Can Derek Catch Honus?

 

Barring injury, Derek Jeter will this season likely pass Cal Ripken and Robin Yount to become the all-time career Hits leader among AL shortstops. Which means, of course, that he will then trail only Honus Wagner, the NL leader. So, will he catch Honus?

Jeter needs 333 more hits to pass Wagner. Favorite Toy gives Derek only about a 30% chance of doing that. But, that’s based on only 1.5 more seasons, the maximum that Favorite Toy gives to anyone older than 37. My hunch is Derek will last longer than that. But, let’s see if we can find some evidence to support my hunch.

I looked at players aged 34 to 37 who compiled at least 600 hits while playing at least half the time at shortstop. It’s a short list.

Rk Player H From To Age G PA BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Derek Jeter 732 2008 2011 34-37 591 2730 .300 .366 .408 .774 *6/D NYY
2 Honus Wagner 705 1908 1911 34-37 568 2430 .337 .412 .492 .904 *6/3487 PIT
3 Miguel Tejada 626 2008 2011 34-37 563 2364 .281 .315 .404 .718 *65/4D HOU-TOT-SFG
4 Al Dark 621 1956 1959 34-37 556 2406 .281 .327 .374 .701 *65/3 TOT-STL-CHC
5 Luis Aparicio 619 1968 1971 34-37 584 2502 .273 .329 .352 .681 *6 CHW-BOS
6 Pee Wee Reese 616 1953 1956 34-37 573 2586 .280 .368 .405 .773 *6/5 BRO
7 Ozzie Smith 602 1989 1992 34-37 580 2487 .277 .353 .345 .698 *6 STL
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 3/10/2012.

Jeter is clearly superior in offense to all the comps except Wagner. Notice, though, how similar Reese’s and Jeter’s OBP and SLG numbers are. But, a longer schedule and a 20 point edge in BA translated into about 30 more hits a season for Jeter.

Of course, Jeter and Tejada are no help in projecting what might happen after age 37. But, how did the other guys do?

Rk Player H From To Age G PA BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Honus Wagner 784 1912 1917 38-43 762 3077 .285 .347 .393 .739 *6/354 PIT
2 Ozzie Smith 352 1993 1996 38-41 365 1479 .269 .331 .343 .674 *6 STL
3 Luis Aparicio 247 1972 1973 38-39 242 1035 .264 .312 .328 .641 *6 BOS
4 Pee Wee Reese 107 1957 1958 38-39 162 559 .224 .316 .289 .606 /*56 BRO-LAD
5 Al Dark 90 1960 1960 38-38 105 373 .265 .321 .351 .672 /*5734 TOT
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 3/10/2012.

Wagner continued to perform solidly, averaging about 130 hits for six more seasons. Ozzie managed 4 more seasons, but only one as a regular. He contributed 5.2 WAR over those seasons including 2 dWAR.

Reese and Aparicio had parts of only two seasons remaining, and Dark part of only one season. Reese’s offense really cratered, and Dark had only a minuscule 0.2 WAR while playing mostly in the outfield his final year, so their early exits are not surprising. Aparicio put up a solid 2.3 WAR in his final season, so his release by the Red Sox is more of a mystery. His SABR Bio says Aparicio had an open offer to join the Yankees but declined, telling Steinbrenner that being released once was enough for him.

As an aside, Aparacio and Smith are among a select group to play only one position their entire careers. Excepting his turns at DH, Jeter has done the same.

What if we expand the search beyond shortstops? I found 65 players since 1901 who amassed 600 or more hits aged 34 to 37 while playing at least half time at any infield position or as DH. The median remaining career hits for this group (counting zero for the 10 players whose career ended at age 37) was 247, Luis Aparicio’s total. The total Jeter needs was at about the 37th percentile, a bit better than the chance Favorite toy gives.

Looking at performance from age 38 onwards for all players who played half-time in the infield or DH gives us these guys:

Rk Player H From To Age G PA BA OBP SLG OPS Pos Tm
1 Pete Rose 1092 1979 1986 38-45 1057 4426 .283 .365 .348 .713 *3/9754 PHI-TOT-CIN
2 Honus Wagner 784 1912 1917 38-43 762 3077 .285 .347 .393 .739 *6/354 PIT
3 Carl Yastrzemski 695 1978 1983 38-43 737 2963 .269 .354 .424 .778 *D37/89 BOS
4 Omar Vizquel 694 2005 2011 38-44 770 2953 .265 .327 .338 .665 *65/4D3 SFG-TEX-CHW
5 Dave Winfield 689 1990 1995 38-43 704 2892 .267 .337 .453 .790 *D9/73 TOT-CAL-TOR-MIN-CLE
6 Luke Appling 689 1945 1950 38-43 637 2659 .305 .404 .384 .788 *6/534 CHW
7 Paul Molitor 672 1995 1998 38-41 552 2483 .302 .359 .430 .789 *D/3 TOR-MIN
8 Craig Biggio 599 2004 2007 38-41 597 2513 .262 .315 .438 .752 *4/78D2 HOU
9 Rabbit Maranville 551 1930 1935 38-43 602 2503 .246 .308 .306 .614 *46/5 BSN
10 Julio Franco 525 1997 2007 38-48 757 2124 .282 .361 .400 .761 *3/D45 TOT-TBD-ATL-NYM
11 Darrell Evans 523 1985 1989 38-42 703 2649 .235 .351 .450 .801 *3D/5 DET-ATL
12 Edgar Martinez 509 2001 2004 38-41 515 2140 .286 .394 .474 .868 *D/35 SEA
13 Nap Lajoie 506 1913 1916 38-41 500 1968 .281 .323 .346 .669 *4/3675 CLE-PHA
14 Hank Aaron 499 1972 1976 38-42 583 2243 .260 .360 .477 .837 D73/9 ATL-MIL
15 Tony Perez 494 1980 1986 38-44 615 2055 .266 .326 .419 .744 *3/D BOS-PHI-CIN
16 Lave Cross 494 1904 1907 38-41 473 1983 .267 .299 .337 .636 *5 PHA-WSH
17 Wade Boggs 469 1996 1999 38-41 449 1798 .297 .372 .392 .764 *5/D31 NYY-TBD
18 Jake Daubert 465 1922 1924 38-40 383 1705 .307 .363 .428 .791 *3 CIN
19 Graig Nettles 458 1983 1988 38-43 708 2204 .238 .327 .402 .730 *5/3D NYY-SDP-ATL-MON
20 George Brett 447 1991 1993 38-40 428 1822 .270 .323 .411 .734 *D/35 KCR
21 Brian Downing 446 1989 1992 38-41 468 1867 .279 .375 .438 .813 *D/4 CAL-TEX
22 Dave Parker 442 1989 1991 38-40 433 1810 .265 .310 .419 .729 *D/39 OAK-MIL-TOT
23 Harold Baines 441 1997 2001 38-42 504 1738 .286 .361 .453 .813 *D/9 TOT-BAL-CHW
24 Eddie Murray 435 1994 1997 38-41 428 1769 .272 .328 .436 .764 *D/3 CLE-TOT
25 Andres Galarraga 412 2000 2004 39-43 483 1631 .281 .349 .475 .824 *3/D ATL-TOT-MON-SFG-ANA
26 Reggie Jackson 408 1984 1987 38-41 533 2016 .234 .336 .427 .763 *D9 CAL-OAK
27 Jeff Kent 391 2006 2008 38-40 372 1509 .292 .363 .466 .829 *4/3 LAD
28 Rafael Palmeiro 386 2003 2005 38-40 418 1727 .261 .354 .466 .821 *3D TEX-BAL
29 Willie McCovey 371 1976 1980 38-42 496 1715 .244 .321 .414 .736 *3/D TOT-SFG
30 Joe Kuhel 364 1944 1947 38-41 362 1503 .277 .363 .384 .747 *3 WSH-TOT-CHW
31 Eddie Collins 363 1925 1930 38-43 367 1326 .340 .452 .437 .889 *4/6 CHW-PHA
32 Ozzie Smith 352 1993 1996 38-41 365 1479 .269 .331 .343 .674 *6 STL
33 Frank Thomas 332 2006 2008 38-40 363 1472 .267 .373 .484 .856 *D OAK-TOR-TOT
34 Willie Stargell 321 1978 1982 38-42 427 1312 .279 .359 .526 .885 *3 PIT
35 Joe Morgan 316 1982 1984 38-40 373 1496 .256 .377 .401 .778 *4/D5 SFG-PHI-OAK
36 Mickey Vernon 315 1956 1960 38-42 423 1301 .280 .370 .445 .816 *3/79 BOS-CLE-MLN-PIT
37 Cal Ripken 306 1999 2001 38-40 297 1209 .274 .312 .453 .765 *5/D BAL
38 Gary Gaetti 305 1997 2000 38-41 394 1365 .249 .311 .418 .729 *5/3D1649 STL-TOT-CHC-BOS
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 3/11/2012.

What is most instructive about this list is that you have to play at least 3 more seasons if you want to amass over 300 hits after age 38 (the most hits of any player after age 38 who did not play to age 40 was 267 by Rico Carty). The other thing to notice is that, like Jeter, you had better be an outstanding player, if not an all-time great, if you want to accomplish this. Notice also the two shortstops (Appling, Vizquel) high up on this list who did not show up in the original query of shortstops getting 600 hits from age 34 to 37.

What does it all mean? I’m sticking with my hunch and giving Jeter better odds than Favorite Toy of passing Wagner. Let’s say at least a 50% chance of three more seasons, which should be enough to reach the milestone. Caveat is that his offense can’t slide too much as, unlike Smith, Aparicio and others, Derek doesn’t provide stellar defense as insurance for his spot in the lineup. If he craters like Reese did (or the way he himself did the first part of last season), then three more seasons may well be too much to expect.

What do you think?

 

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bstar
12 years ago

I think he’s an absolute lock to pass Wagner. I would honestly go over 75%, and I think he probably will do it in two years. He got 160+ hits last year while missing over 30 games and hit .327 the second half of the season(that .388 BABIP didn’t hurt). I think Jeter would have to be really, really bad for him to come out of the starting lineup for the Yanks, which gives him a big advantage over similar players at his age.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

True, but Pee Wee Reese was nowhere near the hitter that Jerek is. I’m hardly a Yankees fan but have become more and more of a Jeter fan through the years as consistency is the thing that impresses me the most about Hall of Famers(so I guess I’m a bigger fan of “accumulators” than most). I think Jeter’s incredibly high career batting average has been glossed over a bit in the later years of his career. As far as the last fifty years, the only right-handed hitters with a higher career BA than Jeter are Kirby Puckett and Roberto Clemente,… Read more »

Dave V.
Dave V.
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Well said, bstar.

Latefortheparty
Latefortheparty
12 years ago

Doug, thanks for the analysis and provocation. Jeter may deserve more props than I’m inclined to give. After all, it’s not a bad bet that he’ll end up with more hits than Wagner — Wagner! And that first chart, ages 34-37, there’s no doubt who doesn’t fit there. Not to mention the second chart. And Hans hold his own on the third as well. Over the last couple of years, I’ve come to accept Jeter as a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but this article has got my mind bending to consider (though not necessarily accept) that he could keep Honus… Read more »

Mark in Sydney
Mark in Sydney
12 years ago

Just don’t see it happening, Doug. One, his OPS is not good enough to sustain him through the aging process. I doubt that he will get the ABs to make it up. Two, the pressure of the Pin Stripes and wanting to win will all get too much. There was a lot of talk about releasing him this last off-season. I figure Jeter to be a Yankee through-and-through and he will retire rather than play elsewhere. Maybe go into their front-office or something. Whatever happens, he won’t survive the cut. Related, he is not that good a SS, and not… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
12 years ago

I think it’s very likely that Jeter will pass Wagner. But I also think it will be fascinating to see how his NYY career winds down. Jeter obviously has great commercial value to the Yankees. At the same time, winning championships is also important to their brand, and Jetes hasn’t pulled his weight in that department for 2 years. In 2010, Jeter’s 1.3 WAR ranked 8th on the Yankees – last among their everyday players. Last year, his 0.7 WAR ranked 9th among their position players, behind all the everyday players plus Andruw Jones. No one can compare with Jeter… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago

If I had to bet, I would say Favorite Toy percentage is probably close. I don’t believe Jeter is going to play in any meaningful way after 2013. I’ve watched him his entire career, and he works very hard and is very proud. He’s not going to take 50% paycut in 2014 (and the Yankees aren’t going to be in a position to give him more money) he’s not going to want to see his playing time reduced, and his not going to want to see either his qualitative numbers or his reputation take a hit. If he stays healthy… Read more »

John Autin
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Mike L, I think that’s very well said.

Jeter’s on-field performance is generally a bit overrated. Everything else about him as a member of a big-league team is a bit underrated.

I’ve really enjoyed watching him play.

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Agree Mike. One key to getting under $189m in 2014 is saving bucks at shortstop. Jeter will be too proud to take a massive paycut, and will never wear another uniform. Result: retirement in two years, and falling a bit short of Wagner.

bstar
12 years ago

Eeesh, I completely whiffed on factoring Jeter’s contract into my projections for his hits total in the next few years. You may be right, Mike, he may call it quits after 2013. I’ll take my percentage that he passes Wagner down to 60%(I still think he’ll get there by 2013).

Devon
12 years ago

Actually, he may have a better chance than you’ve calculated. After all, Honus made 890 appearances as a non-SS, and I’m sure he didn’t go 0-for-allthoseappearances. 890 games is 32% of his career appearances, so that’s a significant number. I have to ask – how many of his 3420 hits came AS A SHORTSTOP? That’s the real number Jeter needs to beat, and I wouldn’t be surprised if 100-200 of his hits came when he played a non-SS position, which would mean Jeter could pass it this season or early next.

Tmckelv
Tmckelv
12 years ago
Reply to  Devon

I believe Jeter already has the record for hits from the shortstop (even if you remove hit DH hits) position. The other players mentioned above Yount and Ripkin also had a significant number of hits from other positions.

Tmckelv
Tmckelv
12 years ago
Reply to  Tmckelv

oops, I should have read the whole thread before responding. You guys covered it below.

Devon
12 years ago

Actually, scratch what I just said. Honus didn’t play SS ’til 1901… which means that his first 654 hits weren’t made at that position. So Jeter’s already pass Honus Wagner for hits at SS, ’cause Wagner can’t possibly have more than 2,766 hits at the position. Therefore, Jeter will be the all-time SS hits leader if he just passes the AL guys you mentioned.

Devon
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Ahhh yes, looks like we were both lookin’ that up at the same time. 🙂 …nice article btw. I never would’ve thought about this if you didn’t bring it up.

Dr. Remulak
Dr. Remulak
12 years ago
Reply to  Devon

YES network made a big deal abouit Jeter breaking the all-time “hits while playing SS” record I believe last year. That record is already his.

Devon
12 years ago
Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago

As I was reading up on Jake Daubert, a solid 15-year player on the above list, his transactions indicate that he was involved in a Rule 5 Draft in the year 1909.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/daubeja01.shtml?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool

I haven’t found anything to indicate that the Rule 5 Draft existed before 1959. Can someone educate on that one?

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
12 years ago
Reply to  Voomo Zanzibar

First-baseman George McQuinn was drafted from the Yankees by the Browns in 1937.

birtelcom
Editor
12 years ago

Derek has been the shortstop for all but 29 games of his career. Ripken, Yount and Honus Wagner all played a substantial portion of their careers at other positions. As has been mentioned in the comments above, Jeter has more hits (3,053 in total) when actually playing shortstop than any other shortstop in history, by a wide margin. Omar Vizquel is second with 2,685. B-ref doesn’t have the data to tell us exactly how many hits Honus Wagner had while in the game is shortstop, but we do know that he played significant time at shortstop only from 1903 through… Read more »

MikeD
MikeD
12 years ago

I suspect he’ll pass by Wagner for career hits, but as has been noted, Jeter already has the MLB record for the most hits by a SS (meaning hits while playing as a SS). I have to say, I actually find Jeter to be a much more interesting figure at this stage of his career, but then again, I have always been fascinated by great players coming to the end of their careers. They are facing their own athletic mortality. We die once. They die twice. So in 2012, I will be rooting for Derek Jeter and Ichiro Suzuki. In… Read more »

Michael E Sullivan
Michael E Sullivan
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

well considering that Vizquel is basically a platoon/backup player at this point, I’m not sure he’s doing all that bad (though generally negative WAR two years in a row is a sign that you are done). Jeter is a starter on a team that expects to go to the playoffs every year — he’s definitely underperforming that role (in which you expect at least a ~2WAR player), so there is a sense in which he has overstayed at that position, and should have been moved elsewhere or to a backup role by now. If this past season is indicative of… Read more »

Michael Sullivan
Michael Sullivan
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Remember that oWar includes a positional adjustment, and the difference in positional adjustment between playing shortstop and DHing for a full season is pretty close to 2WAR. So what he’s delivering offensively is barely above replacement if it’s not coming from a skill spot in the field. This is exactly why I think his time is limited. The 2B switch is an interesting idea. I agree he gets less help with range issues at 2B, but his excellent timing and handling skills (the stuff that makes some people think he’s actually a good fielding SS) might be more relatively important… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

I will be rooting for these older players as well. You could put Chipper Jones, Jim Thome, Ivan Rodriguez if he got a chance to play, and Johnny Damon on that list. And personally, even if few are out there are, I will be rooting for Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez to hit to their fullest capabilities at their age also.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago

On opening day he will be the first person since Yount to be the active hits leader for three years.

2 Griffey
2 Biggio
2 Palmiero
2 Rickey
1 Ripken
2 Gwynn
1 Molitor
2 Murray
2 Winfield
1 Brett
3 Yount
2 Buckner
1 Garvey
10 Rose
8 Aaron
3 Mays
2 Fox
12 Musial

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago

Here’s an amazing example of consistency from a guy who knew how to collect hits.
Day, Night, Dome, Grass, Turf – all the same to him…

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=rosepe01&year=Career&t=b#stad::none

Jason Z
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

As mentioned before going back to the old BR blog…

Stan the Man 1,815 hits at home
1,815 hits on the road

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Doug,

This, plus #30 above (by me), were also mentioned a few days ago in the Don Mincher article.

Doug
Doug
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

Yes, they were, Lawrence.

But, seems easier to just repeat rather than direct someone to another post. 🙂

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago

As long as the yankees win, Jeter can’t get blamed for the team’s failures. So, he will continue to play-probably 140 games this year since the Yankees are propbably superior to the Rays and Red Sox for 2012. And, even when the team has failed in the post-season, there always was someone like A-rod to blame for the losses. Regarding batting order position, if the Yankees win out of the gate, Jeter will continue to bat at the top of the order – regardless of a so-so OBA and inability to drive the ball. 140 games x 4.25 AB’s x… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Jeter has played 152 games in the post season-effectively a full regular season. His slash line, batting first, is .307/.354/,465 with 107 Runs, 20 HR 59 RBI (and 18 steals in 23 attempts)

What a dog. Not sure how he’s managed to escape blame all these years.

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Mike: When they win, Jeter gets all the credit; when they lose, someone else gets the blame… I believe that slash line matches his career averages, but you would have thought he had put on a cape in a phone booth or walked on water to get it done. All the media felatio aside, he’s a first ballot Hall of Famer-not the first and not the last. I guess I should have been more specific: If the Yankees win out of the gate this year, Girardi won’t have to man-up and move Jeter to the 8 hole-where he belongs. If… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul E, you are making my point about the paradox of Jeter-he’s both underestimated and overestimated. Here are a few post-season lines 289 PA, 39 R, 12HR, 47RBI, no steals, .283/.388/.520 208 PA, 27 R, 3HR, 15 RBI, 11S/4CS .250/.314/.372 299 PA, 42 R, 13 HR, 31 RBI, 8S/3CS, .277/.386/.498 The last is A-Rod. Not bad, but below his 162 game average The middle one in Jimmy Rollins-definitely below his 162 game norm The top one is David Ortiz, comparable to his regular season norms. I’m not making Jeter out to be a superman-in fact-I’m not saying that at all.… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

Check out Lenny Dykstra 162-game averages versus his post-season. A true hero and national treasure….can’t you hear Luddy Von in the background while Tom Brennaman, confused and bewildered, consults Joe Buck on who deserves all the media butt-munching love?

Also, check out Willie Mays – homerless in 71 World Series AB’s. I guess by now you believe Dykstra the superior of the best all-around player of the last 60 years?

Finally, I guess by now you really believe Jeter will earn the $17,000,000/year he cajoled, begged, and cried to Randy Levine for?

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Well, he would have to hit worse than he’s ever hit in his career the next two years to reach your levels, Paul. Sure, it’s possible….but Jeter has only hit under .290 once in his career. He hit .327 in the second half last year. He did put up a better OBP last year than Gardner, or whoever you’re suggesting should be at the top of the order instead of him. As for defensively, he still ranks as an average shortshop away from Yankee Stadium, as he always has. And, as has been pointed out, there is no one to… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I read somewhere recently he was +1 runs for his career defensively away from Yankee Stadium. I dont recall if it was TZ numbers or TZ(pre-2002)/UZR numbers. I didn’t look it up, I was just passing on what I heard. So, sorry, until I can find proof of that, it’s just hearsay. It does put Jeter’s defense in a different light. I’ll try to find it. To answer your question, Doug, I don’t know.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Doug, go to Jeter’s page on Fangraphs and click “splits”, then “career”. Scroll all the way to the bottom, and it lists UZRs for home/away. This would be Jeter’s career 2002 and beyond, which makes it more impressive that he’s +0.1 wins in away games.

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

bstar: he’s never been 38 years old before and for a guy 6’3″, he’s never been a 70 – 80 EXB hits/year guy , either. His fielding has always been legendary-you know, that play where he goes to his right, jumps in the air, and nips the catcher at 1B by a mons pubus. Yeah, that play, Tulo, Ripken, Larkin make flat footed. Hey, I don’t manage the Yankees, but Girardi and the rest of them should put the guys who get on-base and drive the ball at the top of the order: Granderson Swisher A-Rod Cano Teixeira Jones/Ibanez/money saving… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Doug, Unfortunately, Fangraphs only lists those home/away splits for a player’s defensive career, so they’re really only useful for a guy who’s played his entire career with the same team. Why they don’t list the year by year splits is beyond me. I did learn that Brett Gardner, who has twice the Fangraphs’ dWAR over the last two years than any other player in baseball, has a 29.2 home/16.7 away split in his career. That’s a 75% increase at home. That, and the big splits in Jeter’s career, give me one more reason to not trust defensive metrics yet. Now… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago

#34/ Doug,

Good point about repeating the posts; I guess it stood out in my mind because I read the Don Mincher post, right before this one.

Speaking of consistency – Eddie Murray had a well-deserved reputation as one of the most consistent great players ever, and here is some confirmation:

1981 – 156 OPS+ 2.7 Adjusted batting wins (4.0 pro-rated)
1982 – 156 OPS+ 4.2 Adjusted batting wins
1983 – 156 OPS+ 4.6 Adjusted batting wins
1984 – 156 OPS+ 4.9 Adjusted batting wins

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago
Reply to  Doug

It’s not as dramatic as Murray, but check out Sam Crawford from 1907 to 1909: 1907 – 160 OPS+, 4.4 Adjusted Batting Wins 1908 – 159 OPS+, 4.4 Adjusted Batting Wins 1909 – 153 OPS+, 4.2 Adjusted Batting Wins He even had 102 runs and 37 BB in both 1907 and 1908, RBI of 81 and 80, hits of 188 and 184, doubles of 34 and 33, triples of 17 and 16, TB of 260 and 258 those two years. I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Vinny Castilla having the exact same Triple Crown stats two years in a… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  Lawrence Azrin

Adam Dunn astonishingly hit exactly 40 home runs 4 years in a row, from 2005-2008. The only other guy to hit over 40 home runs on one exact number 4 times in his career is Henry Aaron, who hit his uniform number, 44, four separate times in his career.

topper009
topper009
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

I have to mention Vinny Castilla here

1996: .304/40/113
1997: .304/40/113

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Admittedly not as impressive, but Fred Lynn hit 23 HR four years in row from 1984-1987. Cal Ripken had this progression from 1982 to 1986: 28, 27, 27, 26, 25. Then he messed it up in 1987 with 27.

Voomo Zanzibar
Voomo Zanzibar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

In his seven-year peak, Dunn had rbi totals of
92
100
101
102
103
105
106

Jason Z
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Dale Murphy hit 36 homers each season from 82-84. In 1985 he hit 37 homers.

Each season from 82-85 he played 162 games.

Mike Schmidt hit 36 homers in 74, and then 38
in each of the next three seasons.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Jason, I was such a Murph geek growing up that I used to keep a booklet that charted his every at-bat. Good stuff on the 3 year run of 36s. I wish B-Ref listed single-season HR totals all the way down to 15 or 20 instead of 36 being the cut-off. Those guys are slackers. 🙂

Jason Z
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Those of us who remember Steve Garvey probably
remember his consistency. 3 seasons of exactly
200 hits, 202 once, 204 once and 210 once.

I remember as a kid reading where Garvey had a
“system” in which to reach 200 hits. It seems
to have worked.

But who knew that…

1,300 hits at home. 1,299 on the road.

571 runs scored at home. 572 runs on the road.

21 triples at home. 22 triples on the road.

432, 431, 434…Steve Garvey’s career hit totals for the months of June, July and August
respectively.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Pete Rose’s consistency has already been mentioned, but I’ll throw out his run of similar looking hits totals anyway:

210-twice, 209, 208, 205-twice, 204.

Doug
Doug
12 years ago
Reply to  bstar

Gred Maddux had win totals of 19, 18, 19, 19 and 16, 16, 16 in a string of 17 straight seasons of 15 to 20 wins that broke down like this:
3 x 15
4 x 16
1 x 17
2 x 18
5 x 19
2 x 20

Dave V.
Dave V.
12 years ago

If Jeter has a major injury, then I don’t think he passes Wagner’s overall hits total…but outside of that, I think he’ll get there. One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is how well Jeter performed once he got his 3000th hit. From that game on, he hit .338 (65 games/266 AB’s). His OBP% and OPS% significantly improved from that point on. As soon as he got to #3000, Jeter admitted that he felt a lot of pressure as he got closer and closer to 3000 hits. And from then on in, he did play a lot better. Is 65 games… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago

Another way of following Jeter’s hits next year is tracking his rise on the all-time Career Base Hits list. Right now he is 20th with 3,088 hits. If he has 162 this year, same as 2011 (yeah, I know, not likely), he would have 3,250 hits, good for 13th place, between Eddie Murray and Larry Lajoie. 65 more hits would get him into the Top-10, alongside Eddie Collins. As #39/Dave V. points out above, a major factor in his continuing to get future regular playing time will be that he’s still a solid shortstop (offensively) compared to the rest of… Read more »

MikeD
MikeD
12 years ago

I wouldn’t be so sure it’s unlikely that Jeter won’t get 162 hits next year, or even more. He was injured last year and that’s a rarity for him. So even if his BA sinks (which probably is likely), he may still register more hits. I think a lot of people are trying to figure out if Jeter is the mediocre hitter from the first half, and the strong hitter of the second half, where it’s probably neither. He is what he produced overall on the season. Off his peak years, but still capable of providing value with the bat.… Read more »

Bob
Bob
12 years ago

When people talk of Derek Jeter, its time to get the popcorn, soda and a good seat. So many are trying to run his batting down, and the all time leader in hits for a SS does not stop the attacks. 3000 hits. One of the highest averages for a right handed hitter in the last half century is no help either. The last five years he’s hitting about .300 with 65 rbi per. Not bad for a leadoff hitter, although I always thought he was a better in the number 2 spot and early in his career he would… Read more »

MikeD
MikeD
12 years ago
Reply to  Bob

I never saw Mantle play, but I do see his last two years he had OPS+s of 149 and 142, thanks to his ability to still draw a walk. Those years also were 1967 and 1968, when hitting was overall in the tank, and the final season being what we know call the year of the pitcher. Knowing what was to come in 1969, it would not have surprised me at all if Mantle hit 30-35 HRs if played one more year.

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

MikeD, I saw Mantle play, and he was shot-they had already moved him to first base, and he was in constant pain. I don’t know how many people remember open-knee surgery, but a medium knee injury meant either you played through it, or were out for the balance of the year. If he played now, with the DH and better medical techniques, he could have had a late career arc like Thome’s, but, back then, retirement seemed the only option.

tommy
tommy
12 years ago

great breakdown. seems like paul molitor’s last 3 years might be the closest comparison (although, no, i’m not saying jeter will have 225 hits while he’s 39) but those last 2 years of 161 & 145 put the range of 150ish hits per year. I think he catches the hits… but there’s an even cooler one (me thinks)… Jeter has to average about 190 total bases per year (295, 245, 212 last 3y) to pass 30 of the greatest hitters of all time (including Hornsby, Yount, Reggie, Kaline, Molitor, Honus, Ted Williams and Jimmie Foxx) to move from #50 where… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  tommy

Yeah, great stuff, Tommy. I didn’t realize Jeter was that high on the total bases list, which is a list that has long been overlooked.

To me, the fact that Hank Aaron’s unbelievable total of 6,856 total bases is almost 12% better than the next closest guy, Stan Musial(6,134) is something that has been glossed over a bit.

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  tommy

Considering Jeter was typically a 50-60 EXB hits/year guy, the 5,000 total bases thing ranks right up there with Pete Rose breaking Mantle’s record for career TB by a switch hitter

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul E, would it be fair to say you just loathe Jeter? I’m not sure he deserves all that, but maybe there’s a post for Andy/John /Doug/Birtelcom/ “Over/Under-the Ten Most Controversial Greats”

I can think of a few….

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

“Greats” – not a guy who never hit 30 homers. I don’t loathe Jeter, or Pete Rose, or Reggie Jackson…just all the media adoration and the fans that buy into this larger than life BS. Really, we all know Jeter was a mediocre fielder, Reggie still holds the MLB career strikeout record, and Pete (like Jeter) had some of the greatest team mates in the history of the game and never hit more than 16 HR’s in a season. But, once again, the media has made these guys out to be the superior of all their contemporaries. First-ballot HoF’ers without… Read more »

Dave V.
Dave V.
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

@77 Paul E – you write ” “Greats” – not a guy who never hit 30 homers.” Since when did 30 HR’s become the standard to be considered an all-time great? Just curious as to where you came up with that number as the “great” standard? BTW, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, Wade Boggs and Roberto Clemente are a few of the players who never hit 30 HR’s. Also BTW, Jeter has the 4th most HR’s for any player who played at least 75% of his games at SS. Drop the standard to at least 50% of games at… Read more »

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul, it sounds like you still have the Jeter-backlash thing going on, since, agreed, a lot of the accolades spread his way(especially after he made that little flip throw to home to get a runner out) were a bit much, especially at the time. I think most people don’t see him in that light anymore. This discussion is merely about where he might end up on the all-time hits list, not a proclamation of his godliness. He is a definite first ballot Hall of Famer, though, and average-wise one of the greatest right-handed hitters of the last 50 years(as mentioned… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  tommy

Tommy
How about Omar Vizquel 11th all-time amongst switch-hitters in career total bases with a slugging pct of .353 and OPS+ of 82 !!! God, that’s horrible

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

The population of switch-hitters is a small percentage of all batters, and Vizquel has played an extremely long time (11,850 PA- 18th all time), so it’s not surprising he ranks high on the list of TB for switch-hitters, even with a .353 SLG I do not see anything “horrible” about that factoid, it’s a tribute to his great longevity. #73 – A player doesn’t doesn’t have be a great HR hitter to rank up there in Total Bases; they can also get there by piling up lots of hits, doubles, and triples. Look at Cobb, Speaker, Wagner, Molitor, Yount, Biggio,… Read more »

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago

Mike L & bstar: As I said in comment 36, “first ballot Hall of Famer”. It’s the media, Ok, it’s the media. Mea culpa,it’s just the media. dave V (78): If you don’t like the 30 HR standard (you forgot Al Kaline), how about “was he the best player on the field out of the 18 guys (20 in the AL) on the field”. And, how often was he the best player on the field, on his team, in the league? That’s the kind of adoration Jeter got his whole career. I just don’t know if he was deserving of… Read more »

Mike L
Mike L
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Paul E; I don’t want to speak for bstar, but from my perspective, you are kind of missing the point. This isn’t a “heartstrings” thing-don’t put me in the idolators camp. Empirically, Jeter is one of the better shortstops of all time. Not Wagner, or Ripken, or ARod, but one of the top ten. Those are facts. All of us agree that his reputation for on-field performance exceeds his numbers, but his numbers are really good. Getting into a bidding war with you with on just how overrated he is is pointless-by the time we are done we will be… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago
Reply to  Mike L

I agree with Mike L that Jeter is overrated only in the sense that Clemente and Ken Griffey Jr are overrated; they are all no-brainer HOFers, but not quite as great as a lot of mainstream writers and fans think they are. A lot of people would put Clemente up with Aaron or Frank Robinson, or Griffey with Tris Speaker or Mickey Mantle. This is similar to what these people are doing, putting Jeter up there with Wagnus and A-Rod. To say Jeter is not as good as those two _is not_ saying that Jeter is not a great player… Read more »

birtelcom
Editor
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Since 1995, when Jeter debuted in the majors, the top 5 baseball-reference WAR totals accumulated have been: A-Rod 105.0 Bonds 104.6 Pujols 88.7 Chipper 82.6 Derek 70.4 Those are purely stats-driven, not media-driven, numbers (using the fangraphs version of WAR, you get the same top 5 in the same order) . Has the media treated Jeter as if he were a better player than the first three on this list? I don’t think so. Has Chipper Jones been under-rated by the media relative to Jeter, in terms of their respective objective achievements? Yes, probably. Does Jeter get a particularly high… Read more »

Dave V.
Dave V.
12 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Agreed (though it is 5 World Series championships…in addition to 1996, 1998, 1999 & 2000, there’s the 2009 championship as well)
😉

Richard Chester
Richard Chester
12 years ago
Reply to  birtelcom

Since Jeter has been playing for the Yankees they have won more WS, more pennants, have more victories (by a lot) and scored more runs than any other team in the majors. That counts for a lot.

Lawrence Azrin
Lawrence Azrin
12 years ago

You could say the exact same thing about Jorge Posada also.

While the WS wins are certlainly an excellent part of hisresume, there’s a limit as to how well the “Count The Ringzzzz!!” approach works in evaluating players.

I’ll re-state this; a player can be a 100% deserving HOFer, yet still be a bit ovverated. This applies to Jeter, Clemente, Griffey as I stated in #83.

Paul E
Paul E
12 years ago
Reply to  Paul E

Sorry to get everyone so worked up over this, but, as previously stated: 1) “first-ballot hall of famer” 2) 295 – 315 hits over the next two years 3) in light of his 50 – 60 XBH/year, 5,000 TB would be a heck of an accomplishment 4) Doesn’t get on base as well as previously (possibly bats lower) 5) Doesn’t drive the ball as well either (another reason to bat lower) 6) He is 38 years old this year If I pissed anyone off suggesting he should hit lower in the order, let me reiterate, “mea culpa”. Jeter is certainly… Read more »