Circle of Greats: 1943 Part 1 Balloting

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This post is for voting and discussion in the 31st round of balloting for the Circle of Greats. This round begins to add those players born in 1943. Rules and lists are after the jump.

Players born in 1943 will be brought on to the COG eligible list over two rounds — the top half of the alphabet this round and the bottom half of the alphabet next round. The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round. The new group of 1943-born players, in order to join the eligible list, must have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Wednesday, October 2, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Monday, September 30.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: COG 1943 Round 1 Vote Tally. I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1943 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players. The 13 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same. The new group of 1943 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played. In total there were 30 players born in 1943 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement. 15 of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Sandy Alomar, Sr. through Lee May). The 15 players further down in the alphabet (Joe Morgan, et al.) will be added next round.

Holdovers:
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 10 rounds)
Nolan Ryan (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 8 rounds)
Steve Carlton (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Bobby Grich (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Edgar Martinez (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Kenny Lofton (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Jim Palmer (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Graig Nettles (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1943, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Jose Cardenal
Lee May
Sandy Alomar
Andy Etchebarren
Davey Johnson
Dave May

Pitchers (born in 1943, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Tommy John
Tom Burgmeier
John Hiller
Nelson Briles
Mike Marshall
Jack Billingham
Lew Krausse
Wade Blasingame
Jerry Johnson

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11 years ago

Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Edgar Martinez

Mike

11 years ago

Steve Carlton
Jim Palmer
Nolan Ryan

Going to be a lot of power pitchers inducted for a while.

CursedClevelander

11 years ago

A couple interesting new names on the list (John, Hiller, D. Johnson), but no one with, IMHO, a serious COG chance, unless there’s a huge undercurrent for John that I’m unaware of.

So which holdover will get the call? Seems like the pitchers (Ryan, Carlton, Palmer, Smoltz) might be fighting for the COG spot.

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

http://www.highheatstats.com/2013/03/rank-this-reliever/

http://www.highheatstats.com/2013/03/john-hiller-ace-reliever-of-the-70s-part-2/

Mike HBC

11 years ago

I must agree with the above Mike- Carlton, Palmer, Ryan.

--bill

11 years ago

Carlton, Grich, Nettles

Bix

11 years ago

Carlton, Grich, Lofton

brp

11 years ago

Reply to Bix

Going with the same ballot:
Carlton
Grich
Lofton

Chris C

11 years ago

Just to be a contrarian I’m filling out a 2B ballot.

Biggio, Alomar, Sandberg

Darien

11 years ago

Reply to Chris C

Which Alomar? We have two of them now. 🙂

Chris C

11 years ago

Reply to Darien

Funny, didn’t realize. Roberto Alomar gets the vote.

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to Darien

We may have NO Alomars after this round :(.

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

The ballot currently has five second basemen (and only four other non-pitchers). I’m pretty sure it could stand to lose one.

Daniel Longmire

11 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Yes, we have no Alomars. 🙂

Darien

11 years ago

Sticking to my guns: Ryan, Biggio, Lofton.

J.R.

11 years ago

Ryan, Grich, Palmer

jeff hill

11 years ago

Ryan, Lofton, Smoltz

oneblankspace

11 years ago

This is not a vote, but the S. Alomar on the ballot is Sandy Alomar, Sr., the father of Roberto and Sandy, Jr.

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Initial vote based on merit: 1. Kenny Lofton (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 2. Bobby Grich (6.6 WAR/162 during 12-yr peak of 1972-83) 3. Jim Palmer (5.9 WAR/162 during 10-yr peak of 1969-78) Others worthy of consideration: 4. Ryne Sandberg (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1984-92) 5. Graig Nettles (6.2 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1970-78) 6. Craig Biggio (5.8 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1991-99) 7. Lou Whitaker (5.5 WAR/162 during 15-yr peak of 1979-93) 8. Eddie Murray (5.7 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1978-86) 9. Steve Carlton (5.3 WAR/162 during 9-yr peak of 1969-77) —… Read more »

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

Tommy John, the ultimate compiler. I actually looked yesterday (in pondering your weekly posts) and marveled at his 6.3 WAR/162 during a THREE-year peak.

11 years ago

Steve Carlton, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich

RonG

11 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Palmer

Andy

11 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Smoltz.

11 years ago

Carlton, Whitaker, Grich

e pluribus munu

11 years ago

Whitaker, Smoltz, Palmer

Sad not to be voting for TJ, but even more for Hiller; Hiller was something special.

T-Bone

11 years ago

Sandberg
Ryan
An old fave of mine – Tommy John

David Horwich

11 years ago

Alomar (Roberto), Murray, Sandberg

A vote to keep guys on the bubble from falling off the ballot, obviously. If I were voting strictly on the merits, I’d probably vote for Carlton, Martinez, and Palmer.

mosc

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

This round will be close on who wins and who doesn’t. You may keep somebody on the ballot but you are throwing away your choice on who wins. We don’t have Tom Seaver on this ballot like last year. Your stated preference for Carlton over Ryan is not reflected in your ballot and will not help him win the day if indeed you think he is most worthy.

I believe we should at least vote for who we think the strongest candidate is. Otherwise, things get weird.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to mosc

1) When this project started, I didn’t much care for the notion of strategic voting. My thinking has changed, as is evident. I haven’t done any “shout-out” votes, but it doesn’t bother me that people indulge in them from time to time. 2) If Carlton doesn’t win this round, I think he’s very likely to be elected within the next half dozen ballots or so. 3) I believe Ryan is very likely to be elected one of these years, no matter how many times I don’t vote for him. 4) With 32 ballots in, the current vote totals are Carlton… Read more »

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

“…I didn’t much care for the notion of strategic voting…My thinking has changed…”

Me too, David! I never thought I’d engage in strategic voting but it’s actually a very necessary part of this process (with the holdover eligibility rules and such).

If I actually had a real HOF vote, I’d like to think I would just vote for my top ten choices (there’s so many more deserving out there than ten) but at the very least this process has given me a deeper understanding of why someone would vote strategically with their Hall ballot.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

If I had an actual HoF vote (not likely!), I’d just vote straight up for the 10 (or fewer) I thought worthy.

Strategic voting of the type we engage in here isn’t so feasible with the HoF, since the HoF electorate is almost 10 times as large as ours (reducing the effect of any individual voter) and the voting is secret.

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Perhaps “strategic” isn’t the right word then.

I’m talking about things like some writer out there not voting for Greg Maddux this year because he knows Maddog is a shoo-in, or another writer dismissing every player from the steroid era and voting for guys like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, etc. instead.

I don’t agree with either of those choices but thanks to this process I understand them a little more.

David

11 years ago

Whitaker Carlton Palmer

koma

11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, John Smoltz, Steve Carlton

Fireworks

11 years ago

Steady Eddie, Rumors, Rockin’ Robbie (Spittin’ Image of His Dad)

fireworks

11 years ago

Reply to Fireworks

Well played, autocorrect.

Ryno, not rumors.

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

11 years ago

Reply to Fireworks

Is that Jack “Rumours” B~~uck~~illingham?

elkboy3

11 years ago

Carlton, Grich, Martinez

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Steve Carlton
Bobby Grinch
Ryne Sandberg

Chris C

11 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

You’re a mean one, Mr. Grinch.

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Reply to Chris C

Autocorrect fail. Bummer. I hate doing the voting from my phone for that reason. Argh.

Nick Pain

11 years ago

Nolan Ryan, Lou Whitaker, Eddie Murray

oneblankspace

11 years ago

Biggio, Carlton, EMurray.

Two of my votes are holdovers from previous rounds.

No telling what Murray could have done if he’d been a switch hitter. Plus he had a namesake who kicked field goals for the Detroit Lions and 6 other teams http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/murraedd01.htm .

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to oneblankspace

“No telling what Murray could have done if he’d been a switch hitter.”

Wild guess, I’d say he’d have hit something like .285 with about 500 HR, OPS+ around 130.

Dr. Remulak

11 years ago

Biggio, Smoltz, Palmer.

TJay

11 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Palmer

Gary Bateman

11 years ago

R. Alomar, Smoltz, Carlton

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

11 years ago

Most Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Carlton 46.7
Grich 43.6
Whitaker 42.7
Martinez 41.3
Smoltz 40.1
Lofton 39.3
Ryan 39.1
Sandberg 38.8
Alomar 36.8
Biggio 36.3
Palmer 36.0
Nettles 35.6
Murray 34.9
L. May 28.5
John 27.3

Carlton, Edgar, Grich

Kirk

11 years ago

Carlton, Palmer & R Alomar

mosc

11 years ago

I am scratching my head on Palmer vs Smoltz. I may post later on that, it’s pretty close to me. Regardless, neither will win and only one needs any help sticking around.

Ryan, Carlton, Palmer

KalineCountry

11 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Jim Palmer
John Hiller!!!

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to KalineCountry

The Play Index Event Finder gives me four games in which Whitaker and Hiller teamed up for the last play of a game: 5/19/1978: Hiller gets Carl Yastrzemski to ground to Whitaker, who throws over to Jason Thompson at first; Tigers beat the Red Sox, 7-5. 4/9/1979: Hiller gets Darrell Porter to pop out to Lou; Tigers defeat the Royals 7-3. 5/29/1979: Hiller gets Danny Ainge (yes, young Celtics fans, that Danny Ainge) to pop out to Whitaker; Tigers triumph over Blue Jays 9-8 (Lou scored the go-ahead run in the 8th inning). 7/25/1979: Hiller gets Sal Bando to ground… Read more »

KalineCountry

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Thanks for sharing that with me and the rest of the group here!!

Hub Kid

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I agree with KalineCountry- thanks for the great Tales From the Play Index Event Finder (appearances by Yaz, Darrell Porter, Danny Ainge Toronto ball player, Sal Bando and more!)

Artie Z.

11 years ago

Carlton, Roberto, and Murray.

CursedClevelander

11 years ago

Alright, I won’t concern myself with the bubble until a bit later.

Carlton (best pitcher on the ballot, IMO), Lofton (I’m sticking to it!), Whitaker (best of the remaining 2B, IMO)

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to CursedClevelander

Maybe Cleveland not so cursed at least for one post-walk-off morning?

CursedClevelander

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I refuse to comment until Game 162 is over :O

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

With four on-the-bubble candidates and only three votes, we cannot “save” everyone that we wish to. So I will vote for the nonexistant player Murray Roberto Sandberg:

– Eddie Murray
– Roberto Alomar
– Ryan Sandberg

If voting strictly on merit,I would take Carlton first, but after that,I’m not sure; there’s about 8-10 players not hugely different in value.

cubbies

11 years ago

steve carlton, bobby grich, Nolan ryan

Abbott

11 years ago

ryan
carlton
biggio

Jeff Harris

11 years ago

Whitaker, Carlton, Smoltz

Editor

Doug

11 years ago

Carlton, Ryan, Nettles

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

The man who pitched 106 games in relief
(74 times for MORE than one inning):

http://www.drmikemarshall.com/

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Carlton vs Ryan:

329
324

3.22
3.19

55
61

1.247
1.247 !

84.1
83.8

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

_____________

Nolan Ryan
Tommy John
Mike Marshall

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Voomo Zanzibar

Most Innings Pitched in Relief in a Season (numerals after the decimal point represent thirds of an inning): 1. Mike Marshall (1974) 208.1 2. Mike Marshall (1973) 179 3. Bob Stanley (1982) 168.1 4. Bill Campbell (1976) 167.2 5. Eddie Fisher (1965) 165.1 The 2013 leader in this category is the Twins’ Anthony Swarzak who is at 93.2 relief IP. No one has had more relief IP than that in a season since 2006, when Scott Proctor had 102.1. Mike Marshall has certainly been one of the more unconventional baseball figures, based on his performance on the field, his academic… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

In case anyone’s interested, here’s how long it’s taken our current CoG members to get elected:

1 ballot: Bench, Blyleven, Bonds, Brett, Carew, G Carter, Clemens, Henderson, R Jackson, R Johnson, Maddux, Piazza, Ripken, Schmidt, Seaver, Yount

2 ballots: Bagwell, Boggs, Fisk

3 ballots: O Smith

4 ballots: Thomas

7 ballots: Molitor

8 ballots: Mussina, Schilling

10 ballots: Larkin

11 ballots: L Walker

13 ballots: Glavine, Raines

14 ballots: Trammell

15 ballots: Gwynn

16 of 30 were elected on the first ballot.

Hub Kid

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Very interesting, David, thanks for compiling this.

Hub Kid

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Now that i have had a chance to think about it, I don’t think there was much real doubt about the ‘Greats’ elected within 10 rounds or list, it just took 10 rounds to clear various backlogs, 1 player at a time.

On the other hand, the inductees that took between 11 and 15 rounds were all hotly contested.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to Hub Kid

That sounds about right, although at this point I can’t remember to what extent Schilling and Mussina were considered no-doubters. Generally speaking the no-doubters have drawn 2/3 or more of the vote in the year they were elected, while the long-waiters come in around 50%. Mussina was elected with 49% of the vote, Schilling with 54%.

Anyway, it’s an amusing coincidence that so far no one who’s been elected has been on the ballot longer than is allowed on the BBWAA ballot. But I expect we’ll elect someone with more than 15 yrs on the ballot eventually.

Hub Kid

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

To join David’s info, here are all of the players who have been on the COG ballot for longer than 15 rounds, after 30 rounds (up to and including 1944):

R. Alomar: 30 (from 1968)

Smoltz: 29 (from 1967)

Biggio: 27 (from 1965)

Sandberg: 21 (from 1959)

Whitaker: 18 (from 1957)

Murray: 17 (from 1956)

Lofton & E. Martinez: 16 (both currently on the ballot for 8 rounds since 1949-1).

The next longest are Grich at 8, and Nolan Ryan at 5.

Phil

11 years ago

Ryan, Carlton, Alomar. I still have a bat used by Lee May during a spring training game in ’72; one of the groundskeepers gave it to me to make up for a couple of foul balls I chased down and–hard to believe–was asked to give back. He’d just been traded to Houston–I believe it was one of Roger Metzger’s bats.

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Phil

Speaking of Lee May with the Astros … The 1972-73 Astros had the same 4 players hit 20+ HRs each year — May, Cedeno, Wynn and Rader. I could be wrong, but that seems unusual.

Those were their only years with more than two 20-HR men until 1998.

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

OK, the 1965-66 Braves got 20+ HRs both years from Aaron, Felipe Alou, Mack Jones and Joe Torre. The 1996-97 Braves got 20+ HRs both years from Chipper, McGriff, Javy Lopez and Ryan Klesko. The 1961-62 Yankees got 20+ HRs both years from Mantle, Maris, Elston Howard and Moose Skowron. The 2009-10 Yankees got 20+ HRs both years from Cano, A-Rod, Swisher and Teixeira. And the 2010-12 Yankees got 20+ HRs all three years from Cano, Granderson, Swisher and Teixeira. That’s the only two teams I checked. So, I guess it’s not all that unusual. Perhaps more so in the… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

The Rockies did it in 1998-99 (Helton, Castilla, Bichette, Walker).

Late ’90s Mariners came close:

’96: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, Sorrento, Buhner
’97: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, Sorrento, Buhner, R Davis
’98: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, R Davis
’99: A-Rod, Griffey, E Martinez, R Davis, D Bell

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Whilst researching this, I came across San Francisco’s strike-shortened 1994 season, in which Bonds and Williams combined for 80 of SF’s 123 total home runs (65.0%). No other Giant had 10 homers. That percentage coming from just two players seems remarkably high: does anyone know the last time such a percentage was achieved, or what the highest all time is?

I had a quick look: Hank Greenberg and Rudy York combined for 66.4% of the 1938 Tigers’ homers and a quick glance at the 1920s Yankees shows that Ruth and Gehrig reached a figure of 67.7% in 1927.

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to RJ

Babe Ruth and Harry Hooper had 32 of the 1919 Red Sox’s 33 HRs, 97%.

11 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Thanks Richard! I figured it’d be Ruth and that era. Any idea the last time a figure higher than Bonds+Williams’ 65% was achieved? I’m guessing it’s a record or close to a record for the expansion era. I checked the big years for Sosa, McGwire and Maris and couldn’t see anything there.