Sunday game notes – irrelevancy edition

Indians 15, @Royals 4: Deja Vin all over again. The game was still close when Vin Mazzaro entered. Four batters and no outs later, the rout was on. It wasn’t quite a reprise of his last Tribal meeting, but you can’t expect to make history every time out.

  • Indians scored their most runs since that Mazzaro muddle last May
  • KC catcher Adam Moore homered on his first swing of 2012.

D-backs 10, @Rockies 7: Sunday’s WPA Hero was Aaron Hill with a mark of 0.540. He broke a tie in the 8th with a 2-out, 3-run HR on a room-service hanger from Matt Belisle, who’s had a horrid 2nd half. That nudged the Rox towards their 9th straight defeat, their longest slide since 2005, allowing 8.1 R/G and a 2.06 WHIP during the skid.

  • With a .301 BA and .518 slugging, Hill is poised to end Robinson Cano‘s 3-year reign as the only qualified 2B to hit .300 and slug .500. Cano is at .295/.522 this year.

@Braves 2, Phillies 1: Good to see Cliff Lee shake off the dust of that winning streak and get right back on the horse — 8 IP, 11 Ks, no walks, 2 runs, 1 ER, and a loss, as his record falls to 6-8, 3.18.

  • With at most 2 starts left, Lee should at least tie the mark for fewest wins in 200-K season (he has 195 SO) and in a qualifying season of 6+ SO/BB. With 14 decisions in 198 IP, he has a shot at the fewest decisions ever in a 200-IP season, currently shared at 15 by Craig Swan (the 1978 ERA champ) and Joey Hamilton.
  • Tim Hudson got his 197th win in his 405th game. In the live-ball era, only 14 others had as many or more wins in their first 405 games:
Rk Player W ▾ L W-L%
1 Juan Marichal 222 114 .661
2 Tom Seaver 212 119 .640
3 Mike Mussina 208 117 .640
4 Roger Clemens 208 115 .644
5 Whitey Ford 205 79 .722
6 Jim Palmer 204 110 .650
7 Randy Johnson 204 101 .669
8 Greg Maddux 203 117 .634
9 Bob Feller 202 119 .629
10 Andy Pettitte 202 114 .639
11 Carl Hubbell 202 108 .652
12 Bob Gibson 200 127 .612
13 Warren Spahn 198 133 .598
14 Roy Halladay 198 100 .664
15 Tim Hudson 197 103 .657
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used / Generated 9/23/2012.

@Red Sox 2, Orioles 1: Not this time.

  • 19-year-old Dylan Bundy, last year’s #4 over all pick, made his big-league mound debut, getting the last 2 outs of the 8th with a man aboard to keep the game close. Bundy had a brilliant year spread over 3 levels of minors (23 starts, 2.08 ERA), winding up as the youngest player in the AA Eastern League. His first stop, 8 games in the Sally League, was a hoot: 30 IP, 5 hits, 2 walks, 40 Ks, 2 unearned runs.
  • At 19 years and 313 days, Bundy is the youngest hurler in the bigs since Felix Hernandez, who debuted at 19.118. No others under 21 have appeared this year.
  • Say, I remember a feller who used to make plays like this on Baltimore’s hot corner. The defensive metrics are mad about Manny so far.
  • Baltimore’s last 10 games are against TOR (4), BOS and TBR, against whom they’re 28-16. Yanks play MIN, TOR (4) and BOS, 21-12.

Brewers 6, @Nationals 2: Why did Ron Roenicke make that last pitching change? Because when you have a shut-down closer like John Axford, there’s no excuse not to give him a one-out cheese-save.

  • The NL co-leaders in Extra-Base Hits bat #3-4 in the same lineup: Ryan Braun and Aramis Ramirez.
  • Third basemen have combined for seven 50-double seasons. Ramirez needs one more to join the club.

Cardinals 6, @Cubs 3: At 33, Kyle Lohse has set career bests with 205 IP, 134 SO, 16 wins, 2.77 ERA/140 ERA+, 3.62 SO/BB … just in time for free agency!

Padres 6, @Giants 4: Any game in which Yusmeiro pitches against Yasmani and Yonder is all right with me. On the down side, Huston Street came off a 6-week DL stint and immediately lost his 21.1-IP scoreless streak, allowing 3 baserunners — half as many as during the goose-egg run.

  • Congratulations if you had Everth Cabrera leading all shortstops in steals (one ahead of Jose Reyes.) With 37 SB and 3 CS (93%), Cabrera is having one of the most efficient thieving years ever by a SS; only Jimmy Rollins ever had 30 SB with a higher percentage (47/3, 94% in 2008).
  • I think this is the most random two-base, run-scoring wild throw I’ve ever seen. I guess that’s why we don’t see much of the “CF-sneaks-in-behind-the-runner” play.
  • Among the 385 players with 150+ PAs, Yasmani Grandal ranks 11th in BB% (14.4% of PAs), 18th in OBP (.387) and 30th in OPS+ (138). Among the 52 catchers with 150+ PAs, those rankings are 2nd, 5th and 4th.
  • This olé play by Joaquin Arias evokes the eloquence of our heroes Boyd & Harris on the iconic Yankee 3B, Hector Lopez: “his defensive attitude was so cavalier and arbitrary as to hardly constitute an attitude at all.” (Maybe if he’d had some of Panda’s bubble gum….)

 Twins 2, @Tigers 1: Minnesota’s first run exploited two separate Detroit errors. Their second run exploited Jose Valverde. But really, when you’re facing P.J. Walters (6 straight non-QS) and you hold the foes to 2 runs, you have to win if you want to respect yourself in the morning. Detroit scored their only run in the 1st on Miguel Cabrera‘s 40th double. But Prince and Delmon couldn’t bring him in; they didn’t get another man to 2nd base until the 6th (Delmon DP), and that was it for the threats.

  • Pop quiz: What time is it when neither your DH’s HRs nor his BBs exceed his GDPs?
  • For 2011-12 combined, Valverde has a 1.81 ERA in save chances (84.1 IP), and 5.19 in other games (52 IP).
  • In 46 career games, this was just the 2nd time that Al Alburquerque allowed 2 hits. His BA allowed is .133 (24 for 180), with one double.

@Angels 4, White Sox 1: At this point, I sorta hope both AL Central contenders don’t win another game.

  • ChiSox have scored 8 runs during their 5-game slide.

Old news:

The Nationals need 4 more wins to the break Expos/Nats franchise record of 95, and 8 wins in 11 games to reach 100. Of the 3 MLB franchises that have been based in D.C., only one ever reached 100 wins in any city — the 1965 Twins.

Seattle’s six 1-0 wins this year ties the most since 1989, when Cleveland had 7.

True or false?

1. The losing team in Safeco this year has scored 1 run or none more than half the time.

2. Only 2 losing teams in Safeco have scored 5+ runs.

3. The average losing score in Safeco this year is 1.81 runs.

____________________

(#1 is false; through Sunday, the numbers were 37 out of 78. #2 and #3 are true.)

 

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bstar
12 years ago

A Tale Of Two Seasons:

Cliff Lee 6-8, 3.18 ERA, 3.0 Run Support/IP

Tim Hudson 16-6, 3.61 ERA, 5.2 Run Support/IP

See, b, you CAN post a comment devaluing a Brave’s accomplishment.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I see, you’re saying he’s had a lot of bad/meh games to go along with a few really good ones. So the 3.18 ERA looks good but he hasn’t pitched well enough that often to warrant a good W-L record, but perhaps just one with more decisions. Lee’s league-leading SO/BB rate sits at 6.96. If he can slightly improve that mark, he will join this group of pitchers with 2 seasons of a SO/BB over 7: -Greg Maddux 1995,1997 -Pedro Martinez 1999,2000 -Curt Schilling 2001,2002 I’m not sure how telling SO/BB is. And maybe that’s because it makes Curt Schilling… Read more »

BryanM
BryanM
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Bstar let me therefore get off the mark with a different number; Schilling’s ridiculously low unearned runs allowed, particularly after 2000. most pitchers allow .3 to .4 unearned runs/ game; Schillings uncanny ability (or uncanny luck) to not let errors score must be statistically significant over a career as long as 3000 innings, and implies that his ERA+ (for example ) understates his value. I doubt it enhances his HOF chances one iota, since I expect zero voters believe pitchers have influence over unearned runs. (they do)

Ed
Ed
12 years ago

I hereby propose that Vin Mazzaro pitch in every game against the Indians next year. Even if he needs to be released/traded several times a week to make it happen.

nightfly
12 years ago
Reply to  Ed

And yet, his second-highest career game score came against Cleveland on July 4, 2010 – a 66 for one ER on seven hits, a walk, and seven K in 7 1/3 IP. Not bad for the pride of Hackensack, NJ.

I’d say that he’d have his agent lobbying for a move to the NL, except that he’s 1-7 in 11 starts, with a 5.34 ERA and 1.465 WHIP, 22 BB vs. 44 K.

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  nightfly

Mazzaro’s ERA in his last two appearances against the Indians: 65.57. Ouch!

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Not sure he’s good enough to spot his pitches like that. But maybe we could call type of pitch – fastball, curveball, etc. I’d be okay with that. 🙂

Hartvig
Hartvig
12 years ago

Some random notes on irrelevancy- That one outing added almost exactly 3.00 runs to Mazzaro’s ERA for the year I don’t know why I always think of Hudson having lost more time to injuries that he actually has. But that’s some pretty impressive company he keeping on that list and with a little luck here and there he could easily have cracked the top 10. And thanks John for rubbing salt into the festering wound that is Delmon Young. I don’t know how it’s possible but even with being 1 game out of first place with 12 games to play… Read more »

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
12 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

It looks like it may be time to give up on Delmon Young. Seven seasons, 353 6 plate appearances, and a WAR of…1.0. He just turned 27; it’s not going to get much better.

GrandyMan
GrandyMan
12 years ago
Reply to  GrandyMan

*3536 plate appearances

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Maybe Preston Wilson or Jose Guillen?

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  Ed

Good point John. I matched on outfielders with low Rbat, -20 fielding runs or more, and less than 5 total WAR. Guillen fits those overall parameters but how 4 best seasons were far better than anything Young’s done.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Who is the all-time SABR whipping boy? Carter must be up there, Bichette is in the discussion, maybe Garrett Anderson, Lou Brock, Juan Pierre also. If I had to make a lineup:
C: Schalk?
1B: Konerko?, Garvey?
2B: Bill Mazeroski
3B: Pie Traynor
SS: Jeter? at least on D
OF: Joe Carter
OF: Dante Bichette
OF: Garret Anderson
P: Jack Morris

Gordon
Gordon
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Great concept. Jim Rice, andre dawson, alfonzo soriano, rey ordonez!!

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Here are the seasons where a player 1) made the all-star team 2) had a negative WAR 3) had at least 100 RBIs WAR/RBI/Player/Year -2.6 133 Bichette 1999 -2.0 115 Joe Carter 1990 -2.0 101 Ruben Sierra 1993 -1.1 102 Eddie Robinson 1953 -1.1 107 Tony Armas 1983 -1.1 102 Joe Carter 1997 -0.9 100 Joe Pepitone 1963 (Larry David’s favorite player) -0.8 100 Leon Wagner 1964 -0.8 106 Ernie Banks 1969 -0.8 107 Joe Carter 1996 -0.7 105 Del Ennis 1957 -0.6 105 Adam Dunn 2005 -0.6 110 Tony Bautista 2004 -0.5 105 George Bell 1992 -0.5 102 Bill… Read more »

Doug
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

JA,

Pretty tough to come up with an historical equivalent to Delmon.

Look at his top similarity scores (which are pretty high) by age.
21. Tris Speaker (970)
22. Rocco Baldelli (961)
23. Carlos May (954)
24. Carl Yastrzemski (967)
25. Jeff Francoeur (955)

Talk about going from the sublime to the ridiculous (and back to the sublime, then back to the ridiculous).

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Those scores can seem pretty odd sometimes, Speaker had a 134 OPS+ through age 21 and Young posted a 94 OPS+ through the same age

Doug
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Not historical but, to damn with faint praise, Young (.285/.318/.426, 99 OPS+) sure looks a lot like Jeff Francoeur (.267/.310/.425, 94 OPS+).

Young hits for a bit better average but, amazingly, actually walks a bit less than Franceour.

Going back further, Gus Bell (.281/.330/.445, 103 OPS+) has some of the same markers, though Gus certainly brought more power in his prime. Both Bell (-12.7 dWAR) and Young (-7.9) struggled with the leather.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  GrandyMan

With 89 HRs and 1.0 WAR I thought Young may be in small club, but it seems not. Among 3000 PA guys, the largest difference between HR and WAR are
271.0 Dante Bichette “happens” (274 HR, 3.0 WAR)
181.5 Steve Balboni “and cheese sandwich” (181 HR, -0.5 WAR)
167.8 Ty Wigginton “?” (169 HR, 1.2 WAR)
159.0 “Oh” Henry Rodriguez (160 HR, 1.0 WAR)
148.9 Ed Sprague “Doesn’t rhyme with Prague” (152 HR, 3.1 WAR)

Doug
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Don’t forget Deron Johnson, 245 HR and 3.6 WAR, and playing in the 60s and 70s. With his -15.2 dWAR, clearly a player ahead (by about a decade) of his time.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I also missed
210.6 Jose Guillen (214 HR, 3.4 WAR)
197.8 Jeff Conine (214 HR, 16.2 WAR)

There must be other too since the PI only lets you search by percentage of HR to WAR, not raw difference.

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I think you need to put a cap on the overall WAR. Cause guys like Babe Ruth, for example. have a much larger HR/WAR spread than any of the players mentioned so far.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Duh, oops good point Ed, didnt even realize I glossed over all those guys. My initial PI search was players with HR > 88*WAR to see if Young stood out but there were 81 such guys with PA > 3000 so I just listed the top guys by HRs

RJ
RJ
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Dante Bichette “happens” and Ty Wigginton “?” are my new favourite nicknames.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Ty “A Yellow Ribbon” Wigginton? Sorry.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  RJ

Ty “goes to the runner” Wigginton

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago

It has been reported that Josh Hamilton missed five games due to vision problems associated with too much intake of chocolate and energy drinks.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/story/_/id/8421085/texas-rangers-josh-hamilton-back-lineup-oakland-athletics

Timmy Pea
Timmy Pea
12 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

Josh is fighting addiction and probably downs sugars and such to help him. Never heard of that causing vision issues. Guy hohums it to 40 plus HR’s and 130 RBI. Imagine what he could do if he was focused.

MikeD
MikeD
12 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

People with addictions many times replace one addiction with another. Never heard of this one though. Not going to help his free agency case.

Hartvig
Hartvig
12 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

If he’s been taking cortisone for his injuries they can sometimes trigger sugar cravings although usually only at higher doses than you would normally take and you would almost never take them for more than 3 weeks for an acute injury. Cortisone can also screw up your vision both on a temporary and permanent basis depending on what the problem is.

mosc
mosc
12 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

The guy is trying so hard. I have friends and family who are addicts. They don’t hit 40 HR, they have fucked up lives. People need to support Hamilton more and treat it with the respect the disease is due.

Timmy Pea
Timmy Pea
12 years ago

Aramis Ramierez is having a really great year and is a big part of why the Brewers are still init. They don’t miss lazy obese Prince at all.

Timmy Pea
Timmy Pea
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

I didn’t rip him, I just said he was obese and lazy. He’s certainly not worth the big investment. Say JA any truth to the rumors that Ozzie will be managing the Cuban national team next year. Don’t think he’ll be with the Marlins much longer. Viva Fidel!

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  Timmy Pea

Ha. The Brewers have the best offense in the NL easy, most runs, HRs, SBs. And that is including being forced to use Cesar Izturis as the primary SS due to injuries. The main difference is replacing Prince Fielder (4.3 2011 WAR) and Casey McGehee (-1.1) (both with lifetime bans at several Milwaukee area all you can eat buffets) with Ramirez (4.9 2012 WAR) and Nori Aoki (3.3). The SS position has been a wash for them, Yuni put up a healthy -0.8 WAR in 2011, and the 2012 Brewers SS platoon has Alex Gonzalez (0.1), Cesar Izturis (-0.7) Cody… Read more »

brp
brp
12 years ago
Reply to  Timmy Pea

Ramirez, as always, started hitting once the Brewers were almost too far back to matter (yeah, they pushed it close at the end here). He did the same trick every year for the Cubs. Ramirez is one of the most talented natural hitters I’ve ever seen, but I’d be hard pressed to name a player who seemed to care less.

The Cubs 3B position has been a wretched black hole this year but I don’t think you’d find many Cubs fans who miss him one bit.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  brp

Just false, Ramirez had a slow 2 weeks to start the season, but since has been outstanding. Not wanting Ramirez’s at 3B for you this season is baseless, similar to Yankee fans acting like none of the 302 HRs ARod has hit for them has ever actually effected the outcome of a game.

Ramirez 2012
Games 1-15 .151/.220/.245
Games 16-127 .314/.376/.567

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Good point, I did not look into it that much, but his monthly splits are only bad for April

0.645 April
0.848 May
0.896 June
1.017 July
1.007 August
0.932 Sept

Timmy Pea
Timmy Pea
12 years ago
Reply to  brp

I kind of agree with you BRP, Aramis would plod along and then all of sudden get hotter than the hubs of hell for 2 weeks and that pretty much made his numbers for the season. This year though he has played better over a longer stretch.

mosc
mosc
12 years ago
Reply to  Timmy Pea

There are so many players like that though. Guys hit .600 for 2 weeks and .250 for the rest of the year all the time. It’s not a consistent sport. That’s why DiMaggio’s record is so safe.

bstar
12 years ago

Al Albuquerque….who knew? I certainly didn’t, I’ve never heard of the guy. Strange that a guy can be that dominant from a BA against standpoint in the bigs (SSS notwithstanding) but can have a career minor league WHIP near 1.45.

RJ
RJ
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Ah, you clearly didn’t read this piece: http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12037

I’ve been part of the Al Alburquerque [sic] fan club ever since.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  RJ

JA touting Alburquerque’s season last year sounds eerily similar to me talking about Craig Kimbrel this season. A.A. was chasing the same Eric Gagne 2003 records last year that Kimbrel is set to break if he can stay on pace for another 10 days. Thnx for the link.

RJ
RJ
12 years ago

Panda should get a five-game ban for the disrespect he showed the Padres on that play.

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Isn’t it a bit odd that we’re this late in the season and none of the 4 major awards have been decided. Seems like normally, by this time of the year, at least a few of them are “sewn up”.

mosc
mosc
12 years ago
Reply to  Ed

It has to average out the indecisiveness that comes from the AL ROY race. It’s so unbelievably definite that everything else has to be close.

Jim Bouldin
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

Adam Dunn, that SOB, 3 run bomb off Pestano in bottom of 8th for the W to keep Sox in first.

I heard Tom Hamilton call it on Tribe radio and seriously you would have thought the Indians had just won the World Series.

Jim Bouldin
12 years ago

Wow, that was indeed Brooks caliber play there by Machado.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago

Non baseball comment:
To those who naively think instant replay is so great and every play could in theory be easily reviewed in 30 seconds and not extend the game at all and just make every better….were you watching Monday Night Football?

What is the point of instant replay if you can’t even correct obvious mistakes? Sure you could set a system that in theory would be perfect but in the real world it gets complicated and ends up not even improving the game and wasting time.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

The NFL does not care about player safety, they care about the public perception that they care about player safety, and the marketability of big time QBs. If they really cared about player safety they would, um, crack down on steroids. The players in the NFL are barely human, all with more muscle on their frames than their body can support, resulting in many injuries. These 300+ pound guys who can bench press 600+ pounds are ridiculous, but the NFL does not care about those guys destroying each other. Instead they ruin the game by calling pahtetic penalties any time… Read more »

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  John Autin

The Packers scored a TD on that possession anyways, there was another review that added 6 inches to a Rodgers scramble to extend the drive, but the packers scored on the next play from the 1. That review helped them but I still don’t really like all these reviews over 6 inches. And when it really mattered they screwed up a completely obvious call, including the most obvious offensive pass interference in the history of football. Im not sure about the player safety issue with regard to these refs, it seems the public just thinks they are having too big… Read more »

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

You don’t write any rules, just say the referee has the authority to make any decision he wants on review if there is clear evidence something on the field was incorrect. Maybe say something like you lose all your timeouts if you get 1 challenge wrong to keep the coaches from wasting time. Similar to the supreme court, there are no rules, it is up to them to determine if something is constitutional or not. Whatever that means no one can precisely define. This would only work when things are 100% obvious, if there is any question at all the… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

The entire breakdown is totally unnecessary. Scab refs trying to ref games that are just too fast for them to see, under too much pressure. All for the sake of a very small amount of industry money that makes a fortune, and the opportunity for the NFL to send a not too subtle message to the union that it’s “refs now, players later, the league’s in charge.” Are we going to be ok when an obvious, un-called cheap shot puts a star player(s) out for the season?

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Calling a cheap shot a penalty does not undo it, the same result would occur with the regular refs except for maybe a 15 yard penalty added.

This always bothered me when I reffed soccer, a violent foul would occur and the parents and team would get all outraged and mad at me even though I called the foul, like what do you want me to do proactively go tackle the player so he cant injure your player with a cheap shot?

Dan McCloskey
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

I’m at a loss as to why that ruling couldn’t be determined by replay as well. I understand some plays that aren’t reviewable, because there are plays where a camera angle can’t possibly be better than what the official saw (the FG above the upright is a good example), and there are mistakes that simply can’t be corrected by replay (if the whistle is blown and it’s subsequently determined that the player fumbled), but I don’t know that last night’s call falls into either category. Any system that MLB develops has to take these things into consideration as well, so… Read more »

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  Dan McCloskey

You don’t need to apologize for being a Bud Selig defender.

And why couldn’t they just rule offensive pass interference and not even touch the whole catch thing? O wait that is not reviewable…again, why? Anyone who thinks these types of things wouldn’t happen in baseball are being naive.

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

I’m confused. I thought the play was reviewed. I didn’t watch it live but the Youtube video I saw this morning included a review saying the play would stand as called. (which is bizarre since the Packer’s player clearly had possession).

So Topper and Dan…are you saying it wasn’t reviewed?

Dan McCloskey
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

@Ed, it was reviewed, but the only thing they were allowed to determine on review was whether or not the Seattle receiver caught the ball. The rules don’t allow them to make the determination regarding whether or not the Green Bay defender actually caught it first and, therefore, should be granted possession. At least that was my understanding.

Dan McCloskey
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

I can definitely understand a rule that says you can’t make penalty determinations via replay review. That could get out of hand.

The best baseball equivalent I can think of, although much less common, would be looking at balk calls via replay. I’m sure MLB won’t go there.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

It was ruled Seattle catch on the field, the ONLY thing to review was whether or not the Seattle player, Tate, was in bounds and completed the “catch” They could not declare Tate pushed Sam Shield in the back because …. o yeah there is no reason they should not be able to do that. And they could not declare the Packer DB who caught the ball, MD Jennings, caught the ball because… o yeah there is no reason they should not be able to do that. The point of replay should simply be to reverse obvious, blatantly wrong calls… Read more »

Ed
Ed
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Topper and Dan – Thanks for the info. That makes things a bit clearer. Though I’m still a bit stunned that a replay official could watch the video and decide that Tate had possession. When it seems pretty obvious that he didn’t.

Doug
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

I just heard the end of the game on radio with the local Seattle radio crew. They were talking about a simultaneous catch going to the receiver by rule. That, and the fact that Tate came out of the pile with the ball.

Some hometown bias, evidently.

Dan McCloskey
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

: a simultaneous catch goes to the offensive player, but when a defensive player possesses it first, that’s not a simultaneous catch. Listen to the explanation at about the 3:00 mark of this video:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=320924026

Are we going to be chastised by Andy for discussion football here? I’ve tried to couch most of my comments in terms of what it would mean to baseball in terms of instant replay. 🙂

Doug
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

After seeing the replay, it sure looks like the defensive player had more of the ball. That is, he had his hands and his arms around the ball whereas the receiver was just reaching in with just his hands. But, it does seem they both had their hands on it initially, on the jump. So, maybe that initial simultaneous catch was the interpretation when the video was reviewed. If so, the NFL may need to tweak the wording of the rule, which currently doesn’t speak to the “degree of control” – just that the catch goes to the receiver if… Read more »

Dan McCloskey
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

If anybody still cares, here’s the NFL’s statement which includes the following: “The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball.” http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066164/article/nfl-supports-decision-to-not-overturn-seahawks-touchdown?module=HP11_breaking_news It seems to me that it’s closer to a simultaneous catch that I initially thought, because, while the defender grabs the ball out of the air first, he doesn’t possess the ball until his feet hit the ground, and his feet reach the ground last. Still, it appears the defender had more secure possession of the ball than the receiver, if that counts for anything.… Read more »

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Jennings had the ball pressed against his chest, Tate just had his hand touching the ball. That like says if you sack the QB and touch the ball as you bring him down but he is cradling the ball against his body you now have simultaneous possession of the ball. The ball landed on both of Jenning’s hands and 0 of Tate’s hands. Tate just touched the ball after Jennings had it. But I will concede that part is slightly controversial, my real point is this “While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay… Read more »

Jim Bouldin
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

I went to a football discussion and/or assertion board and damned if a baseball discussion didn’t break out.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

Professional wrestling effectively mocked the NFL last night in their live show, even using the NFL logo while berating a scab referee:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rc2qcn5n9Q

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

If you have no patience for such entertainment, the relevant moments are from 2:00 to 3:00

tag
tag
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

I’ll try to bring the case back to baseball by saying that if you think the MLB rule book is vague, which was just recently discussed in the balk post, get a gander at the football rule book. Among the many things I’ve done over here in Europe is coach (at a very low professional level) football. No matter how many times I read those rules and the interpretations of them, there were still things I couldn’t suss out. There is nothing in the simultaneous catch rule about degree of control. If both the offensive and defensive player touch and… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  topper009

The rule regarding this play states that while a simultaneous possession catch is given to the offensive player, a player who does not have initial possession of the ball cannot during the ensuing scrum attain simultaneous possession. It’s beyond obvious Tate did not initially co-possess the ball.

Doug
Editor
12 years ago

With Bundy and Machado, the Orioles are the first team since the 1989 Rangers (Juan Gonzalez and Wilson Alvarez) with two players in their age 19 season or younger. The Orioles also have a forty-something player (Thome) as did those Rangers (Charlie Hough, Nolan Ryan).

Jim Bouldin
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

I’d like to know the last team before these Sox to have brothers playing together.

Doug
Doug
12 years ago
Reply to  Jim Bouldin

Prior to the Danks brothers, here are some recent brother possibilities. – Gonzalez, Adrian & Edgar – Padres 2008-09 – Giles, Marcus & Brian – Padres 2007 – Molina, Bengie & Jose – Angels 2001-05 – Drew, J.D. & Tim – Braves 2004 – Alomar, Roberto & Sandy – White Sox 2003-04, Indians 1999-2000, Padres 1988-89 – Glavine, Tom & Mike – Mets 2003 – Giambi, Jason & Jeremy – Athletics 2000-01 – Martinez, Pedro & Ramon – Red Sox 1999-2000, Dodgers 1992-93 – Guerrero, Vlad & Wilton – Expos 1998-2000, 2002 – Boone, Aaron & Bret – Reds 1997-98… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

The most recent coupling has to be the Hairston boys, Jerry and Scott, on the 2010 Padres.

FPS
FPS
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Is San Diego the new City of Brotherly Love? 5 sets of brothers since 1989!

Jim Bouldin
12 years ago

Speaking of irrelevant…

Last night in the Cubs-Rockies game, the Cubs announcer said there were probably no more than 3-4 thousand fans in the stands, tops. Checking the official box score however, I find the attendance instead to have been 26,660. Just a minor discrepancy of course. I mean inserting an extra “6” into any particular number is a fairly common occurrence isn’t it?

In addition to the stellar matchup, these 26,660 fans were treated to 54 degree weather and light rain which very unfortunately resulted in a game termination in the top of the 7th.

Jim Bouldin
12 years ago
Reply to  Jim Bouldin

Undoubtedly many of these folks were there to see Darwin Barney get within two games of the MLB record for consecutive errorless games by a 2nd baseman…

The throng of humanity is clearly evident in this clip:
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=col&content_id=25060749&topic_id=8878968