Managers and the Hall of Fame

The “Expansion Era Committee” of the Hall of Fame will consider twelve candidates for induction this year. Those candidates who appear on 75% of the ballots of the sixteen committee members will be inducted into the Hall in July, 2014.  The results of the committee’s voting will be announced on December 9.

Four of the twelve candidates being considered were long-time managers: Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Tony La Russa and Billy Martin.   Evaluating managerial performance is not easy — it is very difficult to separate the contributions a baseball manager makes to winning from those of his players.  But what we can do is evaluate what kinds of records have led previous managers to be inducted into the Hall.  I’ve found that the following formula is very good as a description of which managers have made it into the Hall:

–First, take the number of games over .500  a manager’s teams have been during the regular season overall for his career.
–Then add to that a number equal to 100 times the number of AL and NL pennants the manager’s teams won.
–Then add a bonus of  85 times the number of World Series won.

Let’s call the result HOF Manager Index Points (“MIPs”).  After the jump is a table of the top MIP totals in major league history.  Checking the table you’ll see that of the of the top 27 MIP totals (540 MIP points or more), 26 managers are either in the Hall of Fame (elected either as managers, executives or players) or are on the current Expansion Era Committee ballot.  The only manager with more than  540 MIPs who is not in the Hall, or on the current ballot, is Ralph Houk, who is down at 25th on the list with 558 MIPs.

Only two managers with MIP totals below 540 have ever been inducted into the Hall as managers: Bucky Harris, who you’ll see at 40th on the MIP list in the table with 409 MIPs, and Wilbert Robinson, who sits down at 75th on the MIP (too low for the table below) — now tied, actually, at 201 MIPs with John Farrell.

If we take 540 MIPs as the normal cutoff point for managers to make it into the Hall, three of the current nominees look like shoo-ins, either this year or in the future: Torre, La Russa and Cox all have over 1,000 MIPs and sit in the top 10 in the MIP list all-time.  Billy Martin falls just short at 525 MIPs.

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Phil
11 years ago

Add a “Yes” to Billy Martin’s third column…I don’t see Joe Schultz anywhere.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

I’ve got to admit that I had absolutely no idea who Jim Mutrie was

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

He named the Giants.

John Z
John Z
11 years ago

Dont see Lou Piniella on this list just curious how he finished on this list?

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago

One thing that all the HOF managers seem to have is staying power. Connie Mack, of course owned his team, but the others managed, so to speak, to endure for long stretches with one franchise or another without hiring themselves to do the job. The closest of them to Billy Martin in terms of peripatetic wanderings and broken engagements of service is Dick Williams, but still he spent five consecutive years with one franchise and four with another. What I’m trying to say is that Martin not only is the least of the four nominees by a huge measure using… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago

Wins for teams Martin managed,
year before, and Billy’s first year

Twins
79
97

Tigers
79
91

Rangers
57 !
84

Yankees
83
97

Athletics
54 !
83

Yankees
79
91

Yankees
87
97

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

I remember in one of his abstracts, Bill James noted that most of the improvement in Martin’s teams was defensive. James suggested that Martin (or perhaps his long-time pitching coach Art Fowler) was particularly adept at convincing young pitchers to throw strikes.

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The “new manager lifts an underperforming team” phenomenon is hardly unknown. Martin’s inability to stay put just gave him more chances to display it.

Jim Frey:

Royals
85
97

Cubs
71
96

Hank Bauer

Orioles
86
97

Gene Mauch(!)

Twins
76
85

Angels
81
92

Dusty Baker

Giants
72
103

Cubs
67
88

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I went to a game where Billy penciled in Rick Rhoden as the DH.

And Rhoden got the GWRBI
(that was a real stat!)

genius.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

…and two days later the Yanx were 39-21.

A terrible road trip followed, losing 7 out of 8.
Billy was fired for the final time, with a 40-28 record.

Phil
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Maybe this is mentioned somewhere in the comments, but James also wrote about some teams that thrive when a high-intensity manager is replaced by an easy-going guy; think his classic examples were Martin giving way to Bob Lemon, and Weaver being replaced by Joe Altobelli. Doesn’t always work out—I thought the Jays were all set in 2001 when Fregosi was replaced by Buck Martinez. They went a very easy-going 80-82.

e pluribus munu
e pluribus munu
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

To expand a little on what James said, beyond the point Phil made, James generalized that managers are generally dismissed when teams are not doing well, and their replacements are generally hired because their strengths seem like ones that will remedy the immediate problem – if they’re good, they solve that problem, and then, over time, the problems typical for managers with their strengths and weaknesses emerge. He identified few exceptions (Stengel, McCarthy, Cox — writing in 1997).

donburgh
donburgh
11 years ago

Is it a stretch to say that if Murtaugh hadn’t kept retiring (for health reasons), he’d be in the Hall of Fame?

Ed
Ed
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Murtaugh’s also one of the most recent players to have a season of 1 or fewer home runs and 70+ RBIs. Since he did it in 1948, only Dick Groat (1964) and Ozzie Smith (1987) have accomplished the feat. It used to be quite common.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago

I’m curious, Birtelcom, as to how you came to 100 points for a pennant and 85 more for a championship.

Interesting, too, that John Farrell only has 201 career MIP, since he earned 217 this year. I suppose more managers probably have negative MIP than positive, even though an average MIP is, by definition, positive.

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  Bryan O'Connor

Does seem rather back calculated to give a clean cutoff. Not that there’s anything wrong with that! You want to give a concrete comparison for future candidates and clarify the existing criteria which is exactly what back calculating will get you.

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

This sounds very similar to Bill James’ Hall Monitor score: back-engineered not to reward performance per se but instead reward performance that resonates with Hall voters.

Well done.

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
11 years ago

In a managerial career that for health reasons lasted less than 1000 games, Dick Howser accumulated 267 MIPs, which gives him a greater MIP/G than most HOF managers. (Admittedly, I haven’t done the calculation for everyone on the list; maybe someone else would care to.)

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
11 years ago

There have been 147 guys who managed 900+ games. Here are the top 20 rated by MIP/G. I don’t know this will align after I post it. Joe McCarthy HOF, 0.656 Jim Mutrie , 0.636 Charlie Comiskey HOF, 0.556 Frank Chance HOF, 0.535 Billy Southworth HOF, 0.514 Miller Huggins HOF, 0.441 Casey Stengel HOF, 0.440 Harry Wright HOF, 0.438 John McGraw HOF, 0.434 Frank Selee HOF, 0.423 Walter Alston HOF, 0.401 Cap Anson HOF, 0.371 Bill Terry HOF, 0.366 Bill Carrigan, 0.358 Earl Weaver HOF , 0.356 Pat Moran, 0.333 Fred Clarke HOF, 0.320 Joe Girardi, 0.295 Joe Torre, 0.293… Read more »

Brendan Bingham
Brendan Bingham
11 years ago

Richard: Thank you for assembling this list. Clearly, I was little careless to use the word “most” in my comment above. Should have said that Howser has a better MIP/G than **some** HOF managers.

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago

Great idea, birtelcom! Off the cuff, it seems like giving bonus points only for pennants and WS won gives a slight edge to pre-divisional skippers. Out of curiosity, I experimented with another bonus level: 50 points for making the playoffs, applied also to pennant-winners. Here are the resulting top 30 by this half-baked measure I’ll call “M2.” Shown here are birtelcom’s MIP, then M2, then rankings by MIP and by M2. MIPs … M2 .. Rk-MIP . Rk-M2 … Mgr 2287 … 2737 … 1 … 1 … Joe McCarthy HOF 2070 … 2570 … 2 … 2 … John… Read more »

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Hmmmm, Bobby Cox jumps from 10th to 6th….me likey!

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

birtelcom, I messed up my initial data selection by including only those managers with at least one pennant (as I recall). This time I selected everyone who’s managed at least 300 games. Here are the real top 30 by M2, same methods as before, and I’ve added “Chg” for the difference in their rankings by MIP and M2: MIP …. M2 … Rk:MIP . Rk:M2 … Chg …. Mgr 2287 … 2737 …. 1 …. 1 …… 0 ….. Joe McCarthy HOF 2070 … 2570 …. 2 …. 2 …… 0 ….. John McGraw HOF 1658 … 2158 …. 3… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

On the matter of “fairness,” you’re right, of course, that it’s not relevant to a HOF prediction method. But I think playoff appearances *are* relevant to prediction, because the standards applied by the HOF voters are bound to evolve as more and more managers from the playoff era come up for evaluation. So far, I don’t think there are HOF-eligible managers who grade out much differently under MIP or M2. Bobby Cox, even with no credit for his umpteen playoff appearances, is still likely destined for the Hall, due to his overall W-L record and 5 pennants. But when Jim… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

FWIW, I think Davey Johnson should be in the Hall, and that he probably will be inducted eventually by some vets’ committee. Compare him to Whitey Herzog: — Both have 1 WS title — Both have 6 playoff appearances — Herzog has 2 more pennants than Davey (3 to 1); BUT — Davey has a much better W%, .562-.532; AND — Davey has 91 more wins (1,372 to 1,281). Five of the six playoff appearances by Johnson were division titles; he also had his Reds in 1st place in ’94 when the season was canceled. Out of 59 managers with… Read more »

bells
bells
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I’m puzzled as to how Mack would gain spots on Huggins and Anderson, given that Huggins and Mack managed in the same (post-WS, pre-divisional) era and Anderson would only benefit from being in the divisional era, not suffer. Unless you might be counting points for Mack getting into a ‘playoff’ (ie. tiebreaker after full-season to determine pennant winner) scenario?

bells
bells
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

yipes, I completely brain cramped and somehow thought M2 only differed in awarding ‘extra’ points for ‘postseason’ points and not pennants as well. Maybe I’m not the best adapter to new stats…

no statistician but
no statistician but
11 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

The drop of Al Lopez from 19 to 28 verifies my own sense of fitness, but I have a bias. Anyone following baseball in the late 1950s and early 1960s probably remembers what a genius of baseball strategy Lopez was supposed to be according to the media of that time, especially anyone who subscribed to one of the Chicago newspapers, but it was not just those four outlets who touted Lopez’s expertise. Lopez’s teams, for the record, finished second 10 times in 15 years, first twice, and third, fourth, and fifth once each. It is a remarkable record, but how… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

@36, Al Lopez’s record of 1918 games caught was a pretty big deal when I first started following MLB in the very late 60s. Hard to believe he’s only 9th now. But – only two of the top 10 are in the HOF (Carter, Fisk – the all time leader I-Rod is a good candidate). So, maybe this in not as good an indication of greatness, as being in the top ten in other catagories. There’s some correlation with the greatest catchers, but it’s rather weak – I mean, if Brad Ausmas is in a Top-10 list, it’s not exactly… Read more »

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
11 years ago

From 1950 to 1960 inclusive, the Yankees won 9 AL pennants. Al Lopez won the other two.

mosc
mosc
11 years ago

I don’t think anybody disputes that Torre, LaRussa, and Cox all have plenty of credentials to not only make the HOF but to be discussed as some of the greatest managers of any era.