Circle of Greats: 1931 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 49th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the addition of players born in 1931.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1931 are being brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split based on the half of the year in which they were born — those born between January 1, 1931 and June 30, 1931 are being added to the ballot this round, while those born later in 1931 were added in last week’s voting.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes in this round of balloting.

As usual, the new group of 1931-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility (unless they appear on 75% or more of the ballots, in which case they win six added eligibility rounds).  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EST on Saturday, March 8, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST on Thursday, March 6.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here:COG 1931 Part 2 Vote Tally .  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1931 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1931 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were seventeen players born in 1931 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. Eight of those are being added to the eligible list this round, those born in the first six months of the year.  The nine players born later in the year were added last week.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Eddie Mathews (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Jim Bunning (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1931, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Willie Mays
Ernie Banks
Ken Boyer
Ed Bailey
Bill Virdon
Don Zimmer

Pitchers (born in 1931, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Hank Aguirre
Larry Jackson

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T-Bone
T-Bone
10 years ago

Mays
Banks
Sandberg

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Only 8 newcomers but at least 3 and possibly a 4th belong in the HOF. That said, I think only 2 warrant serious consideration for the COG.

Mays, Grich, Sandberg

Joel
Joel
10 years ago

Mays
Banks
Mathews

bells
bells
10 years ago

So lately for voting I’ve been ranking guys on 3 characteristics: WAR, WAA+ and JAWS. Willie Mays’ scores for the three of those, respectively, are 156.1/110.8/114.8. Egad, that’s mind-boggling. Anyway, here are the 16 candidates on the ballot worthy of consideration ranked by those 3 methods, with cumulative ranking next to the names and ranking on the respective categories in parentheses). Willie Mays gets a cumulative ranking of 3, as he’s #1 on all 3 measures, and Koufax gets a 48, as he’s #16 on all 3 measures. Mays 3 (1 1 1) Mathews 6 (2 2 2) Grich 12… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

What a ballot! I don’t think we’ve ever had THIS much talent before, where a guy as good as Ken Boyer not only probably won’t make the next round, but quite possibly won’t even get a vote!

Willie Mays
Eddie Mathews
Ron Santo

(I have Santo just a smidge over Banks). And look at all these long-time Cubbies: Santo, Sandberg, Banks, and Jackson. Huh. That’s interesting, no?

BillH
BillH
10 years ago

Mays
Marichal
McCovey

And I’m not even a Giants fan.

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Willie Mays, Eddie Mathews, Lou Whitaker

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago

Mays, Marichal, Martinez.

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Mays, Biggio, Edgar

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Willie Mays, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
10 years ago

Willie Mays
Eddie Mathews
Bobby Grich

Will Mays be the first 100 percent inductee? I was surprised that Aaron and Mantle didn’t come in higher.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews, oufax

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Welcome back, birtelcom!

When I try to view the spreadsheet with the ballot count, I get an “access denied” message from google drive. Don’t know what’s up with that – haven’t had it happen before,

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Anyone know why the Cards moved Boyer to CF in 1957?
He had just come off of a splendid 2nd year season with bat and glove.
CF was a black hole for St Louis, but they didn’t have a suitable 3B replacement, and it doesnt look like Boyer had any minor league outfield experience.

bstar
bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The Cards wanted to make room for Eddie Kasko at third in 1957 so they moved Boyer to CF (per wikipedia).

donburgh
donburgh
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Maybe if they hadn’t traded Virdon in 1956 it wouldn’t have been a black hole.

JasonZ
10 years ago

Artie Wilson’s obituary in the New York Times mentions that he hit .402 in 1948 for the Birmingham Black Barons when he mentored a young Willie Mays.

The Times Obituary goes on to say that this is thought to be the last time anyone exceeded .400 at the highest level of professional baseball.

As for Willie, his page at B-ref is a wonder.

Here is a stat that jumps off the screen…

5ft. 10in. 170lbs.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  JasonZ

Ive wondered what stage in the player’s career b/r is taking that weight measurement. Here are the weights of the top ten homer guys.
Some seem right, some do not:

185 Bonds
180 Aaron
215 Ruth
170 Mays
225 Alex
195 Griffey
250 Thome
165 Sosa (I typed that correctly)
183 Robinson
215 McGwire

TJay
TJay
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Voomo, I have often wondered about these weights as well.
Most seem like rookie weights although I don’t recall A-Rod and Thome being that heavy when they first came up.
If I had to guess the weights for each player at their power peak I would say:
Bonds-235
Alex- 235
Griffey- 225
Thome- 255
Sosa- 225
McGwire- 260
So Sosa “grew” the most of modern players in my mind.

I doubt Aaron and Mays ever saw 200 lbs although Robinson may have at the end of his career.
Ruth I have no idea- 240 at his peak?

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  TJay

According to Bill Bryson’s book “One Summer” (about the summer of 1927) “Over the course of his career, it was calculated Ruth had gained and lost two and a half tons.”
This seems a little unlikely since that works out to gaining and losing well over 100 pounds a year, even as a 19 year old.

PP
PP
10 years ago
Reply to  JasonZ

What jumps out at me is that he led the league in walks and OBP at 40, when he also had 31 more strikeouts than he had in any other year, the only black ink he has after ’65

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
10 years ago
Reply to  PP

I’m guessing that Mays realized that at 40 he was losing bat speed, and he was consciously working the count more, resulting in more BB’s and K’s.

Strange that 1971 was the only year he had 100+ of both.

Doug
Editor
10 years ago

Some random musings: – Don Zimmer is the only player since 1901 with 1000+ games thru age 33 who afterwards caught 30+ games in a season for the first time. Zimmer is also one of only 9 players since 1901 with 275 games at each of 2B, 3B anmd SS, including two (Nick Punto, Michael Young) who were active in 2013. – Ed Bailey shares with HOFer Ernie Lombardi the distinction of being the only players to catch 250 games for both the Reds and the Giants. Bailey is also the only catcher with a home run for his lone… Read more »

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Steve Carlton is one of the others to follow a 20 win season with a 20 loss season. I thought Phil Niekro might be the other, but he’s not.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Do the 20 win and 20 loss seasons need to be consecutive? If not, then Denny McLain, Wilbur Wood, and Phil Niekro all meet the criteria (20 loss season after a league-leading 20 win season).

Doug
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Yes. It’s in consecutive seasons.

Carlton and Wood are the other two.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I’m confused (er, more so than usual, that is) – is the 20-win season supposed to be league-leading? If so, then Wood doesn’t fit the criteria.

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Yes, the 20 win season must lead the league.

Wood led the AL with 24 wins in 1972, and then lost 20 in 1973.

He also won 20 in 1974 and lost 20 in 1975, but did not lead the AL in wins in 1974.

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Fun 20/20, Doug.

Jerry Koosman came close — 21 wins in ’76, one behind Randy Jones, then lost 20 in ’77. (Jones himself had lost a league-high 22 in ’74, then won 20 in ’75.)

Some more who went from 20 wins to 20 losses:

Stan Bahnsen, Wood’s 21-win teammate on the ’72 ChiSox, lost a league-high 21 the next year.

Luis Tiant, 1968-69
Mel Stottlemyre, 1965-66
Murry Dickson went from 20 wins to 21 losses, then 19, then 20.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug @ 52-

Oh, right – duh. I had some sort of brain lock where I wasn’t processing 1973 as a 20-loss season; I suppose I got distracted by the black ink in the wins column.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Haven’t figured it out yet but I have found a few oddities:

Wilbur Wood came within 1 loss of doing both in the same season (1973)
Dolf Luque did it in reverse by leading the league in losses in 1922 with 23 and wins in 1923 with 27.

Doug
Doug
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

The pitcher second to Jackson in longest streak of 13 win seasons to end a career is Allie Reynolds. They had similar ERA+ (113 for Jackson, 109 for Reynolds) but very dissimilar winning percentages (.515 for Jackson, .630 for Reynolds, despite a BB/9 twice as high as Jackson). Reynolds had qualifying seasons with ERA+ scores of 85 and 161, but everything else was between 100 and 126. Jackson was even more consistent, with a high/low of 138/96 and everything else between 109 and 128. I thought maybe Casey was keeping Reynolds away from the better clubs, but doesn’t seem to… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I think maybe the damning with faint praise approach doesn’t do justice to Reynolds.

Against the best the NL had to offer he produced a 7-2 W-L, 4 saves, 2 shutouts, ERA of 2.79. His high walk totals are merely representative of the era, especially in the AL, not something pertaining to him alone. Jackson was a better pitcher, but Reynolds wasn’t just so-so by any means, or not for the times in which he played.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

To carry this a little further, the big three of the Cleveland Indians of that era, Lemon, Wynn, and Garcia, had the following W-L records against the Yankees: 28-33, 26-36, and 13-18. Reynolds’s W-L against the Indians was 19-13. And yes, the Yankees were the better team, but not by that much, about five more wins per season; also, offensively the Tribe put up good numbers. Going against the best opposition, Reynolds showed his mettle, that’s the point. The two HOFers for the Indians went kind of slack against the team they had to beat, as did Garcia, whose shorter… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Very puzzling is Allie Reynolds’s 4.8 WAR for 1952. He led the majors in ERA and ERA+ (2.06 and 161), also in RA/9 (2.58). He ranked 2nd in strikeouts, 6th in SO/9, 5th in HR/9, and 11th with 244 IP. But his 4.8 WAR tied for 10th. Granted, the Yanks were a great defensive team. But in the entire live-ball era, out of 75 pitcher-seasons of 230+ IP, ERA+ of 150 or better, and RA/9 less than 2.70, Reynolds was the only one to earn less than 5.1 WAR. Reynolds pitched more against winners than losers that year, and had… Read more »

bstar
bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John: several things jump out about Reynolds’ 1952 season and his seemingly low WAR total. -Reynolds allowed 14 unearned runs in 1952, 20% of his total of 70 runs allowed. This was easily his highest percentage of unearned runs allowed for his career. -Reynolds’ park factor for 1952 (a weighted average of all the parks he pitched in that season) was a career-low 93.0 mark. -You mentioned the good Yanks’ defense. B-Ref’s RA9defense metric suggests 1952’s squad was the best defensive unit Reynolds pitched in front of. An RA9def of +0.35 per 9 for ’52 suggests his defense saved Reynolds… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

b, thanks for several sound points, such as RA/9def and RA/9opp. But, I would toss the UER and the park factor. As noted, he led the majors not only plain ERA, but also in ERA+ (which takes in the park factor) and in RA/9 (which moots the UER). I realize that for any group of seasons with similar IP and ERA+, *someone* has to have the lowest WAR, *someone* has to have the best defensive support. Still, there’s a stark difference between Reynolds’s WAR and that of all other live-ball pitchers in his range of IP and ERA+. Since 1920,… Read more »

bstar
bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John, thanks. We’re not arguing here, but I wouldn’t dismiss the UER. I did something similar to you, but instead of looking at all seasons with similar IP and an ERA+ over 150, I put Reynolds’ 161 ERA+ right in the middle and looked at post-deadball seasons within 10 IP of 244 innings and within 5 points of his ERA+ on either side. So, IP between 234 and 254 and an ERA+ between 156 and 166. That search yielded 22 pitcher seasons. Reynolds’ UER/R of 20% is the third-highest of those 22, with only two seasons from the 1930s being… Read more »

bstar
bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Edit: John, sorry, in my haste I missed that you did a similar study to mine @78 where you put Reynolds in the middle. I was looking at the specs of your first study @74 while typing my response.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Alex Kellner is the other, in 1949 and 1950.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Doug: Is leading the league in wins a criterion, because Kellner did not?

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

I think leading the league in wins is a criterion, otherwise there are other players who fit the bill, e.g. Luis Tiant and Mel Stottlemyre Sr.

Also, Doug said Jackson was the first live-ball era pitcher to accomplish the feat, which puts 1964-65 as the early boundary – and since (with the exception of Mike Maroth) nobody has lost 20 games since 1980, these all must have occurred from 1965-80.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Wilbur Wood tied for the league lead in wins with Gaylord Perry in 1972 with 24. In 1973 Wood had 20 losses, along with 24 wins.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Since 1920 there have been 304 pitchers with at least 1 20+ win season and 82 pitchers with at least 1 20+ loss season. 34 of them have at least 1 of each.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

It makes me very sad to see Boyer and Jackson on this list. Jackson probably doesn’t REALLY deserve COG consideration, but I would think that Boyer does. Since Doug’s lists are usually about those who won’t even get votes, it’s a shame to see Boyer included in that group.

Doug
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I agree.

Strange how those birth years go. 1931 and 1934 were loaded. But, very little in between.

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Boyer, Virdon, and Jackson were rookies together on the Cardinals in 1955. Jackson and Bunning pitched in 1966-67 for the Phillies. The Cards came up with promising players year after year in the mid-Fifties—the three above, Harv Haddix, Ray Jablonski, Rip Repuski, Wally Moon, Lindy McDaniel, Joe Cunningham, and I guess you could throw in Don Blasingame and Luis Arroyo. All but Boyer went on to play more of their careers for other teams. Moon was vital to the Dodgers in two pennant runs, Jackson was a star in Chicago and Philadelphia, Virdon and Haddix both had their best years… Read more »

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews, Koufax

Kerry Robinson
Kerry Robinson
10 years ago

Willie Mays, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks

koma
koma
10 years ago

Sandy Koufax, Craig Biggio, Willie Mays

PaulE
PaulE
10 years ago

Grich
McCovey
Sandberg

oneblankspace
10 years ago

Craig Biggio
Willie Mays (Mr. Mays, why was it you never had a season with 50 HR and 50 SB? — I didn’t know I had to.)
Ernie Banks
Ernie Banks (lets play two today!)

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews, Koufax

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Vote:

Boyer
Bunning
Lofton

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Mays, Koufax.

TJay
TJay
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews, Banks.
I still remember marveling at their stats (formerly elite 500 HR club) on the back of my baseball cards in the late 60’s and early 70’s.
Willie Mac was there too.
Also grew up in Florida as a Cards fan, hard not to throw a vote for Boyer.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Mays, Santo, Boyer

Not that I think either Santo or Boyer are better than Mathews, but Boyer really shouldn’t fall off the list this fast. He’s more of a “maybe” guy for me, but I’d like more time to consider him (and the redemption round is already going to be brutal). Mathews will get my vote in the 1930 ballot.

The 1929 ballot is the one I’m waiting for – assuming Mays wins this one and Mathews the next, the 1929 ballot should be wide open.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Agreed. That’s why I voted for Boyer.
Santo has such strong support. Will likely win a voting round in the next five elections. Yet I think Boyer vs Santo is a good discussion.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I think Boyer is borderline COG at best. I’d compare him more to Sal Bando than Santo:

Bando 119 OPS+, 61.6 WAR, 2019 GP
Boyer 116 OPS+, 62.9 WAR, 2034 GP
Santo 125 OPS+, 70.6 WAR, 2243 GP

If I recall correctly, Bando didn’t make it to a second round of voting. Boyer would make a reasonable HoF’er, but I think he falls just short of the CoG.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

Boyer had a nine-year peak averaging 6.1 WAR.
That puts him in the company of a lot of the guys who have maintained support on this ballot.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

OK, but then Bando had an 8-year peak averaging 5.9 WAR.

Maybe rather than arguing that that Boyer isn’t CoG-worthy, I should be arguing that Bando is…

Anyway, I just don’t see that much separation between the two of them – I’d rate Boyer a little higher, but only a little, not enough to think that one deserves to stay on the ballot when the other got bounced in short order (like Boyer, Bando came on the ballot in a tough year, same ballot as Seaver and Carlton).

bstar
bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I was looking at the Bando/Boyer comp earlier today and I can’t see a difference.

Boyer: 184 Rbat, 73 Rfield, 13 baserunning runs
Bando: 206 Rbat, 36 Rfield, 12 baserunning runs

Boyer has a few more replacement runs due to playing in the NL.

Neither of these two toiled in obscurity. Seven top-10 MVP finishes including a win for Boyer and three top-5s for Bando.

Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is Boyer was given a second shot at the Hall by being put back on the ballot a second time in 1985 (although it ultimately didn’t help him).

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Looking at Bando, I see that the ’72 Athletics had 5 position players with at least 5.2 WAR.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/OAK/1972.shtml#players_value_batting::13

__________________________

Wondering who had done that before.
And I found this post by Andy.
With the ’72 A’s omitted:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/9980

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I wonder if the ’72 A’s are missing from that list because at the time the post was written bb-ref was setting replacement level higher than it does now – so the A’s might not have had 5 players with 5+ WAR per the old calculations.

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Mays Grich Bunning

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Mays, Banks, McCovey

KalineCountry Ron
10 years ago

The incomparable Willie Mays

Eddie Mathews

Ernie Banks

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
10 years ago

Willie Mays, Eddie Mathews, Ron Santo

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Mays
Mathews
Banks

Josh
Josh
10 years ago

Willie Mays, Eddie Mathews, and once again Juan Marichal

I think Ernie Banks is better than Marichal, but I never really liked Banks for some reason so I won’t be voting for him until the rest of the spread starts to thin.

If you were going by the Circle of Great Baseball Minds, Don Zimmer by a landslide.

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

Mays, grich, lofton

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Mays, Matthews, Banks

Francisco
Francisco
10 years ago

Marichal, Mays, Mathews

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
10 years ago

Bunning, McCovey, and Mays

opal611
opal611
10 years ago

For the 1931-Part Two election, I’m voting for:
-Ryne Sandberg
-Edgar Martinez
-Eddie Mathews

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Smoltz
-Whitaker
-Grich
-Lofton
-Santo
-McCovey
-Biggio
-Mays
-Banks

Mike L
Mike L
10 years ago

One more picture from Bechloss. DiMaggio and Gehrig. Check out the athleticism.
https://twitter.com/BeschlossDC/status/440245860559880192/photo/1

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Mike L, that’s not bad, for a guy they called Biscuit Pants. I’m also admiring the perfectly level check-swing by DiMag.

Joseph
Joseph
10 years ago

mays, banks, mccovey

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews, Bunning.

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Biggio, Grich, Koufax

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews, Grich

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Mays, Banks, McCovey

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

Mays, Boyer, Marichal

John Z
John Z
10 years ago

Mays, Marichal, McCovey

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Mays, Mathews and Banks

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons: Mays 110.8 Mathews 58.9 Grich 43.6 Santo 43.3 Whitaker 42.7 Martinez 41.3 Smoltz 40.1 Lofton 39.3 McCovey 38.9 Sandberg 38.8 Banks 36.8 Bunning 36.7 Biggio 36.3 Boyer 34.1 Marichal 32.7 Koufax 32.3 I’m not sure my excuse for voting for Edgar most rounds holds up here. He wasn’t a better hitter than Mays or a better player than Mathews. He’s got almost a 5-point edge in positive WAA on Banks, but WAA might be even more unfair to Banks than it is to Martinez, since it appears Banks was moved to first when… Read more »

bstar
bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

I tried to research what exact injury Banks had to prompt the move from short to first. Wikipedia mentions a knee-injury flareup from his youth. It must have been pretty severe for it to be a permanent move to first. If it wasn’t that serious, I agree, Bryan. It cost Banks some defensive value. He had just cranked out 50 fielding runs the four years prior to the move to first (most in the NL) and had snagged a Gold Glove in 1960. Most shortstops who are that skilled defensively tend to stay above-average fielders well past age 30. I… Read more »

no statistician but
no statistician but
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I looked up Ernie’s game logs for that year and discovered something I knew about and forgot. When his knee began bothering him, he was first shifted to left field, then first base. Eventually he was back at short, went out for ten games, came back at short, and missed the last six games of the season. He was, remember, Ernie Banks, the only marquee player the Cubs had, a guy whose motto was “let’s play two,” a guy who ran a streak of 717 consecutive games played—which I think ended mid-season 1961 because of the knee problem. The management… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

At season’s end Banks and Mathews were tied for the NL lead with 45 HR in 1959. Mathews homered in the playoff between the Dodgers and the Braves to break the tie.

bstar
bstar
10 years ago

Yeah, nsb, I saw that about his game logs and how he got shifted around in 1961, thanks.

David’s article @98 is a great read and does describe the knee injury as “career-altering” and one that may have affected his hitting the rest of his career.

Either that, or Banks’ move to first was a result of the collective non-wisdom of Chicago’s rotating “College of Coaches” in 1961-62. Mr. Wrigley should have known that too many cooks spoil the vichyssoise.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar @ 95 –

Here’s a decent article on Banks:

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2007/2/18/53329/7647

But it too only mentions a “knee injury”, in May 1961. As nsb notes, in late May Banks moved to LF for 3 weeks, then 1B for a week, then sat out a week, before returning to SS for the remainder of the season.

Since he only plsyed 1B for a week that season, I doubt it had much effect on his hitting; his rates stats for the 2nd half of 1961 are virtually identical to the 1st half of that season.

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Martinez, Sandberg, Santo

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Mays, Biggio, McCovey