Circle of Greats: 1937 Part 1 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the 40th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats (COG).  This round begins to add those players born in 1937.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1937 will be brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds, split in half based on last names — the top half of the top half by alphabetical order this round and the bottom half next round.  This round’s new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full set of players eligible to receive your votes this round.

As usual, the new group of 1937-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EST Saturday, December 28, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST Thursday, December 26.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1937 Round 1 Vote Tally.  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1937 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 15 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1937 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 24 players born in 1937 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  Twelve of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Clete Boyer to Jim Pagliaroni).  The 12 players further down in the alphabet will be added next round.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 7 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Gaylord Perry  (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Willie McCovey (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Mariano Rivera (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Dave Winfield (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1937, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Orlando Cepeda
Clete Boyer
Jim Hickman
Gary Geiger
Tom Haller
Jim Pagliaroni
Don Buford
Pitchers (born in 1937, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jim Brewer
Juan Marichal
Mike Cuellar
Joe Horlen
Jim O’Toole

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Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
10 years ago

Whitaker
Smoltz
McCovey

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

birtlecom, M. Rivera is not listed in the holdovers.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

As a Sicilian I’m allowed to pose racially ambiguous questions like this one:

Did Boyer’s mama know that Cletis Leroy is not a white boy name?
(Perhaps when you are one of 14 children things get a little creative).

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The Grissom children:

Marvin, Richard, Joe, Henry, Phillip, Michael, Antonio, Barbara, Elizabeth, Shirley, Dorothy, Delores, Mary, Ernestine, Marquis

Eventually, you have to get creative.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

The hidden value of a great defense:

Mike Cuellar
____________

1966 , with Houston

12 – 10

-0.42 RA9DEF

5.6 WAR

____________

1970, with Baltimore

24 – 8

0.36 RA9DEF

2.8 WAR

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

It looks like Joe Coleman’s ratio for 1973 is 0.999; 32 HR in 288.1 IP.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

When I ran the PI for single seasons I sorted by wins and set HR greater than 0.111*IP. Coleman’s name was not on the list but the other 5 guys were. I then checked Coleman’s BR home page. If you make the PI run setting HR greater than 0.11*IP Coleman’s name does appear on the list.

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
10 years ago

Murray, Winfield, Rivera

Scary Tuna
Scary Tuna
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Thanks. Glad I could complete the season schedule. ;o)

Darien
10 years ago

Rivera, Lofton, Biggio

Josh
Josh
10 years ago

Rivera, Winfield, Marichal

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

If Bobby Richardson is positioned three feet in either direction…

David Horwich
David Horwich
10 years ago

Alomar, Sandberg, Santo

aweb
aweb
10 years ago

Perry, Grich, Santo

MJ
MJ
10 years ago

Gaylord Perry, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich

koma
koma
10 years ago

Craig Biggio, Mariano Rivera, Juan Marichal

KalineCountry
KalineCountry
10 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich
Willie McCovey

Chris C
Chris C
10 years ago

Biggio, Sandberg, Edgar

JEV
JEV
10 years ago

Rivera, Perry, Marichal

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago

Yay! Another COG round!

The first two choices are easy. But the third… well, that’s tougher. I adjust WAR for peak performance when I rate these guys. And in that adjustment, I have three guys within .8 adjusted WAR of one another. But I’m going with the one I’ve been going with, even though Juan Marichal and Ryne Sandberg are right there.

Gaylord Perry
Ron Santo
Bobby Grich

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Perry, Grich, Marichal

--bill
--bill
10 years ago

Also, the Jim O’Toole link seems to be broken.

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago
Reply to  --bill

The automatic linker often has trouble with that kind of name.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Perry 50.9
Grich 43.6
Santo 43.3
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
McCovey 38.9
Sandberg 38.8
Alomar 36.8
Biggio 36.3
Allen 35.9
Murray 34.9
Rivera 33.1
Marichal 32.7
Winfield 30.5
Cepeda 21.0

I always thought Marichal was better than that. Aside from the pioneer thing, which is certainly worth something, anyone care to argue that he was more valuable than WAR/WAA give him credit for?

Perry
Martinez
Smoltz

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

I was nowhere near alive when he played, but based on stats alone, and taking the very obvious flaws of the system into account, I completely fail to see how Marichal is 37th among pitchers on the Fan EloRater.

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

The one thing that has surprised me the most with this Circle of Greats exercise is how much I have personally “overrated” (I don’t know if that’s the right word) some of the players from the 1960s. Now, I wasn’t around in the 1960s so it’s not like I saw them play, and these guys were basically retired before I was aware of baseball and baseball history, but I have believed the second tier stars (the McCoveys and Marichals and Cepedas, etc.) were VASTLY better than the second tier players post-1970s. It’s still difficult to wrap my head around the… Read more »

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago
Reply to  Artie Z.

Rest assured, I use it for the same reason. It’s about as scientific as saying “Mike Piazza heads, Felipe Alou tails” and flipping a coin.

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

“Aside from the pioneer thing, which is certainly worth something, anyone care to argue that he was more valuable than WAR/WAA give him credit for?”

One possibility-and since I’ve got to be somewhere in a few minutes I’m having to go from memory- was something I think I recall seeing in TNBJHBA about Marichal’s record in “big” games in the heat of a pennant race. If memory serves it was in a section about Don Drysdale- but that could also mean that it came from The Politics Of Glory too- and Marichal’s record was quite stellar and Drysdale’s wasn’t.

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
10 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

I think that, yes, there IS reason to believe that Marichal was better than his raw WAA/WAR total. It comes down to distribution. Of all the players currently on the ballot, Marichal has the #2 best year (10.3 WAR; Perry had 11.0). He has the best #2 season (9.1 WAR). He has the #3 third season (7.8 WAR, behind Santo’s 8.9 and just behind Perry’s 7.9). Marichal has the best #4 season (7.7 WAR, tied with Santo), the third best #5 season (6.4, barely behind Santo’s 6.7 and Perry’s 6.5). He moves back to the middle of the pack thereafter.… Read more »

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago
Reply to  Dr. Doom

Over on ESPN right now David Schoenfield has a post about HOF pitchers and peak value: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/43072/hall-of-fame-pitchers-and-peak-value Now, it’s recent pitchers and not all of them are HOFers, and he’s really talking about Roy Halladay, who, on his chart, looks a lot like Marichal. Unlike Halladay, Marichal probably suffers a little because he has a bunch of contemporaries (Gibson, Drysdale, Koufax) and near-contemporaries (Perry, Seaver, Jenkins) who have careers that look like his (or are better), whereas Halladay doesn’t really have many pitchers who are direct contemporaries with a career that looks like his. Marichal as “Pitcher of the 1960s”… Read more »

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago

Perry, Rivera, Grich

Bix
Bix
10 years ago

Lofton, Biggio, Allen

Bix
Bix
10 years ago
Reply to  Bix

Wait. Allen, not Biggio.

Bix
Bix
10 years ago
Reply to  Bix

Sigh. I need more coffee.

Lofton, Allen, Santo. Finally.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago
Reply to  Bix

Wait a sec, who is Finally?

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

It’s got to be Chuck or Steve.

Charles O would belong in the executive wing…

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago
Reply to  Luis Gomez

Or maybe he was a teammate of Naturally 🙂

Mike L
Mike L
10 years ago

Rivera, Sandberg, Smoltz.

brp
brp
10 years ago

Grich
Lofton
Santo

Kirk
Kirk
10 years ago

Alomar, Perry, Allen

John Z
John Z
10 years ago

Ahh another COG round, Round 37′ part 1, Merry Christmas to me, I know it is the thought that counts. Anyway onward and ummm onward. The first two here are fairly simple, Teammates, HOFers and no I do not mean Perry and McCovey. Juan Marishal and Orlando Cepeda, it is with out question or debate these two HOF’ers are worthy of the COG. The third I had to use some imagination. Last round I was unable to convince anyone else to select David Travis Fryman, lets see if I can change that this round. This veteran holds a distinctive record… Read more »

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
10 years ago
Reply to  John Z
John Z
John Z
10 years ago
Reply to  Mike HBC

HO HO HO, as Father Mulcahy might have said, Jocularity Jocularity. Here is another point of fact, Mr. Buford averaged 3.6 Bwar over 10 seasons, another veteran, someone you might have heard of before has averaged 3.6 Bwar over the last 3 seasons. None other then Juan LeBron AKA Carlos Beltran.

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
10 years ago

Alomar, Whitaker, Marichal.

Abbott
Abbott
10 years ago

Biggio, Marichal, McCovey

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
10 years ago

Orlando Cepeda had the last Grand Slam at Busch Stadium I/Sportsmans Park III in St Louis as a member of the Giants. He also had the first IPHR in Busch Stadium II/Busch Memorial Stadium as a member of the Cardinals. He played in 3 World Series in the 1960s (and one NLCS); the only time his team won he hit .103/.103/.172.

Mariano Rivera pitched in the postseason after 16 different seasons.

Biggio with all those doubles from a righthanded hitter and the career HBP total.

CBiggio, OCepeda, MaRivera

Doug
Doug
10 years ago

Marichal, Rivera, McCovey

Hartvig
Hartvig
10 years ago

Not a huge Gaylord Perry fan but the only way he’s not the best player on the ballot is if I penalize him more than I do say Palmeiro or McGwire for cheating.

As much as it pains me not to be able to vote or McCovey or Marichal or about half a dozen other players on the ballot instead:

Santo, Sandberg, Perry

I changed my ballot at the last minute in the last round to no effect. I won’t rule out doing that again this round, hopefully with a better result.

jajacob
jajacob
10 years ago

Lou whitaker, gaylord perry, mariano riveria

fireworks
fireworks
10 years ago

Marichal. Grich. Gar.

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
10 years ago

Marichal, Santo, Alomar

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
10 years ago

Perry, Whitaker, Santo

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
10 years ago

Biggio, Rivera, Marichal.

wx
wx
10 years ago

Gaylord Perry, Mariano Rivera, Juan Marichal. Don’t think I’ve ever done 3 pitchers before

J.R.
J.R.
10 years ago

Grich, Biggio, Rivera

bcholm
bcholm
10 years ago

Santo, Marichal, Mo Rivera

RonG
RonG
10 years ago

Perry, Grich, Marichal

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
10 years ago

Perry, Santo, and Murray.

I have a feeling I won’t be voting for Murray much longer.

Andy
Andy
10 years ago

McCovey
Allen
Marichal

DaveR
DaveR
10 years ago

Winfield, Perry, Marichal

Aaron Blower
Aaron Blower
10 years ago

Perry, Edgar, Murray

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
10 years ago

Gaylord Perry
Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich

T-Bone
T-Bone
10 years ago

Dick Allen
Sandberg
Santo

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago

Initial vote based solely on merit: 1. Ron Santo (7.0 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1963-72) 2. Juan Marichal (7.1 WAR/162 during 7-yr peak of 1963-69) 3. Gaylord Perry (5.9 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1964-76) Ranking of other candidates: 4. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 5. Willie McCovey (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1963-70) — Manual override (originally ranked #9) 6. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 7. Dick Allen (6.6 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1964-72) 8. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 9. Craig Biggio (5.8… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago

INH,
Would you explain your rankings?

Is there more to it than peak value?

Why would Lofton be 4 and McCovey 9 if their peaks were identical?

Why is 6.7 for eight years better than 6.6 for twelve?

And, finally, why does Rivera’s 4.0 for 16 years not even warrant a listing?

That last question leads to another, semantic yet essential:
How do you define “merit”?

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Merit being the peak stats provided… their rankings when it’s unclear who should be ahead of whom are actually quite complicated, involving somewhat arbitrary comparisons of the two peaks. 6.7 for 8 years is not necessarily better than 6.6 for 12 years, but it was in these specific cases.

Jeff B
Jeff B
10 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

It’s not a good formula, it eliminates anyone with a off or injured season like Smoltz in 2000 and for some one ignores a large part of a player’s career.

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
10 years ago
Reply to  Jeff B

Hey Jeff, guess what? You don’t have to accept my way of doing things! I know it’s a flawed methodology, but unless you can show me a perfectly good one, then this is what I’m using to determine my votes. Occasionally I ignore my own methods as I do by ranking McCovey higher than my methodology says he deserves. Is it still flawed with this little adjustment? Yes! Do I still plan to use it? Yes! Do you have to just deal with that? Also yes!

Jeff B
Jeff B
10 years ago

According to your information, Lofton and McCovey look equal, why would one be 4th and the other 9th before your override?

donburgh
donburgh
10 years ago

Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez, Gaylord Perry

mo
mo
10 years ago

Whitaker, Smoltz, Marichal

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
10 years ago
Reply to  mo

See, this right here shows you what an amazing player/human Rivera is.
He comes to this blog and doesn’t even vote for himself.
Even pretends to be an accountant from Baltimore.
You’re awesome, Mo.

robbs
robbs
10 years ago

Whitaker Smoltz Santo

Low T
Low T
10 years ago

Marichal, Santo, Grich please.