Circle of Greats: 1966 Election

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This post is the spot for voting and discussion of the third round of voting for the Circle of Greats, which adds players born in 1966. Rules and lists are after the jump.

As before, each ballot must include three and only three eligible players. The one player who appears on the most ballots cast in the round is inducted into the Circle of Greats. Players who appear on half or more of the ballots cast win four future rounds of ballot eligibility. A new rule this round: players who appear on 25% or more of the ballots but less than 50%, earn two years of extended eligibility. Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in votes (or who appears on at least 20% of the ballots) wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.

All voting for this round closes at 11:59 PM EST on Friday, January 4, while changes to previously cast ballots are allowed until 11:59 PM EST Wednesday, January 2.

If you’d like to follow the vote tally, and/or check to make sure I’ve recorded your vote correctly, you can see my ballot-counting spreadsheet for this round here: 1966 COG Vote Tally . I’ll be updating the spreadsheet periodically with the latest votes. Initially, there is a row for every voter who has cast a ballot in one or both of the first two rounds, but new voters are entirely welcome — new voters will be added to the spreadsheet as their ballots are submitted. Also initially, there is a column for each of the holdover players; additional player columns from the born-in-1966 group will be added as votes are cast for them.

Choose your three players from the lists below of eligible players:

Holdovers:
Frank Thomas
John Smoltz
Mike Mussina
Roberto Alomar
Kenny Lofton
Trevor Hoffman
Jeff Kent
Omar Vizquel

Position Players (born in 1966, and 10 years in the majors or 20 career WAR, b-ref version):
Sandy Alomar
Moises Alou
Albert Belle
Sean Berry
Scott Brosius
Jerry Browne
Jeff Conine
Darrin Fletcher
Bernard Gilkey
Bill Haselman
Dave Hollins
John Jaha
David Justice
Orlando Merced
Mickey Morandini
Greg Myers
David Segui
Terry Shumpert
Bill Spiers
John Vander Wal
Larry Walker
Mark Whiten
Gerald Williams

Pitchers (born in 1966, and 10 years in the majors or 20 career pitching WAR, b-ref version):
Stan Belinda
Dave Burba
Dave Eiland
Tom Glavine
Eric Gunderson
Juan Guzman
Chris Hammond
Pete Harnisch
Darren Holmes
Greg Maddux
Jack McDowell
Jose Mesa
Alan Mills
Jeff Nelson
Greg Olson
Jim Poole
Mike Remlinger
Armando Reynoso
Mel Rojas
Curt Schilling
Jeff Shaw
Heathcliff Slocumb
Pete Smith
Mike Timlin
Dave Veres
Tim Wakefield
John Wetteland
Woody Williams

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Brandon

11 years ago

Frank Thomas, John Smoltz, and Roberto Alomar

Brandon

11 years ago

Strike that! I failed to look at pitchers list from ’66. Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, John Smoltz

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Once again I vote the straight WAR ticket, if not strictly for that reason:

Greg Maddux, Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina.

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I would have bet money that Walker’s WAR was higher than Mussina or Schilling.

Good for me that I didn’t.

Chuck

11 years ago

Maddux, Glavine, Alomar

Hartvig

11 years ago

I count 9 candidates that I think should move forward.

I vote for Mike Mussina, Kenny Lofton & Curt Schilling.

Maddux should be the clear winner and I suspect that Glavine and Alomar will all draw sufficient support to continue. I’m trusting in my fellow voters understanding of sabermetrics to carry Walker and Thomas and Smoltz are already in.

Apologies to Jeff Kent & Trevor Hoffman but the bar has just been raised.

And a shout out to the Governor just because.

Mike L

11 years ago

Maddux clearly to the head of the line, Thomas and I’m sticking with Mussina.

Artie Z.

11 years ago

My votes: Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Roberto Alomar The most interesting thing about this ballot will be the holdovers – can’t possibly see anyone but Maddux winning. Shout outs to Moose, Schilling, Smoltz, Lofton, and Larry Walker. I can’t shout out to Glavine – the implosion in the last game of 2007 still bothers me. Is it just me or did this seem more difficult with the 1968 ballot? Personally, when I was thinking about voting the first time I was thinking about “HOF standards” and not “top 100” or “top 120” (whatever the number ends up being) standards. It’s… Read more »

Brendan Bingham

11 years ago

Maddux, Smoltz, Lofton.

Doug

11 years ago

Maddux, Thomas, Mussina

Gordon

11 years ago

Maddux, Schilling, Thomas

e pluribus munu

11 years ago

Maddux, Smoltz, Mussina

Dr. Doom

11 years ago

I could be cheeky here and try to fudge the numbers and cast a “strategic” vote, considering that someone could be our first unanimous winner. Nonetheless, that feels against the spirit of the project. So I cast my vote as such:

Greg Maddux
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker

I feel awful leaving off Mussina and Thomas after voting for them in the first two rounds. Oh well.

Mike

11 years ago

Maddux
Thomas
Glavine

This was a tough ballot. I’d like to vote for Smoltz & Walker, but the other 3 are clearly higher up the line. Mussina, Hoffman, Kent & Schilling also deserve consideration.

Andy

11 years ago

Maddux
Thomas
Glavine

Eric

11 years ago

Maddux, Thomas, Glavine.

Nadig

11 years ago

Thomas, Schilling, Maddux

Jeff Harris

11 years ago

Maddux, Thomas, Glavine

aka Jeff H #1

David

11 years ago

Maddox walker kent

Phil

11 years ago

Maddux, Alomar, Thomas. I’m determined to get Alomar in–I think this ends with me voting for Old Hoss Radbourn, John McGraw, and Alomar.

cubbies

11 years ago

maddux, schilling, thomas

GrandyMan

11 years ago

This ain’t a scene, it’s an arms race. Maddux, Smoltz, Mussina.

T-Bone

11 years ago

Frank Thomas, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux.

BryanM

11 years ago

Maddux,Walker, Schilling ; with apologies to Mike Mussina , who loses out on a peak value assessment — the guys I’m leaving off are getting to be either a) really good or b) Jim Poole

MikeD

11 years ago

Maddux, Mussina, Alomar.

I’m not abandoning Alomar!

Tom

11 years ago

Maddux, Mussina, Thomas

koma

11 years ago

Greg Maddux, Curt Schilling, Tom Glavine

koma

11 years ago

hmm, as this election goes on, every player, who is on a single vote stays in for another round. Unless this election ends after the last birth year, EVERY player that last long enough on this list will be in, since in every round one will not longer be elegible(because of induction). So if i want, for example, Tom Glavine to be in the COG, i vote for him until he is in.

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to koma

That’s not quite accurate- ” Any other player in the top 9 (including ties) in votes (or who appears on at least 20% of the ballots) wins one additional round of ballot eligibility.” Only the top 8 players will move on. If Glavine were not in the top 9 one year- which I would think unlikely but I’m not certain how this is all going to unfold- he would be off of the ballot for good. Unless it were decided that a gross injustice had been committed in which case he could be allowed back on at a later date.… Read more »

BryanM

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Hartvig — your post highlights just how high the standards we are imposing are; some really, really good guys are going to be left off. Re the Glavine-Smoltz-Mussina-Schilling thing, it’s fascinating to me to see that you’re right, there is no consensus, even at this early stage. In my mind , Schilling was a step ahead, and Glavine a step behind the other guys ; looking at so many knowledgeable people with a different opinion caused me to go back and look at the record more closely. Schilling’s wonderful ability to avoid unearned runs is still the decider for me,… Read more »

11 years ago

Reply to BryanM

And wait till next year when Kevin Brown joins the group! Hard to see one of them breaking out of the pack and gaining election when you have 5 guys who were all contemporaries and somewhat similar.

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

And the next year Dave Cone followed a year later by Bret Saberhagen… not to mention that Randy Johnson & Roger Clemens are both on the horizon as well. All of them rank in the top 52 of Adam Darowski’s wonderful Hall of Stats Rank WAR WAA Schilling #16 76.1 53.1 Mussina #21 78.2 48.9 Glavine #25 76.8 46.6 Brown #30 63.4 40.0 Smoltz #32 65.9 40.9 Cone #40 58.8 36.3 Sbrhgn #52 56.0 36.8 I left out the adjust WAA & WAR numbers because I would guess some people are unfamiliar with the site plus I don’t entirely understand… Read more »

Michael Sullivan

11 years ago

Reply to Ed

While I think Cone and Saberhagen should maybe go into the hall we have (which has inducted close to 2 players per year), this hall will end up about half the size, and I think both those guys clearlly don’t belong. Brown, Shilling, Mussina, Glavine, Smolz. Those guys should be automatic for the existing hall (though only Glavine and possibly Schilling look like favorites to get voted in by the BBWAA) But they are relatively borderline for the top 100-120 hall, depending on how you divide the positions, and order them. I think some of them won’t make it, and… Read more »

Jim Bouldin

11 years ago

Reply to BryanM

Bryan you are highlighting exactly the problem with using the fraction of the ballots a player appears on as the criterion for determining eligibility extensions. Any year in which there is some sizeable group of players from which it is hard to choose the most deserving ones, the spread of opinion, as expressed in everyone’s votes, reduces the chances that any individual will exceed the 50% (or any other) ballot threshold. This is effectively a penalty on players who played in eras when there were lots of other good players. But other years in which a player similar to them… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to koma

Actually, Koma, both Kevin Appier and Jim Abbott received one vote last round, but there were 9 guys with two votes or more, so Appier and Abbott were dropped. This will happen whenever the cumulating backlog exceeds nine — the bottom guys will drop out unless they have accumulated extra exemptions from past rounds. Also, I do anticipate an end point at which those who have continued to hold over but have been unable to win induction would no longer be able to get in.

koma

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

thats right. I have to admit that i didn´t exactly read the rules for eligibility extension, so i missed the “top-9-rule”.

Nick Pain

11 years ago

Mad Dog, Moose, Big Hurt

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Nick Pain

Was there ever a baseball star with a manner and appearance less appropriate for the nickname Mad Dog than Greg Maddux? Well, except in the sense that you name the fat guy in your class “Tiny”.

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

I think that was part of the joke about Maddux’s nickname. During off-days he looked more like an accountant than a pitcher. But I guess he was a bulldog of a competitor, gotta give him that.

Bill Madlock was nicknamed “Mad Dog” as well.

Hartvig

11 years ago

Reply to bstar

bstr- Even before I had seen your comment Orel “Bulldog” Hershiser had already popped into my head: another player – especially his face- who always brought to mind more of an “annoyed accountant” vibe than determined world-class athlete.

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

In my mind, Hartvig, I link Hershiser to another Braves pitcher: Tom Glavine.

Being a bulldog and refusing to give in, ever, to any hitter, pretty much defined Glavine’s career. I always thought he should have been called “Bulldog” but Hershiser had already taken that moniker when Glavine came along.

Glavine always said he’d rather give up a bases-loaded walk than give in to a hitter in that situation and groove a fastball in a fat part of the zone.

Editor

John Autin

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

bstar @57 — Yeah, but I was thinking of another name starting with “Bull” when Glavs hit Dontrelle Willis on a 1-2 pitch with the sacks full in the last game of 2007, forcing in the 5th run of the opening stanza and bringing an end to the Mets’ season and his own NYM career.

Not that I’m bitter — that’s what we deserved for signing an ATL reject. 🙂

bstar

11 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Oh you crazy, bitter Mets fans. You never forget, do you? 🙂

Nick Pain

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

birtelcom, do you remember his ’87 Donruss rookie card? I could see that guy in a high school shop class being nicknamed Mad Dog.

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Nick Pain

Good point, Nick. He does look a bit of the tall, skinny tough kid in that pic.

11 years ago

Thomas, Maddux, Mussina

I could have just as well voted for Schilling, Smoltz or Glavine, and with Biggio and Brown the best new candidates next election I’ll probably add Schilling or Smoltz

11 years ago

Reply to PP

It appears to me Schilling was clearly better than Glavine, but I can’t stand the guy and he will be tough to vote for

Jim Bouldin

11 years ago

The tally cutoff points are still a problem IMO. If you’re going to base them on percentage of ballots, then applying them only at the 50% and 25% points is just inconsistent. Why not apply them to all four possible extension periods, at 12.5, 25, 37.5 and 50 percent cutoff points? There’s also the question of why to use percentage of ballots cast instead of percentage of the top vote-getter as the comparison metric. That could have some important implications too, and should be discussed.

Atlcrackersfan

11 years ago

Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz

They probably have put Bobby Cox in the HOF, although that’s a different issue!

deal

11 years ago

Mussina Mussina Mussina

Saw it on another comment and it sounds good – since that will likely get booted I will go w/ the following.

Mussina
Smoltz
Maddux

latefortheparty

11 years ago

Greg Maddux
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina

I’m hoping Larry Walker, John Smoltz, Frank Thomas and Kenny Lofton get enough love to stick around.

latefortheparty

11 years ago

Reply to latefortheparty

DOH! This doesn’t affect my vote, but I’m also hoping for Tom Glavine to get his share of the love, too.

David Horwich

11 years ago

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas.

Dr. Remulak

11 years ago

Maddux, Schilling, Mussina

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Although so-called “strategic voting” is now considered acceptable, I’m going to give an initial vote for who I believe to be the 3 most-worthy players on the ballot, and make any strategic changes later. As I’ve explained before, I consider a player to be an HOFer if they have a WAR/162 games of 5.0 or greater during a “peak” of 5+ years, with an attempted WAR adjustment for relief pitchers. (Players with less than 5.5 WAR/162 during this peak are considered “borderline” HOFers unless they have an unusually long peak of 10+ years). This gives 11 would-be HOFers; interestingly, 7… Read more »

Author

birtelcom

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

What is your “162-game” equivalent for starting pitchers like Maddux?

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

It’s established by Baseball-Reference based on each player’s stats (I presume). Go to any player’s page on B-R and specify a stretch of seasons to view the stats for (for Maddux, I used 1988-2002, based on my method for determining “peak” years) and B-R gives total stats, per-season stats, and stats normalized to 162 games. This can be done in the Player Value tables as well.

For Maddux, it is normalized to 35 starts. For Schilling’s peak (2001-06), it is normalized to 32 starts and 5 relief appearances (due to his time as a closer in 2005).

Insert Name Here

11 years ago

Reply to Insert Name Here

And now, as hinted at earlier, a strategic vote change! Since Maddux is apparently destined to win, I’ll throw out my vote for him in favor of Kenny Lofton, who may become the first to be helped by our voter expansion by finishing in 9th place with less than 20% of votes (which it appears is going to be what happens, but I’d like to add my vote to help ensure he stays on the ballot for at least one more year). It’s a shame that it appears that Hoffman and Kent are going to fall by the wayside here,… Read more »

Richard Chester

11 years ago

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas

Andrew

11 years ago

Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz

Gary Bateman

11 years ago

Maddux, Alomar, Mussina

DanFlan

11 years ago

Maddux, Thomas, Smoltz

John Z

11 years ago

This is depressing that the Big Hurt, once again will not garner enough votes to be enshrined into the circle of greats. I will still give Mr. Thomas a vote, but he is no longer my number 1. My vote would look something like this;
Maddux
Thomas
Smoltz
and the first pitcher to be included in the “Circle of Greats”, Mike Maddux little brother, Greg Maddux. You heard it here first.

ATarwerdi96

11 years ago

Maddux, Thomas, Schilling

Michael Sullivan

11 years ago

Maddux Schilling Walker A bit of strategic voting here. I have Walker as borderline but I’m a bit concerned about him getting serious enough consideration. Also — he’s the only position player from 1966 that belongs, IMO. Guys on the ballot that I think belong but didn’t vote for this year: Thomas, Mussina, Glavine Guys on the ballot that I think might be borderline: Roberto Alomar, Kenny Lofton, John Smoltz Walker was the only new position player I thought deserved serious consideration. I think Glavine will get enough other votes to be safe on the ballot for a while. Mussina… Read more »