K/BB better 2.3 or better and hits per nine IP less than 9.0?

Reply to HowardR

No, that’s not it.

A couple more early guys (Pete Alexander and Dazzy Vance) and a bunch more of the second set (Hubbell, Gibson, Lolich, Key, Matlack, Haddix and more) get picked up with those criteria.

MikeD

Unrelated, but the first list has way cooler names.

Reply to MikeD

Interestingly, both lists have 8 HOFers.

Michael Sullivan

I’m gonna guess SO > BB + ER. So far it matches, and I haven’t found any really good pitcher that fits who isn’t on this list. And I can imagine that a lot more pitchers would close out their career with that now. Probably any pitcher with a reasonable shot at the hall who was still pitching in the 2000s would be on the list now, and many of the HOVG pitchers as well.

Reply to Michael Sullivan

No. That’s not it.

The answer involves the SO/BB ratio, but not SO and BB separately as in your formulation.

Players who meet your criteria and aren’t on the lists are:
– Old: Dazzy Vance
– New: Sid Fernandez, Bob Veale, Andy Messersmith, Jim Maloney, Harvey Haddix, Jose Rijo, Dean Chance, Mario Soto, Dizzy Dean, etc.

Editor

John Autin

The piece besides SO/W ratio must be more essential. This group’s SO/W range is at least 2.10 (Plank) to 3.20 (Fergie) — I’m too lazy to make sure those are the real high and low, but either way it’s a huge range. And at least two guys had less than 1,500 IP. I am stumped.

Reply to John Autin

What other statistic is most influenced by SO and BB?

Reply to Doug

WHIP would be the most obvious, but it can’t just be that or Cy Young would be on there. WHIP is better than many of these guys and his K/BB is 2.3, higher than the lowest here.

FIP, another obvious candidate, also suffers from the Cy Young exception.

Same with H/9.

One of those three is the other stat.

Note that Cy Young did not begin his career between 1893 and 1919.

Oh! sneaky sneaky

RichW

Career WHIP lower than 1.2

Reply to RichW

That’s not it.

Yeah I knew 3 minutes after I posted. Seriously stumped but intrigued.

jajacob

Win/loss percentage

Reply to jajacob

No, it’s SO/BB plus one of the metrics identified by Michael Sullivan in comment 15.