The best relief career you never hear about

Who were the top relievers of the 1970s?

If you ask the average fan, you’d likely hear Rollie Fingers, Sparky Lyle, Goose Gossage, Mike Marshall, Tug McGraw, Kent Tekulve and others before John Hiller. Hell, I’m a Tigers fan, and even I would have named a few guys ahead of my hometown hero.

But John Hiller was #1 in Reliever* bWAR in the ’70s, and it wasn’t even close:

Rk	Player	WAR	ERA+	SO/9	SO/BB	WPA/LI	IR	IS%	From	To	Age	G	GS	CG	SHO	GF	W	L	W%	SV	IP
1	John Hiller	25.7	144	8.02	1.96	7.888	455	31.65%	1970	1979	27-36	426	17	6	2	321	69	63	.523	115	911.0
2	Rich Gossage	19.2	119	7.25	1.77	6.412	355	30.14%	1972	1979	20-27	359	37	16	0	223	55	59	.482	101	910.1
3	Sparky Lyle	16.7	141	5.53	1.85	10.127	688	33.72%	1970	1979	25-34	600	0	0	0	477	69	59	.539	190	960.1
4	Mike Marshall	16.4	126	5.90	1.76	8.292	455	31.87%	1970	1979	27-36	628	10	0	0	505	89	94	.486	177	1176.2
5	Rollie Fingers	15.9	118	7.18	2.76	12.024	545	29.54%	1970	1979	23-32	640	29	3	1	480	84	85	.497	209	1219.0
6	Bruce Sutter	14.2	177	9.63	3.63	8.055	195	26.67%	1976	1979	23-26	240	0	0	0	179	27	22	.551	105	390.2
7	Terry Forster	13.0	109	6.87	1.82	3.006	338	28.70%	1971	1979	19-27	360	39	5	0	213	38	52	.422	100	774.0
8	Bill Campbell	12.8	124	6.48	1.80	2.447	374	31.28%	1973	1979	24-30	355	9	2	1	274	55	39	.585	95	706.0
9	Jim Kern	12.5	141	8.33	1.81	6.122	318	27.67%	1974	1979	25-30	256	12	1	0	178	42	35	.545	75	539.0
10	Tug McGraw	12.1	120	6.75	1.96	11.426	301	33.55%	1970	1979	25-34	542	9	1	1	374	69	58	.543	132	967.1

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/11/2012.

(* All “reliever” claims herein refer to pitchers who relieved in at least 80% of their games.)

Today, Hiller is remembered mainly for his 38 saves in 1973, a record that lasted a decade (and a season that ranks #2 all-time in reliever bWAR). You may also know that he had no other 20-save years, and a modest 125 career saves. But he had 7 years of at least 2 WAR in the ’70s; no other reliever had more than 5. He had 3 years of 4+ WAR in the decade, more than any other RP.

If you’re not impressed by WAR, well, Hiller’s 144 ERA+ was also #1 among ’70s relievers. (Min. 400 IP; 58 relievers met that threshold.)

Was it an accident of timing? Is the ’70s comparison misleading because Hiller’s prime fits the decade pretty neatly, while other relief stars began or ended halfway through?

Not really. Hiller leads in reliever WAR for:

every 10-year period from 1965-74 through 1971-80; and
the 5-year periods 1970-74, 1971-75, 1972-76 and 1973-77. He’s 2nd for 1974-78, behind Gossage but well ahead of all others.

In fact, Hiller leads in reliever WAR for the 20 years 1961-80 combined:

Rk	Player	WAR	ERA+	SO/9	SO/BB	WPA/LI	IR	IS%	From	To	Age	G	GS	CG	SHO	GF	W	L	W%	SV	IP
1	John Hiller	28.2	134	7.51	1.94	9.486	550	32.36%	1965	1980	22-37	545	43	13	6	363	87	76	.534	125	1242.0
2	Rich Gossage	22.4	123	7.45	1.85	8.056	409	29.10%	1972	1980	20-28	423	37	16	0	281	61	61	.500	134	1009.1
3	Hoyt Wilhelm	20.9	161	7.13	2.63	17.610	353	34.84%	1961	1972	38-49	597	4	0	0	423	70	64	.522	162	1083.2
4	Sparky Lyle	20.4	135	5.87	1.93	9.968	920	34.02%	1967	1980	22-35	806	0	0	0	598	87	67	.565	233	1266.2
5	Tug McGraw	18.6	119	6.74	1.90	12.714	367	32.15%	1965	1980	20-35	697	38	5	1	465	87	84	.509	165	1337.1
6	Bruce Sutter	17.7	171	9.02	3.32	8.788	233	26.18%	1976	1980	23-27	300	0	0	0	222	32	30	.516	133	493.0
7	Clay Carroll	16.9	122	4.53	1.54	8.474	528	35.98%	1964	1978	23-37	731	28	1	0	373	96	73	.568	143	1353.1
8	Dave Giusti	16.9	95	5.78	1.94	5.677	414	36.71%	1962	1977	22-37	668	133	35	9	380	100	93	.518	145	1716.2
9	Rollie Fingers	16.6	115	6.88	2.58	11.372	660	29.85%	1968	1980	21-33	767	37	4	2	556	101	101	.500	244	1442.1
10	Mike Marshall	16.3	118	5.79	1.72	6.807	506	33.40%	1967	1980	24-37	703	24	3	1	540	94	110	.461	188	1355.2
11	Don McMahon	15.3	126	6.91	1.80	10.267	497	34.41%	1961	1974	31-44	696	2	0	0	383	73	54	.575	111	1061.0
12	Ted Abernathy	15.2	131	6.10	1.38	7.191	478	32.43%	1963	1972	30-39	608	0	0	0	400	55	47	.539	148	910.2
13	Ron Perranoski	15.0	124	5.26	1.47	8.110	632	32.91%	1961	1973	25-37	737	1	0	0	458	79	74	.516	179	1174.2
14	Jim Brewer	14.4	113	7.09	2.27	6.934	443	33.18%	1961	1976	23-38	579	31	1	1	351	69	62	.527	132	1018.2
15	Lindy McDaniel	14.2	110	6.07	2.31	8.273	664	35.84%	1961	1975	25-39	761	13	3	0	464	88	81	.521	131	1456.0
16	Grant Jackson	13.8	107	6.01	1.81	3.545	578	27.85%	1965	1980	22-37	626	83	16	5	260	81	72	.529	75	1276.2
17	Al McBean	13.2	111	4.83	1.58	3.692	217	36.87%	1961	1970	23-32	409	76	22	5	186	67	50	.573	63	1072.1
18	Terry Forster	13.1	110	6.79	1.81	3.200	341	29.03%	1971	1980	19-28	369	39	5	0	220	38	52	.422	100	785.2
19	Gary Lavelle	12.8	132	6.31	1.62	3.676	324	35.80%	1974	1980	25-31	412	0	0	0	244	49	46	.516	83	622.0
20	Bob Miller	12.7	105	5.15	1.44	0.705	494	36.03%	1961	1974	22-35	663	82	4	0	282	61	75	.449	51	1419.0
21	Bill Campbell	12.6	121	6.32	1.72	2.509	395	31.39%	1973	1980	24-31	378	9	2	1	285	59	39	.602	95	747.1
22	Dick Radatz	12.3	122	9.67	2.52	5.220	283	33.22%	1962	1969	25-32	381	0	0	0	297	52	43	.547	122	693.2
23	Jim Kern	12.1	131	8.05	1.68	5.282	361	30.47%	1974	1980	25-31	294	13	1	0	193	45	46	.495	77	602.1
24	Frank Linzy	11.3	124	3.94	1.27	4.974	436	35.55%	1963	1974	22-33	516	2	0	0	342	62	57	.521	111	817.1
25	Dave LaRoche	11.1	104	7.23	1.77	4.230	577	28.94%	1970	1980	22-32	595	14	1	0	351	57	55	.509	126	951.1

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/11/2012.

Now, maybe WAR isn’t the perfect measure of a relief ace. But still, that’s a big margin in WAR. The gap from Hiller to #2 is the same as the gap from #2 to #9.

Hiller’s 28.2 career bWAR ranks 7th all-time among relievers. Here are those with at least 20 bWAR:

Rk	Player	WAR	GF	IP	ERA+	From	To	Age	W	L	SV
1	Mariano Rivera	56.3	883	1211.1	206	1995	2011	25-41	75	57	603
2	Hoyt Wilhelm	41.3	651	2254.1	147	1952	1972	29-49	143	122	227
3	Rich Gossage	40.0	681	1809.1	126	1972	1994	20-42	124	107	310
4	Trevor Hoffman	30.8	856	1089.1	141	1993	2010	25-42	61	75	601
5	Lee Smith	30.3	802	1289.1	132	1980	1997	22-39	71	92	478
6	Billy Wagner	29.7	703	903.0	187	1995	2010	23-38	47	40	422
7	John Hiller	28.2	363	1242.0	134	1965	1980	22-37	87	76	125
8	John Franco	25.8	774	1245.2	138	1984	2005	23-44	90	87	424
9	Bruce Sutter	25.0	512	1042.0	136	1976	1988	23-35	68	71	300
10	Kent Tekulve	24.8	638	1436.2	132	1974	1989	27-42	94	90	184
11	Rollie Fingers	24.4	709	1701.1	120	1968	1985	21-38	114	118	341
12	Dan Quisenberry	24.3	553	1043.1	147	1979	1990	26-37	56	46	244
13	Lindy McDaniel	23.4	577	2139.1	110	1955	1975	19-39	141	119	172
14	Tom Henke	23.1	548	789.2	157	1982	1995	24-37	41	42	311
15	Francisco Rodriguez	22.7	445	648.2	172	2002	2011	20-29	36	27	291
16	Stu Miller	22.6	405	1693.1	115	1952	1968	24-40	105	103	154
17	Joe Nathan	22.1	408	729.2	152	1999	2011	24-36	48	23	261
18	Dave Righetti	21.6	474	1403.2	114	1979	1995	20-36	82	79	252
19	Doug Jones	21.5	640	1128.1	129	1982	2000	25-43	69	79	303
20	Bob Stanley	21.5	376	1707.0	119	1977	1989	22-34	115	97	132
21	Francisco Cordero	21.4	557	785.1	145	1999	2011	24-36	44	45	327
22	Rick Aguilera	21.3	557	1291.1	118	1985	2000	23-38	86	81	318
23	Jeff Montgomery	21.1	549	868.2	135	1987	1999	25-37	46	52	304
24	John Wetteland	20.8	523	765.0	149	1989	2000	22-33	48	45	330
25	Jesse Orosco	20.6	501	1295.1	126	1979	2003	22-46	87	80	144
26	Tug McGraw	20.4	541	1514.2	117	1965	1984	20-39	96	92	180
27	Jeff Reardon	20.3	695	1132.1	122	1979	1994	23-38	73	77	367
28	Keith Foulke	20.2	406	786.2	140	1997	2008	24-35	41	37	191

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/11/2012.

Now, I’m not trying to put John Hiller in the Hall, just because he has more bWAR than Sutter or Fingers, and a bigger 5-year peak than Rivera, Hoffman, Wilhelm or Eckersley (as a RP). But he was a hell of a pitcher.

So why isn’t he widely considered one of the all-time great relievers?

Saves became the predominant reliever stat. And after his record-setting ’73, Hiller didn’t rack up saves. Two reasons why:

After ’73, the Tigers got real bad, averaging 92 losses over the next 4 years; and
Detroit was one of the last teams to adopt the “closer” role. They were in the bottom 4 in saves each year from 1974-78. In 1978, Hiller’s last big year, the Tigers won 86 games, but had just 21 saves. The MLB average was 31 saves; the other winning teams averaged 36.

Hiller also got just a whiff of postseason exposure: Detroit made the playoffs just once in the ’70s, losing the ’72 ALCS to Oakland in 5 tense games. Hiller pitched in 3 of the 5 games, totaling 3.1 scoreless IP, allowing just an infield single and stranding both inherited runners. Most of the World Series teams in the ’70s had star relievers, whose status was raised by pitching on the biggest stage: Fingers, Gossage, Lyle, McGraw, Kent Tekulve, Mike Marshall, Clay Carroll and Rawly Eastwick….

I’ll close with two last tables:

Total strikeouts among ’70s relievers:

Rk	Player	SO	ERA+	SO/9	SO/BB
1	Rollie Fingers	973	118	7.18	2.76
2	John Hiller	812	144	8.02	1.96
3	Mike Marshall	771	126	5.90	1.76
4	Rich Gossage	733	119	7.25	1.77
5	Tug McGraw	726	120	6.75	1.96
6	Tom Hall	687	107	9.06	2.15
7	Dave LaRoche	675	105	7.38	1.72
8	Terry Forster	591	109	6.87	1.82
9	Sparky Lyle	590	141	5.53	1.85
10	Diego Segui	546	102	6.33	1.53

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/11/2012.

All pitchers — Top strikeout rates in the ’70s (min. 500 IP):

Rk	Player	SO/9	IP	SO	ERA+	From	To	Age
1	Nolan Ryan	9.78	2465.0	2678	113	1970	1979	23-32
2	Tom Hall	9.06	682.1	687	107	1970	1977	22-29
3	Jim Kern	8.33	539.0	499	141	1974	1979	25-30
4	J.R. Richard	8.29	1492.1	1374	105	1971	1979	21-29
5	John Hiller	8.02	911.0	812	144	1970	1979	27-36
6	Sam McDowell	7.88	902.1	790	106	1970	1975	27-32
7	Tom Seaver	7.82	2652.1	2304	138	1970	1979	25-34
8	Ron Guidry	7.80	752.1	652	155	1975	1979	24-28
9	Dave LaRoche	7.38	823.1	675	105	1970	1979	22-31
10	Al Hrabosky	7.37	591.1	484	127	1970	1979	20-29
11	Rich Gossage	7.25	910.1	733	119	1972	1979	20-27
12	John D’Acquisto	7.22	655.2	526	81	1973	1979	21-27
13	Rollie Fingers	7.18	1219.0	973	118	1970	1979	23-32
14	Bert Blyleven	7.14	2624.2	2082	130	1970	1979	19-28
15	Frank Tanana	7.14	1411.1	1120	122	1973	1979	19-25

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 2/11/2012.

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DaveR

12 years ago

WOW! 17-14 in ’74? That is incredible. I’ve never seen so many decisions by a reliever, and he only pitched in 59 games! Adding 13 saves to the mix, he sure wasn’t wasted that year.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to DaveR

You may have meant to make this point subtly, Dave, but I’ll make it bluntly: Nobody has seen so many decisions by a reliever as the 31 Hiller had in ’74. That’s the all-time record for a pitcher with even half his games in relief. BTW, since I’ve written of inherited runners lately, including Hiller’s amazing ’73 performance (stranding 71 of 84 runners), I’ll add that in ’74 Hiller did quite poorly in that regard, letting in half of his 54 inherited runners (against an MLB average of 37%). The bulk of Hiller’s ’74 value (4.2 bWAR) came from his… Read more »

J. B. Rainsberger

12 years ago

Canadian baseball fans of a certain age would immediately guess John Hiller. 🙂

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to J. B. Rainsberger

Well quoth, J.B.!

Steven

12 years ago

Didn’t Hiller have a heart attack prior to his big success?

12 years ago

Yep. Actually he had 4 really good seasons before the heart attack but was better afterwards. In fact, if he hadn’t missed 1 1/2 years in the 70s due to the heart attack, he’d have an even bigger lead on some of Andy’s tables. BTW, this is what wikipedia says about the heart attack: “After his January 11, 1971 heart attack, he had a lengthy recovery and was invited to 1972 spring training, but was left off the roster and designated as a coach when the year began, starting the season as a batting practice pitcher.” He didn’t rejoin the… Read more »

Adam Darowski

12 years ago

Hiller has to be the most underrated pitcher (any role) in history. His story is incredible, too.

Putting him in the Hall, however, would be as crazy as putting Bruce Suttee or Rollie Fingers in.

Oh wait…

-1

Admin

Andy

12 years ago

JA did you change the name of this post after it went up? I notice that our Twitter feed published it under a different name.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Andy

I did, Andy. I switched it to a more informative title.

AlbaNate

12 years ago

Great post John!

I always thought that John Hiller was a pretty good pitcher when I was a kid–thanks for providing the proof.

As an added bonus, this post made me think about a bunch of players I hadn’t thought about in a long time. Like Dave Giusti, who I remember most for his odd delivery–at least I thought it odd at the time. And Gary Lavelle and Diego Segui, more forgotten player from that era.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Aside to Mike Felber and others who would like to see equal representation for Fangraphs WAR — I was going to include some fWAR numbers in the post, but then I found that fWAR begins in 1974, which misses more than half of Hiller’s career, including his best season. I will note, however, that fWAR seems to rate Hiller lower than bWAR for the years available. The two sets of reliever WAR rankings are very different for 1974: 1974 bWAR — Tom Murphy 5.1, Hiller 4.2, Bill Campbell 3.7, Sparky Lyle 3.3, Mike Marshall 3.1. 1974 fWAR — Mike Marshall… Read more »

MikeD

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I just took a quick look at Hiller’s fWAR numbers, and it appears Fangraph’s dings him related to FIP, which is included in their formula. Normally this is fine, and it’s one of the things I like about fWAR (I like rWAR too, but use them for different things), but it can lead to underrating select pitchers who have consistently shown the ability to exceed their FIP numbers. The folks at FanGraphs, for example, will admit that their formual underrates Mariano Rivera, whose cutter allows him to consistently produce weak contact, moving it from luck to a repeatable skill. For… Read more »

kds

12 years ago

Reply to MikeD

Maybe he had a skill to produce weak contact and that is why his ERA is consistently better than his FIP. But it is also possible that he had above average defenses behind him and that explains the difference. I don’t think there are direct ways to test the first hypothesis, but we can look at the defense independent of his pitching and test the second theory.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to kds

Tigers team defense, by Total Zone runs, for Hiller’s years of 40+ innings:

1967, +60
1968, +63
1969, +32
1970, -55
1972, +8
1973, -19
1974, -26
1975, -58
1976, -37
1977, -15
1978, +19
1979, -6

Total, -34

About 2/3 of Hiller’s career IP came in Detroit’s negative defensive seasons.

Chris Maddix

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I guess the most interesting aspect of this for me is that Tiger defense dropped in efficiency coincident with the additions of Aurelio and Brinkman, and with, arguably, the best seasons of Mickey Stanley.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Chris — dWAR sees Rodriguez and Brinkman, taken together, as just a little above average during their Tigers years. The holdovers were declining with age.

But the biggest factor in those negative numbers is Ron Leflore, rated by dWAR (along with Rick Monday) as far worse than all other regular CFs over 1974-78.

MikeD

12 years ago

Reply to kds

I saw your note over the weekend and meant to circle back to it once I took a closer look at Hiller’s FIP numbers in the context of Detroit’s defense. I see John A. beat me to it.

The result is as I expected. Detroit was quite bad for a number of those years, with a poor defense. It further indicates why fWAR underrates Hiller.

Kerry W

12 years ago

He was always primarily used as a reliever, but in many years he did start a number of games (8% of total games), and completed about a third of them. I wonder how much of his WAR came from the starts? Using WPA (which I think is a good measure for a relief pitcher), he is only 30th overall for relief pitchers (define as JA did). For the 70’s he was 4th in reliever WPA, behind Gossage, McGraw and Lyle. Looking into it further, in the 70’s Gossage and Hiller had almost identical IP, Hiller had more bWAR and Gossage… Read more »

birtelcom

12 years ago

Reply to Kerry W

Gd point about Hiller as a starter. His numbers as a starter are good, and he might well have been a solid starter if he’d been used that way consistently. He started 42 games between 1967 and 1977, with an ERA in those games of 3.03. Among 298 pitchers who had at least 30 total starts over the period 1967 to 1977, Hlller’s 3.03 is the 17th best (just behind Nolan Ryan’s 3.02 ERA as a starter over that period). Hiller’s career OPS against as a relief pitcher was .648 — his career OPS against as a starter was only… Read more »

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to birtelcom

On Oct. 1, 1976, Hiller started for the first time in over 4 years … and tossed a 4-hit shutout.

Kerry W

12 years ago

JA mentioned the number of inherited runners scoring. Hiller had 125 saves and 63 blown saves, which is not very good. That could account for his weaker WPA. He may be one of those relievers for whom ERA is not the best measure of their effectiveness.

-1

Dr. Remulak

12 years ago

Reply to Kerry W

Hiller averaged more than 2 innings per relief appearance. Blown saves are more likely if you are out there 2 or 3 innings, rather than 1.

Richard Chester

12 years ago

Reply to Dr. Remulak

In 1974 Hiller averaged 2.54 IP/G. That is the second highest ratio for pitchers in a season with all of his appearances in relief. The highest belongs to Bob Stanley with 3.50in 1982.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Glad to hear the Steamer’s name in this discussion. That ’82 season by Stanley is one of the most unusual in reliever history. — 33 relief games of 3+ IP, a record by 5. — 11 saves of 3+ IP, tied for the most ever, with Quisenberry ’83 and Campbell ’77 (Stanley’s teammate from 1977-80). — 18 relief games of 4+ IP, the most since 1927 (Garland Braxton, 20). — 11 relief games of 5+ IP, the most since 1923 (Allen Russell, 12). Stanley has the highest career IP/G of any reliever in the expansion era, the 4th-highest of all… Read more »

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Must have been a relief approach the Red Sox were trying out that year. Stanley’s teammate Mark Clear had a very similar 1982 season.

– all relief appearances: 55 for Clear, 45 for Stanley
– almost 2 IP per appearance for Clear, over 3 for Stanley
– 14 saves for each
– lots of decisions: 14-9 for Clear, 12-7 for Stanley
– ERA+: 145 for Clear, 140 for Stanley

Lawrence Azrin

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

John A., Good to see Bob Stanley, the “Rodney Dangerfield” of Red Sox pitchers, get a little respect here. Not only did he get constant critisism from Red Sox fans most of his career, he wasn’t even _listed_ on the HOF ballot in 1995 when his career was over, despite getting MVP votes in three different seasons. I remember him once publicly commenting on this, and he was genuinely disappointed. Was he that much worse than Mike Krukow or Chris Speier, who at least appeared on that 1995 ballot and even got a HOF vote? I understand Willie Hernandez getting… Read more »

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Yes, Stanley is the last reliever to qualify for the ERA title, leading the league (among qualifiers) in ERA+.

Other relievers to do this since the 1960s are Sammy Stewart (’81), Bill Campbell (’76), Mike Marshall (’73, ’74), Fergie Jenkins!! (’66), and Eddie Fisher (’65).

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

I can’t believe I didn’t know that Fergie spent a season mostly in relief!

He pitched much better as a starter, though.

Kerry W

12 years ago

Reply to Dr. Remulak

I should have mentioned Gossage’s SV/BS ratio by comparison (310/112); it was closer to 3-to-1, not 2-to-1 like Hiller’s. Not great by today’s standards (perhaps for the reason you mentioned), but better than Hiller’s.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Kerry W

But I think you have to look even deeper to see the difference in usage between Hiller and even a more-than-1-inning guy like Gossage. Gossage’s blown saves averaged 1.76 IP and a 6.77 ERA. Hiller’s blown saves averaged 2.12 IP and a 5.25 ERA. On average, Hiller was coming into the game earlier than Gossage, and coming into tighter games. It’s worth noting that Detroit’s record in Hiller’s blown saves was 26-37 (.413), with Hiller himself going 20-23. In those 20 wins — these are blown saves, mind you — Hiller averaged 2.77 IP with a 1.95 ERA. In Gossage’s… Read more »

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

Except maybe comparing Hiller’s blown saves to Gossage’s. Hiller did better, but Gossage had similar sorts of numbers.

KalineCountry

12 years ago

John Hiller was a pitcher of those veteran Tigers’ teams of 1967 and the magical season of 1968. I remember him starting his career a few years earlier when I was a teen and seeing him pitch at fenway, (Family moved from Detroit in 1957). iirc he was more a swingman, starting and relieving, before the heart attack. Remembering the shock of reading a baseball player, just a few years older than I was having such a serious health issue was/is just something you thought of that people more than twice his age. To come back from it and have… Read more »

Dr. Remulak

12 years ago

Reply to KalineCountry

Jim Bouton tells a bizarre Dick Radatz story in Ball Four. Apparently, some guy hired Radatz to throw — if I remember correctly — oranges at his naked ass. Ypu can look it up.

Andy r

12 years ago

Reply to Dr. Remulak

And Bouton added “And that’s back when Radatz could really bring it”…

Lawrence Azrin

12 years ago

Reply to KalineCountry

KalineCountry, Ah, the MONSTER – Dick Radatz! – from 1962-1964 he was the most dominant Red Sox reliever ever (including Papelbon). He was Top-5 in Pitcher’s WAR, 1st or 2nd in Saves, received MVP votes all three of these years. In the 90s and early ’00s, he co-hosted several weekend baseball shows on Boston-area sports station WEEI. He was one of the few older players who readily admitted that the current baseball players were: – in better shape overall than players of his generation – better behaved in public (MUCH less drinking, in particular) – just as good as the… Read more »

KalineCountry

12 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

Lawrence, Yes he was a great guy. Living in and around boston since 1957, I used to see him close out games, watching them with my dad. Years later when I used to listen to the baseball talk shows, when they allowed a caller to speak, I used to call the old ‘Clif and Claf’ show with Cliff Keane a great writer imo for the boston globe, and Larry Claflin with the herald. Radatz was on one afternoon, and I was able to talk with him for a few minutes about his success as a reliever, and if he thought… Read more »

Lawrence Azrin

12 years ago

Reply to KalineCountry

KalineCountry,

Thanks for sharing the anecdotes. I also heard that Radatz suffered from leg troubles for a while, and had trouble getting around, so that may have been the cause of the fall. Well, I guess it doesn’t matter now.

I always wondered why his career declined so quickly after 1965; he was still striking out about a batter an inning till the end of his career.

KalineCountry

12 years ago

Reply to Lawrence Azrin

You’re welcome, I don’t remember that much about Radatz’s leg problem, except maybe something about neuropathy. I just can’t say for sure. I do remember that Radatz had put on alot of weight later in life, which can also be an attributing factor. He was really most outgoing on the radio with all the fans that called in. The phone call into the radio station was back in 1978 or 79. My only other call to ‘Clif and Claf’ was in the same time frame of 78/79. They had Kaline on before a night game Tigers at fenway and I… Read more »

Dr. Doom

12 years ago

Showing my age: I had never heard of John Hiller before. Thanks for the post, JA! Another interesting thing about Hiller is that in 1973, his saves+decisions is 53. That is a HUGE number. Even with the advent of the modern bullpen, that number is big. I mean, if your saves+decisions is high, that means you’re really in the game when it’s on the line. Even last season, Hiller’s S+D total of 53 would have tied for 2nd in the majors – only Jose Valverde (55) had more, and Craig Kimbrel also had 53. In the last five years, here… Read more »

Dr. Doom

12 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

And holy cow!!! 150 relief innings in 1974? Wow. I don’t see anyone topping that any time soon, unless there’s a pretty major change in reliever usage patterns, which the post earlier this week seems to be specifically contradicting.

DaveR

12 years ago

Reply to Dr. Doom

Mike Marshall’s 1974 is just nuts. 208 innings in relief, and used almost 2 innings a game, on average. No manager will ever subject his best reliever to that type of abuse ever again.

KalineCountry

12 years ago

Reply to DaveR

The 4 year run by Radatz from 62-65 was similar with a 2 inning average per appearance. iirc any one of the sox managers of pesky, jurges, higgins, kasko, bringing Radatz in to pitch the 6th inning or before.

e pluribus munu

12 years ago

Reply to DaveR

As I recall, Marshall’s usage was in large part self-abuse (so to speak). Marshall had some expertise in anatomy, a self-designed training method, a theory about optimal relief pitching, and a salesman’s relentlessness. He lobbied Alston publicly to let him pitch on an everyday basis – Wilbur Wood was pitching unbelievable innings totals in the AL on his own less academic theory of the immortality of the knuckleball arm. The abuse of Marshall wasn’t at all like Alston’s abuse of Koufax. To add to KalineCountry’s good comment, as a resident of the Detroit area in Hiller’s years, part of the… Read more »

Brandon

12 years ago

As stated Hiller did just pitch once in the postseason in the 70’s. But don’t forget he pitched twice in the ’68 World Series. He pitched two scoreless innings to finish up a 7-3 loss in Game 3. “Ratso” again appeared in Game 4, but failed to retire a batter and allowed four runs, three earned as the Tigers were blown out 10-1.

Doug

12 years ago

Pitchers with saves in 75% of appearances, since 1961. Minimum 15 saves and 40 games, 80% in relief. Showing saves and save rate. Francisco Rodriguez, 62, 0.816, 2008, LAA Lee Smith, 33, 0.805, 1994, BAL Trevor Hoffman, 53, 0.803, 1998, SDP Mike Williams, 46, 0.780, 2002, PIT Bryan Harvey, 45, 0.763, 1993, FLA Dennis Eckersley, 48, 0.762, 1990, OAK J.J. Putz, 45, 0.750, 2011, ARI Dennis Eckersley, 45, 0.750, 1988, OAK Pitchers with decisions in one-third of appearances, since 1961. Minimum 15 saves and 40 games, 80% in relief. Showing saves, W-L, and decision rate. NOTE: All seasons shows had… Read more »

Doug

12 years ago

The last pitcher (starter or reliever) to record a decision in every game pitched (min. 25 games) was Lum Harris, who went 11-15 for the 1942 Athletics. Since then, these guys have had only a single appearance where they did not record a decision. John Smiley, 1997, CLE-CIN, 11-14 Kirk McCaskill, 1991, CAL, 10-19 Greg Swindell, 1988, CLE, 18-14 Ron Guidry, 1983, NYY, 21-9 Larry Dierker, 1976, HOU, 13-14 Steve Rogers, 1974, MON, 15-22 Gaylord Perry, 1972, CLE, 24-16 Denny McLain, 1971, WSA, 10-22 Camilo Pascual, 1963, MIN, 21-9 Duane Pillette, 1954, BAL, 10-14 Ned Garver, 1951, SLB, 20-12 Eddie… Read more »

Richard Chester

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

If you lower the threshold to a minimum of 20 games Ted Lyons had 20 games and 20 decisions also in 1942. He started and completed all of those games making him the last player to have done that (minimum of 20 games).

Hartvig

12 years ago

Reply to Richard Chester

Good ole’ Sunday Teddy Lyons- one of the more unique career paths in the game. Arm trouble in 1931 changed him to a control pitcher & he seemed to lose a lot of effectiveness the next couple of years. Then they somehow hit on the idea of starting him only on Sundays- partly because of doubleheaders and partly because he would draw big crowds- and his effectiveness returned. The odd part is, even with his arm problems, he still continued to complete the vast majority of his games- which is pretty much the polar opposite of what they would do… Read more »

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Looks like Teddy specialized in summer Sundays, at least in 1942. All of his Sunday starts came between May 17 and Aug 30. He had only one start in that period (Aug 4) that wasn’t on a Sunday. Lyons also had decisions in every appearance in 1935 (15-8), and 1941 (12-10), and had no more than 3 games without a decision every year from 1935 to 1942. Lyons was out of the majors for 3 years in WWII, serving despite being in his forties. Nevertheless, he returned in 1946 at age 45 and was still pitching effectively (5 CG in… Read more »

kds

12 years ago

Reply to Hartvig

Today you couldn’t do that because it would mess up your rotation, making it harder to start every 5 days. In his time with all the doubleheaders it actually helped keep the other starters on a more regular schedule.

Andy R

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

Perry’s 1972 season was different- 40 starts, 40 decisions, and a save in his only relief appearance- pitchers sure were treated differently years ago…

bluejaysstatsgeek

12 years ago

Here’s a trivia factoid: Besides both being Canadians and pitchers in MLB, what else links John Hiller and Ferguson Jenkins? There were AL Comeback Player of the Year in consecutive years, 1973 and 1974.

(They probably also both held team records of some sort, but I’m just trying to do a bit of (very un-Canadian) flag-waving!)

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to bluejaysstatsgeek

Another connection is this game from Apr 22, 1978. Jenkins and Hiller, both appearing in relief, duelled each other into extra innings, with Hiller prevailing.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/DET/DET197804220.shtml

A sign that this game was from another time is that Jenkins was still in the game after loading the bases with one out in the 10th, in his fourth inning of relief. This was the last of Jenkins’ four straight relief outings to start the ’78 season. He made 30 starts the rest of the way.

bluejaysstatsgeek

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

Thanks, that’s neat to know.

Doug

12 years ago

Reply to bluejaysstatsgeek

Here’s another cool matchup of Jenkins and Hiller, from June 17, 1974.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX197406170.shtml

– Tigers had the better of Jenkins, leading 4-0 going into the home 9th
– In the 9th, the Rangers got a 3-run HR by Fregosi off starter Woody Fryman, and then a solo HR off Hiller to tie the game.
– Tigers came back with a 2-run HR by Kaline (in his final season) off Jenkins in the 10th, and Hiller held onto to that lead for the win.

Author

John Autin

12 years ago

Reply to Doug

Wow — after that game, Fergie was 7-8, 3.83. The rest of the way, he went 18-4, 2.17, with 17 CG in 24 GS.

Stu

12 years ago

Reply to John Autin

John,
Thanks for the cool info. I actually pitched against Jon Hiller in the Wichigan league in 1984. I was 22. Quinnesec (us) vs. Felch. At the time, I didn’t even know who he was. We actally won the game. Now I need some grandkids to tell the story.
Stu

Tmckelv

12 years ago

I always knew Hiller was really good, but just how much better his numbers were than other relievers of the era is surprising. But not shocking.

The most shocking stat of this post is Tom Hall’s K rate/total K’s on the last 2 tables above. I guess I remembered him more from his Mets days, but he had great years in the early 1970’s with the Big Red Machine.

Steven

12 years ago

Reply to Tmckelv

I remember Hall as that skinny Red. He only weighed about 150 pounds.

Lee Panas

12 years ago

Excellent article. I wish I had written it. As a long-time Tigers fan, I remember him well. I knew he was very good, but your research shows he may have been even better than I remember.

Of course, it’s hard to compare relievers over eras because of their changing roles. I love the way relievers were used back in those days. I think teams got more value out of them than they do today.