Circle of Greats: 1941 Balloting

183 Replies

This post is for voting and discussion in the 34th round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round adds to the ballot those players born in 1941. Rules and lists are after the jump.

The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round. The new group of 1941-born players must, as always, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, October 30, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Monday, October 28.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1941 Round Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1941 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 12 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1941 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.

Holdovers:
Nolan Ryan (eligibility guaranteed for 11 rounds)
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Jim Palmer (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Dick Allen (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1941, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Pete Rose
Tim McCarver
Boog Powell
Ed Brinkman
Bill Freehan
Phil Roof
Ken Berry
Tommy Helms
John Boccabella
Phil Gagliano
Dick Green
Jim Ray Hart
Ron Hunt
John Kennedy
Mike Ryan
Duke Sims
Bob Barton
Paul Casanova
Andy Kosco
Rich Reese
Larry Stahl
John Stephenson
Jeff Torborg

Pitchers (born in 1941, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Al Downing
Wilbur Wood
Darold Knowles
Clay Carroll
Paul Lindblad
Dean Chance
Ray Culp
Bruce Dal Canton
Mel Stottlemyre
Gerry Arrigo
Ken Sanders
Eddie Watt
Clyde Wright

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Nick Pain

11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, Pete Rose, Lou Whitaker

Jeff Harris

11 years ago

Whitaker, Ryan, Smoltz

11 years ago

birtelcom – You need to edit the sentences before the list of new players so that it refers to 1941 and not 1942.

My votes: Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, and Nolan Ryan.

I’m surprised how low Rose is in my rankings! He’s below Kenny Lofton!

This should be the most interesting vote we’ve had in the last month or so.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to MJ

Thanks for the catch, MJ, I’ve fixed the references.

Mike

11 years ago

Jim Palmer
Nolan Ryan
Pete Rose

Chris C

11 years ago

Rose and Ryan both probably deserve to get in but my general dislike for both will prevent me from ever voting for either one.

Same as last time:

2B Craig Biggio
2B Roberto Alomar
2B Ryne Sandberg

JEV

11 years ago

Palmer, Rose, Biggio

brp

11 years ago

Did you guys all forget about Bobby Grich already?

Grich
Lofton
Rose

Mike HBC

11 years ago

This week, I’m hopping on the Hustle Cakes Express. (Plus, if I’m eating lots of Cakes, I might be in an Express Hustle to lose those calories.)

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

I take it this means your ballot, to put things more prosaically, is for Rose, Palmer and Ryan? “that which we call a rose/by any other name….”

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

That was a very safe assumption on your part.

koma

11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, John Smoltz, Pete Rose

Abbott

11 years ago

Ryan, Biggio, Allen

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Oh birtelcom, birtelcom. This is something I look forward to every week. Yet it’s always so tough. Not that any of you really probably care, but I’ve made a change to how I rank players for this vote. The unfortunate thing about this is that, for the first time since he appeared on the ballot, I won’t be able to vote for Ryne Sandberg. He’s been in my top three each time so far, but now, alas, is not. I feel bad about this, because it’s only a limited number of us who have been supporting him throughout this time.… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

BTW (and also related to my comment above at #13), someone recently asked in a comment somewhere if it’s OK with me for folks to refer to or address me as “birt”, short for birtelcom. The answer to that is certainly yes. I’ve frequently been referred to that way on the various Web boards and forums I’ve participated in over the years and am happy to respond to that as an obvious shortcut for “birtelcom”. Both “birt” and “birtelcom” are only very tangentially related to my real world name anyway, so it’s all somewhat arbitrary.

Brendan Bingham

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

How about “birtelicious”?

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Be careful with that strategic voting, Dr. Doom. Once you get a taste of that sweet, sweet candy it’s hard to put it down…

Gary Bateman

11 years ago

Alomar, Smoltz, Palmer

brp

11 years ago

Also, I would be VERY interested in any baseball-related argument by anyone who doesn’t vote for Rose. If you’re not voting for him because of the gambling thing then that is your prerogative (ridiculous though it may be per my estimation). However if you’re not voting for him based on his production on the baseball diamond, then I really do want to know why.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

It might be worth clarifying here why Pete Rose is being treated as eligible for the COG despite not being eligible for the Hall of Fame. Personally, I approve of the ban on Rose from the Hall. As I’ve written in the past, I consider gambling on baseball by participants in the game to be a violation of the rules of the game that is beyond the pale, way worse than taking PEDs or otherwise cheating for the purpose of gaining an advantage in the game. I myself would not vote for Rose for the COG, because he committed what… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Re: Rose, I hope I can ask this sincere question without raising a firestorm … Did he ever admit to betting on baseball while he was still playing? And if not, is there other strong evidence that he did so? If there is not strong evidence that Rose bet on baseball while playing, then I would vote for him in the COG. I accept that the HOF cannot make such a distinction, for various reasons. But that is a different body, with different criteria. Absent strong evidence the Rose bet while playing, I absolutely don’t believe that he ever played… Read more »

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

But, John, presumably Rose would also be managing to win. Yet, he admits to betting on his team as a manager (Rose says he always bet om his team to win but, frankly, that’s rather hard to swallow).

Maybe I’m just overly skeptical but I don’t see a big distinction between betting on your team while playing or while managing. In both situations, you are in a position to influence game outcomes – not control or dictate those outcomes, but still influence them.

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug — The difference I see is that a manager has to balance the goal of winning *this* game against the need to preserve resources for future games. For a player in general, that concern is much smaller, and amounts to judging his own ability to play when he is less than 100% healthy, versus the risk of worsening an injury. And Rose’s durability almost completely negates that concern.

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

A distinction, yes, but struggling to understand its significance to the question of how we should regard gambling. Whether playing or managing, an interest in the game outcome due to gambling will add to the mix of considerations that the individual has to balance. My struggle is with Rose’s admission to gambling on his team only when he was a manager and not as a player (not sure about when he was a player/manager). Easy to say, but does it make sense to believe him? If he was willing to compromise the integrity of games he was involved in as… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Doug

Doug @32 — My reply @31 was, I guess, just an academic point directed at your questioning a distinction between betting *on* your team while playing or while managing. If Rose had bet while playing, I certainly would not excuse it even if he had only bet *on* his team to win. The main issue in this discussion, I think, is whether Rose’s claim to have bet only while managing is credible. I think it is credible, but I respect the opposing view. The admission to betting while managing certainly must raise suspicion that he bet while playing. But I… Read more »

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Thanks for the response, John.

Interesting thoughts. The Reds were sort of a contending team from ’85 to ’88, had similar records each year and finished 2nd each year, but they were never in a September pennant chase (in ’87, they were in the lead or close to it from the start of the season until mid-August, before a 5-15 August slide did them in). Then the Reds tanked in ’89, when the lid blew off the gambling story.

Makes you wonder, though. Decent team every year, but always manages to be out of contention come September.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

In 1985 the Reds exceeded their Pythagorean projection by 7 games.

In 1986 they were +3.

In 1987, they matched their projection.

In 1988 and ’89, +1 both years.

Which doesn’t prove anything, of course. But the Reds don’t seem to have underperformed during Rose’s tenure as manager.

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

John- I do understand the distinction that you are making and don’t really disagree with your reasoning. That said and as much distain as I hold for the players that used steroids and as detrimental as I feel they were to the game I do think it’s important to make clear that as bad as they may have been they don’t hold a candle to the damage that Rose could have potentially inflicted on the game when he got involved in gambling. But as you said since we are looking at different criteria here I also don’t know that we… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Hartvig, re: “[steroids] don’t hold a candle to the damage that Rose could have potentially inflicted on the game when he got involved in gambling.” As worded, with the emphasis on “potentially,” I agree. But as far as what actually happened, I think steroids were worse. Potentially, Rose could have thrown games, and I think most people view cheating to lose as worse than cheating to win. But Rose’s offense, even if it reached throwing games, was very unlikely to spread beyond him. The use of steroids was almost guaranteed to spread, and ultimately have a greater total impact on… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

BTW, I truly didn’t mean to get into Pete Rose arguments here. I just wanted to know if there was evidence that he bet while playing. If the discussion has any further life, maybe we should start a separate thread.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Murray, Alomar, Rose

Can’t wait to see how this one shakes out.

When’s our next split year? 1940 brings a boatload of players (Santo, Stargell, Torre, W. Davis, Tiant) who have fairly similar qualifications to our holdovers and then things start to get crowded – Yaz, Niekro, Gaylord, McCovey, Billy Williams all coming on the ballot in 1939 and 1938. And whoever is not in by 1931 may just need to wait for redemption rounds.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

1940 will be a split year — two rounds. Then I plan to do our third, once-a-decade, redemption round, simultaneously with the 1939 round.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Whoever gets redeemed … I don’t see a lot of hope for them (at least not in the near future). 1939 – Niekro (97.3), Yaz (96) 1938 – Perry (93.6), McCovey (64.4), B. Williams (63.9) 1937 – Brooks (78.4), Marichal (61.8) 1936 – Drysdale (61.3), Killebrew (60.4) 1935 – Gibson (81.9), Koufax (53.2), Frank Robinson (107.2) 1934 – Aaron (142.3), Clemente (94.4), Kaline (92.6) 1933 – This is a free year – Rocky Colavito tops the list (44.8) 1932 – Also a free year – Maury Wills tops the list (39.7) And it’s a good thing those are free years,… Read more »

bells

11 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

that’s a great summary of what’s to come, Artie, thanks. It seems like our strategic voting dam is destined to burst. Throw in Mo and Jr. sometime around the 1938/37 votes, and I see some guys on our ballot that have been hanging on that could be toast. Of course, the pendulum swings in the 1920s (and 1910s, and 1900s to an extent) back towards a dearth of depth, as we get into the era where players had their careers before expansion, so obviously there are fewer players and fewer great ones as a result (not to mention segregation etc).… Read more »

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

1969? Please? Or some scheduling of it?

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to mosc

Early December, on the first anniversary of the first COG vote. That way we maintain continuity with the original template of not including those younger than 44 years old. Mariano and Griffey both turn 44 in late November.

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Yay!! Makes sense to me.

Bix

11 years ago

Pete Rose, Dick Allen, Kenny Lofton

11 years ago

Palmer, Whitaker, Grich

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Allen, Grich, Ryan

aweb

11 years ago

Ryan, Grich, Palmer No Rose this ballot, although he’s essentially a even more durable and lasting version of Whitaker, who is on my ballot sometimes. Through age 38 (when Whitaker retired), Whitaker has better per 650 PA numbers (by bbref WAR, 5.4 to 4,8), but of course Rose played much more and had slightly more WAR total. Grich was even higher, at 6.1 WAR/650 PA (retired at age 37). Rose’s distinguishing talent was that he played 157 games (excluding 1981 strike) a year until he was 42 (a gamer, always ready to go, etc.). A valuable talent to be sure,… Read more »

Kirk

11 years ago

Alomar, Allen and Wilbur Wood just cause I wish he had been mad a starter 4 years earlier and should have won the Cy Young in 1971.

Dr. Remulak

11 years ago

Biggio, Palmer, Rose.

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

11 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons: Rose 44.2 Grich 43.6 Whitaker 42.7 Martinez 41.3 Smoltz 40.1 Lofton 39.3 Ryan 39.1 Sandberg 38.8 Alomar 36.8 Biggio 36.3 Palmer 36.0 Allen 35.9 Murray 34.9 Wood 29.8 Never has “excluding negative seasons” been so important, as Rose was a total of 13.7 wins below average in the 1980s, including 7.5 wins below between 1982 and 1983. Has anyone else ever played 150+ games in back-to-back seasons in which they were worth as little as Rose? Anyway, based on on-field merits only, I do think Rose was the best of this bunch, by… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

Rose was -3.2 WAR total for 1982-1983, according to b-ref. Sam Dente, Rick Porcello’s grandpa, was -3.1 WAR over 1949-50 playing over 150 games each season as the Senators’ starting shortstop in those years (one BBWAA writer even gave Dente a 10th-place MVP vote in 1950).

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Odd confluence on Sam Dente. I truly had never heard of the guy, but from the discussion of WS 3-run HRs on another thread, I noticed “Dente scores” on Hank Majeski’s HR in 1954 — incidentally, the only time Dente reached base in the WS. I never knew that Porcello had a big-league grandpa. (It doesn’t show on either player’s B-R page.) Now I see that Dente died in Montclair NJ, where one of my sisters lives, and the home of the Yogi Berra Museum). Where will Sam Dente crop up next? And did he have a brother named Al?

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Way back when, my friends and joked about his brother “Al”.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Didn’t hit the word I hard enough.

CursedClevelander

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Never knew that about Dente and Porcello. I had heard of Sam Dente because of his place in Tribe history. He played for the 1954 Indians, filling in for the injured George Strickland, and according to my Cleveland Indians Encyclopedia, a popular chant/mantra was “Win plenty with Sam Dente!” Not that Dente had much to do with it, but hey, people back then loved scrappy good-glove shortstops, and no die-hard fan of Omar Vizquel can blame them.

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Dente got his MVP vote in the same season he made this list for lowest OPS+ with 600+ PA and all slash components under .300. Hey, there are two HOFers on the list, including one whose season was worse than Dente’s. Rk Player PA BA OBP SLG OPS+ ▴ Year Age Tm Lg 1 Billy Hunter 604 .219 .253 .259 37 1953 25 SLB AL 2 Tommy Helms 607 .237 .262 .282 44 1970 29 CIN NL 3 Ozzie Smith 649 .211 .260 .262 48 1979 24 SDP NL 4 Zoilo Versalles 626 .200 .249 .282 51 1967 27 MIN AL… Read more »

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Reply to Doug

Correction. Just one HOFer. Number 10 is Roy Schalk, NOT Ray Schalk.

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to Doug

Ozzie’s 24yo numbers make me wonder, yet again, if the rules allow you to DH for any position instead of pitcher.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Doug

Section 6.10(b) of MLB’s rules provides that “A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game.” That’s the rule — a DH can be used in place of the pitcher only, not in place of any other position player.

Brendan Bingham

11 years ago

Every once in a while a completely unexpected name shows up on one of these ballots. The surprise on this ballot is John Kennedy. While I remember Kennedy’s playing days, I had no clue that he had a >10-year MLB career. I always thought of him as a thoroughly undistinguished utility infielder. Looking up his record, I see that he was no hitter (this fits with my memory) and on balance the numbers say that he was not a great fielder either, although he does have some impressive range factor and TZR stats from early in his career. So, perhaps… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Brendan Bingham

Since 1945, 318 players have played at least 200 regular season games at third base. Of that group, the lowest OPS numbers while playing third base:
1. John Kennedy .570
2. Dale Berra .597
3. Greg Pryor .604
4. Jose Lopez .613
5. Sammy Esposito .614

One wonders whether both of the first two guys listed here lasted somewhat longer in the majors than they otherwise would have based on a certain sentimentality related to their names.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Murray, Rose, Sandberg I’m no great admirer of Rose’s, but I think he belongs in the COG (and I don’t think Ryan belongs, so a vote for Rose is in a sense a vote against Ryan. Although if he doesn’t make it this round I think Ryan’s likely to win next year’s Pt 1 ballot.). I’ve been voting for Alomar for a long time now, but he seems likely to gain enough support to stay on the ballot, so I’m distributing my strategic votes to those currently in greater need of them. All of which may well come to naught:… Read more »

Mike L

11 years ago

Palmer, Sandberg, and in a completely homer pick, my favorite player growing up (besides Mickey) Mel Stottlemyre. If he’d pitched in our era, surgery could have spared him retirement by age 32. I’m a no go on Rose. Perhaps it’s unfair, but a guy banned for life for gambling is a bridge too far. Even if he only bet when he was a manager, and even if he only bet on his team to win. The possibility for mischief is too great–a manager decides on in-game tactics and which players to play and when. Let’s say he had $100 down… Read more »

11 years ago

Jim Palmer, Edgar Martinez, Nolan Ryan

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Thoughts, not voting yet: Pete Rose — He’s just like anybody else with 4200 hits. Tim McCarver — last catcher to lead NL in triples. Boog Powell — during his productive years (1962-1976), 11th in MLB with 339 HR Ed Brinkman — coached with White Sox in 1980s Ken Berry — Nearly led 1967 White Sox with .241 average; earned a trip to the All-Star game. In 1972 earned a gold glove with 13 assists, 0 errors in the outfield. Mike Ryan — vote for him just for the confusion factor? entered game 4 of the 1967 WS on a… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Good stuff, obs. I get Boog as 10th in the majors in homers over that period (2nd in the AL to Killebrew).

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Tenth, or, the first position available to non-PI subscribers. Right between Mays at 9 (341) and Yastrzemski at 11 (327).

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

It’s also tenth to non-PI subscribers. Run the Batting Season Finder for 1962-1976, set for Combined Seasons, sort by HR, set Choose a Stat equal to or greater than 256 HR and run in ascending order. The results spreadsheet will show the top 11 in HR in reverse order.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Hmmm. HR by a 2b (60%), 1971-1997:
1)Sandberg
2)Whitaker
3)Grich
4)Morgan
5t)FWhite, JSamuel
7)Lopes
8)RThompson
9)Biggio

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Hmmm. HR by a 2b (60%), 1971-1997:
1)Sandberg
2)Whitaker
3)Grich
4)Morgan
5t)FWhite, JSamuel*
7)Lopes
8)RThompson
9)Biggio*
10)Baerga*

*played after 1997

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

We can use either the Event Finder or the Split Finder in the Play Index to get an exact count of regular season homers while in the game at second base over the period 1971-97:
Sandberg 277
Whitaker 239
Morgan 218
Grich 197
White 156
Lopes 125
Samuel 120
Thompson 119
Alomar 110
Baerga 97
Biggio 91

jeff hill

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

Wow, a good bit of trivia for everyone except Ryan…who you obviously don’t like, hence the negative. I just don’t get that hatred from so many for the Ryan Express.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

I’ve always been fascinated by Darold Knowles’ 1970:

2-14
2.04 era

51 of his 71 appearances had an aLI over 1
29 over 2
14 over 3

The lowest aLI of his 14 losses was 1.59

Back when good relief pitchers weren’t just rubbed with a diaper in Cameron’s Dad’s garage.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Most games started in a season, since 1900:

51 Jack Chesbro
49 Wilbur Wood
48 Wilbur Wood
48 Joe McGinnity

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

If I had ONE notable skill, and it was this painful, and my notoriety was taken from me, I would be pissed:
__________

Ron Hunt’s 50 hit-by-pitches in 1971 are the highest season total in the 20th Century, only trailing Hughie Jennings’ 51 in 1896 on the all-time list.

When Hunt posted his total, Jennings was credited with only 49 hit-by-pitches that season, meaning that Hunt was celebrated for a while as the all-time record holder.

Years later, further research credited Jennings with two more instances in 1896, giving him back the record.
_________________________

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Also, he struck out only 41 times that year.

50/41 HBP/SO

KalineCountry

11 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Jim Palmer
Bill Freehan

JasonZ

11 years ago

RE: ROSE I agree with Mike L. I would add two points. 1. What message did it send to the gambling community when he did not place a bet? The answer is, he thinks they could lose. As Mike L. Said, “the potential for mischief is great”. 2. There is a sign in every clubhouse that says “No Gambling “. Pete Rose must have seen that sign thousands and thousands of times over the course of his playing career. He proved himself a student of the game and its history during the pursuit of Cobb. He knew full well what… Read more »

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Initial vote by merit alone: 1. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 2. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 3. Jim Palmer (5.9 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1969-78) Ranking of other candidates of note: 4. Dick Allen (6.6 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1964-72) 5. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 6. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99) 7. Lou Whitaker (5.5 WAR/162 during 15-yr peak of 1979-93) 8. Pete Rose (5.5 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1965-76) 9. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of… Read more »

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

I can’t wait to see some of these numbers once we get to 1935. If Lofton and Grich are still on the ballot then … there will be some players who begin to dwarf their numbers. I would guess Aaron, Clemente, and possibly Kaline (all born in 1934) would rate ahead of anyone currently on the ballot – and that doesn’t count Frank Robinson or Gibson from 1935. And if Grich or Lofton happen to beat out Clemente or Kaline (they ain’t beating out Henry Aaron – if they do I call shenanigans on the method!), then when it gets… Read more »

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Reply to Artie Z.

Well Artie, since you were wondering, Aaron and Clemente obliterate Lofton by my method, and Kaline, Gibson, and Robinson (not necessarily in that order) also beat out Lofton.

And once we get to ’31, it is highly probable that some of those guys will still be on the ballot, where Mays puts them all (except possibly Aaron) to shame, and, as I should recognize, Lofton and Grich will probably be forgotten by that point.

Josh

11 years ago

Pete Rose, Jim Palmer, John Smoltz

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Josh

Welcome, new voter. Hope you’ll stick with us going forward.

Josh

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

i’ve been reading the site since it’s inception, i’ve just been quiet. i’m going to try to be more active.

RonG

11 years ago

Ryan, Palmer, Grich

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to RonG

Through the initial 27 votes, the top 4 vote-getters:
Rose and Palmer 13 each
Ryan 12
Grich 8

No one else has more than 5.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

What if there is a tie in the final results?

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

A tie would result in a runoff ballot in which voters are simply asked to select one among the tied players. The player with the most votes in the runoff is inducted, while it’s back to the holdover list for the other player (or players, if it was more than a two-way tie).

Paul E

11 years ago

Sandberg
Allen
Alomar

Re Rose, since he was a teenager in Macon GA in some Class D league, there was a sign on the wall regarding gambling…..kinda like Adam and Eve and that goofy tree.

It did occur to me that Pete Rose did have an awful lotta seasons just like the one Carpenter just had for the Cardinals. 126 R 199 H .3?? BA ,,,,you get the idea

GrandyMan

11 years ago

Ryan Whitaker Rose

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

A lot of great points made on this thread on the Rose situation. All I’ll add is this; The same relentlessly competitive assholism that caused his downfall is what drove him to play more baseball than anybody else. As a rookie, in 1963, he ran to first after a walk. Can you imagine the sort of crap he took for that? And he never stopped. He made 1200 more outs than the next guy on the list. I’m not making an argument for or against anything. Just pointing out that the guy most of us were uniquely inspired by is… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Actually, I suppose the point that I am making is:

We go too far in idolizing our sports heroes, and
we go too far in punishing them when they fail.

bells

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

I remember a point about 6-7 years ago when I was watching hockey (my sport of choice, upholding the stereotype of my fellow Canadians) and a player I particularly disliked was being interviewed. I said to my friend, ‘gawd, I hate that guy’. He said ‘huh, why’s that?’ My answer was ‘well, just look at him! He looks like the kind of guy who would have beat you up in high school!’ His answer was ‘you know who else is probably like that? EVERYONE in the National Hockey League’. I already took idolization of professional athletes with a grain of… Read more »

brp

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Pretty much the same reason Michael Jordan is, by almost all accounts, and incredible jerk.

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

I’m voting for Rose next year.
___________

Nolan Ryan
Kenny Lofton
Wilbur Wood

jajacob

11 years ago

Rose, Ryan, Whitaker

Rose was in one of the first two packs of Baseball Cards I got (1973). He wasn’t one of my favorites despite this fact.

JasonZ

11 years ago

RE. Rose. This seems like a good time to tell the story of how Pete Rose got his nickname. Mickey Mantle said in Ken Burns’ documentary Baseball, that it happened during spring training in 1963. Mantle hit a prodigious blast, Rose ran to the fence and tried to climb it in a futile attempt. There was no chance and everybody knew it. When Mantle got back to the bench he sat next to Whitey Ford. Ford looked over and said something to the effect of, “what did you think of Charlie Hustle out there?” Just like that, what was a… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Sort of interesting that Rose was playing outfield in that 1963 spring training game. He came through the minors as a 2B (zero OF games listed). And before switching to OF in 1967, Rose made just one appearance in the OF — the last 2 innings of the last game of 1963.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

The Charlie Hustle anecdote about Mantle and Ford seems to exist in a number of different versions, some of which seem to involve the running to first base on a walk thing, or just Rose’s general manic habits, rather than the specific outfield setting.

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I heard it as running to first on a walk as well.

Paul E

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

I had read (more than once) that Pete was detested by the Reds’ veterans that spring training in 1963 since he was taking veteran Don Blasingame’s job at 2B. I imagine the Hustling Hard-On was about as insufferable as they get.

oneblankspace

11 years ago

[X] Biggio
[X] Whitaker
[X] EMurray

mosc

11 years ago

I agree with Mike L and Jason Z on Rose. Steroids had no penalty and then later when they did, guys served it. Rose’s crimes also have a penalty, and he needs to shut the f up and serve it.

Ryan
Palmer
Wood

Wood’s short 4-year peak was Koufax like. Also, we throw accolades at smoltz like candy for working out of the pen but Wood was a hell of a reliever as well. He also belongs in the hall of nice guys, as with most MLB Knucklers. A better fraternity you will not find.

ATarwerdi96

11 years ago

Edgar Martinez, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker

Hartvig

11 years ago

Again, looking at a lot of names I became familiar with from my baseball cards. And again, a lot of names that bring back fond memories. Boog Powell- the gentle giant Stottlemyre and Downing- from when the Yankees were still in their glory years and then not Ed Brinkman- who can thank Ray Oyler for not being the poster boy for the good field/no hit club of his era Bill Freehan and Wilbur Wood- I didn’t fully come to appreciate their true talent until years after they had finished playing I did learn something new however. When I read up… Read more »

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Among players with a career OPS+ under 70, Ed Brinkman has the 3rd highest number of PAs, behind only Ozzie Guillen and Alfredo Griffin.

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

IMHO, nobody ever looked more like an “all-glove, no-bat” SS than Eddie Brinkman. Might have helped extend his career.

J.R.

11 years ago

Pete Rose, Nolan Ryan, Bobby Grich

11 years ago

Stunned by the complete lack of support for Bill Freehan, who ranks 13th all-time in catcher WAR. That compares quite favorably with Dick Allen, who ranks 14th among 1st basemen or 15th among 3rd basemen, depending on which position you put him at. Allen had no problem advancing and looks like he’ll advance again. Yet Freehan’s getting 0 support.

What am I missing?

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

Well, Allen put up some gaudy numbers, and had some dominant years, and I think there are some who feel he’s been overlooked/underrated. On the other hand, Freehan was a very fine player for a number of years, but still accumulated “only” 44.8 WAR, which is far less than anyone currently in the COG. Allen’s 58.7 WAR, while also less than anyone who’s been elected, is at least in the ballpark. Least WAR in the COG to date: Piazza 59.2 Fisk 68.3 Gwynn 68.9 Raines 69.1 Carter 69.8 Three of those five were catchers, of course, but there’s still a… Read more »

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David H – Fair points though I would expect HHS readers to be less influenced by “gaudy numbers” and more willing to look at the whole package. And by the way, I’m not saying that I think Freehan deserves election to the COG, just that I’m surprised that he’s being completely ignored. Of course this isn’t the first time that’s happened to him. Freehan was an 11 time all-star, 4 time gold glove winner at catcher, had 2nd, 3rd, and 7th place finishes in MVP votes (plus 3 other times on the ballot). But when he appeared on the HOF… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

I’m just speculating on why Allen has drawn some support, I didn’t (and wouldn’t) vote for him myself. By ‘gaudy numbers’ I was primarily thinking of his 156 OPS+ (or his 155 wRC+, if one prefers), which certainly is impressive, tied with Willie Mays and Big Hurt Thomas for 19th-21st all time. In some ways Allen strikes me as a poor man’s Ted Williams: an outstanding hitter, an indifferent fielder, a lightning rod for controversy. As for Freehan and HoF voters: there’s little the latter can do or has done that would surprise me. The same year Freehan appeared on… Read more »

Josh

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

people probably left Hank Aaron off because he was basically to them the African American that stole Babe Ruth’s hallowed record. same reason somebody is probably not going to vote for Mariano Rivera because he couldn’t make it as a starter.

not saying either is a good reason, both are stupid reasons. i’m just saying somebody felt that way and somebody will feel that way.

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David H – I imagine part of what happened to Freehan is that he was “Johnny Benched”. As good as Freehan was, part of his career overlapped with Bench. And he clearly pales in comparison to Bench (as do most catchers). So when voters look at what Freehan did and then compare it to what Bench did, they’re not impressed.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Ed @ 117 –

That’s a good point about Bench, I think that probably played a part. Also, Freehan’s numbers look superficially unimpressive because the heart of his career came during a very low-offense era.

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

To Ed, about Freehan’s dearth of COG votes — Which contingent of COG voters would you expect to support him? I’m a Freehan fan, and I could make a HOF case for him. But I think the COG is a higher standard. Freehan’s 15th in WAR among modern catchers, 17th in WAR per PA among those with 5,000 PAs. The HOF has a dozen modern catchers; I don’t think the COG will have more than that. I’m not voting for Freehan. If Freehan *did* have some gaudy batting numbers, I might expect some scattered support. Since he doesn’t, the voting… Read more »

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

John A – Again my point is that if you look beyond the gaudy numbers, Allen and Freehan have basically the same historical ranking at their respective positions (I have Freehan ranked a bit higher than you because I only looked at retired players since that’s what the COG covers). In general, I would expect HHS readers to be more willing/likely to look beyond the gaudy numbers than the average baseball fan though perhaps I’m wrong about that. I’m not necessarily advocating for Freehan….just pointing out what appears to me to be a difference in how to similar players are… Read more »

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Ed @127 — Thanks for clarifying. And yes, I forgot to use the “inactive” filter. So, for retired players, I get these rankings: Career WAR at position — Allen 14th, Freehan 15th. WAR per PA at position (min. 5,000 PAs) — Allen 8th, Freehan 16th. Even if it’s somewhat harder to amass WAR as a catcher, I think Allen has a higher, longer peak. I can’t see any period of consecutive years for which Freehan is in Allen’s league. I don’t think Allen’s COG votes have to be due to gaudy batting numbers with no regard to defense or context.… Read more »

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Ed:

Two catchers with similar WAR totals to Freehan were recently up for election in the COG: Gene Tenace and Thurman Munson.

Both received fewer than five votes and were one-and-done.

As to Freehan having zero votes, I think this ballot is a little more stacked than the ones Munson and Tenace were on.

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Fair point Bstar though I’m thinking I’m making an anti-Allen point as much as a pro-Freehan one. Or at least that’s what I was intending. 🙂 So let me try a different angle. In #130, John states that Allen is 8th at his position (I assume 1st?) in WAR/PA. Of course, there’s a slight problem with this…Allen tends to look good on that metric because he retired young and didn’t go through the extended decline phase that many great players do. Anyway, I searched for players who 1) have been on the COG ballot, 2) put up WAR and PAs… Read more »

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I guess the thing that separates Dick Allen from the three players you mention is his transcendent ability as a hitter.

You can pretty easily make the case that Dick Allen was baseball’s best hitter from around ’65 to ’75. That carries a lot of weight.

Consider Mike Piazza. Do we consider him as equal to the other catchers with similar WAR or do we place Piazza higher because he’s the best hitting catcher of all-time? I think there’s a similar dynamic at work with Allen.

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

You can also make the case that he was baseball’s worst defensive player from 1965-1975. He had -100 Rfield during that period. Only Frank Howard (-94) and Rick Monday (-84) were close.

His dWAR (-15.4) was second worst to Frank Howard (-19.6) during that time period.

That should carry some weight too.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Looking at this with comparisons from more modern players: Dick Allen’s OPS+ is the same as Frank Thomas. But Thomas went to bat about 2700 more times, so there’s a big difference there in playing time. If I carve out a career for Gary Sheffield that has about the same number of PAs as Dick Allen’s career PAs, from 1992-2004 Sheffield had a 154 OPS+ in 7475 PAs. Allen has slightly higher WAR than admittedly cherry-picked Sheffield (58.7 to 51.3), but I have this belief that the introduction of the DH hammers a guy like Sheffield (or Manny) who are… Read more »

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I believe I’m the only one to vote for Sheffield. I still think he was a better ball player than Larry Walker, Tony Gwynn, or Tim Raines.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

Freehan was 3rd in the MVP voting in 1967, and 2nd in 1968. He never got a first place vote (Yaz in ’67 and Bill’s battery-mate McLain in ’68 were unanimous choices) but WAR also gives him great credit for those two seasons. WAR has him as the best catcher in the majors each of those two seasons (well, tied with McCarver in ’67), and only Yaz and Brooks Robinson in the AL totaled more WAR in the AL across those two seasons. Here are the top 6 age 25-26 combined WAR seasons for catchers: Joe Mauer 13.4 Bill Freehan… Read more »

JasonZ

11 years ago

In honor of Boog Powell’s biceps I present the following list…

Highest OPS+ at 1B, career span 1940-80,
Minimum 1,000 games.

1. Stan Musial 159
2. Willie McCovey 147
3. Norm Cash 139
4. Boog Powell 134

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

JasonZ, how did you get that list? That is, exactly what is meant by “at 1B”? Is there something that gives career OPS+ strictly for the games played at a certain position?

When I do a normal search for those years, with 50% of games at 1B, I get Johnny Mize 1st at 151, with the same nos. 2-4 as you presented.

Either way, more praise for Norm Cash!

JasonZ

11 years ago

RE: Rose

Considering Rose’s “credibility”, even his own words on the nickname has to be questioned.

Especially considering the motivation here…

http://m.ebay.com/itm/400574109292

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

Which makes me wonder … if Rose is elected to the Circle of Greats, and he finds out that he is elected, would he begin signing baseballs as “Pete Rose, COGer”?

brp

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

We all need to stop with the judging a player by his personality nonsense. OJ Simpson is still arguably a top-10 RB in the history of the NFL. That didn’t change because he’s a murderer and horrible human being.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Reply to brp

I’m not sure people are judging the player by his personality … just the man.

Rose is running 2nd in balloting this round to Nolan Ryan, despite the fact that Rose is banished from baseball (which, even though I voted for Rose for COG, is really the only thing someone who didn’t vote for Rose needs to say to me in order for me to say “Good enough reason for me”.)

JasonZ

11 years ago

I actually just sorted the 1B JAWS list by OPS+. I chose 1940, to eliminate the offensive 1930’s. Wanted to end it by 1980 so as to keep out the start of the steroid era. And actually Musial only played about 1/3 of his career games at 1B and shouldn’t be on the list. The other three all played most of their games at 1B, Boog at around 75% has the lowest percentage of the three. I wanted to draw attention to Boog. Fascinating to think that over a 40-year span, Boog Powell and Norm Cash comprise 2 of the… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to JasonZ

It does seem to work that way a lot. For 7 years in the 1930’s you had Lou Gehrig, Jimmy Foxx & Hank Greenberg all playing first base and all in the American League. But once Greenberg got traded to Pittsburg after the 1946 season would can anyone come up with a name for who would be the best AL first baseman between 1946 until say 1960? The best I can come up with is Mickey Vernon and then Ferris Fain unless you want to go with Moose Skowron and he was really only a platoon player during that time… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Top Season WAR By a First Baseman (i.e., a guy with more games played at first than any other one position) in the AL:
1947 George McQuinn
1948 Ferris Fain
1949 Mickey Vernon
1950 Ferris Fain
1951 Ferris Fain
1952 Ferris Fain
1953 Mickey Vernon
1954 Mickey Vernon
1955 Vic Power
1956 Bill Skowron
1957 Bob Boyd
1958 Vic Power
1959 Vic Power
1960 Bill Skowron

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

You could also consider Gil Hodges and Ted Kluszewski

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Now I see you are talking just about the AL.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

I’ve edited my comment to now make that clear.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Did you know that Ferris Fain has the ninth highest OBP (min. 3000 PA) with .424, tied with Edie Collins?

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Even if you included Hodges & Klu & Earl Torgeson the drop off is still pretty dramatic. I mostly excluded the NL because the Big Cat was still there thru part of the 49 season so that narrowed my window by a fair amount.

Still the reality is that the difference in talent in BOTH leagues between the 1930’s & the 1950’s is pretty extraordinary.

I think you could do the same thing with the center fielders of the 50’s and shortstops of the 80’s AND 90’s compared to a lot of other eras as well.