Derek Jeter’s 2012 is not unusual…it was his 2010-11 that was

Derek Jeter / USPRESSWIRE

Yesterday, I put up some data showing that few players have ever hit as well as Derek Jeter has in his Age 38 season after hitting so poorly in their Ages 36-37 seasons.

Now I’m going to show you why that set of data was so misleading.

The issue here is not that Jeter’s 2012 is so good–it’s that his 2010-2011 were so bad, making his 2012 seem like a massive resurgence.

But let’s start from the other side. Here are the 20 guys since 1901 to post a 119, 120, or 121 OPS+ over their Ages 32-35 seasons, minimum 2000 PAs.

Rk Player OPS+ PA From To G AB R HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 John Olerud 121 2481 2001 2004 592 2089 285 62 328 .284 .386 .436 .821 *3/D SEA-TOT
2 David Justice 121 2200 1998 2001 536 1874 316 101 345 .275 .373 .497 .870 *D7/98 CLE-TOT-NYY
3 Ron Cey 121 2274 1980 1983 551 2000 258 89 296 .266 .342 .451 .793 *5 LAD-CHC
4 Tony Perez 121 2460 1974 1977 588 2193 303 86 392 .272 .340 .460 .800 *3 CIN-MON
5 Mickey Vernon 121 2436 1950 1953 565 2140 296 43 357 .292 .373 .438 .811 *3 TOT-WSH
6 Torii Hunter 120 2409 2008 2011 573 2155 315 89 340 .279 .349 .465 .814 *89/D LAA
7 Derek Jeter 120 2813 2006 2009 613 2492 415 55 305 .325 .394 .453 .847 *6/D NYY
8 Fred McGriff 120 2601 1996 1999 606 2274 306 101 389 .291 .374 .482 .856 *3/D ATL-TBD
9 Pedro Guerrero 120 2113 1988 1991 516 1859 183 48 332 .289 .357 .425 .782 *3/579 TOT-STL
10 Eddie Stanky 120 2287 1948 1951 502 1795 342 25 165 .283 .431 .385 .815 *4 BSN-NYG
11 Joe Gordon 120 2322 1947 1950 566 2021 318 100 358 .262 .354 .463 .817 *4/6 CLE
12 Johnny Moore 120 2037 1934 1937 505 1879 288 55 318 .326 .372 .487 .859 *97/8 TOT-PHI
13 Harry Hooper 120 2476 1920 1923 544 2133 363 36 256 .306 .390 .446 .837 *9/7 BOS-CHW
14 Jimmy Collins 120 2287 1902 1905 525 2108 310 18 265 .289 .329 .411 .740 *5 BOS
15 Bobby Abreu 119 2736 2006 2009 622 2325 417 66 411 .292 .388 .453 .842 *9/D78 TOT-NYY-LAA
16 Raul Ibanez 119 2549 2004 2007 593 2294 342 90 379 .290 .353 .476 .830 *7D/39 SEA
17 Mike Easler 119 2251 1983 1986 572 2040 266 67 297 .295 .353 .457 .810 *D7/39 PIT-BOS-NYY
18 Eddie Joost 119 2578 1948 1951 550 2063 413 76 272 .260 .402 .425 .827 *6 PHA
19 Frank McCormick 119 2337 1943 1946 566 2137 255 49 308 .292 .349 .420 .769 *3 CIN-PHI
20 Max Carey 119 2734 1922 1925 590 2380 482 29 232 .319 .395 .454 .849 *8/7 PIT
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 8/24/2012.

This is a nice list, filled with guys who often come to mind when thinking of late-career stalwarts. The group is nicely distributed over time, with half the players coming after 1980 and half before.

“But”, I bet you’re thinking, “these guys all fell off a lot in their Age 36-37 seasons, just like Jeter.”

Well, let’s see.

Rk Player OPS+ From To G PA R HR RBI BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Mickey Vernon 133 1954 1955 301 1301 164 34 182 .295 .370 .473 .843 *3 WSH
2 Raul Ibanez 128 2008 2009 296 1272 178 57 203 .284 .353 .511 .864 *7/D SEA-PHI
3 Fred McGriff 126 2000 2001 304 1250 149 58 208 .291 .379 .496 .875 *3/D TBD-TOT
4 Torii Hunter 120 2012 2012 103 422 57 12 59 .295 .344 .433 .778 /*9D LAA
5 Eddie Joost 116 1952 1953 197 893 133 26 90 .245 .391 .407 .799 *6 PHA
6 Jimmy Collins 113 1906 1907 177 727 68 1 61 .277 .324 .349 .673 *5 BOS-TOT
7 Bobby Abreu 112 2010 2011 296 1252 142 28 138 .254 .353 .402 .754 D9/7 LAA
8 Tony Perez 112 1978 1979 280 1127 121 27 151 .281 .329 .438 .767 *3 MON
9 Harry Hooper 112 1924 1925 257 1079 169 16 117 .297 .383 .432 .816 *9 CHW
10 David Justice 111 2002 2002 118 471 54 11 49 .266 .376 .410 .785 /7D9 OAK
11 John Olerud 106 2005 2005 87 192 18 7 37 .289 .344 .451 .795 /*3 BOS
12 Frank McCormick 106 1947 1948 171 462 45 7 85 .299 .336 .433 .768 *3 TOT-BSN
13 Ron Cey 100 1984 1985 291 1144 135 47 160 .236 .320 .425 .745 *5 CHC
14 Derek Jeter 93 2010 2011 288 1346 195 16 128 .282 .347 .378 .725 *6/D NYY
15 Mike Easler 86 1987 1987 98 301 20 5 31 .282 .329 .372 .701 /7D9 TOT
16 Eddie Stanky 82 1952 1953 70 145 18 0 8 .239 .381 .274 .656 /4 STL
17 Max Carey 76 1926 1927 257 1106 134 1 89 .251 .323 .336 .659 *89/7 TOT-BRO
18 Pedro Guerrero 63 1992 1992 43 159 10 1 16 .219 .270 .295 .565 /*37 STL
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 8/24/2012.

So, not really. Two guys–Joe Gordon and Johnny Moore–didn’t play MLB in their Age 36-37 seasons. A few others, such as John Olerud and Eddie Stanky, didn’t play MUCH in those years.

But a number of players, particularly Vernon, Ibanez, and McGriff, played full time and played really well in those years. Even Bobby Abreu and Tony Perez played a lot and were well above average. Ron Cey was starting to wind down but was still average.

Then there’s Jeter, near the bottom and grouped largely with players who weren’t good enough to hold down jobs anymore. If he’d played 50 or more years earlier, Jeter might have lost his job at that time (but today’s lucrative show contracts ensure that he’ll stay in the limelight as long as possible.)

I think Jeter’s poor performance over 2010-2011 is due largely to injuries as well as pressure to reach 3,000 hits. As has been noted before, his performance after reaching that milestone suddenly jumped into the stratosphere.

The bottom line is that his 2012 is quite consistent with his career. It’s his 2010-2011 that sticks out as the aberration.

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wlcmlc
wlcmlc
12 years ago

AVG / OBP / SLG

.270 / .340 / .370 2010 (157 games)
.260 / .324 / .324 2011 pre injury (62 games)
.331 / .384 / .447 2011 post injury (69 games)
.324 / .364 / .450 2012 (122 games)

I could see how this increase could cause some speculation. But then again I am not known for being a fan of Jeter’s.

wlcmlc

deal
12 years ago

not sure what this means but, Jeter Joost and Stanky only MI on the 2nd list. All comps from my division era fwd are LF/RF/3B/1b

Didn’t realize till this moment that T Hunter was having such a good yr.

Hartvig
Hartvig
12 years ago
Reply to  deal

I did not realize until your post got me curious enough to check it out that the Hunter signing had actually worked out as well as it had for the Angels. I know at the time that they signed Hunter I felt that they were overpaying- not like Vernon Wells or Barry Zito overpaying, but overpaying nonetheless. After all, they bought when his offensive performance was at it’s absolute peak and, I believe, paid for a defensive reputation that was no longer warranted. He’s proved me wrong however, by maintaining that offensive production while transitioning to right field. Overall, it… Read more »

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
12 years ago
Reply to  Hartvig

I still have trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that Hunter is 37 years old, probably because he didn’t really come into prominence until his age 25 year, and especially when he made his ASG catch in 2002 in his age 26 year. Granted, he’s not the same defensive player he was 8 or 10 years ago, but he’s still very good. What stands out to me is the level of consistency he’s achieved. It’ll be interesting to see how he fares in free agency this winter. Will someone give him a 3 year deal for 8-10 mil a… Read more »

Fireworks
Fireworks
12 years ago
Reply to  Brooklyn Mick

Hunter has already indicated that he’s willing to take a cut to stay in Anaheim.

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
12 years ago
Reply to  Fireworks

Quote from an article published Friday 3/31/12 by Rob Bradford, Boston area columnist currently employed by WEEI Sports Radio. The 37-year-old outfielder (Hunter) said he wouldn’t be averse to joining the Red Sox as a free agent this offseason. Hunter, who is in the final season of a five-year, $90 million deal, cited his relationship with former Minnesota teammate David Ortiz as a chief reason he would consider playing in Boston. “I’m open to anybody, especially if David is there,” said Hunter, who is making $18 million in ’12. “David is one of my guys. We were roommates in Minnesota… Read more »

Doug
Doug
12 years ago

I still think this is the aberration year for Jeter. Bill James called it a “last hurrah” season when a great player starts his decline, then has one final outstanding season, usually at age 37 or 38. Think Bob Johnson in 1944, Ted Williams in 1957, Joe Morgan in 1982, all at age 38.

Not saying Jeter won’t have another strong season next year, but odds are it will look more like 2010 or 2011 than this year.

BryanM
BryanM
12 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Andy , i don’t think the concept of the “last Hurrah ” season has anything to do with “will” ; but rather that a player’s performance in any season can be viewed as Skill+Luck; now skill declines every year from the mid-30s on ( actually starts earlier , but to simplify..) whereas luck bounces back and forth When a player who been good over a long period has bad luck in his late 30’s , he will get a second chance, whereas the journeyman is just gone; It is quite possible for good luck to overcome natural decline and give… Read more »

mosc
mosc
12 years ago
Reply to  Andy

50% maybe, but a huge chunk of that is due to a far higher injury risk than a younger player and almost zero ability to bounce back from a major injury. If healthy, the odds are far better Jeter will perform well next year. He’s also been an incredibly healthy player over the course of his career which bodes well. I would not bet against him hitting 300 in 2013.

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
12 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Let’s not forget Paul Molitor’s surge from age 38 to 39. He went from a .270 BA, 101 OPS+ and 142 hits to a .341 BA, 116 OPS+ and 225 hits. His combined ages 40 and 41 seasons were not bad totaling 305 hits, .293 BA and about 95 OPS+.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago

Have you guys heard Jeter speak about aging?

He has one of the healthiest and most positive perspectives you will ever hear. Attitude and lifestyle play a huge role in a person’s well being.

He has also never had a major injury, and, perhaps most importantly, he is NOT a father, so his sense of immortality may be un-usually intact.

I would not doubt him.

MikeD
MikeD
12 years ago
Reply to  Andy

Immortal? If Jeter turns out to be an immortal, well that’s really gonna piss a whole bunch of people!

Phil Gaskill
Phil Gaskill
12 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

> He has also never had a major injury

Separated shoulder on opening day 2003 that cost him 35-40 games wasn’t major? Or does “major injury” imply a full season or something? Asking seriously here; I dunno where to draw the line.

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
12 years ago
Reply to  Phil Gaskill

Phil, I remember the play like it was yesterday. Jeter slid into 3rd at the same time the Toronto catcher, who was covering, got to the bag knees first. It was like two players sliding into one another, but one coming in head first and the other coming in knees first with chin guards. Jeter would miss 36 games but come back to hit .324 with a 125 OPS+ on the year. His injury, once healed, didn’t affect his future performance. Therefore, in my opinion, and this is strictly my opinion, I wouldn’t consider it a “major” injury. When I… Read more »

Phil Gaskill
Phil Gaskill
12 years ago
Reply to  Brooklyn Mick

Yeah, we both remember it like it was yesterday. In fact, your memory is just a bit more detailed than mine!

*Shin* guards, Mick, *shin* guards. 😉

So, anyway, given your definitions of “major” injuries, I have to agree: this one was certainly scary-looking from the git-go, but it turned out to have no long-term ill effects. So you’re right: not Major.

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
12 years ago
Reply to  Phil Gaskill

LOL Phil! Yes, *shin* and not chin guards.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago
Reply to  Phil Gaskill

Yes, I thought of that one when I typed it, and Jeter would probably disagree that it wasn’t a major injury… I was referring to the type of injury that lingers and affects performance over a longer period of time. And maybe it is simply a testament to Jeter’s physique and determination that he returned effectively from that one so quickly.

But I mean an injury with a LONG lay-up time. Where your mind has the time to start wondering if your best days are behind you…

Pat O'Dougherty
Pat O'Dougherty
12 years ago

A few weeks ago, it was pointed out that Jeter joined Aaron in the 17-consecutive season 150 hit club. As one who prefers records to clubs, I looked up the stats for both and did see that Jeter now holds the @min record for hits in 17 consecutive season with 156. I began trolling the stats of the usual suspects to see who holds the @min record for hits in 18 consecutive seasons, and so far it looks like its Tris Speaker with 146 hits. If it is Speaker, than he also has the record for 19 consecutive seasons since… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago

I think a lot of us misread Jeter. He’s so often spoken of as overrated, and he’s so undemonstrative, that we take his cool for detachment. He’s not at all detached-he’s like a few other athletes-powerfully driven to achieve. There will be a point (we are approaching it) where he won’t be able to overcome age-related declines with just will power and work ethic. I think it was interesting how vehemently denied wanting to be a manager. My guess is he won’t go out with a completely bad year, just one the convinces him he can’t perform at a level… Read more »

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

The BR PI confirms that Speaker is the only player to amass 146 or more hits in 19 seasons, consecutive or otherwise.

Pat O'Dougherty
Pat O'Dougherty
12 years ago

Just to be sure on this, does the BR PI confirm that Speaker is the ONLY player to amass 146 or more hits in 18 consecutive seasons?

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago

Rose had at least
139 for 20 years

121 for 21

107 for 23

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
12 years ago

Speaker had 19 seasons of more than 146 hits, all in consecutive years. Rose and Cobb had more than 146 hits for 18 seasons. Rose did it for 16 consecutive years and Cobb for 7.

Kent
Kent
12 years ago

Let’s not forget Ichiro, who after this year will have at least 141 hits in his 19 full consecutive pro seasons (his first two pro seasons, 1992-1993, he played mostly in Japan minors)….and the only reason his minimum hit number is 141 is because Ichiro got injured in 1999 when he played for the Orix BlueWave, if one wants to count NPB, otherwise his minimum hit number would be 153 due to his 2000 NPB season when he also suffered an injury. With respect to Jeter, he actually had a very good second half of 2011, so his bad season(s)… Read more »

MikeD
MikeD
12 years ago
Reply to  Kent

As I noted in Andy’s initial Jeter thread, Jeter’s poorer showings in 2010-2011 can be confined to a period a little more than one year. It just so happened that one year impacted the batting lines of two seasons, illustrating how arbitrary start and end points can greatly color perception. He started out 2010 strongly, peaking on May 2nd at .333, and then slumped for the next 2 1/2 weeks, before finishing the month strong, hitting .442 over just a little less than two weeks, bringing his seasonal line back up to .307/.354/.436 at close of play on June 1.… Read more »

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
12 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

Well stated Mike.

Brooklyn Mick
Brooklyn Mick
12 years ago

Since Skip Bayless’s groundless comments and Andy’s first post on Jeter, Cabrera’s BA had gone from .326 to .324 while Jeter’s has gone from .324 to .326. Meanwhile, Trout’s BA has dropped from .345 to .338. Trout has been spectacular this year — no doubt about it, but the fact is that he hit .182 last Sept/Oct. Does that mean I think he’ll hit .182 again this September? Certainly not, but for me it bears watching. Jeter, on the other hand, is a career .324 hitter in Sept/Oct, while Cabrera stands at .305 in Sept/Oct career-wise. Leave it Jeter to… Read more »

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