Circle of Greats: Redemption Round #1

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This Circle of Greats vote is not to induct anyone into the Circle, but only to select two players who will restored back on to the main ballot after having been previously been dropped from eligibility. The intent is to help assure that deserving guys who have may have been dropped during a particularly talent-heavy era get another chance in a different context where they might be more competitive.

Among those who have been dropped from eligibility, the guys listed below have received the most votes, but you can vote for anyone who was born between 1960 and 1968, played at least 10 years in the majors, is no longer on the ballot, and has not already been inducted in to the Circle of Greats. As usual, you must vote for three and only three guys to cast a qualifying ballot. The two guys who appear on the most ballots will be restored to eligibility for the next regular, induction round of of COG voting. If your personal favorite doesn’t come in the top two this time, do not despair — he will have other chances in future redemption rounds, which I currently plan to hold every ten rounds or so.

Here is the list of the previously dropped guys who have received more than one vote in past rounds. They are listed in order of the most total votes they received over the previous rounds in which they were eligible and, where that’s a tie, alphabetical order:

Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Jeff Kent
Kevin Brown
Trevor Hoffman
Kirby Puckett
Will Clark
Jimmy Key
Jamie Moyer
John Olerud
Rafael Palmeiro
Fernando Valenzuela
Andy Van Slyke
Omar Vizquel

As with the simultaneously running 1959 induction round, the deadline to cast your ballots in this redemption round is Sunday night at 11PM EST, on Feb. 24. You can change your votes until 11PM EST on Friday, Feb. 22. You can keep track of the vote tally in this redemption round here: Redemption Round 1 COG Vote Tally

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Phil

11 years ago

Palmeiro, Puckett, Kent.

11 years ago

Jamie Moyer, Jeff Kent, John Olerud

Chris C

11 years ago

Will Clark
Puckett
Kenny Lofton

Jeff Harris

11 years ago

Lofton, McGriff, Brown

Mike

11 years ago

Hoffman
Vizquel
McGriff

The Diamond King

11 years ago

Mattingly, Hoffman, Vizquel

Dr. Remulak

11 years ago

Mattingly, Key, McGriff

Artie Z

11 years ago

Lofton, Kevin Brown, Will Clark

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Of all the players you can vote for in this redemption round, the top 3 in career WAR are all on the list above in the post, but the next 5 highest in career WAR are not on the list in the post, because they did not receive more than one total vote during the original induction rounds in which they were eligible: McGwire, Cone, Saberhagen, Sheffield and Sosa.

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

So I’m going to use that same method of “peak” WAR/162 over a peak of 5+ years, with the omission of PROVEN cheaters. Also, I know this is contradicting an earlier claim I made, but I honestly am now recognizing Kevin Brown as a cheater who I will not vote for. This vote may seem somewhat out of left field, since it appears to be the first which includes someone not on the given list. Anywhere, here it is: 1. Kevin Appier (6.7 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1990-97) 2. Kenny Lofton (6.5 WAR/162 during 8-yr peak of 1992-99) 3.… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

We might need a little clarification here- does a redemption round ballot even count if it includes someone not on the list?

Is that different from voting for only 1 person?

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

OK, just saw the “anyone born between 1960 & 1968 qualifier” that I missed the first time around.

Now I’ve got to think about my vote a bit more.

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Yes, it’s occasions like this that I believe are why Appier and Saberhagen are fated to miss out. Oh well.

Brooklyn Mick

11 years ago

Kenny Lofton, Kevin Brown, David Cone

ATarwerdi96

11 years ago

Rafael Palmeiro, Kevin Brown, Will Clark

11 years ago

Lofton, Clark, Brown

Doug

11 years ago

Brown, McGriff, Lofton

brp

11 years ago

3Ks: Kenny Lofton, Kirby Puckett, Kevin Brown

Jameson

11 years ago

Reply to brp

I’m with you, Lofton, Puckett, Brown.

MikeD

11 years ago

Palmeiro, Brown, Puckett.

--bill

11 years ago

Brown, Palmeiro, Lofton

David Horwich

11 years ago

So I *must* vote for 3 even if I don’t think there are 3 players worth restoring to the ballot? I think in this kind of vote it’d be better to allow ballots that have less than 3 names. To be concrete: I would vote for Lofton, but that’s really it. I mean, I was a big David Cone fan, & had a lot of respect for McGriff, but I think that both of them fall just a little short of CoG standards. (Similarly Will Clark, and a handful of others – fine players, good careers, but not one of… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

Voting for a favorite plus two non-competitive names is always an available strategy, and I personally would not consider it making a farce of the process. It’s an alternative inherent in the rules. I think one reason it’s not common, and and why it might not be your best strategy is the “lesser of two evils” theory. Just because one doesn’t believe anyone on a presidential election ballot is well-qualified to be president, one may still choose to vote in favor of the least unqualified candidate so as to avoid the worst disaster among potential disasters. On the same theory,… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

Thanks for the response. I see your points, but I would find it odd to vote for someone whom I thought didn’t deserve whatever it was that was being voted on; so I’ll simply abstain this time around.

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to David Horwich

David, the Kenny Lofton Admiration Society clamors for your vote!

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Heh. Based on the early voting, he may not need my help. Has anyone ever considered that Lofton’s trade to Cleveland in the 1991 offseason was some sort of karmic payback for the Bagwell trade the year before? The Bagwell trade is notorious as one of the more lopsided deals in the last few decades, but not much more than a year after that bit of larceny the Astros coughed up Lofton in exchange for a journeyman pitcher (whom they left unprotected in the expansion draft one year later) and a platoon catcher who gave them two seasons worth of… Read more »

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Speaking of karma, how bad would it have been for Lofton if Cleveland had won the ’97 Series over the Marlins? He spends 1992-2001 as an Indian, except for 1997 where he was warming CF up for Andruw Jones in Atlanta.

I’ll go ahead and cast my vote, birtelcom:

Lofton, McGriff, Palmeiro.

It’s more of a shout-out vote to Palmeiro and his career numbers, all of which I don’t consider bogus. I think he’s gotten a bit of a raw deal overall as he’s been painted as one of the worst offenders of steroid use.

MikeD

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

@38, David, do Lofton- and Bagwell-type deals happen as much anymore? The last truly lopsided deal I remember was when the Rangers strip-mined the Braves for Texieria, but at least that involved a quality player. Team still end up on the wrong side of deals, but it seems teams are less likely to deal a quality prospect for a collection of junk. Feels like it used to happen more.

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Houston trading away Kenny Lofton looks bad in retrospect but at the time the trade made sense. They needed a catcher so they could move Biggio to 2nd. The main player they got back was Eddie Taubensee, a 22 year old catcher, coming off a AAA season of .310 with 13 home runs in only 318 PAs. Meanwhile, Lofton was hardly an inspiring prospect. He was already 24, and was coming off a AAA season of .308 with 2 home runs. And while he stole 40 bases he success rate was only 63%. On top of that, the Astros already… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Ed@70 – Well, Lofton was rated the #28 prospect by Baseball America in the 1991-92 offseason, and had posted OBPs of .407 and .367 in his prior 2 minor league seasons (at AA and AAA, respectively), and obviously had excellent speed, even if he hadn’t learned to utilize it to best effect. On the other hand, while Taubensee did post superficially juicy stats in AAA in ’91 (.310/.377/.547), he did that playing in Colorado Springs, a notorious hitters’ haven; prior to that his best slugging percentage in the minors was .429. True, the Astros had a number of young outfielders… Read more »

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

MikeD@64 –

Good question. I don’t have a rigorously fact-based answer, but my impression is that teams are more conservative of their good young players and their cost-controlled seasons these days (the Wil Myers trade notwithstanding – I wouldn’t have made that trade myself, but the Royals did at least get some quality in return).

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

@73 David Horwich –

Hadn’t realized Lofton was rated so highly by BA. That being said, I think Taubensee’s minor league numbers are more impressive than what you’re crediting him with. As a 21 year old in A, his OPS was .772 vs a team average of .706. The following year he jumped to AAA and posted a .924 OPS vs. a team OPS of .815.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Ed @75 –

I didn’t realize Lofton was rated that highly, either; given that he didn’t land a regular job until age 25, I’d have guessed he was a something of an under-the-radar prospect. And perhaps I am underrating Taubensee to some degree; left-handed hitting catchers with some pop are a valuable commodity, to be sure. Still, Colorado Springs…gotta let a lot of air out of those numbers.

I must admit I never thought I’d be having a discussion about Ed Taubensee’s minor league career…

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

@63, bstar,

I agree that Palmiero has gotten more than his share of
burning-bags-of-shit-on-the-porch.

The guy was literally the poster boy for Viagra.
And he had a moustache!

Not like he was hiding his approach to life.

Isn’t honesty the thing we’re supposed to admire?
Or was it integrity?
Wait, no, humility.
Or, ummm, sensitivity…. fudge I dont know, just hit the ball on the sweet spot (or was it the bat that had the sweet spot?).

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

– Kenny Lofton
– Jeff Kent
– Jimmy, I mean Fred McGriff

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

If Jimmy McGriff had brought his Hammond B-3 to ballparks he would have been in the COG for sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udyWWuRinco

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I’m glad that someone got my reference to one of the soul-jazz organ greats of the 60s/70s.

Although -if we want instrumentals in that style with a baseball theme, I’d go with:

King Curtis “Take Me Out to the Ballgame”

I think it’s on the soundtrack to the Ken Burns baeball documentary.

Tom

11 years ago

Lofton, Brown, Palmeiro

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Kenny Lofton
Kevin Brown
Jamie Moyer

Mike G.

11 years ago

Brown, Palmeiro, Lofton

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Mattingly. Puckett. Kent

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

Brown
Lofton
Saberhagen

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Again, I think this part of the exercise is rather silly, and again, I think waiting only ten years before one of the rounds is not nearly long enough. But since I’m here:

Jim Abbott
Curtis Pride
Jeff Blauser

GrandyMan

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

I like the Curtis Pride vote. I remember watching a game on TV when he was with the Yankees — I think it was 2004 — and, after he caught a fly ball to end an inning, one of the announcers said, “He can’t hear the fans cheering for him, but he knows they are because he can feel the vibrations.” I thought it was pretty cool that a deaf (actually, in his case, 95 percent deaf) player had made it to the big leagues, and I know now from going on this site that he is far from the… Read more »

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to GrandyMan

http://www.fitness.gov/meet-our-team/curtis-pride/

Abbott and Pride might not be among the best baseball players ever, but they’re unquestionably in my Circle of Greats. And since none of the guys on these ballots will ever get in to the HHS CoG anyway, why not give my votes to people who I feel are mot deserving of general acclaim? I might as well (along with Blauser, simply because I love the Braves and there was no suitable third choice).

Jason Z

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

I still cannot believe Jim Abbott. Great player, extraordinary person.

I also want to give some props to Pete Gray.

He only played one season in the show, during 1945 when the war decimated rosters.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/graype01.shtml

Please look at his page.

The stats are way below average.

He only struck out 11 times in 253 PA.

Did I mention that he had no right arm??

Jason Z

11 years ago

Reply to Jason Z

The mention of Curtis Pride also brings another thought into the melon above my shoulders. William Ellsworth Hoy. Born in 1862, he contracted meningitis at age three and lost his hearing. Anyone interested can view his stats here… http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hoydu01.shtml Nicknamed Dummy at a time when “dumb” was an accepted term for those who could not speak, he was an outstanding player. He played for several teams including the Reds, who brought him back to throw out the first pitch prior to Game 3 of the 1961 World Series. Aged 99, he was able to see the standing ovation he richly… Read more »

Voomo Zanzibar

11 years ago

Reply to Jason Z

From Pete Gray’s b/r page:

Bats: Left, Throws: Left , Fields: Left as well

Chuck

11 years ago

Reply to GrandyMan

Tyson Gillies, an outfielder in the Phillies system and who will play for Canada in the WBC next month, is also deaf.

topper009

11 years ago

Reply to GrandyMan

So does anyone know if there is any truth to the story that umpires started pointing with their right hand to signify a strike so that a deaf player would know the count?

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Reply to topper009

According to the Charlton Chronology, yes.

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Mike HBC

I have to admit that the first time I saw your vote (when I was fairly quickly scrolling thru the posts so see how the voting was going) it registered as CHARLEY Pride. And even when I realized that it was Curtis and not Charley and knew him from his days with the Tigers I’m a little embarrassed to say that I had forgotten about his being deaf.

Thanks for providing the impetus to read more about him in B-R Bullpen. Great story.

John Z

11 years ago

Just want to throw my 2 cents in the fountain here, I’d personally would prefer a ballot that would eliminate hold overs all together every 10 years. Instead of a ballot that would increase the number of hold overs. For example every 10 rounds/years you take the hold overs and have a separate ballot and whom ever receives the most votes out of those hold overs gets selected to the COG and the others are ousted, never to be seen again. I can only imagine the list that will be generated come the 49′ ballot when I “Will Have” to… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to John Z

If we do that in another 40 or 50 years time we’re going to be voting in guys like Nellie Fox or Joe Medwick while far better players can no longer be considered simply because of when they were born. Ten seems to me to be about the maximum number of players that can survive on the ballot for any length of time. Maybe that number will increase to 12 or 13 for a year or 2 at certain points but I think as a general rule that 10 will be the limit. I also think that in a few… Read more »

Brandon

11 years ago

Kenny Lofton, Kevin Appier, Kevin Brown

Mike L

11 years ago

Lofton, McGriff, and Kent (sorry, Donnie Baseball)

Baltimorechop

11 years ago

Lofton brown palmeiro

Darien

11 years ago

Lofton, McGriff, Kent

latefortheparty

11 years ago

Kevin Brown
Kenny Lofton
Rafael Palmeiro

Brown has better Hall of Stats numbers and overall WAR than Smoltz. Just saying. I’m glad to see Lofton’s getting some love.

Jeff Hill

11 years ago

Kenny Lofton, Jeff Kent, Kirby Puckett.

GrandyMan

11 years ago

Using the “Actual Value” formula I introduced in the 1962 round and refined in the 1959 round, here are the top 7 players: K Brown 95.8 Lofton 94.5 McGwire 90.4 Palmeiro 89.1 Saberhagen 88.9 Cone 88.8 Appier 81.5 Pretty dramatic drop-off after Cone, as you can see. It seems like many here would consider Brown and Lofton to be pretty obvious choices, and my method merely parrots that belief. After that, it gets tricky. I refuse to consider Palmeiro, and McGwire is in that gray area of “guys who used PEDs but didn’t technically cheat, to the best of our… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Using the Hall of Stats and JAWS as starting points, you’re looking for scores just a bit north of 125 for the HOS and 50.0 for JAWS. Lofton & Brown are the only 2 to meet both criteria. Palmeiro comes up a bit short on HOS but just clears the bar on JAWS. That puts him at the very bottom of a very crowded, very tight field of maybe 40 to 50 players competing for the last 20 or so spots in the Circle. We’ve already got at least 4 people that I would put in that group on the… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Expanding my reasoning on Palmeiro a bit to include McGwire, Cone & Saberhagen I don’t really see that any of them have a better argument for inclusion than he does so I’m sticking with my original vote.

RonG

11 years ago

Lofton, Clark, McGriff

Joel

11 years ago

Lofton, Brown, McGwire

Luis Gomez

11 years ago

Hoffman, Palmeiro, Fernando.

Arsen

11 years ago

I just can’t see any of these guys being worthy of the Circle of Greats in the long run. Why put them back on the ballot which already seems crowded. These seem like possible inductees for the Circle of Very Good players which we could do after the Circle of Greats voting is done and before The Circle of Pretty Good voting takes place.

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

11 years ago

Reply to Arsen

We’ve defined the Circle of Greats as the 112 greatest players born before 1969. Kevin Brown is 103rd in total WAR (per b-r) in that group. Among pitchers, he’s 33rd in WAR, 39th in ERA+, 46th in K/BB ratio, and 19th in Win Probability Added.

One could make a reasonable argument that Brown is not among the 112 best eligible players, but he should certainly be on the ballot, where we can compare him to his peers, some of whom will make the CoG with lesser resumes.

Mike HBC

11 years ago

Reply to Bryan O'Connor

He WAS on the ballot. And (almost) nobody voted for him. That’s why he’s here.

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to Arsen

I’d rather that we err on the side of having a few too many candidates on any given ballot, than on the side of eliminating afew too many reasonable candidates. No matter where we set the borders, there will always be disagreement concerning where a number of players fall; i.e., are they “above” or “below” whatever theoretical “in/out” line each of us are using? With an initial limit of 112 players total for the COG project, it isn’t difficult to see “Theoretical Borderline Player, #112” ranked #100-110 by many people, and also ranked #115-125 by others. The actual difference between… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

I would say if anything you’ve actually understated how close it is when you get to the margins. For the Hall of Stats Sandberg ranks 9th at 2nd base with a score of 130, Biggio is 10th with 128 and Alomar is 12th with 126. Raines is 10th in left field with a score of 129 and Gwynn is 12th in right field with a score of 127. Sandberg is a bit further ahead in JAWS- 55.3 vs. 51.9 & 51.3 for Alomar & Biggio. Since JAWS places Rod Carew at 2nd base (HOS has him at first) Alomar and… Read more »

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

A discussion at the Book blog introduced me to the concept of judging a player’s primary position not by playing time or at-bats but by value.

In other words, at which position did Rod Carew provide more value? He started playing first primarily in 1976. Giving all the seasonal WAR to the primary position played that year, I get 39.8 2B WAR for Carew and 36.8 1B WAR. He’s a second baseman.

This method also makes A-Rod a shortstop. And it keeps Paul Molitor at 3B instead of DH.

Lawrence Azrin

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Most people would make the same argument for putting Robin Yount and Ernie Banks at SS. Not really sure _where_ to put Pete Rose (1st; LF; 3rd; 2B; RF – in order of games).

KIllebrew ends up at 1st, though he played plenty of 3rd and LF. Likewise Musial is usually in LF, though he could also be at 1st or in RF.

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

Pete Rose is a really unusual case, and we need to understand it’s unusual because he was so versatile. His best WAR year and only MVP was as a left fielder. Is this because of positional adjustment? NO, it’s because Pete was an exceptional (according to the metrics) defensive left fielder. He posted consecutive years of +12, +20, +20 fielding runs in left. It looks like it comes down to LF vs. 3B as far as value for Rose. Pete played four full years at each position. Here’s the WAR totals: Rose in LF (’67, ’72-’74): 24.9 WAR Rose at… Read more »

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

I also prefer to at least start from that perspective while at least keeping in mind things like for half of his career Ernie Banks was ARod and for the other half he was basically Dan Driessen. I know WAR is supposed to account for that but I still find it helpful to think that way.

koma

11 years ago

Trevor Hoffman, Jamie Moyer, Omar Vizquel

Nick Pain

11 years ago

Rafael Palmeiro, Kevin Brown, Mark McGwire.

Andrew

11 years ago

Kent, Lofton, Hoffman

Fireworks

11 years ago

Hoffman isn’t Mo, but Raines isn’t Henderson either. No one likes Brown or Kent, but no one liked Cobb either.

I’m disappointed that I have to vote for guys with crappy/non-existent nicknames, so I’ll just give them nicknames.

Trevor “Not That ‘The Hoff'” Hoffman, Kevin “What Can Brown Do For You?” Brown, and Jeff “Not As Disliked As Barry Bonds” Kent.

A shout out to the Crime Dog for having the best nickname. Sorry buddy.

J.R. Lebert

11 years ago

Lofton, Kevin Brown, Puckett.

Abbott

11 years ago

Kent, Brown, Hoffman

Editor

Bryan O'Connor

11 years ago

Wins Above Average, excluding negative seasons: Brown 42.6 Lofton 39.5 Cone 39.0 McGwire 38.8 Saberhagen 37.6 Appier 34.3 Palmeiro 33.8 Kent 29.8 Ventura 29.3 Clark 29.2 Olerud 28.1 Puckett 26.7 McGriff 25.5 Vizquel 15.4 Hoffman 15.1 Among this group, only Brown and Lofton are among the 112 leaders in career WAR among players born before 1969. Cone and McGwire miss by less than five wins. I think we have to consider those four and Hoffman, who doesn’t really get an apples-to-apples comparison with WAR/WAA. Apologies to Ventura and Kent, who were arguably among the dozen best players ever at their… Read more »

MichaelPat

11 years ago

McGriff
Kent
Olerud

Lineman

11 years ago

Lofton, Ventura, Cone

Brendan Bingham

11 years ago

Palmiero, McGriff, Lofton

opal611

11 years ago

For Redemption Round #1, I’m voting for: –Rafael Palmeiro -Jeff Kent -Kirby Puckett I like the idea of the redemption rounds and I think it will come in handy in the future. As of now, however, there’s nobody eligible for redemption that I’d consider higher than folks who are currently still on the ballot. Other folks I considered/reconsidered for redemption: -Lofton -Brown -McGwire -Sosa -McGriff -Hoffman (I’m still not sure what to do with a guy like him…hard to compare him to the folks I’ve/we’ve been voting for, but I wish he would have been able to stay on the… Read more »

Hub Kid

11 years ago

Kenny Lofton, Mark McGwire, Bret Saberhagen.

All 3 are players I didn’t get to vote for earlier. I really feel McGwire should get some credit for his confession, as incomplete as it was. If players are treated just as badly after they come clean as before, what incentive is there to come clean? Of course, I know that that is not a stats based argument.