Circle of Greats: 1934 Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 45th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round completes the group of players born in 1934.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

The first group of players born in 1934, with A-Ka surnames, were voted on in last week’s balloting. This round continues with players born in 1934 and having Ke-Z surnames. This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes in this round of balloting.

As usual, this new group of 1934-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility (unless they appear on 75% or more of the ballots, in which case they win six added eligibility rounds).  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM PST Thursday, February 6th, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM PST, Tuesday, February 4th.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1934 Round 2 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1934 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 17 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility.  The new group of 1934 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Bob Gibson (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Roberto Clemente (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Sandy Koufax (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Al Kaline (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Juan Marichal (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Harmon Killebrew  (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1934, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Lee Maye
Bill White
Russ Snyder
Leon Wagner
Roger Maris
Andre Rodgers
Jim Landis
Felix Mantilla
John Romano
Marty Keough

Pitchers (born in 1934, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Camilo Pascual
Jim Owens
Earl Wilson

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Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Marichal, Grich, Biggio

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

Doug, thank you. Glad you could step in!

Kaline, Koufax, Clemente

Not voting for Gibson makes me feel dirty.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago

Isn’t Santo supposed to have a banked round? I think he made 10% on the other ballot.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  mosc

Yeah, by the 9 person rule, Santo stays at 2 rounds and Sandberg stays on the ballot bubble. I don’t like the 9 person rule, but that’s what it is. 9 people don’t lose a round including anybody who ties for 9th or higher. Santo and Sandberg tied for 9th, they both don’t lose a round.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Marichal had two rounds last vote.

birtelcom
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Here’s a worksheet I’ve been using to keep track of the holdovers. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AklDUJiangSrdG9DVWU1U2VfYmJ2Tnd3OVB4VEF4TlE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

mo
mo
10 years ago

Whitaker, Gison, Clemente

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago

Koufax, Kaline, Gibson

Doug: I hope your temporary stint as running the COG voting doesn’t interrupt your quizzes.

birtelcom
Editor
10 years ago

This is very cool. Thanks for picking up for me, Doug.

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Gibson, Biggio, Edgar

Mike
Mike
10 years ago

Bob Gibson
Roberto Clemente
Sandy Koufax

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Roberto Clemente
WAR, by four year increment:

21-24 2.7
25-28 4.8
29-32 7.8
33-36 7.1

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Sorry about the number jumble.
The ages and stats were well-spaced on my form.

Can you someone explain (simply) how to do that better?

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The numbers lined up well.

I’m no expert, but one thing I do to align names as closely as possible it to try and use the same number of characters by abbreviating longer names and spelling out the shorter ones. Like this:

Hank Aaron
R Clemente
HKillebrew
Tony Gwynn

WordPress will still do what it does, but it’s about the best you can do with names.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar,
what i meant was the lack-of-space between clemente’s age and WAR. Here:

21-24 2.7

I would like to hit the equivalent of “tab” after the number 24.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Try a series of dots between the 24 and the 2.7. Use the same number of dots for each line. And, as bstar, says try to keep the same number of characters in each column, which you do have in your comment anyway.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Got it. A comma, colon, or dash (if you hadn’t already used one) after 24 is about the best I can make it look.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I’m a believer. I think in today’s baseball he would have been given more of a chance in center over Virdon and given the green light more often on the basepaths. With a kinder RPOS and RBASE, especially in the younger years there, I think we would have seen a very wide peak player with a very soft fall off to his career and among the best valued careers in history. I also think that Clemente felt like the producer for so many years, he was not the type to take a walk and defer to lesser bats behind him… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

So obviously a ‘roider.
😉

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Gibson, Kaline, Whitaker

ATarwerdi96
10 years ago

Roberto Clemente, Bob Gibson, Al Kaline

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Clemente 59.3
Kaline 58.6
Gibson 50.0
Grich 43.6
Santo 43.3
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Biggio 36.3
Allen 35.9
Murray 34.9
Killebrew 33.0
Marichal 32.7
Koufax 32.3
Maris 21.6

I actually support Maris’s Hall of Fame case, but he’s nowhere near the Circle of Greats, which is a good thing given the continuing glut of talent on the ballot. This may call for a rare (for me) strategic vote to protect Edgar, but for now, I’ll play it straight.

Clemente, Kaline, Gibson

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago

Allen
McCovey
Sandberg

I hereby promise that I will stop voting for these guys when they fall off the ballot 🙁

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

So you promise that once you are no longer able to do something, you will no longer do it? What a guy!

I hereby promise that I will breathe until I asphyxiate, die, or grow gills.

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

A little confused. Part I balloting said Marichal had 2 rounds eligibility left. Either way, my vote is:

Koufax, McCovey, Kaline

John Z
John Z
10 years ago

My M and M & M boys…..
Steady Eddie
Stretch
&
The Dominican Dandy

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

Clemente, Kaline, Gibson

Was surprised the Maris’s Fielding WAR wasn’t higher (-1.7 lifetime). My impression was part of the reason he played on the St Louis Teams was because of his defense.

bstar
10 years ago
Reply to  jajacob

jajacob, try using dWAR just when you’re comparing Maris to all fielders in baseball.

For RF defense, just use his fielding runs (Rfield) without the positional adjustment.

Maris was +45 Rfield for his career, so your impression matches his TZ numbers.

Francisco
Francisco
10 years ago

Marichal, Clemente, Gibson

KalineCountry Ron
10 years ago

Kaline
Clemente
Koufax

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Doug, there are 17 current holdovers, not 15 as you state in the 7th paragraph.

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
10 years ago

Roberto Clemente
Al Kaline
Bob Gibson

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline, Bob Gibson

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Since I currently live about a 5 minute drive from the Roger Maris museum in Fargo and went to college here there’s a real temptation to make him my first “shout out” vote ever. But since there are 9 people on the ballot that I am absolutely certain belong in the COG plus another 6 that I think at least might belong that’s not going to happen.

Kaline, Santo, Sandberg

Darien
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Oh, you live in Fargo, Hartvig? I stopped in Fargo a couple years back on my cross-country adventure (actually drove the 300 miles there from Menomenie with my radiator held together by duct tape — but that’s a long story!). I remember it mainly as the hottest place in the entire world; I think it was over a hundred degrees that day, and totally flat and wide open. Not what I expected from North Dakota at all!

Also I remember discovering that there’s still a Ground Round in Fargo and being super excited. That’s a blast from the past! 😀

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Darien

Ground Round is still there! In fact, from where I’m at, all you do instead of turning left to go a couple of blocks to the Roger Maris museum (which is actually located in a shopping mall but it even has a small theater room where you can watch a short biographical film of Maris and a bunch of different clips of him playing) you go right about 4 blocks to get to the restaurant. And yes it gets really hot in North Dakota. In fact I remember lots of 100 degree days when I was growing up he in… Read more »

bells
bells
10 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

Would you say the Roger Maris Museum is worth a stop? Is it fairly compact (ie. can I drop in for an hour and be on my way)? Just asking because I’m your neighbour to the north (live in Winnipeg) and I’m through now and then, particularly in a couple of weeks when I’m heading south for a bit. That’d be a pretty decent break after 4 hours of driving; if it was compelling enough, it might get me to consider him for the next redemption round 😉

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  bells

Is it worth a stop? Most definitely. I wouldn’t make the drive from Winnipeg to here just to see it but if you’re coming down anyways and trying to decide between Grand Forks and Fargo it would at least be worth part of the extra 75 mile drive between the two. And if you go in the right Mall entrance you can literally be there within 5 minutes from being on Interstate. You can literally see all they have to offer by just standing in one place and easily glance over most everything and even watch some videos within an… Read more »

bells
bells
10 years ago
Reply to  bells

Cool! Thanks for the detail. I have to admit that I really tend to enjoy local museums; I like histories that aren’t necessarily ‘great men’ narratives, and a museum dedicated to one baseball player seems like it’d be a fun stop to enrich what I know of the guy (not much). And yeah, maybe not a destination location, but I am occasionally through towards Minneapolis, or part of a general trip. If I make it by, I’ll be sure to mention it here whenever a relevant topic comes up.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago
Reply to  bells

When I visited the Maris Museum ca. 2004, they had Comiskey Park misspelled on their list of the 61 homeruns in 1961.

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Bob Gibson, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Hmmm… I thought I had voted, but it looks like it disappeared or didn’t submit or something.

Clemente
Gibson
Kaline

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Earl Wilson homered more frequently than Eddie Murray, Stan Musial, Dave Winfield, Carl Yastrzemski, Andre Dawson, Cal Ripken, Billy Williams, Darrell Evans … and his ’68 World Champs teammate, Al Kaline.

wx
wx
10 years ago

Roberto Clemente, Sandy Koufax, Al Kaline

bstar
10 years ago

This is really tough.

Clemente, Lofton, Murray

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago

BGibson — 9 GS in the World Series, 1960-69 : was 2nd among all pitchers (Ford)

RMaris — 41 GP in the World Series, 1960-69 : led all players

CBiggio — 668 career doubles leads all right-handed hitters
(followed by H.Aaron©, Molitor©, C.Ripken©, Yount©, I.Rodriguez, Kent, M.Ramirez, Heilmann, Hornsby, Medwick, Winfield, A.Simmons, F.Robinson©, Jeter@, Pujols@, Mays)
where @=active and ©=Circle of Greats member

CPascual led the AL in WAR (pitchers + position players) in 1959 as I discovered looking up stats for JLandis on b-r.

Voting for Gibson, Maris, Biggio

Darien
10 years ago
Reply to  oneblankspace

I was assuming that meant “Molitor” is ©2014 oneblankspace. 😉

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Santo, Kaline, Clemente

Stay tuned Bob Gibson – you just have more rounds than these guys.

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago

Al Kaline, Roberto Clemente, Bob Gibson.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago

Roberto Clemente, Juan Marichal, Lou Whitaker. After 53 years, Cuba is back at the Caribbean Series. The Lagartos (Alligators) de Villa Clara (Serie Nacional champions) will play against Liga Mexicana del Pacífico´s champion, Naranjeros (Orange Growers) de Hermosillo, on saturday night. Also in the tournament, the Dominican Republic is represented by Tigres de Licey, Puerto Rico´s team is Indios (Indians) de Mayaguez, and for the host Venezuela will play Navegantes (Navigators) del Magallanes. From February 1-8, baseball followers from the countries mentioned above, will have a chance to watch meaningful games (at least to most of us). Now we return… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Luis, is Cuba’s return to La Serie del Caribe connected with Ozzie Guillen’s role in the ESPN coverage? I’m making a stupid joke, of course; but Ozzie really is part of ESPN’s crew. They should have him interview the Cuban players about Fidel. But no, I guess there wouldn’t be much point unless they felt free to speak their true minds. (I’m not being sarcastic, by the way.) Anyway, I see that Mexico v. Puerto Rico at 3 p.m. EST makes a perfect bridge in my sports day, between Michigan-Indiana basketball at 1:00 and that weirdo game where we actually… Read more »

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John, last night Naranjeros defeated Cuba in their return to la Serie del Caribe, on a 9 to 4 victory. A few known names appeared for Mexico´s team, for instance, starting pitcher Alfredo Aceves threw 7 solid innings allowing 3 runs on 5 hits. His battery-mate was non other than his brother Jonathan, a Mexican League veteran. Chris Roberson (cup of coffe with the Phillies) got 4 hits, including a 3-run homerun. Gil Velazquez played shortstop, Oliver Perez did not played but he is one the bullpen arms, as well as longtime reliever Dennis Reyes. And former Major Leaguer Daryle… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Wow, Gil Velazquez has almost 1,500 games in the U.S. minors — and just 33 games in MLB. I wish him luck! He did get into a game with the Marlins last year, but is now a free agent. I hear the Mets need a SS….

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

He has played the last two winters with Mexicali, and I think he´s got a Major League glove, but his hitting, well, let say he´s a good fit for the Mets.

(Sorry, John, I couldn´t resist it!)

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

It would be fun if this were actually a Clemente vs Kaline vs Gibson vote.
With all of the strategic agendas, and the fact that we have 4 elections before anyone better comes along, well, it is not so simple.

I would be fascinated to see an unofficial side vote, where everyone chooses ONE and only one player from this ballot.

Personally, I pick Clemente.
I’m learning more about him right now.
Seems like he was a special human being.

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

One thing I’ve realized while thinking about this ballot, is that voting in the classic “straight” sense of just picking your personal top 3 of who’s on the ballot really does nothing to distinguish anybody at the top, since we have three that are clearly above the rest in the collective opinion. If everybody agreed to vote perfectly straight, and there isn’t someone who disagrees and thinks say Koufax or Grich or Whitaker or whoever is actually a bit better than one of the triumvirate — then they all tie. It seems to me that it makes more sense to… Read more »

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

I would actually argue that, at this point, the plurality of different strategies is the best method. We’ve been getting results that work, and there hasn’t really been an egregious oversight or unconscionable election. I’ve been thinking about strategies a lot lately, since it’s been a major topic of conversation lately, and I’ve got to say that I believe, so far, that the best strategy is for everyone to just continue applying their own individual strategy. It’s worked well so far.

mosc
mosc
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

I do think that the majority of folks on here will at least vote for who they think is the best player on a give ballot, say 75% of people. Half of the rest will vote for the best player but change if they think there’s a strategic gain to be had. I’d say only about an eighth of our voters purposely and unashamedly ignore the top of the ballot.

Aaron
Aaron
10 years ago

Clemente, Gibson, Edgar

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

Gibson
Clemente
Koufax

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Gibson, Grich, Marichal

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Gibson, Clemente, Koufax

Nadig
Nadig
10 years ago

Clemente, Gibson, Kaline.

Josh
Josh
10 years ago

I’d normally go Gibson, Clemente, Kaline, but Juan Marichal needs some insurance to make sure he stays on the ballot.

Bob Gibson, Al Kaline, Juan Marichal

brp
brp
10 years ago

Clemente
Grich
Lofton

Jeff Hill
Jeff Hill
10 years ago

Clemente, Gibson, Lofton

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Gibson, Clemente, Koufax. Pains me to note vote for Kaline (who has the same birthday as me!), but you gotta do what you gotta do.

opal611
opal611
10 years ago

For the 1934-Part Two election, I’m voting for:
-Ryne Sandberg
-Bob Gibson
-Roberto Clemente

Other top candidates I considered highly (and/or will consider in future rounds):
-Smoltz
-Biggio
-Martinez
-Whitaker
-Grich
-Lofton
-Santo
-McCovey
-Murray
-Kaline

Darien
10 years ago

Clemente, Kaline, and Santo

Darien
10 years ago
Reply to  Darien

Mainly I want Santo to get in so Birtelcom can title his post “Santo Claus is coming to town.”

John Autin
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Darien

I guess “Ronsanto: Better Living Through Chemistry” wouldn’t fly, since Santo hit just .248 on fake grass.

Paul E
Paul E
10 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

John:
Re “Ronsanto: Better Living Through Chemistry”, it might not be “seeds and genomics” or “agricultural productivity”, but that insulin sure helped…

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Clemente, Kaline, Grich – rare strategic vote for me after missing a round last time.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

Vote:

Roberto Clemente
Bob Gibson
Kenny Lofton

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Grich, Biggio, Koufax

TJay
10 years ago

Gibby, Roberto, Koufax .

koma
koma
10 years ago

John Smoltz, Sandy Koufax, Craig Biggio

bells
bells
10 years ago

Well, in a sense this vote seems obvious if we’re voting for a ‘top 3’, but I’ll run through it with my statistical methodology anyway. These are the rankings of the players on the ballot on 3 measures: WAR, WAA+, and JAWS. A ranking of 3 means that, cumulatively, the player is ranked #1 on the ballot on each of these measures. A ranking of 51 means the player is 17th on all 3 measures. The rankings (with rankings of each of the 3 measures, respectively, in parentheses): Clemente 4 (1 1 2) Kaline 7 (2 2 3) Gibson 7… Read more »

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Gibson, Koufax.