Circle of Greats 1952-Part 2 Balloting

This post is for voting and discussion in the twentieth round of balloting for the Circle of Greats.  This round adds those players born in 1952 who were not added last round.  Rules and lists are after the jump.

Last round we added the top half of the alphabet from among the eligible players born in 1952, this round we add the bottom half of the alphabet.  The new group joins the holdovers from previous rounds to comprise the full group eligible to receive your votes this round.  The new group of 1952-born players must, as always, have played at least 10 seasons in the major leagues or generated at least 20 Wins Above Replacement (“WAR”, as calculated by baseball-reference.com, and for this purpose meaning 20 total WAR for everyday players and 20 pitching WAR for pitchers).

Each submitted ballot, if it is to be counted, must include three and only three eligible players.  The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats.  Players who fail to win induction but appear on half or more of the ballots that are cast win four added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots cast, but less than 50%, earn two added future rounds of ballot eligibility.  Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in ballot appearances, or who appears on at least 10% of the ballots, wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:00 PM EDT on Thursday, June 6, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:00 PM EDT Tuesday, June 4.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: 1952 Part 2 COG Vote Tally .  I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes.  Initially, there is a row in the spreadsheet for every voter who has cast a ballot in any of the past rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted.  Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the new born-in-1952 group will be added to the spreadsheet as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players.  The 10 current holdovers are listed in order of the number of future rounds (including this one) through which they are assured eligibility, and alphabetically when the future eligibility number is the same.  The new group of 1952 birth-year guys are listed below in order of the number of seasons each played in the majors, and alphabetically among players with the same number of seasons played.  In total there were 42 players born in 1952 who met the “10 seasons played or 20 WAR” minimum requirement.  21 of those are being added to the eligible list this round (alphabetically from Rick Langford through Pat Zachry).

Holdovers:
Tony Gwynn (eligibility guaranteed for 12 rounds)
Paul Molitor (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
John Smoltz (eligibility guaranteed for 6 rounds)
Lou Whitaker (eligibility guaranteed for 5 rounds)
Alan Trammell (eligibility guaranteed for 4 rounds)
Tim Raines (eligibility guaranteed for 3 rounds)
Craig Biggio (eligibility guaranteed for 2 rounds)
Roberto Alomar (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Eddie Murray (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)
Ryne Sandberg (eligibility guaranteed for this round only)

Everyday Players (born in 1952, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Fred Lynn
Darrell Porter
Jerry Royster
Jerry Mumphrey
Craig Reynolds
Ernie Whitt
Roy Smalley
Dan Meyer
Jim Morrison  (oh, and RIP Ray Manzarek)
Omar Moreno
Rowland Office
Jerry White
Jerry Remy (“Jerry” is the name of 4 of the 15 players in this list!)
Mike Squires
Ron Washington

Pitchers (born in 1952, ten or more seasons played in the major leagues or at least 20 WAR):
Bob McClure
Rick Waits
Rick Langford
Joe Sambito
Pete Vuckovich
Pat Zachry

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Mike HBC
Mike HBC
11 years ago

Jerry Remy, Jerry Remy, Jerry Remy

Just kidding. That guy is beyond annoying.

Again switching up my votes, again without much rationale besides staring at numbers until my brain came to a consensus with itself:
Molitor, Smoltz, Biggio.

Mike HBC
Mike HBC
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I don’t even know how you THINK to look up these things, but I envy you, birtelcom. Congrats to Jerry Remy, I suppose. Still hate hearing him, though- honestly, I think I hate hearing every home-team TV announcer who isn’t Vin Scully (though those White Sox guys make EVERYONE look like Vin Scully by comparison).

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  Mike HBC

Listening to a brewers broadcast makes you cry that you weren’t born in Milwaukee and we all know why.

brp
brp
11 years ago

Sandberg – the other two guys can drop off the ballot
Molitor
Trammell (whom we should have elected before/instead of Ozzie)

Still nobody new worth voting for.

Chris C
Chris C
11 years ago

Biggio, Raines, Alomar

MJ
MJ
11 years ago

You have the wrong Dan Meyer being linked to. Not that it matters.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
11 years ago
Reply to  MJ

If I’m not mistaken, Dan Meyer has the second lowest WAR total of any player not named Bill Bergen.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
11 years ago
Reply to  GrandyMan

Of course, you still have to be pretty good to stick around long enough to accumulate that many Wins Below Replacement.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

I’ll be sure to give him my vote when 1911 rolls around, birtelcom.

Also, I’d like to make a ballot change: I’m dumping Smoltz for Sandberg. Smoltz obviously is not going to win this round, and I’d like to see Sandberg get pushed over 25 percent — as unlikely as that is — so that he can get an extra round of eligibility.

Thanks,

GM

Gary Bateman
Gary Bateman
11 years ago

I was tempted to include Darrell Porter, but there just weren’t enough good seasons to justify him over any of the returners.

Gwynn, Molitor and Alomar.

MJ
MJ
11 years ago

My votes:

Lou Whitaker
Alan Trammell
Paul Molitor

I’ve been looking forward to this one. Those who don’t make it this time will find it very hard to make it ever.

David Horwich
David Horwich
11 years ago
Reply to  MJ

I dunno, I think some of the holdovers will stand a decent chance in the 1950 ballot, the 1st half of the 1949 ballot, and the 1948 ballot. After that it’ll get pretty crowded, to be sure.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  David Horwich

I’m guessing that Blyleven is the favorite in 51 with Winfield, Evans and maybe Gossage,Bell, Parker, Cedeno and/or Madlock getting some support. But with Ron Guidry, Brian Downing and Frank White leading the class of 50 and none of the holdovers from the class of 51 standing out from our current ones I think that David is probably right. By 1948 I’m guessing that 4 names that are currently on our ballot will be in the COG.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
11 years ago

Whitaker, Molitor, Smoltz for the Circle of Greats. For the Circle of Great Names, I’ll probably have to go with Mike Squires, Jim Morrison, and COGN Inner Circle member Rowland Office.

JEV
JEV
11 years ago

Gwynn,Smoltz,Biggio

Nick Pain
Nick Pain
11 years ago

Molitor, Whitaker, Raines.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons:

Trammell 44.7
Whitaker 42.7
Molitor 40.7
Smoltz 40.1
Sandberg 38.8
Alomar 36.8
Raines 36.8
Gwynn 36.5
Biggio 36.3
Murray 34.9
Lynn 27.0
Porter 20.3

Trammell. Whitaker. Smoltz.

Nadig
Nadig
11 years ago

Gwynn, Molitor, Raines.

The Diamond King
The Diamond King
11 years ago

Murray, Raines, Smoltz

T-Bone
T-Bone
11 years ago

Sandberg
Raines
Biggio

Jeff Harris
Jeff Harris
11 years ago

Whitaker, Trammell, Smoltz

mosc
mosc
11 years ago

I didn’t vote for ozzy, no need to change my vote I guess. I’d rather see Molitor get in than Gwynn so I am considering leaving him off as an additional +1 to Molitor but I’ll hold off for now. I might drop him off if it would swing the vote or if Sandberg/Murray need an extra vote.

Molitor, Smoltz, Gwynn

KalineCountry Ron
11 years ago

Trammell, Whitaker, Raines.

There would be much more of an uproar over Tram and Sweet Lou had the played their careers in Pinstripes, in Fenway, or say the Dodgers.

Great Mid market players have to do something spectacular year in and year out to get noticed.

Imagine how redsox nation would have reacted if say Whitaker spent his career with them and didn’t get the requisite 5% to stay on the ballot.

mosc
mosc
11 years ago

I still say the big thing for me with Whitaker was that his bat and glove never lined up in terms of excellence. He grew into his bat and aged out of his glove. If they had lined up, people would remember him better.

Trammel is well remembered. The guy has considerable HOF support. I think the idea that he’s forgotten is a little over-stated.

mosc
mosc
11 years ago

Why is Fred Lynn #84 on the ELO thing? He’s ahead of the great Joe Morgan, just for example. I mean was that 39 HR in one season (and no other above 25) so much more memorable than Joe’s sustained excellence in all facets of the game? That thing should be dead and buried by now.

Speaking of Morgan, are we really going to miss all these middle infielders when they have to be compared to the historic greats at their positions?

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  mosc

In theory I like the crowd-sourcing “wisdom of the crowds” of the ELO Rater in B-R, but in practice it often devolves into a simple popularity contest. Here are the 2nd basemen rated ahead of Morgan by ELO: – Jackie Robinson/ #14 – Nap Lajoie/ #17 – Rogers Hornsby/ #26 – Eddie Collins/ #33 -Charlie Gehringer/ #40 – Frankie Frisch/ #47 – Rod Carew/ #51 – Craig Biggio/ #52 – Lou Whitaker/ #81 – JOE MORGAN/ #85 – Roberto Alomar/ #86 I can accept that two or three of these players are actually better than Morgan, but not _all_ of… Read more »

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Morgan’s contributions to the game after his playing career ended have to cost him something like 20 WAR, right?

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@31/Bryan O’Connor –

Well, that’s just plain dumb – what does Joe Morgan’s broadcasting career have to do with how good a baseball player he was?

mosc
mosc
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Joe’s also a Sabermetric darling career wise which I find oddly ironic. We’re the ones saying “damn Joe, nobody could get you out!” instead of complaining about his .271 batting average and lack of even being close to 3000 hits despite 11329 PA’s. We’re the ones trying to add in his jaw dropping speed and sustained defensive performance into his career value. We’re the ones complaining that his OPS is unfairly low to compare directly to steroid era guys considering the era he played in.

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Not the first time my sarcasm has been missed in this forum, LA. I like Joe Morgan a lot less because of his broadcasting career, and depending on how seriously I wanted to take something like the ELO Rater, I might even dock him a bit for it. But that says more about the value of the ELO Rater than is says about Morgan.

As to his merits on the baseball field, I think Morgan was the best second baseman ever. Maybe less valuable than Hornsby, but he played against racially integrated competition and did everything well.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

@65/Bryan,

Yes, I _did_ know that you were being sarcastic. I just wanted to stir some discussion up on the merits of B-R’s EloRater.

That said, while EloRater was relatively accurate at first, it seems to have more than a few glaringly bad ratings now – Wade Boggs #12 and Elex Rodriguez #123?!?!

As Seth Meyers might say on SNL “Wade Boggs is the twelfth geatest baseball player ever? REALLY NOW??”.

I’d also rate Morgan the #1 second baseman ever, followed by Hornsby/Collins (choose one, then the other), followed by Lajoie, then Gehringer. JAWS has Hornsby/ Collins/ Lajoie/ Morgan.

michael Sullivan
michael Sullivan
11 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Mr. Jack Robinson probably belongs in the discussion as well. His WAR totals are less gaudy because he only played 10 years, but that wasn’t his fault.

Mike
Mike
11 years ago

Gwynn
Raines
Sandberg

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
11 years ago

Biggio, Gwynn, Smoltz

Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
11 years ago

Trammell, Sandberg, and Raines.

I was really hoping that I’d someday get to vote for Tim Raines, and it looks like this ballot is my chance!

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
11 years ago

Pretty much the definition of strategic voting :there are three players only eligible through this round,and I want all three to stay of the COG ballot:

– Roberto Alomar
– Eddie Murray
– Ryne Sandberg

With the paucity of new candidates,at least whe’ll clear away someone from the backlog.

mo
mo
11 years ago

Gwynn, Molitor, Trammel

Insert Name Here
Insert Name Here
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Actually, is it not true that if two people tie for 9th then they both make it through? Based on the current status of the ballot, that seems a distinct possibility.

Dalton Mack
Editor
11 years ago

Gwynn, Whitaker, Raines

oneblankspace
oneblankspace
11 years ago

Although I am tempted to put the name of Rowland Office on my ballot,

I’ll stick with
CBiggo, PMolitor, TGwynn (Sr.)

Andy
Andy
11 years ago

Gwynn
Smoltz
Biggio

wx
wx
11 years ago

Tony Gwynn, Craig Biggio, Lou Whitaker

bcholm
bcholm
11 years ago

Trammel, Sandberg, Raines

Artie Z.
Artie Z.
11 years ago

Molitor, Murray, Raines

ATarwerdi96
ATarwerdi96
11 years ago

Paul Molitor, Tony Gwynn, Lou Whitaker

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago

Quite a few “all-time greats” in such a short list of newcomers. For your consideration on the all-time ‘stache team (complete with accompanying mullet): And for the all-time great derogatory nickname team: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=morenom01 And perhaps falling short of greatness but one that nonetheless gives me great pleasure each time I hear it: Roland Office Even a couple of guys that might have made it into the Circle of Greats had things turned out a little different. Darrell Porter is the kind of guy that advances metrics as well as Whitey Herzog both love. But with alcohol possibly limiting his peak… Read more »

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I should have taken a few minutes to proof read that before I hit publish. Definitely could do with a bit of editing.

birtelcom
birtelcom
11 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

At shortstop, to pick one position, Travis Jackson, Jim Fregosi and Nomar Garciaparra were all guys who looked like superstars in their early years, but weren’t able to follow it up.

Hartvig
Hartvig
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Another Travis (Cecil) might qualify as well- although I’m not certain that either quite rise to the level I was looking for. Glenn Wright is another. But good call on Fregosi & Garciaparra- at some point in both of their careers they were considered as possibilities for the #2 spot behind Honus (maybe #3 behind ARod in Garciaparra’s case). Of course at center you’ve also got Benny Kauff, who was often compared to Cobb (although not ofter after moving from the Federal League to the NL even if he was quite a bit better than some people may have given… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
11 years ago

Paul Molitor
Eddie Murray
Roberto Alomar

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago

Alomar, Gwynn, Whitaker.

Phil
11 years ago

Gwynn, Molitor, Alomar.

PP
PP
11 years ago

Another pent-up voter here…

Gwynn, Molitor, Smoltz

jeff b
jeff b
11 years ago

Molitor smoltz and Murray

RonG
RonG
11 years ago

Trammell, Whitaker, Raines

David Horwich
David Horwich
11 years ago

Alomar, Gwynn, Raines

koma
koma
11 years ago

Tony Gwynn, John Smoltz, Lou Whitaker

Jeff Hill
Jeff Hill
11 years ago

Gwynn, Molitor, Raines

Bill Johnson
Bill Johnson
11 years ago

Trammel,

Whitaker,

and just because he’s the only guy that will ever be mentioned here that I played against-

Mike Squires (he was a terrific fielder getting a gold glove in his only full season I think).

Luis Gomez
Luis Gomez
11 years ago
Reply to  Bill Johnson

I think it’s an excellent reason for voting for Mike Squires. 🙂

aweb
aweb
11 years ago

Molitor, Trammell, Raines

Brent
Brent
11 years ago

I will vote for Darrell Porter just because I loved him. I wish he had conquered his demons but alas, he never quite did, leading to his early demise. I do find it ironic that Whitey Herzog loved him so much, given the fact that Whitey pretty famously got rid of anyone else he suspected of substance abuse problems (John Mayberry, Keith Hernandez to name a couple)

After that I will go with Whitaker and Trammell.

J.R. Lebert
J.R. Lebert
11 years ago

Biggio, Raines, Gwynn

Bryan O'Connor
Editor
11 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

10 holdovers, 5 of them Hall of Famers. Hall of Famers currently rank 1st, 2nd, 8th, 9th, and 10th in our voting.

Professor Larry
Professor Larry
11 years ago

Trammell, Whitaker, Raines

Dan McCloskey
Editor
11 years ago

Haven’t voted here in a while, mainly because I find it close to impossible to differentiate on such a crowded ballot, but here goes:

Molitor, Raines, Smoltz

bstar
11 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

You could try my ploy, Dan. Avoid the tough job of actually determining who you consider to be the top three by spreading your votes around every election and being as wishy-washy as possible about it.

I’ll go strategic on Eddie Murray and Craig Biggio then pick Paul Molitor as my top choice overall.

Murray, Biggio, Molitor

Darien
11 years ago

Gwynn, Trammell, and Raines

latefortheparty
latefortheparty
11 years ago

Lou Whitaker
Paul Molitor
Alan Trammell

And shouts for Fred Lynn and Darrell Porter.

Mike L
Mike L
11 years ago

Gwynne, Sandberg and Molitor. I have to admit I was sorely tempted by Omar (The Outmaker) Moreno. OPS+ of 79 (with a peak value of 91!) and career WAR of 9.2.