Circle of Greats 1925 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 57th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition, that was begun in the previous round, of those players born in 1925.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1925 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the bottom half by alphabetical order this round after the top half was included last week.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1925-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT Tuesday, May 13, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Sunday, May 11.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1925 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover candidates; additional player columns from the new born-in-1925 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The holdovers list includes the two winners of the just-completed redemption round. The new group of 1925 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 17 players born in 1925 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  Eight of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Stan Lopata to Vic Wertz).  The nine players further up in the alphabet were added in the previous round.

Holdovers:
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 11 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Duke Snider (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Whitey Ford (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Richie Ashburn (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round  only)

Everyday Players (born in 1925, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Minnie Minoso
Vic Wertz
Stan Lopata
Les Moss
Hank Thompson

Hank Thompson is one of those rare guys who played less than 10 years in the majors, but racked up enough WAR to make it to our COG ballot.  Thompson was the third African-American to play in the modern major leagues, debuting for the St. Louis Browns three months after Jackie Robinson debuted with the Dodgers and less than two weeks after Larry Doby played his first game with the Indians.

Pitchers (born in 1925, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bobby Shantz
Cal McLish
Bob Rush

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mosc
mosc
10 years ago

Smoltz, Ford, Koufax

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Biggio, Sandberg, Marichal

wx
wx
10 years ago

Sandy Koufax, Juan Marichal, Richie Ashburn

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago

Sandberg, McCovey, Marichal

bcholm
bcholm
10 years ago

Koufax, Marichal, McCovey

bstar
10 years ago

Koufax, Lofton, Murray

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Smoltz, Martinez, McCovey

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Stan Lopata hit 27.6% of his career home runs in 1956. Only four players with more than 100 Home Runs had had a larger percentage: Bob Cerv, Tilly Walker, Lefty O’Doul and Willard Marshall.

His 32 homers that year were 7th all-time for a catcher (50%).

41 Campanella
37 Hartnett
35 Cooper
35 York
33 York
33 Campanella
32 Campanella
32 Lopata

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo: There have been others who have beaten Lopata’s 27.6%, among them are Bill Hall, Davey Johnson, Fernando Tatis, Brad Fullmer and Don Hurst.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Yup, that was the one stat I did not research myself. Copied it off his wiki.

bells
bells
10 years ago

Here’s the vote according to my methodology. I take four measures of player value as a gauge of how players compare across advanced metrics that value things slightly differently. Then I give them a cumulative rank with all players on the ballot over 50 WAR, adding their ranking of each measure. Here are the measures: WAR – is it too new to call it ‘classic’? Well, it’s the ‘classic’ way of measuring a player’s value over a player the team could have gotten to replace the player, over that player’s career, to show how ‘good’ that player was. WAA+ –… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  bells

I dunno… as much as I’m stumping for defense and speed to be recognized……….

the Duke’s peak was pretty spectacular.
If I’m building a team and I have to choose 1950 Snider or 1993 Lofton, I’d probably pick Snider.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Bobby Shantz was 139 pounds, and he had a 9.6 WAR season (incl. hitting).
He was an original Washington Senator (for two days).
He was an original Colt .45 (started and won their first game).

He got to be teammates with his (catcher) brother Billy for one inning in 1960 (though no, he was not the pitcher).

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Ah, to be a Cubbie.
Sorry Bob Rush…

Since 1901:

at least 2000 IP
ERA+ of at least 110
and a Winning Percentage under .500

.436 Ken Raffensberger
.451 Ned Garver
.453 Harry Howell
.455 Bob Rush
then nobody until…
.485 Thornton Lee
.487 Murray Dickson
.498 George Mogridge
.498 Fritz Ostermuller
.498 Jon Matlack
.498 Joe Horlen

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Same ballot two rounds in a row! I don’t know if that’s happened to me since the second-ever round of voting roughly one million years ago!

Duke Snider
Juan Marichal
Ryne Sandberg

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Selected tidbits on this ballot’s new addition. – Minnie Minoso was the same age as I am now when he played his final game … on my birthday. More to the point, he led his league in both CS and HBP on six different occasions. Those 6 times match the number of occasions all others have done the same, once each for Jack Fournier, Eddie Murphy, Johnny Mostil, Bert Campaneris, Lonnie Smith and Juan Pierre. – Vic Wertz and contemporary Joe Adcock are the only players active every year aged 33 to 38, to record 100 RBI in a single… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Hank Thompson is the only African-American to be the first such player on 2 different teams, the Browns and the Giants.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The other 2 players who matched Shantz’ feat are Mark Fidrych and Dick Ellsworth

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Piece of cake for you, RC. 🙂

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

While we’re on the subject of Bobby Shantz he was the first pitcher to be awarded a Gold Glove. He won it in 1957 when the award was for both leagues. Then from ’58-’60 he won it for the AL and from ’61-’64 in the NL.

Doug
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Trying to think of all the brother batteries.
– Will/Deacon White
– Mike/Jack O’Neill
– Wes/Rick Ferrell
– Mort/Walker Cooper
– Elmer/Johnny Riddle(*)
– Bobby/Billy Shantz
– Larry/Norm Sherry

Who else?

(*) The Riddles were a battery once, on 6-29-48, for just two batters, who both homered.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Jim/Ed Bailey
Milt/Ale Gaston
Tom/Homer Thompson
Lefty/Fred Tyler

Doug
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Thanks.

In Milt Gaston’s first start with his brother, he allowed 8 runs on 9 hits … in 1.1 IP. Ouch!

The Thompsons had just one game together, Homer’s only big league appearance.

If their game logs are correct, the Tylers didn’t actually make a battery – Fred Tyler caught 6 games in his career, in 3 successive double-headers to close out the 1914 season. Lefty’s last appearance that season was the game before his brother’s debut.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

@30

I retrieved the info about the brother batteries from a reference book which evidently is in error about the Tylers.

robbs
robbs
10 years ago

Plus the Bird did it for the major league minimum salary at the time of $16,500.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Vic Wertz missed large portions of the 1955 season when he contracted a mild form of polio. Lots of people thought his career was ended. In 1956 he hit 32 HRs and drove in 106. As for Minnie Minoso, he was a colorful player on the field, always doing something daring and often spectacular. A fan favorite home and away. In 1957 Bob/Whitey Shantz/Ford had a great year for the Yankees. Both had records of 11-5. Shantz led the league with an ERA of 2.45 in 173 innings. Ford, who was injured or ailing much of the time, had an… Read more »

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

The Wertz season that caught my eye was his 1960 campaign at age 35, because of its isolation from other qualifying seasons, and also because of his efficiency in driving in runs that year. Wertz’s 204 total bases that season are the lowest total, by eight, of any 100 RBI season, and is one of only three 100 RBI seasons averaging more than 0.5 RBI per total base.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago

Juan Marichal, Edgar Martinez and… my All Time favorite name: Saturnino Orestes Miñoso. While looking at his stats, I found a few interesting facts about Miñoso. For instance, he was 4th in MVP voting five different times. Most people in this forum knows that he made appearances for the White Sox in his age 50 and 54, but few knew that he kept playing well (and managing) in the Mexican Winter and Summer leagues after he was done playing in the Majors. But my favorite fact is, among his 17 seasons in the Majors, four were with less than 40… Read more »

RJ
RJ
10 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

As brilliant as Saturnino Orestes Miñoso is, I’m going to have to go with his ballot-mate and onomastic favourite, Calvin Coolidge Julius Caesar Tuskahoma McLish.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

John Smoltz, Edgar Martinez, Kenny Lofton

Francisco
Francisco
10 years ago

Juan Marichal, Duke Snider, Orestes Miñoso

ATarwerdi96
10 years ago

Duke Snider, Edgar Martinez, Willie McCovey

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Martinez
Smoltz
Koufax

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Marichal, McCovey, Minoso

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Koufax, Marichal, Snider

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Marichal, Edgar, Snider

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

In the NBJHBA Bill James said that Minnie Minoso had the 16th most Win Shares of any position player between ages 30 and 39 (at least thru 1999 when the book was written). All of the 20 players on the list that he published except for Minoso are in the Hall of Fame and the overwhelming majority of them are who most would consider 1st tier Hall of Famers- Wagner, Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Schmidt, Williams etc. I don’t know if James was using the same date of birth that Baseball-Reference has, since on his B-R page Minoso was only… Read more »

Mo
Mo
10 years ago

Ashburn koufax snider

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Koufax, McCovey, Smoltz

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Koufax, Snider, Smoltzie.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

Minoso, Marichal, Ashburn

David P
David P
10 years ago

Snider
Marichal
Murray

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Murray, Biggio, McCovey

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Koufax, Ford.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Ford, Koufax, Snider

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Martinez, Lofton, Smoltz

Low T
Low T
10 years ago

Lofton, Smoltz, Snider please

oneblankspace
10 years ago

When asked in 2005 what the World Series was like in 1959, Minoso replied I don’t know; I was in Cleveland.

Saturnino Orestes Arrieta Armas Minoso, the first black player (though Cuban rather than African-American) for the White Sox

Craig Biggio

and
Harmon Killebrew, who didn’t really kill the Brewers, but did hit .274/.437/.517 against them with 16 HR and 51 RBI in 85 games (including games against the Pilots) according to Retrosheet.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

I’m actually surprised that Killer hit that well against Seattle/Milwaukee. He was pretty well over-the-hill at that point. I mean, it would all be 1969-1975. Obviously, ’69 was his MVP season, and he was a monster. But his OPS dropped from that season by 54 points, then 107 points, then 33, then a whopping 119, then 26, and then it ticked up slightly by 20, but ended at a pretty pedestrian .692. His OPS+ was actually below average the final three years of his career. So I guess it should surprise me that he hit an expansion team well while… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Marichal, Murray, and … Edgar (for the first time in a long while that I’ve voted for him).

robbs
robbs
10 years ago

Biggio Lofton Snider

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago

So the most interesting guys on the ballot are Miñoso and Thompson. It’s criminal that Saturnino is not yet in the HOF. By major league career alone he’s got a borderline case that’s been good enough for many, and considering that he achieved all his WAR in the span of 11 years, that gives him a Kineresque peak. Given that he probably lost 3-4 good years to the color barrier, it’s hard to believe that he wasn’t considered a shoe-in hall of famer. That said, giving him credit for 4 good years averaging 3-5 WAR just brings him to the… Read more »

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Minoso loses a fair bit of WAR due to his defense from 1960 on, coinciding with his return to Chicago. His dWAR up to that point had been more or less neutral, but is -5.3 from 1960 on, including seasons of -2.2 and -1.5 in Chicago and another -1.5 in part-time duty in Washington.

If Dave Winfield is the borderline HOF case for outfielders, I think you half to assume a lot re: lost opportunity and assumed performance just to bring Minoso up to Winfield’s level.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I don’t know who has Winfield as a borderline HOFer. I would have said he’s a clear choice. I think he’s borderline for the COG (and I’ve seen some voters in the RR really push for him). I haven’t voted for him on the redemption ballot only because I’ve always thought there were three better candidates, but if he ended up on the ballot, I could imagine putting him in at some point. I have him out, but some of the people I have in are on the redemption list and not getting support, and he’s very close to my… Read more »

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

I’m not sure I’m seeing the same 4-5 years lost to segregation for Minoso that others have seen. Looking at his data from Baseball-Reference, he spent his age-20, age-21 and age-22 seasons in the Negro National League, his age-24 and age-25 seasons in the Pacific Coast League. His age-21 and age-22 stats are decent, but not spectacular. His 1948 season, at age-22, is great, but in 78 PAs. His age-23 and age-24 years were spent at San Diego in the PCL, with a 20 PA cup of coffee with Clevelend in 1949 (age-23). At 23, he was in the top-10… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  --bill

I agree Bill. There appear to be some errors in Minoso’s SABR bio but if I’m understanding things correctly he was 20 years old when he reached the highest level of Cuban baseball. Had a MLB team signed him at that point, he likely would have spent a few years in the minors first. And then? Who knows? We can’t just assume that Minoso would have been given a full time job at that point. Nor can we assume what sort of player he would have been. Plenty of players struggle when they first reach the majors and take a… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  David P

I think Minnie got younger over time, so some people (not necessarily Michael Sullivan based on what he wrote) may still think he lost more time than he should have. I remember reading the Minoso entry in the Bill James book (the one where he ranks the top 100 at each position) and I thought his rookie season was very late. Searching for “Minnie Minoso age” (no quotes) in Google, I see some places that reference his birth year as 1922, not 1925. I think that’s where some of the lost seasons come from – it’s easier to give him… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Yeah, I’m working from the current record at B-R. I’m figuring that it’s quite possible, given how good his career was, that in a non-prejudiced environment, he’d have been in the majors from his age 21 or 22 season for 3 or 4 years of service. One of which might have been a cup of coffee. My central case estimate (not giving lots of benefit of the doubt) would be that he’d have had about 3 years of full time play that wasn’t as good as his prime play, but probably still above average. I’m mentally adding 3-4 WAA and… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  --bill

I agree with bill, too. I have ALWAYS wondered why people assume that Minoso would have been a straight-to-the-majors talent. 25 is a LITTLE on the older side for a HOF-type player to start, but it’s not unheard of. More likely, I think he probably lost about 2 years. Had there been no issues with integration, and had he been born in the US, I could have seen someone signing him as a late-teen/20-year-old, but I STILL think his record indicates that he would’ve been in the minors until at least his age-23 season. Now, he may have gotten two… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  --bill

Don’t forget that playing in those same Negro Leagues as Minoso was at age 20 were the likes of Satchel Page, Josh Gibson, Willard Brown, Buck O’Neil, Connie Johnson, Buck Leonard, Leon Day, Bill Byrd, Luke Easter, Luis Tiant the elder and many others. This wasn’t Class A level equivalent ball, not by a long shot. And at the time the PCL was still an independent league and was actually considering whether or not to become a third major league. If Minoso could play at that level and do well, there’s no reason to think that he couldn’t do as… Read more »

David P
David P
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Hartvig – There were certainly some decent players in that league but it seems like there was a serious lack of depth. For example, Cool Papa Bell was 3rd in OPS even though he was 43 years old. Similarly Dave Thomas, a teammate of Minoso’s was 8th in OPS even though he was 41 years old (and his OPS that year was 150 points higher than his career OPS). At the other end of the spectrum nearly half (26 of 56) of the players on the leaderboard had an OPS under .600. You see some similar things with the pitchers.… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I think this is a two-part question: 1. Could he play in the majors? 2. Would he play in the majors (i.e., would a team play him, and yes I realize he had the color barrier working against him)? Maybe he could play in the majors – he certainly did well enough in his career post-age 25 to suggest that he could have had a Clemente-like age 20-24 years (10.4 WAR for Roberto in those years). But as to question 2 … Minoso did get a cup of coffee at age 23 and he didn’t stick. He spent his age… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasonal totals: Martinez 41.3 Smoltz 40.1 Lofton 39.3 Snider 39.2 McCovey 38.9 Sandberg 38.8 Biggio 36.3 Ashburn 33.9 Murray 33.7 Killebrew 33.0 Marichal 32.7 Koufax 32.3 Minoso 30.6 Ford 29.3 Minnie Minoso is a Hall of Famer. I’m not sure he belongs in this circle, as it’s hard to assume he would have been worth another 10 WAA by age 25 when he averaged 2.4 from 26 to 28. I’ll throw him a vote in recognition of the injustice that is his exclusion from the Hall and to put extra emphasis on this round’s… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Minor clerical note: the ballot @ 7 had a vote recorded for Lofton instead of McCovey.

BillH
BillH
10 years ago

Marichal, Murray, Ford

with McCovey closely behind

Hub Kid
Hub Kid
10 years ago

Minnie Minoso, Juan Marichal, Hank Thompson

Thanks to Birtelcom for bringing Thompson up- I had never heard of him, and I think he should be more widely known. Although clearly not possessing the HOF or COG case of the 1st African American MLB player (or even the 2nd), a good candidate for a ‘Shorter Career HOF’, if there were such a thing.

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
10 years ago

Killebrew, McCovey, and Ford

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
10 years ago

Killebrew, McCovey and Ford

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Saturino Orestes Armas Minoso Arriete

If that doesn’t count for all three votes – Smoltz and Ford

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Koufax, Smoltz, Snider

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
10 years ago

Using my (WAR + (WAA/2)) methodology introduced in the 1959 balloting, which includes a bWAR addition/subtraction for pitchers, my top candidates are as follows:

Smoltz 88.5
Martinez 87.5
Lofton 87.3
Sandberg 86.6
Snider 84.2
Murray 81.8
McCovey 79.6
Biggio 79.4
Marichal 78.1
Ashburn 77.5
Killebrew 74.4
Ford 71.8
Koufax 64.4

My actual vote is Smoltz, Murray, Sandberg. I have a hard time putting Martinez ahead of Lofton and Sandberg when the three are so evenly matched, and I would also hate to see Murray go at this point.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  GrandyMan

This is like deducting peak from value, hence Koufax drifting ever lower. You are literally computing who was routinely above average, double counting that part of the career which shaves peak.

All the career gauging measures I’ve seen try to balance in some peak with longevity. This is the complete wrong direction as far as I’m concerned.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Maybe you’re being overly harsh. Adam’s Hall of Stats is basically (WAR + WAA) and JAWS is (WAR + WAR7)/2, so this isn’t a big diversion from that.

This construction is actually giving less weight to WAA than most. It’s not double-counting WAA, it’s basically multiplying it by 1.5 (since WAA is also a part of WAR). So he’s giving a little more weight to career value/longevity than peak (WAA). Seems reasonable to me.

Koufax is last because he has 54 WAR.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

it’s not deducting peak. It’s giving peak less weight than some other measures. But for two players with the same total WAR value, the one with the better peak will come out better on this formula, just not by as much as with WAR + WAA or jaws. Koufax is just not that clear a case unless you weight peak *much* higher than you weight total value. You don’t have to discount it to end up with him falling behind almost every hall of famer. You have to weight peak *much* higher than the HOS or JAWS (or give a… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

The other issue with Koufax is that his peak is short. His 4-year peak is incredible – I would guess his 1963-1966 is not matched by very many people outside of the inner circle HOFers. Even deducting for his bat his 4 year WAR and WAA totals are 35.3 and 24, respectively. So Koufax has 6 WAA per year over his 4-year peak. To put that in perspective, Lou Gehrig’s 4-year peak (consecutive seasons, so 1927-1930) is 38.4 WAR and 28.3 WAA. When you have a 4-year peak like Gehrig, well, that’s pretty good (to be fair to Gehrig, his… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

This is really a reply to b-com @81 but I don’t want it squeezed into the tiny column box. I’ll use a 4-year window with 30+ pitching WAR to define a short intense peak. Why? Intuition – averaging 7.5 WAR for 4 years is a pretty high level (as we’ll see) and 4 years is really the lowest I want to go. So I’m looking at all the 4-year (consecutive) windows in which a pitcher accumulated 30+ pitching WAR (leaving out any positive or negative batting WAR). I started at 1901, so some pitchers may have more than the numbers… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

@Artie I read the whole thing. The issue with the black ink stuff is that Koufax was playing in an EXTREME pitcher’s park, which helped him win an awful lot of black ink. Had he been playing in a different place in the NL, he might have had a bit different experience. @b-com The argument about Koufax’s dominance coinciding with Dodger success is an interesting one. You point out that the Dodgers wouldn’t have won without Koufax. Too true (especially with a replacement or average player in there). They won three pennants, and by a pretty wide margin only once:… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Doom – I agree that Koufax playing in an extreme pitcher’s park helps him on the black ink. But … those numbers are etched in the minds of many. Plus, he twice led in ERA+ while in Dodger Stadium (his ERA+ ranks are 4, 2, 1, 3, and 1 from 1962-1966, in Dodger Stadium). He led in fewest H/9 in 1961 (and finished 2nd in 1958 and 1960) when the Dodgers were NOT playing in Dodger Stadium. He led in Ks and K/9 and K/BB in 1961. As early as 1957 he began finishing in the top 10 in Ks,… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

@76/mosc;

Sandy Koufax and Nolan Ryan are always going to be quite polarizing figures in the debate between Mainstream and Advanced Stats baseball historians to rate players properly.

One represents extreme PEAK vs. CAREER value; the other extreme CAREER vs. PEAK value. What’s odd is that many many mainstream people value BOTH of them higher than advanced stats people, ignoring the negatives in their arguments for each.

I don’t have to point out _here_ how contradictory this is, folks…

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

smoltz, lofton, minoso

jeff hill
jeff hill
10 years ago

Marichal, Smoltz, Lofton

PP
PP
10 years ago

Smoltz, Marichal, Snider

tempted to vote for Minoso, black ink in a little bit of everything, HBP 10x, CS 6x, SB 3, SF 2, 3B , GDB, H, 2B, WAR, and record holder for all-time coolest name