Circle of Greats: 1939 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 37th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1939. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round. The new group of 1939-born players must, as always, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers). There are very few modern players who have accumulated 20 or more WAR in a career that lasted fewer than ten major league seasons, but we do have one on the ballot this round, the Dodger first baseman Wes Parker, who was best known for his skill as a fielder.

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EST on Friday, November 29, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EST Wednesday, November 27.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1939 Round Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1939 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1939 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 9 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Ron Santo (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Willie Stargell (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Luis Tiant (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1939, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Carl Yastrzemski
Lou Brock
Tommy Davis
Johnny Callison
Dick McAuliffe
Cookie Rojas
Rico Carty
Dal Maxvill
Gates Brown
Bernie Allen
Ty Cline
Lou Klimchock
Jim Northrup
Zoilo Versalles
Joe Azcue
Mike Hershberger
Hawk Taylor
Jim Beauchamp
Julio Gotay
Jimmy Stewart
Wes Parker

Pitchers (born in 1939, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Phil Niekro
Claude Osteen
Bob Miller
Milt Pappas
Dave Giusti
Bobby Bolin
Pete Richert
Jack Fisher
Denny Lemaster
Jim Bouton
Phil Ortega

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Chris C

10 years ago

Yaz
Niekro
Biggio

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Well, I have to leave one of my bubble boys off this time. Hopefully they’ll come back in a redemption after this 1930s decade is over.

Yaz, Niekro, and Murray

Jeff Harris

10 years ago

Yaz, Whitaker, Smoltz

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

10 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons: Yastrzemski 55.3 Niekro 54.7 Grich 43.6 Santo 43.3 Whitaker 42.7 Martinez 41.3 Smoltz 40.1 Lofton 39.3 Sandberg 38.8 Tiant 37.5 Alomar 36.8 Biggio 36.3 Allen 35.9 Murray 34.9 Stargell 29.6 Brock 17.3 I remember Phil Niekro for two things: baseball cards that used a different font on the back to fit 20+ seasons, and that he had a brother who also threw a knuckleball. His mid-’80s ERAs were unimpressive. Those older than I know Niekro as the guy who pitched 207 innings with a 1.87 ERA in 1967 or the guy who led… Read more »

aweb

10 years ago

Niekro and Yastrzemski from the new guys, Grich from the old list.

I forget Yaz had three of the best WAR seasons ever (9.5, 10.4, 12.4), since his 1967 gets most of the press. 1800 Runs scored, despite only breaking 100 twice (and playing in an era where his 93 lead the league in 1974, the lowest non-strike, live-ball leading total ever). Both Yaz and Niekro accumulated more playing time than just about anybody, both should comfortably win a vote here eventually.

Dr. Remulak

10 years ago

Biggio, Smoltz, Yaz.

Mike HBC

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Santo

Mike

10 years ago

Stargell, Niekro, Yastrzemski

10 years ago

Yastrzemski, Niekro and… Martinez.

It’s lucky we have more to go on here than merely ERA. Career ERAs of some of these guys:

Luis Tiant: 3.30
Claude Osteen: 3.30
John Smoltz: 3.33
Phil Niekro: 3.35
Bob Miller. 3.37
Milt Pappas: 3.40
Bobby Bolin: 3.40

Is Phil Ortega (141 GS, 75 ERA+, 1.5 WAR) the worst player to make it onto the ballot thus far?

Artie Z.

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

Last round Tom Satriano was on the ballot – I don’t know if 80 OPS+ with 7 of 15 on SB attempts and 49 GDP in 1864 PAs with -12 Rfield for his career is worse than Ortega. But bbref has Satriano’s career WAR as -0.5.

His “Rnumbers” break down as:

-50 Rbat
-8 Rbaser
-3 Rdp
-12 Rfield
18 Rpos (he looks to be a third baseman/infielder type who turned into a catcher)

10 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Good stuff Artie. Both of these guys had one decent season to save their careers from being complete train wrecks.

What struck me about Ortega was the similarity of his career path to Philip Humber. Several seasons of extremely limited use and some nasty ERAs, followed by a couple of seasons of not being completely useless, then one decent year, before quickly falling off the face of the earth. Compare their b-ref pages side-by-side and you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

The infielder Lou Klimchock is on the ballot this round — his career b-ref WAR was -3.0. His brief time with my Mets made an impression: 5 total plate appearances, 3 Ks (one a game-ender with the bases loaded), a pop out to short and a GIDP with the bases loaded.

Lou’s grandson, Mitch Nay, is a pretty good young (just turned 20) prospect in the Jays system.

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Utilityman Jimmy Stewart, also on this year’s list, played in 777 games, and finished with a .237/.306/.305 line and -1.1 career brWAR

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

But still he got a career in the majors — it’s a wonderful life.

e pluribus munu

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

nice, birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

And Hawk Taylor has a -2.1 career WAR. And Jim Beauchamp, -1.5.

Obviously two great candidates with Yaz and Niekro but some really bad ones as well on this ballot.

koma

10 years ago

Craig Biggio, Carl Yastrzemski, Phil Niekro

JEV

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Biggio.

Nick Pain

10 years ago

Niekro, Yaz, Whitaker.

JasonZ

10 years ago

Alas, Ron Santo ;-(

brp

10 years ago

Yaz
Niekro
Grich

Dr. Doom

10 years ago

I think this is the easiest ballot I’ve had to fill out as a COG voter who’s participated in every round, including run-offs and redemptions. It’s not that there aren’t a lot of worthy members; it’s that the top three are, in my opinion, so OVER-qualified for this election that picking them is easy.

Carl Yastrzemski
Phil Niekro
Ron Santo

Phil

10 years ago

Yaz, Alomar, and Bouton (in the media wing, I guess). Yes, I’m half-kidding about Bulldog. Also half-serious, plus it’s the only chance I’ll get to vote for him. If you believe in the a-blade-of-grass-moves-in-India (and that leads to an earthquake halfway across the world) theory of interconnectedness, I do believe that Ball Four had a profound effect upon the game. Not as profound as Marvin Miller or Curt Flood—I’d of course vote for them before Bouton—but I think of them as all interconnected. It was a moment in time when players started to be perceived differently by fans. Ball Four… Read more »

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to Phil

Bouton was one of the plaintiffs in the Google Books case that just got thrown out (summary judgement for the defense).

bells

10 years ago

Yeah, it’s the 30s. No more messing around, no sentiment, some of my faves are gonna get steamrolled this decade. There are plenty of redemption opportunities coming up. Just gotta vote for the 3 best and move on.

Yaz, Niekro, Santo.

KalineCountry

10 years ago

Yaz who Eddie Stanky said was an all-star from the neck down.
Lou Whitaker
Bobby Grich

Special mention to three great Detroit Tigers,
Dick McAuliffe,
the late Jim Northrup,
and recently departed Pinch Hitter Deluxe Gates Brown.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Reply to KalineCountry

I’ve long felt that McAuliffe has been generally under-appreciated. I’m sure part of it had to do with having the peak of his career happening during an offensive brown out as well as the what was he factor- he even had a full season worth of games at third in addition to splitting time between 2nd & short. I think James ranked him somewhere in the mid-20’s at second. WAR is less kind plus a few guys have moved ahead of him since James did his rankings so the HOS has him at 39 & JAWS at 44 (JAWS includes… Read more »

e pluribus munu

10 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

James ranked McAuliffe 22nd, and focused on what I always felt about McAuliffe: he was the most awkward player I ever saw in every aspect of the game, but he was solid.

The bleachers in Tiger Stadium loved Northrup. I remember them (us) bringing the game to a standstill one day to make him turn around between pitches and acknowledge them. He bowed.

Brendan Bingham

10 years ago

Reply to KalineCountry

As for Northrup and Brown, while neither had a great career, both were indispensable to the ’68 Tigers. In a post-season noted for its great pitching, Northrup was the hitting star of the World Series.

Bix

10 years ago

Yaz, Allen, Santo

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Phil @18, well said.

Yaz (take a hike, son)
Knucksie
Bouton

10 years ago

Yazstremski, Whitaker, Niekro

Abbott

10 years ago

Yaz, Biggio, Santo

David Horwich

10 years ago

Alomar, Sandberg, Yaz

Josh

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Smoltz

mosc

10 years ago

I don’t hate Lou Brock. Am I the only one?

Yaz, Niekro, Biggio

mosc

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

Seriously though, Brock vs Yaz in left field purely on defensive skills. RFIELD says -51 vs 183. I see them as pretty much a wash. That’s just staggering to me that they’re so different.

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

@30/mosc, It’s not staggering _at all_ to me. Brock was not a good outfielder, despite his obvious speed. He had average range (at best), a mediocre arm, poor instincts, and made lots of errors. He wasn’t Luzinski bad, but was below-average. OTOH, Yaz had a great accurate arm and played The Wall better than anyone else, gunning down many an unsuspecting baserunner trying to stretch a double into a double. Granted, Gold Gloves are often not the best way to evaluate fielding, but I think that his 7 Gold Gloves are an accurate indication of Yaz’s excellence. 183 -(-51) =… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

As usual in these discussions, I take a look at raw range numbers as a sort of crude reality check. Yaz converted one more out than Brock every 5 to 6 9-inning games on average. That’s not necessarily a difference you pick up with your eyes, but over a season that’s 30 hits converted into outs, and over a career as long as Brock’s or Yaz’s, that’s a lot of value. There are many reasons why the range factors could be different other than pure fielding skill. But the difference in raw range numbers might be useful just to give… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Brock actually rates as a good defensive outfielder between ages 24-29 (+33 Rfield).

But he was bad after that. I’m not sure why though. He didn’t change positions. He didn’t change teams. He obviously didn’t lose his speed.

So what was it???

no statistician but

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Ed:

Curt Flood departed around that time from CF. Either a) synergy is very difficult to account for mathematically; b) Flood, despite the presumed accuracy of RFIELD, made Brock look better than he was; c) a combination of a and b.

Or something else entirely, like a change in the pitching staff.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Outfield defense and base stealing both require baseball instincts and savvy as well as raw speed. Pretty much everybody loses a little raw speed as they move from their twenties to their thirties, but maturing baseball instincts can make up for it, at least for a while. It is possible that Brock accumulated that extra savvy on the basepaths but never quite got it in the outfield. Reacting to a ball off a bat and reacting to a pitcher’s motion on the mound are very different skills and it is certainly possible to improve in one but not the other.

brp

10 years ago

Reply to mosc

I don’t hate Lou Brock, but I also don’t see him as being any better than Vince Coleman and I am certainly not putting him in the COG.

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Reply to brp

I presume that is an exaggeration to make a point.

Brock is 109 career OPS+, Coleman is 83. That is a HUGE difference. In WAR, the score is 45 to 12. No contest.

Brock, incidentally, is one of only 27 players since 1901 with 105 OPS+ and 1.5 WAR every season from age 25 to 37. Interestingly, 21 of those 27 played all or most of their careers since 1961, with Cobb, Collins, Speaker, Wheat, Ruth and Musial the only old-timers.

brp

10 years ago

Reply to Doug

It’s an exaggeration for impact, yes… but the point is Brock was what, a 2-tool player? Hit for average and speed. Not great defense and minimal power.

Him being in the HOF isn’t a travesty or anything but he’s certainly worse than a guy like Raines who had more to offer offensively, and just isn’t worth being in the COG.

Probably should have worded that better…

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to brp

@33/brp,

I’m no huge fan of Brock (as #34 indicates), but he was A LOT better than Vince Coleman. Ignoring their SB-related value, Brock was better at getting on base, and had _a lot_ more power. Compare their neutralized slash lines:

BROCK: .302/.353/.423
COLEMAN: .266/.325/.347

This is as wrong as saying that Tim Raines is similar to Coleman, he just had a much longer career (which I read in a HOF column about Raines).

David Horwich

10 years ago

13 holdovers, 6 of them on the bubble…it’ll be interesting to see how much attrition there is among them over the next few elections, especially with a pair of redemption round winners joining the list next year, which will crowd things even more. By the way, the theoretical maximum number of holdovers is 30 – although for that to come about the number of voters has to be a multiple of 10, and the votes would need to be divided up so that each player receives exactly 10% of the vote, no more no less. Of course that’ll never happen;… Read more »

ATarwerdi96

10 years ago

Carl Yastrzemski, Bobby Grich, Edgar Martinez

Editor

Doug

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Dick Allen

Voomo Zanzibar

10 years ago

Gates Brown racked up 2.0 WAR in 104 PA in 1968

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Yeah, a .370/.442/.685 line any year is pretty awesome; much more so in The Year of The Pitcher.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Wow!: 234 OPS+ for Gates in ’68. The AL has seen 18 seasons with OPS+ of 215 or more and a minimum of 75 PAs. 8 seasons by Ruth, 5 by Ted Williams and one each by Mantle, Gehrig, McGwire, Shoeless Joe, and Gates Brown.

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

@40/LA,

Speaking of awesome, someone should bring up the the “hot dog with mustard, stuffed inside Gates’ jersey” story.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Well-written piece about Gates, including the famous hot dog story, more than half way down in the article, under the heading “Doggin’ around”:
http://www.highheatstats.com/2013/11/circle-of-greats-1939-balloting/#comment-69727

Gary Bateman

10 years ago

Yastrzemski, Santo, Alomar

RonG

10 years ago

Brock, Yastrzemski, Niekro

Nadig

10 years ago

Yastrzemski, Niekro, Martinez.

oneblankspace

10 years ago

I think I’ll be the first voter not to include Yaz Boston, and not because I can’t spell him. Yaz hit .3006 to lead the AL in 1968 and his announced retirement after the 1983 season went along with Johnny Bench. I see 36 boxes of black ink on his b-r page, not counting the two for GIDP. His election seems pretty safe and I will approve. My votes this round: Biggio (C-2b-OF-doubles-hbp specialist; 19 good black ink + PB, 1991) L.Brock (started 1964 with the Cubs, finished 1964 with a World Series Title) E.Murray (362 HR batting left-handed, which… Read more »

Insert Name Here

10 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Indeed, Craig Biggio had two sons and gave both of his sons his initials. Connor (b. 1993) and Cavan Biggio were both coached by their father in high school and are now both playing for Notre Dame (of course, both sons play 2nd base and Connor also plays OF; no word on catching ability yet).

http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2013/06/08/cavan-biggio-selected-by-phillies-in-29th-round-of-mlb-draft/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Biggio#Personal_life

jeff hill

10 years ago

Can anyone tell me why there is so much love for Neikro here and not for Nolan Ryan? Really bothered by it.

Yaz, Santo, Lofton

Chris C

10 years ago

Reply to jeff hill

Here’s my personal not-so-scientific reasons for voting for Neikro and not for Ryan. 1) Ryan has always been so incredibly overrated by regular fans it’s easy to not want to support him in this format. Neikro was historically underrated and I want him to get his due. 2) Seeing Ryan voted by the fans as the greatest pitcher in MLB history (20 years ago?) made me want to throw up. 3) Ryan was throwing something like 97 mph at age 46 and he’s never seemed to have an ounce of real suspicion thrown at him over PEDs. This happened as… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to jeff hill

I get your point, but Ryan *has* actually been elected, so no love is a stretch. I also think you can make decent arguments for electing all of Bench, Fisk, Reggie, Carew, Seaver, Carlton, Morgan and Jenkins ahead of him, as occurred. Chris C is probably right though that personal reasons over likability, overratedness played a role. It’s an interesting comparison though. A superficial analysis shows that WAR favours Niekro to the the tune of about half a WAR a year, not a huge amount. Looking at park factors it seems Niekro played almost exclusively in a hitters park, with… Read more »

brp

10 years ago

Reply to RJ

That’s just it. Niekro was consistently great but it’s hard for a knuckleballer to be “dominant” in the sense we think of a power pitcher like Ryan or Randy Johnson. Ryan was consistently fascinating and had flashes of brilliance, but was never consistently great.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to jeff hill

jeff h @50: If you go to Ryan’s page in b-ref, and if you go to the top of the Standard Pitching table, you can click on the More Stats tab. Once in the More Stats section you can scroll all the way, way down to the very last stat table, which is called Neutralized Pitching. At the bottom of the table you can see that in a neutral home park, and an average historical period, Ryan’s career ERA would project, using b-ref’s method, to 3.89. The same exercise for Niekro produces a career 3.58 ERA. That’s no trivial difference… Read more »

oneblankspace

10 years ago

Reply to jeff hill

Through his age 39 season, P.Niekro had 197 wins, which was not an impressive total in 1978. He was in a four-way tie for 61th place in the modern era (1900), and wins were considered more important in those days. He had led the league in losses more than he had in wins. He had lost his only postseason start, giving up 4 runs over 8 innings to the 1969 Mets. As I type this, Neikro has been named on 65.7% of COG ballots for this round. This matches his 65.7% total on his first HOF ballot in 1993. He… Read more »

e pluribus munu

10 years ago

Reply to jeff hill

In addition to the reasons already noted, there are people (I’m one), who felt that Ryan squandered half of his unparalleled talent by making every game a show of K’s and BB’s, and piling up far more L’s than he should have before finally being willing to become a more complete pitcher late in his career. Ryan had Walter Johnson’s talent and teams of pretty comparable quality (about the same as Neikro’s). I’m always amazed to look at his record and think about how that much ability, over that many years, produced such a mediocre outcome. Neikro’s pretty much the… Read more »

Insert Name Here

10 years ago

Initial vote based solely on merit: 1. Yaz (6.7 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1962-73) 2. Phil Niekro (5.9 WAR/162 during 13-yr peak of 1967-79) 3. Ron Santo (7.0 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1963-72) Ranking of other candidates: 4. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 5. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 6. Dick Allen (6.6 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1964-72) 7. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 8. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99) 9. Lou Whitaker (5.5 WAR/162 during 15-yr peak of 1979-93) 10.… Read more »

10 years ago

Phil Niekro, Carl Yastrzemski, Lou Whitaker

DaveR

10 years ago

Edgar, Roberto, Yaz

Hartvig

10 years ago

Yaz scored a 75.7 on JAWS, Niekro 75.6. Adams’ HOS has Niekro at 188, Yaz at 184. The HOS ranks Niekro as the 12th best pitcher ever (right between Blyleven & Martinez), JAWS as 15th & Bill James as 26th. All 3 list Yaz as the 5th best left fielder (actually JAWS has him 4th because for reasons I don’t understand they list Musial as a right fielder). In Bill James list of top 100 players Yaz is at #37 & Niekro doesn’t make the cut at all. I have been voting for the best player on the ballot plus… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Good for you Hartvig! I have to admit that I’m a bit surprised that Yaz has jumped out to a sizable lead, given that he and Niekro have basically the same career WAR (in equally long careers). On the other hand, we’re setting up for an interesting Phil Niekro vs. Gaylord Perry matchup in 1938.

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

I think I would argue that Yaz had a stronger peak than Phil, which may explain the different perceptions of them. Niekro’s top three WAR seasons were superb (27.7 pitching WAR) but Yaz’ three best seasons were transcendent (32.3 total WAR). If you then compare the fourth best seasons of the two guys, Niekro has the edge, and the same with their respective fifth best seasons, sixth best, seventh best etc. After those top three seasons, Niekro consistently has the head to head advantage. But Yaz’s head start from those top three seasons is large enough that even if you… Read more »

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Two counterpoints Birtelcom:

1) I have yet to see anyone make that argument in their voting comments.

2) More importantly, even if Niekro is #2 behind Yaz, he’s still way ahead of the third best person on the ballot.

Hartvig

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

1967 and 68 were the peak of my baseball obsession. In those days in a place like rural North Dakota you followed the game almost entirely from the box scores and standings column in the daily paper and on my green, almost brick-sized transistor radio with the occasional Saturday game-of-the-week on television thrown in for good measure (provided you didn’t have a game yourself, which was often the case).

And for the final 2 weeks of the 1967 season it was like Superman had donned a Boston Red Sox uniform.

jajacob

10 years ago

Yaz, niekero and murray

Luis Gomez

10 years ago

Whitaker, Alomar, Martinez.

--bill

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Tiant

Miller

10 years ago

Carl Yastrzemski is an easy call, and Phil Niekro is a pretty easy call too. From 1974-1979 Niekro accumulated more WAR than anyone in baseball but Mike Schmidt (they’re tied). That’s six years as the best player in the game. And from 1966-1985, Niekro was the most valuable pitcher in the game other than Seaver. For my third player, I’m going to go with the third best player on the ballot, Lou Whitaker.

Yaz
Niekro
Sweet Lou

Lawrence Azrin

10 years ago

With six on-the-bubble COG candidates, and at least one new candidate I have to vote for, I can’t save all (or over most) of my old favorites: – The man they call Yaz, Carl Yastrzemski. To answer #61, 65 above – Yaz had a much better better peak than Niekro, and his best two years (1967, 1970) blow away Niekro’s peak; the difference in WAR (2.4, 1.5) doesn’t do justice to great those two years were. – Eddie Murray (I can’t let someone who is one the Top-10 1Bman of all-time (arguably higher) fall off of our lot – Ryan… Read more »

Andy

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Allen

John Z

10 years ago

pretty simple ballot, Yaz, Niekro and Milt Pappastediodis who was traded by the Orioles for Frank Robinson, Im thinking anyone worth being traded for Frank Robinison(december 1965) in his prime and the year before Frank Robbies triple crown year is worthy of the COG…..

Low T

10 years ago

Yastrzemski, Niekro, and Sandberg since he looks like he needs some help hanging on this round.

Growing up in the 80’s, I remember looking at baseball cards of Yaz and wondering why he was considered to be so great. I had no idea how much I was missing in terms of context and defense. At that time I would have never guessed his 1968 season of .301 avg, 25 HRs, and 74 RBIs would translate to the 35th most valuable season of all time.

Darien

10 years ago

Yaz sure doesn’t need my help, so I gotta pick my old standbys: Biggio, Santo, Lofton.

e pluribus munu

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Smoltz How did it ever wind up working out so well for Niekro? As birtelcom noted, he was never seen as a superstar. I wish I could vote for Tommy Davis. In the 1960, my summer camp counselor, who had been Davis’s teacher in Brooklyn, tearfully read us a letter he’d received from Davis, thanking him for guidance that he said helped him make the Dodger team. When Davis had his monster season in ’62, I was ecstatic, and thought I’d have a personal Hall of Fame hero. Then the ankle broke and he was suddenly a journeyman… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

10 years ago

Reply to e pluribus munu

Remember Bobby Ojeda? Pretty nice career, 15 seasons in the big leagues. Niekro put up career numbers comparable to Ojeda’s — but Phil did that over a nine-season period starting after he turned 40 and had already logged 15 seasons in the majors. That’s not a formula for superstardom, because by 40 a ballplayer’s image is long since fixed in people’s minds. But it’s amazing. That knuckleball can create careers that look like no others in baseball, or any other sport that I can think of.

e pluribus munu

10 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Nice way to put it, birtelcom. (Though if Ojeda hadn’t pitched for the Mets and been in that awful accident, I might actually not remember him.) But Niekro is kind of like Don Sutton with IP coming out of his ears. He not only pitched two Ojeda careers worth, his individual seasons were doubles too (at least, three were double-qualifiers).

But I really enjoyed his career.

10 years ago

Yaz, Edgar Martinez, Phil Niekro

10 years ago

Yaz, Niekro, Smoltz