Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #4

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This Circle of Greats (COG) vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will be restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility. This fourth “redemption round” (we also held such rounds after the 1960, 1950 and 1940 rounds of voting) gives voters a chance to reconsider past candidates who have been rejected. Rules and lists are after the jump.

In this round you may include on your three-man ballot any player who was born between 1930 and 1969 and has neither been elected to the Circle of Greats nor is currently on the 1929 regular COG ballot. As usual, you must vote for three and only three to cast a qualifying ballot. The two guys who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of of COG voting. If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds, which are currently scheduled to be held once after every decade’s worth of regular induction rounds (after the 1920 round, the 1910 round, etc.).

The lists of hitters and pitchers below show, in alphabetical order, the 18 hitters and 13 pitchers who have received at least four COG votes in regular voting rounds in the past but have not been inducted and are not on the current ballot. The names on these lists are only suggestions, they are not intended to be limiting: to repeat, you can vote for whoever you want among those born from 1930 through 1969 as long as they are not already in the COG or already on the regular ballot.

Position players born 1930-1969 who have received at least four votes in past regular COG voting (but are not on the regular 1929 COG ballot and are not COG inductees):
Dick Allen
Roberto Alomar
Ken Boyer
Andre Dawson
Dwight Evans
Jeff Kent
Harmon Killebrew
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Eddie Murray
Graig Nettles
Willie Randolph
Ted Simmons
Willie Stargell
Gene Tenace
Dave Winfield
Jim Wynn

Pitchers born 1930-1969 who have received at least four votes in regular COG voting (but are not on the regular regular 1929 COG ballot and are not COG inductees):
Kevin Brown
Jim Bunning
Don Drysdale
Dennis Eckersley
Rich Gossage
Trevor Hoffman
Jim Kaat
Dan Quisenberry
Rick Reuschel
Dave Stieb
Don Sutton
Luis Tiant
Wilbur Wood

The deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Saturday night, March 22 at 11PM EDT. You can change your votes until 11PM EDT on Thursday night, March 20. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: COG Redemption Round 4 Vote Tally

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Mike

10 years ago

Killebrew
Stargell
Winfield

Andy

10 years ago

Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, Harmon Killebrew

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Other notables out there, not listed above
(off the top of my head):

McGwire
Sosa
Palmeiro
________

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

~~Was that meant as a vote, or just info?~~ Never mind.

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

No way.

I admire Bic Mac’s cleverness planting that Andro in his locker as a diversion.

I admire Sosa’s moxie in forgetting how to speak english every time he’s asked a difficult question, while turning himself into a vampire pimp.

But Raffy would have had to hit 900 homers for me to get over that moustache/viagra combo.

Luis Gomez

10 years ago

Hoffman, Winfield, Alomar.

BillH

10 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Winfield

Alomar and Murray are no-brainers. I could easily be talked out of Winfield in favor of several other worthies, but it feels right no like Winnie is the best of the rest.

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Lou Whitaker vs Willie Randolph
Lou played the equivalent of one more full season, and accrued 8.2 more WAR.

Here, side by side, are their best WAR seasons.
Lou, then Willie

6.7 … 6.6
6.7 … 5.8
5.5 … 5.2
5.3 … 5.0
4.7 … 4.7
4.5 … 4.6
4.4 … 4.2
4.4 … 4.1
4.3 … 4.1
4.1 … 4.0
3.8 … 3.3
3.8 … 3.2
3.8 … 2.8
3.6 … 2.4
3.5 … 2.3
2.5 … 2.1
1.9 … 0.9
1.5 … 0.6

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I’ll second Voomo’s huzzah for Willie Randolph, one of the greatest defenders never to win a Gold Glove. Not necessarily a knock on the GG voting, since the guys who won over Willie were legitimately excellent (mostly Frank White & Lou Whitaker). It just shows that the failure to cop a GG should not be a strike against the player. It’s funny that HOF voting tends to favor most forms of specialization over balanced excellence, except for the on-base specialist, who is obviously more important than most kinds. During his career, Randolph reached safely 11% more times than the #2… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Though I probably voted for Alomar 20 times, and I did my part to keep Murray on the ballot, for my vote this time I’m going with a guy who had two careers,
and two players who the HOF wrongly treated as one-and-done:

Dennis Eckersley
Willie Randolph
Kevin Brown

10 years ago

Rick Reuschel, Kevin Brown, Don Drysdale

Darien

10 years ago

Bunning, Quisenberry, and Killebrew

bells

10 years ago

Since just after the last redemption round, I’ve started ranking guys on the ballot with the cumulative rank of 3 measures: WAR, WAA+ and JAWS. This redemption round is quite competitive, so I want to use that methodology to get an initial ranking of the contenders. Here are the cumulative rankings (out of the top 50 WAR-getters of those dropped off the ballot) of the top 20 guys up for consideration. Numbers beside the names are cumulative rankings, so if someone is #1 in all 3 measures, it would give him a 3, if he was #2 in all 3… Read more »

bells

10 years ago

Reply to bells

In case anyone’s curious what other guys that have been through the CoG process are close by these metrics (or just enjoy remembering the names of those we’ve judged as not quite worthy), here are some others outside the top 20: 21. Billy Williams 22. Sammy Sosa 23. Dennis Eckersley 24. Dave Winfield (seems there’s a strong feeling that his talent was bigger than his advanced stats) 25. Don Sutton 26. Gary Sheffield 27. Keith Hernandez 28. Dave Stieb 29. Harmon Killebrew 30. Bobby Bonds 31. Jim Wynn 32. Chuck Finley 33. Willie Davis 34. Kevin Appier 35. John Olerud… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to bells

If WAR had been around in 1979,
we might have said:

The 37th best position player in the league just won a share of the MVP. Tied for 37th best, with the likes of Craig Reynolds and Joe Ferguson. On his own team he was the equivalent of Tim Foli.

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Voom:
Yeah, pretty bizarre that Stargell didn’t exactly play great in August and September (despite 8 homers in September) 1979, but the Pirates did.

I think there could be a strong case made for Stargell as MVP in both 1971 and 1973. But Joe Torre legged out a .363 batting average and Pete Rose’s 230 base hits trumped both Stargell and Morgan’s superior efforts. For crissakes, Bobby Bonds was better than Pete in 1973

bstar

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Wow, there were a lot of standout performances in 1973. Eleven position players in baseball had at least a 7 WAR season, tied for the most in any one season since 1901. In the NL alone: Darrell Evans hit 41 HR and had 18 fielding runs at third for the Braves — 9.0 WAR Cesar Cedeno had his second consecutive great all-around season for the Astros — 7.3 WAR Speaking of all-around greatness, Bobby Bonds had his best season in the bigs and his second 30-30 year for the Giants — 7.7 WAR Reds 2B Joe Morgan put up his… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

@30/VZ;

I think that Stargell’s 1979 (co)MVP was more of a “lifetime achievement” or “makeup” award, as sometimes Oscar awards are. Maybe they felt bad about him not getting the MVP in ’71 or ’73, so they built up his ‘leadership’ role.

That sounds like the most reasonable explanations, as there’s just no way to justify his selection by either mainstream or advanced stats.

jeff hill

10 years ago

Reply to bells

Jeff Kent: Former MVP in 2000…which most of the 20 and over can’t say, first ALL TIME in HR by a 2nd baseman, 2nd in RBI at that position. The guy absolutely raked, gets no love.

bells

10 years ago

Reply to bells

Just for kicks, I added a fourth metric to my rankings, John A’s WAR*WAR/162 G and WAR*WAR/250 IP ranking as outlined in comment #36. It resulted in some jostling around of players, and further stratification at the top. Cumulative rankings of the top 15 guys up for consideration: 7 Reuschel 7 Brown 29 Tiant 36 Alomar 40 David Cone 41 Reggie Smith 43 Nettles 47 McGwire 48 Palmeiro 53 Buddy Bell 53 Drysdale 55 Randolph 56 Saberhagen 60 Bando 61 Boyer So the top guys look just as good, Cone and Smith move up, and guys like Bunning, Dawson and… Read more »

Mike HBC

10 years ago

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jim Eisenreich

Stubby

10 years ago

Willie Stargell, Dick Allen, Kitty Kaat

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

Ken Boyer
Kevin Brown
Dwight Evans

KalineCountry Ron

10 years ago

Bunning
Killebrew
Tiant

oneblankspace

10 years ago

DaMurphy (longest NL consecutive games streak during the Ripken Era),
EMurray (most homeruns by a switch-hitter not named Mantle),
Quisenberry (first pitcher with 89 saves in a two-season span)

Chris C

10 years ago

Alomar, Bunning, Murray.

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Alomar, Murray, … and Keith Hernandez.

Also, can we vote for players born in 1969 since we had the Griffey and Rivera vote? Not that I’m going to do that, but someone else might.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Yes, good point. I’ll fix that in the main post.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Some other notables not listed (as an addendum to VZ’s #3- Dave Cone, Bret Saberhagen, Kevin Appier

There’s no one that we’ve cut so far that I’m certain belongs in the COG but there are a few that I think might. I’ll vote for those who’s supporters seem to me to be the most ardent:

Rick Reuschel, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield

ATarwerdi96

10 years ago

Dennis Eckersley, Goose Gossage, Rafael Palmeiro

koma

10 years ago

Harmon Killebrew, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff

--bill

10 years ago

Kevin Brown, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant

RonG

10 years ago

Killebrew, Simmons, Evans

Bix

10 years ago

Eckersley, Gossage, Killebrew

Scary Tuna

10 years ago

Killebrew, Winfield, Kaat.

Paul E

10 years ago

In a homage to 60’s and 70’s baseball:

Dick Allen, Ted Simmons, Willie Stargell

Mike G.

10 years ago

Kevin Brown, Rick Reuschel, Luis Tiant

latefortheparty

10 years ago

Kevin Brown
Rick Reuschel
Luis Tiant

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Vote: Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Kevin Brown. Ranking the positional redemption candidates by the product of their WAR total and WAR/162 games: Product — Player … WAR … WAR/162 319 — Allen … 58.7 … 5.4 317 — Randolph … 65.6 … 4.8 315 — Boyer … 62.9 … 5.0 304 — Alomar … 66.8 … 4.5 277 — Nettles … 68.0 … 4.1 277 — Dw. Evans … 66.7 … 4.1 262 — Wynn … 55.7 … 4.7 256 — Dawson … 64.4 … 4.0 249 — Murray … 68.2 … 3.7 243 — Killebrew … 60.4 … 4.0… Read more »

bells

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I’ve been thinking about using WAR/162 in some way to evaluate players, but a) I didn’t want to use it straight and b) I didn’t really know what an equivalent for pitchers would be for 162 games. This method addresses both of those things in a pretty good way, I think. Nice stuff, John.

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to bells

Thanks, bells. I haven’t completely thought through the measures, and I’m not quite satisfied with WAR/250 IP. My gut says that modern guys get a longevity boost from lighter annual workloads, so pegging all pitchers to the same IP/Year standard isn’t quite fair. It’s a work in progress.

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Poor Reggie Smith gets overlooked yet again…

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

MJ, I’m a big fan of Reggie Smith. But I was just ranking the guys on this redemption ballot. FWIW, Smith’s WAR product is 338, which tops all hitters on this list, and all pitchers save Brown.

P.S. I don’t know if my made-up measure even works for comparing hitters to pitchers, but the ranges of these groups are similar.

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Yeah, I thought as much. I hope people aren’t just voting based on the names above, however. Mr. Smith is just one of many names that are worthy of consideration to be brought back.

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

Thanks, MJ, for making me realize the redemption ballot is open, not limited to those listed.

birtelcom clearly said that the lists weren’t limiting, but alas, I just looked at the lists. Shame on me!

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

VOTE CHANGE: Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Reggie Smith. (Adding Smith, dropping K.Brown.)

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

MJ @66: In terms of voters casting ballots for candidates not on the list in the post, first basemen seem to be a popular unlisted choice: Keith Hernandez, Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro have all received votes here despite none of them reaching four votes during the regular balloting, and thus not getting on my list in the post. All quite defensible votes, it seems to me BTW, for three of the most memorable players of recent times.

Also of course, Mike HBC’s marvelously unique and now traditional pro-courage ballot.

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

@71 JA: HA! Delighted to inform you! Unfortunately, it came at the expense of one of my picks, Kevin Brown. I didn’t vote for Reggie, but he’s in my Top 5.

bells

10 years ago

Reply to MJ

I remember last redemption round, I made a point to read each player bio of the top 20 or so players, and to look at the stats long and hard. Smith made my ballot, and I really liked what I read about him even though I had never heard of him and he was before my time. Alas, this time around there are about 4 really good candidates that have been added to the redemption ballot, so his turn will have to wait another day. JA, so you know, I’m gonna be trying out your per-game/inning ranking method on my… Read more »

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Nice job John. Anything that demonstrates to the rest of the universe Allen’s other-worldly talent is good with me. His oWAR numbers per 162 games, obviously, are even more impressive. I imagine Johnny Mize is as good a comparable as any player of the last 80 years?

Editor

John Autin

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

Sure, Mize is a great offensive comp for Allen. Very close in PAs, OPS+ and oWAR. Even the components of their OPS were very similar, compared to their contemporary park-adjusted league averages:

BA: Mize +13.9%, Allen +12.3%
OBP: Allen +16.3%, Mize +15.4%
SLG: Mize +42.6%, Allen +39.8%
OPS: Mize +29.9%, Allen +29.0%

I doubt you’d find two batting greats more similar by those measures.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to John Autin

And Mize couldn’t get elected to the Hall by the BBWAA either, nine times appearing on more than 25% of the ballots but never getting to 45%, much less 75%. So even if Allen had been universally well-liked, this set of credentials may not have been enough for the writers.

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

If you go to Mize’s B-R page, you’ll see the season he spent with the 1948 NY Giants is pretty typical of his career via OPS+ and OPS. If you place Allen in that same environment for his entire career, his stats improve greatly and look even more similar to Mize’s. However, with only 7,300 plate appearances, Allen wasn’t going to Cooperstown. Injuries played a big part in Allen’s career, but even if you take the period 1964 – 1974 and average it out over his career total of 1,749 games played, he still probably doesn’t have adequate counting stats… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

There’s the counter-example of Ralph Kiner, who, with counting stats similar to Allen’s, managed to squeak in via the BBWAA ballot just barely and in his final year on the ballot. It probably helped Kiner that he had a strong on-going presence in baseball as a broadcaster.

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Paul E

@48/Paul E,
If you give Mize three years credit for WWII, he looks closer to someone like Frank Thomas, on a level clearly better than Dick Allen.

To get into the HOF with a short career, you’ve got to be really dominant, and with only 1,749 G and 7,315 PA, Allen wasn’t quite dominant enough for a lot of voters.

Paul E

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@63 LA

I agree. What’s really bizarre is that those goofballs at the BBWAA who were Mize’s contemporaries didn’t at least give him some credit for the three missed years. It wouldn’t be a stretch to add 80 homers and 300 RBI to his career totals for the missed time, but they apparently did for Hank Greenberg.

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@64/Paul E, Great minds think alike, ha ha ha! Actually, Hank Greenberg didn’t have an easy time getting into the HOF either – it took him nine votes from 1949-1956, including a run-off. And he’d won two MVPs and was recognized as one of the game’s premier sluggers (331 HR was 5th all-time in 1947 when he retired). Guess whom Hammerin’ Hank’s #1 most similar batter is – Johnny Mize. From what I’ve read, at first the BWAAA HOF voters did not give anyone _any_ WWII credit, which really hurt guys like Hank, Mize, and Slaughter (guys like Feller, DiMaggio… Read more »

bstar

10 years ago

Off-topic: Mr. birtelcom, are we doing NCAA bracketology this year?

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to bstar

I’ve got too much going on at the moment to do the NCAAs this year, but if anybody else out there wants to organize an HHS group on ESPN, yahoo, etc., go for it.

Francisco

10 years ago

Jeff Kent, Harmon Killebrew, Kevin Brown

Phil

10 years ago

Alomar, Winfield, Sutton.

aweb

10 years ago

Brown, Killebrew, McGwire

Gary Bateman

10 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Quisenberry

mosc

10 years ago

Murray, Nettles, Winfield

Other guys I have in: Eckersley, Sutton

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

10 years ago

Kevin Brown, Dennis Eckersley, Mark McGwire

Brent

10 years ago

The Quiz, Alomar and Kevin Brown

JEV

10 years ago

Killebrew, Brown, Kent

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Leaders thus far, with 34 votes in:
Kevin Brown 13
Harmon Killebrew 11
Winfield, Alomar and Murray tied at 8
Rick Reuschel 6
Eckersley, Tiant and Quisenberry tied at 4
Dick Allen, Jim Bunning and Willie Stargell tied at 3

Low T

10 years ago

Boyer, Allen, Brown

paget

10 years ago

Wow, to me this is the toughest round of COG voting we’ve had since the start of the process. As we move on through the years, these redemption rounds might become increasingly the votes that are the most fun to take part in. (Could be a reason to have them, maybe, twice every ten years instead of just once?)

I’ve extended votes to fully nine of the players on this list; I find it almost impossible to choose!

Winfield
Murray
Killebrew

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to paget

I agree. More voting rounds. The redemption round is arguably more stocked than the main ballot. (well, it is bigger at least – three times as big (including the unmentionables)). ……. no, it is just as stocked. There are arguable equivalents to every holdover. Kevin Brown – Sandy Koufax Willie Randolph – Whitaker/Grich Willie Stargell – Ernie Banks Luis Tiant – Juan Marichal Craig Nettles – Ron Santo Dennis Eckersley – John Smoltz Roberto Alomar – Craig Biggio Dick Allen – Edgar Martinez Eddie Murray – Willie McCovey Jeff Kent – Ryne Sandberg The only one without a comp is… Read more »

bells

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I’ll add to the chorus of those excited about more redemption rounds. The talent starts to thin out as we go back in years, and although it doesn’t look like we’ll go below 9 good candidates in any given year until the turn of the century, more choice is fun (just look at the main ballot this year). Every 5 years might be a bit much, but maybe you wanna roll it back a bit, birtelcom, and make it 9 years until the next one, then 8, etc…? Or every ten ballots instead of years, which ends up being 13… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to bells

My main concern about more redemption rounds is that I don’t want to too drastically water down the importance of staying on the ballot. The guys who who have been selected by the voters to stay on the ballot really should get a solid benefit over those who the voters have chosen to drop off, and if it becomes too easy to get back on the ballot, that benefit is narrowed. But we do also want the ballots to be competitive and talent-rich, and if it looks like the holdover list is dropping down to the point where it’s becoming… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Vote 1:
Kenny Lofton
Kevin Brown

Vote 2:
Edgar Martinez
Kenny Lofton

Vote 3:
Dave Winfield
Rick Rueschel

So, of the six names voted back on the ballot,
two have stayed (both from Vote 2), and neither has come close to winning a round.

(no point, just enjoying making lists)

Abbott

10 years ago

Alomar, Murray, Brown

Mike HBC

10 years ago

Reply to Abbott

Your lack of support for Jim Abbott is disappointing.

…Not really- I obviously don’t vote like anyone else. But still.

10 years ago

Jamie Moyer, Eddie Murray, Kevin Brown. I’m sticking with Moyer like the orchestra stuck with the Titanic.

Come to think of it, Jamie Moyer might have actually been on the Titanic…

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Murray, Alomar, Brown

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

– Eddie Murray
– Roberto Alomar
– Harmon Killebrew

Three HOFers (out of 11 listed), elected in their 1st, 2nd, and 5th year respectively. This is the best illustration of the higher standards of the COG vs. the actual HOF.

Brendan Bingham

10 years ago

Murray, Tiant, Allen

bstar

10 years ago

Allen, Reuschel, Murray

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Eddie Murray named on the last seven ballots in a row, after appearing on 8 of the first 35.

David Horwich

10 years ago

Alomar (Roberto), Nettles, Tiant I voted for Alomar 27 times, I’m hardly about to stop now. Tiant has little chance of being redeemed, but he’s a personal favorite (easier to like him than Brown, that’s for sure). As for Nettles…I think we may be in danger of replicating the HoF’s underrepresentation of third basemen. This isn’t obvious at first glance, as the current list of CoG’ers by position looks like this through 50 rounds: P: 16 C: 4 1B/DH: 3 2B: 2 3B: 5 SS: 5 LF: 4 CF: 3 RF: 7 U: 1 (Rose) I’m counting Carew as a… Read more »

Arsen

10 years ago

Alomar, Tiant, Allen

Josh

10 years ago

Dave Winfield, Harmon Killebrew, Goose Gossage